i like 'em both
You know, Lloyd gets a lot of flack for his last few years, and probably a lot of it rightly so, but what he did for the program was...well, tremendous. It's lovely to see those numbers out there again, and to see a man who so boosted the program both on and off the field be rightfully recognized. Go Blue, and thanks, Coach Carr.
May the Mighty Hoke follow in your footsteps.
he sabotaged RR to get one of his guys as HC. Lame.
Your history shows it. Every comment you have is negative. You call out other members. You claim annoying memes when they are actually just clarifications. You bad mouth Lloyd Carr numerous times in a thread about him going to the HOF. You are not about being realistic, you are not trying to be down to earth, you are not bring a new point of view or adding anything meaningful. You are about instigating with a bunch of BS and negative crap. You are just a troll and that's it.
You say Lloyd sabotaged the program by staying silent. Lloyd turned over the program to RR and thought it was best for him, RR, and the program to not speak up about a lot of things. Did Lloyd want someone that he worked with and he was loyal to to head the program? I bet so. I bet most of us would in that position. Did he speak whenever he could to a media that he hated speaking to when he was a coach to "support" the program? No, as most of us wouldn't if we were in similar shoes. But every time he was asked he supported Michigan, which in the end was all the support RR needed from Lloyd. And he always supported his players. And he did great things as a coach, and he has continued to do great things for U of M and Motts, etc.
It wasn't Lloyd that sabotaged the program. A lot of it RR put on himself. Much of it, to be honost, is the fans fault. But the only reason the fans were angry is because RR failed to get victories. It is a big cycle of unbeneficial behavior, none of which has to do with Lloyd.
I know you claim Lloyd just hated RR and wanted the program to die because of the RR hire, but that isn't the case. If Lloyd was only loyal to his assistants and stuff, then he probably would have not been at RR hire press conference and would have been at Hoke's, aka, one of his assistants.
Lloyd Carr loves Michigan, he loves the program and the players. He also doesn't like the spot light. He also doesn't want to make the program about him. The program is under a new head, and he understands and respects that. He understands that the program is bigger than him. He didn't sabotage the program. RR didn't sabotage the program. Both wanted what was best for the program and they did that the best way they could. One succeeded, one didn't as much, but both wanted it.
It's you that needs to check yourself.
as a Lloyd-lover and a person who really really wanted RR to succeed (and was angry at how the transition went down), I stand in the middle here. As I've said elsewhere, being ambivalent is not evidence. I don't see it as impossible that he torpedoed Rich, but from what I've seen over several years, no court even hears your case. Time to put up or shut up.
He sad as much and got tired of asking the same old question. He not only didn't like the media, he didn't want the spotlight because he respected the fact that it wasn't his program anymore, it was RR's.
Also, I don't like your POV. But I explained why me not liking your POV doesn't make you a troll. The way you go about saying the things you say makes you a troll. I say lots of contrary things around here, but there is a difference between that and trolling. People are open to contrary things, not what you do.
When he has, he has always been supportive of the coach and the program. Usually when he has, it has also been with the main purpose to put the word out for Motts. He understands some other questions will be asked in order for him to get out what he wants to get out, and he has always answered those questions with support. Not wanting to have to rephrase and continue repeating himself in his support is a valid reason to say "let's move on" because, besides it being annoying for him, he also has more important things to talk about.
I'm done responding to your posts on this thread now, because stupidly, I am only feeding a troll. I think there is a fair amount of agreement as to what is considered trolling around here and I've said what I feel I've had to say. Instead of proving to be anything better than a troll, you have continued to attack other members of the board, continued to try to emphasize how your opinion and subjectivity is superior to others around here, and hinted at the fact that you are the only one who is capable of individual thought.
You have done nothing more than go by your gut feeling and complete rumor that Carr tried to submarine the program. You have made no valid arguments other than justifying what you've said based on things that can be seen as otherwise. When video evidence is shown, you quickly try to twist others words to ruin their credibility by saying things such as "but I thought Carr took a vow never to speak to the media again." That's not debating. That is you trying to twist people words and never bringing up any evidence of your argument because it has no validity.
Carr earned blame for his bad years in 2005 and 2007, justifiably.
But this retroactive attempt to blame Carr for the struggles of Rodriguez is absurd. I supported both - I wrote for a website that vehemently defended Rodriguez.
But let's be clear: Rodriguez is not coach anymore because he failed tongued a defense. Because he inherited 9 returning starters from a top 30 defense (what we were in 2007), and drove them to 70th in one year. Because he visibly undermined a coach who has since been validated as good, and replaced him with a gross incompetent.
You and others like the esteemed Tater can post and post about back-room politics and press statements made or not made, but Lloyd didn't do a thing to destroy that defense - and that defense, and the losses it produced in 2009 and 2010, are why Rodriguez is no longer coach.
That is a fucking fact.
By "lack of luster", you must mean the 3 BCS games in his final 6 years. Embarrassing, that.
He lost his final four matchups to OSU - a team we've since learned probably wasn't on the up and up.
As for your allegation that he was anti-Rodriguez, you are looking at a vacuum of evidence, and attempting to say it means something, no matter how many "dots" you insist you see in the abyss.
As for you being a wrestling heel, that's precisely what you're doing. Responding to six comments in this thread - with the same horseshit, then turning with this po-faced "what'd I do?" - please. Your actios here, and on this board in general make your priorities clear. I'm sure you're enjoying this.
Given the "facts" and "evidence" you've marshalled to paint Carr as a conspirator, you referring to anything as "wishy-washy" is the height of a lack of self-awareness, or, more likely, just extremely disingenuous.
At least there's a shred of evidence to support my point. All you do is reply to video clips with "he didn't mean that".
Oh, and no, not the coverup. I'm referring to the somewhat long history of players getting 1 year test-drives on Fords.
You're shifting the goalposts. Did I argue, ever, that he coached well in 2004 or 2006 OSU? That has nothing to do with a thing I said.
You think his results tarnished the program. I pointed out 3 BCS games in his final 6 years (a good rate). You refused to address that.
You allege that he was an anti-Rodriguez conspirator. I point out that you haven't had a shred of evidence to support this - only fewer public statements than you deem satisfying. Again, no response to this.
Now what do we get? Tress out-coached him twice? You're a drowning man clutching at driftwood.
I have no problem admitting that. The only reason I haven't is because this is the first fucking time you SAID that. You started out this thread discussing his character and how he tarnished Michigan football.
The character part is baseless, and I guess you and I disagree on whether the four losses to OSU (despite 2 BCS appearances in the time) tarnished Michigan football.
You're holding him responsible for three games he didn't coach.
The fact that OSU wins on cruise control isn't on him.
When did I insist it's not a big deal? I don't think it's worth tarring his character over and making up bullshit conspiracy theories over.
You need to stop typing.
Yeah, Lloyd Carr is a real asshole. Got a floor named after him at a children's hospital due to his selfless commitment to that place. Real jerk. Mobilized hundreds of his players to support a cause bigger than themselves, so much that they're still invested years after leaving U-M. But a real asshole. Brought the only national championship to U-M in most of our lifetimes. Doesn't give a shit about the school, though.
Look, Lloyd Carr is a great man, coach, and scholar who has done more for the University of Michigan than almost anyone alive right now, and certainly more than any football coach alive right now. I'm sure he'll have a hard time getting over the fact that you'll never forgive him for not breaking with his lifelong habit of avoiding the media in order to . . . do what again?
are the assholes:
Why do the Sparties believe they are entitled to comment? Next time they get a coach into the HOF, they can be heard.
Hint: it won't be Dantonio.
it is odd that RCMB feels the need to have a thread dedicated to the Lloyd Carr induction. I cannot imagine one here for George Perles if the tables were turned.
Did Lloyd force him to take a top 30 defense, returning 9 starters, to 70th in one year? To visibly undermine his DC? To replace that DC with a gross incompetent?
Rodriguez's "defense" is why he's not the coach. Carr had nothing to do with that.
I wasn't a Michigan fan until his last few years.
Sucks to be me!
Just the football.
Edit: Beat to it.
If Cooper got in, his tormenter obviously belongs.
Just because I like to see it in writing:
122-40 overall record.
81-23 in the conference.
Never missed a bowl game.
Won a national championship.
Won five conference titles.
Lightning Rod for criticism for tinfoil hat wearing idiots who see conspiracy where rational people see a man who retired.
Please ban this POS. If you can't be respectful of a hall of fame induction for a great figure in the history of U-M sports, then you really need to get the hell out of here.
There's a difference between pointing out a mixed legacy and being a troll. Pointing out a mixed legacy sounds respectful, especially when considering it's a thread about Lloyd going to the HOF. It means saying he did some really great things, but also had some shortcomings. I don't think there are many people claiming Lloyd was a perfect coach, including me, someone who has always supported Coach Carr.
What you're doing isn't pointing to a mixed legacy. What you're doing is spinning a positive thread negatively to get people angry. You are trolling. You are making it sound as if Carr was terrible for the program, was a terrible coach, etc., which is far from the truth.
You can debate how he handled the RR hire. You can debate his degree of success toward the end of his tenure. But he was successful, and he has always been a great ambassodor for Michigan and its football program.
Your comments are just trolling, and trolls should be banned. Your history shows the same type of trolling. I feel I have been an objective poster, and my history shows as much. But there's a big difference between being objective and what you're doing. Most of us are up for even-minded thinking, pointing out a mixed legacy, or being respectfully of the other opinion. You have proven to do none of those. You have only proven to be a troll.
IS what rational posters, who like a board without trolling, do.
You have yet to utter a single fact.
Since I accued you of not posting a fact, yes. You began this thread labeling Carr a conspirator and assassinating his character, which you now seem loathe to address.
This argument has lost it's point - you're being fundamentally dishonest and continually transmogrified your argument.
I have defended Lloyd's record (on and off the field) on here every chance I got, and will continue to do so. I was very hopeful for RR and was behind him to the end. Lloyd was just a convenient scapegoat for RR's difficulties.
Lloyd carried the torch honorably for many years and kept the program at a respectably high level. His 2006 team was fantastic...lost to OSU by three on the road and a very good team in the Rose Bowl. It was a hell of a ride though.
One or two hiesman winners? I forget if Desmond finished under Lloyd or Moeller. Not to mention all the community stuff, graduating his players, molding teens into men. Thanks for everything, Lloyd. Congrats and all the best...you deserve it.
Regardless of all the what-not before and after his career, this guy ruled, personally and professionally. Good on ya, Coach Carr.
I grew up as a Michigan fan during the Lloyd era; I can't think of a better representative for what's right about college football.
Lloyd Carr was about integrity.
I just re-tweeted this video and made it my facebook status.
That locker room speech is great. Just like Hoke said in his introductory experience, the head coach's job is to breed Michigan men, and Lloyd accomplished that.
After watching Lloyd's last game and then the speech there after, I admit that I cried pretty hard. If you have to compare it to something, it's kind of like watching a girl cry after watching the ending to the Notebook or the Lion King.
thanks for posting this. How any so-called Michigan fan could not respect this man is beyond me. I support coach Hoke just as I supported Rodriguez, Carr, Moeller, and Bo before him. Lloyd deserves our respect and he will always have mine.
I am not sure that coach Carr has a record or resume that supports Hall of Fame status, but even if he does not, he is the type of role model that is lacking in todays' game. I remember Carr's later years when heat built because he was falling short against OSU. It is truly a shame that we (myself included) placed more emphasis on victories than running a solid program, turning boys into men. In his interviews, I always got the impression that he knew that football was about the student athletes and not the fans. We make it about us. At the end of it the day, it's about a bunch of kids running around with a ball of leather.
Barry Alvarez just got in and his record is not as good. Of course Barry was at Wisconsin, but still Carr deserves it.
BARRY ALVAREZ – Wisconsin (1990-2005)
After learning a bit more each passing week about "the Senator" and the environment against which Carr was competing on the field and in recruiting it makes one wonder how things might have gone had the competition been level.
I, for one, am truly glad the Lloyd is in the Hall of Fame and Tressel, because of his dishonesty and cheating, will likely never enter. Karma is a bitch like that.
I guess that one of the main thrusts here is that it's not about the record. Carr could've went .500 and I think proved this point far better.
I do not believe there is anyone out there that is more deserving than Lloyd Carr. Congratulations Coach.
If Lloyd Carr were the standard, there would be significantly fewer coaches in the HOF.
No question, Jim, Lloyd Carr is having a tremendous spring. I think he's going to be a real special player for our team this season, and beyond that, he's just an outstanding young man. Did you know he writes poetry? He was just in my office the other day...
Oh, wait, what are we talking about?
well deserved he did it right
If the NCAA doesn't put their foot down, he could someday end up next to Sweatervest. They'd better. Coach Carr deserves so much better than that.
Remember when going 8-4 was considered a bad year? That was the reality when Lloyd Carr was our coach. Last year we were happy to get to seven wins. There is nothing wrong with wanting the perfection that we experienced in the national championship year but we didn't always do a good job of appreciating what we had-a clean, winning program that turned out outstanding young men. I am not a RR basher but we have to return to some of the glory we experienced under Lloyd.
I was a freshman Carr's last season, and just happened to run into him at the corner of state and packard one day on my way to the gym. Anyways, being the feable minded freshman that I was, I could only come up with saying, "go blue" with an awkward smile. Nonetheless, Carr responded with an enthusiastic, "go blue back" like only a father/grandpa could, and gave me that million dollar grin.
Long story short: Carr is like that favorite grandpa you always wanted to be around as a kid.