in town for free camps
Let's look at Michigan's OL recruiting from '09-'11 and discuss diabetes with owls
I agree that the recruiting was down and O-Linemen should not be depended on until they are redshirt sophomores. However there are ways to help a bad o-line, if the CB is playing off the receiver audible and throw a bullet to the outside. The last thing you want to do is make the o-line block for long periods of time, so don't run play action pass with deep routes.
MSU takes away short stuff though, basically saying, "Go long if you can." I was frustrated that Borges didn't take short yards with short passes against PSU, but MSU doesn't make that an option.
They played off Gallon all day at least make the pass a couple times to get them thinking, plus where were the short slants to the middle? That is where all the blitzes came from, Funch on a slant route was there to. What killed this team was Al calling play action time and time again.
How about those quick pop passes that Funchess dropped two of and Gardner missed one or two as well.
Not "defending" Borges, but when your line can't block and you receivers can't catch.... Makes for a rough day for anyone
is designed to take away the slants and routes over the short middle. Their LBs play run first, and then inside out on pass coverage.
The holes in MSU's D are deep (especially the deep middle) and short outs. These are exactly the routes Borges called.
Play action is important, even if the running game sucks. This is especially true against a team like State where the LBs are super aggressive in their run reads. This helps keep the LBs close to the line and the Safeties up which opens up the deep passes Michigan had success with. Ignoring play action and just lining up in the gun with 5 wide every time tells the D that you're passing. This makes Gardner's job that much more difficult because now the LBs don't worry about a run read and can just play inside out and the Safeties are back 10-12 yards taking away the deep stuff.
on one of the sacks of Gardner, i think the third or fourth. There where 3 michigan WR lined to the right of Gardner and 2 MSU DB's. Pressure came up the middle kind of fast but Gardner would had time to make the throw. Some of those sacks where due to Gardner holding the ball too long plain and simple. Yea the O line played poorly but it was the entire offense. Gardner held the ball to long and was off on some throws, the WR's dropped catchable balls and Fitz had issues not only running the ball but blocking too. You can blame who you want and you'ld prolly be right because everyone played like crap today....... hey maybe we have a sign we take to road games like ND has at home.
There is a reason Hoke signed 6 OL in one class.
There isn't 1 spot on that line that is set in stone for next year which is scary.
Just for giggles I looked at Alabama is the same time frame of the RichRod classes. They took 7 OL in 2009. Since then theyve alternated between taking 3 and 4 OL per class.
But but but...it's the coaches, fire Borges, fire Funk, fire Hoke rabble, rabble...
Our recruiting of OL 2009-2011
Analysis: Way too few guys, especially when one of them is on our defensive line right now.
Analysis: RichRod fucked up. Big time. Pace didn't play a snap for the team outside of practice, eventally getting a career ending injury. This is the class I point to in general for a lot of our problems, since only 9 guys out of a class of 27 are still in the program.
Analysis: Good God the minimal OL continues. Posada hardly even practiced before he decided football wasn't for him. Bryant would be, and still could be, a very good guard for us. But his knee and shoulder need to be 100% first.
So in three classes we recruited 6 offensive linemen. One plays on defense now, one quit football, and another got a career ending injury. After this year, we will have one OL lineman left from three classes. That, my fellow Wolverine fans, is absolutely unacceptable.
Now, look at OL recruiting 2012-now
Jon Runyan Jr.
So in 2013 alone we got as many guys for the OL than RichRod did in three years. So yeah, I am willing to cut a break on OL play here because the depth overall is pretty laughable, especially when, no matter how talented and highly regarded, it is generally viewed that OL don't/shouldn't see the field until they're at least a RS Sophomore. That means currently we have Bryant, Lewan, Schofield, Glassgow. That's. It. People are tending to shit all over Kalis, but remember he's a RS Frosh. As Brian said on a pod cast once, OL recruit rating is almost like a crap shoot. I have full confidence though that Kalis will pull through and become a good to great OL for the team over the next three years.
Also Pace was supposed to be quite a find at the Center position. Kinda hurts even more.
I blame the inability to land a better class squarely on the shoulders of that sorry excuse for journalistic integrity.
However, it's Coach Rod's fault for not getting the depth numbers right.
Yeah, Michigan Basketball was TERRIBLE in the early 90s. I mean, they don't have a single banner in the rafters at
Unless you're implying that a coach who's successful with another coach's players makes them more prone to looking the other way toward NCAA violations. Which, uh, okay.
You're blaming Carr for our 2009, 2010 and 2011 OL recruiting?
It's not like we signed 6 QBs a year under RichRod. There were spots available for OL if we wanted to recruit more of them. I don't think we ever even had 85 scholarship guys in his tenure.
Time to come into the dugout from left field. What does Carr have to do wtih RR's failure to understand recruiting? And to recruit depth Much less any linemen? Moreover, Carr did not leave the cupboard empty. In fact, the class that RR inherited from Carr makes the current situation makes it look like RR inherited an all big 10 lineup head to tail.
but it's hard to see how he could have improved on Coach Hoke's first year here had he been given another year. The improvement in the defense alone justified the move as far as I was concerned. I think he would have improved on his previous year but the progress was way too slow and the ceiling looking way too low. Certainly Coach Rod's situation could have been better but he ultimately he was his worst enemy by not improving well enough or fast enough.
Cupboard empty? Brandon graham was a 5 star Lloyd got. Ryan mallet would have been a star for Lloyd. RR's best receiver was jr Hemingway, who Lloyd pulled. Carr didn't leave it empty, just had a completely different set if players. That's not on Carr
2008 team was stacked with talent you're nuts. There was Graham and some decent players. But there weren't 11 scholarship level players on either side of the ball. After you get about 5-6 players deep there was a cliff of talent drop.
I went to the 2007 spring game where Henne/Hart/Crable did not play and there was no one. The physical difference between the star level players and the reserves made it look like I was standing out there by Crable.
Ok, I never said the teams were stacked. There's a big difference between stacked and bare. The 2005 class had one 5 star and about 10 4 stars - the 2006 recruiting class had 2 five stars and about ten 4 stars. 2007 was a little weak with two 5 stars and about five 4 stars. We would be perfectly content if not ecstatic about 2005 and 2006 numbers nowadays. I'm not saying these teams were stacked, but its not like there were just a bunch of 2 stars like you're implying. A lot of these players left or, more likely, were far les useful in the spread system. But thats different than Lloyd "leaving the cupboard bare". If, for example, we got Les Miles in 2008, I bet he comes in and we go 8-4 in a rebuilding year. We would have had a young but talented QB (Mallet) behind a line anchored by Schilling and Boren. There would be no talk of the cupboard being bare. RR however needed a completely different set of players. I don't think its any sign of RR not developing guys at all. I'm just saying Lloyd could have pulled in a Nick Saban-esque class of manballers and it just would have been similar results. I just think the Lloyd left the cupborad bare argument is way overblown at best, downright wrong at worst. He left the cupboard with what probably could have been a weaker but solid team for his system
In a class of 27 with that few linemen signed this is somehow a "luxury" because it's Lloyd's fault on depth?
Come on man.
Another lucid, logical post. Ban him and grab your pitchfork!
most of the board so quickly ignores. Thanks for posting and having reasonable expectations!.
Can we institute a new rule that anyone wishing to ridicule Hoke, Funk, or Borges must first read the OP and your post? It just seems . . so simple. Yet people want people fired because they don't want to think about the issues, and how turrible a state Rodriguez left us in.
Oh believe me I was one of them during the game. I had to back away, take a breathe and do some research though before I was going to continue. Good God that 2010 class is screwing us.
Everyone was quick to pile on the praise for how great Hoke was in his first year....but then 2 years later and people want to say that we are only bad because of RichRod....What gives?
Well, the truly amazing thing about his first year was the Lazarus-like resurrection of our defense. Coach Rod was never going to do that. So, Coach Hoke gets a lot of credit, and he deserves it.
As for now, I don't think anyone is blaming Coach Rod for everything. But there IS a missing class of offensive lineman bookended by classes of 2 and 2. This IS Coach Rod's fault, as Brady would have broken NCAA rules had he recruited for Michigan in 2008-2010. It happens that this is our team's biggest problem. But no one blames any defensive problems on Coach Rod, nor do they blame them for other things like Funk and Borges.
To me it's about missed assignments and bad blocking schemes, forced myself to rewatch that and and msu was blitzing and double twisting a lot and our guys looked confused and the result were a lot of free rushers. And I also noticed a lot of responsibility to block the defensive end was on toussaint which is a huge mismatch. I'm not sure why a block scheme would have the tackle defer the end to the rb. Our pass plays also take a long time to develop Gardner could barely get his three step drop before getting pressure. Not good to call deep throws with a lot of blitzes.
This right here. The long passes worked unless MSU brought pressure and then the OL and RBs could not pick up the blitzes. They are young but they did not look prepared.
The gameplan should have had a lot more short and underneath stuff. I would have loved to see 2-backs out of the pistol or shotgun with some block-release or option plays. You can't just isolate a shaky interior OL against a defense that is almost wholly defined by blitzing up the middle.
Those things that Sparty D is schemed to prevent?
I got sucked into a back-and-forth on the 247 site with a contrarian/troll poster after I had the gall to suggest that Michigan wasn't an elite team and wouldn't be for a few years - even IF they went 11-1 or 12-0 this year. This was solely based on the fact that you need both talent AND depth/experience to truly be an elite team. O-line is the most glaring example but you also see it at TE, DL, DB, and WR. With the recruiting success M is having all but OL should be close by 2014 but I fear that OL won't be squared away until 2015. This is not to say I don't have some issues with the Offensive scheme/playcalling, but the OL (and WR) limitations play a major factor. Last year's OL was arguably less talented but the experience made it (slightly) better than what we see this year. (sorry paragraphs not working for me either tonight.)
this team is two years away from dominance. i was curious if a 'switch' was waiting to be flipped yet apparently there is no switch. assuming recruiting doesn't drop off and we close the way expected (hand/mcdowell)...
2015 will likely see a team QB'd by Morris, with Green/Harris at RB, Drake/Campbell/Canteen/Funch at WR, and huge depth and experience on the OL. The defense will also have upgrades everywhere. ohio and msu will be at home, and a non-con sked of oregon state, utah, byu, and unlv seems pretty doable if we trend up.
i hate losing like everyone else here. seems like it's gut-check time. maybe borges has to go, i don't know or maybe the line comes together and we'll all be wondering why it didn't sooner. i dunno, yet i'm of the opinion to unite, support the team and coaches, and give hoke two years to have a full roster with the blue-chippers that are/have been joining.
While I agree we are trending upward, what makes us believe in the development. Throw out the recruiting stars, -48 rushing yards (yes I know, sacks) is inexcusable. All the talent in the world and we display that. Something had to change up front.
If there was such a situation, it would be only having 2 players with any starting experience on the OL. If something could have been done differently, maybe it was not getting Kalis, Magnuson, or Braden ANY experience last year - but that may have meant taking a further hit in our record.
I just caught part of the Cal-AZ game on the PAC-12 network and Cal has inserted 3 RS-Frosh or Frosh starters to bite-the-bullet for next year. Of course they are 1-7.......
Agree Randy. The post you responded to said 2015 will be dominant. Based on what? Recroooooting stars. There is no evidence at this point that this coaching staff will develop that talent. People who think suddenly in April 2015 there will be a switch and suddenly all these underclassmen turn into upperclassmen and UM turns into OSU on a dime are taking a massive leap of faith. There is a distinct lack of progres among many players and that is coaching at the position level. Maybe everything turns on a dime suddenly in 18 months but to believe that blindly based on RECROOOOOTING STARS is a major leap of faith.
Have you watched this team this season? They are awful and there has been no improvement . Coach them up. Other coaches get more out of their players with less talent. We are trending down. At this point I do not have confidence that the o-line will be better next year. That Gardner will be better next year, that the defensive front will actually be able to generate a rush. Give me some evidence that we are trending upward.
You need to put together a string of good years to call yourself "elite"
2006 and 2011 were the last two and now we are hoping for a good year in 2014.
Nope not elite anymore
Posada actually committed to RichRod
For a visual of what the Junior and Senior depth on OLine (and sadly elsewhere, too) looks like, take a look at the MGoBlog created chart: http://mgoblog.com/content/michigan-depth-chart-class-0
MICHIGAN FOOTBALL DEPTH BY CLASS 2013
|QB (3 + 1)||W. Speight (EE)||R. Bellomy*||D. Gardner*|
|RB (6 - 1)||J. Hayes*||T. Rawls||F. Toussaint*|
|FB (2 + 0)||
|WR (6 + 0)||A. Darboh|
|Slot (3 + 0)||F. Canteen (EE)||D. Jones||D. Norfleet||D. Dileo|
|TE (5 + 1)||I. Bunting||J. Paskorz*|
|OT (6 - 1)||Bushell-Beatty||
|OG (5 + 1)||
M. Cole (EE)
|C (3 + 0)||P. Kugler||
|DT (4 - 1)||J. Black|
|NT (4 - 0)||B. Mone (EE)||M. Hurst Jr.||O. Pipkins||R. Ash*|
|SDE (3 + 0)||K. Heitzman*|
|WDE (3 + 1)||L. Marshall||F. Clark|
|SLB (5 - 0)||C. Winovich||
|MLB (2 + 2)||J. Bolden||D. Morgan||
|WLB (3 + 1)||
|CB (9 + 1)||
B. Watson (EE)
|FS (4 - 1)||
|SS (2 - 0)||J. Wilson|
|P/K/LS (4 - 1)||
|Total (82 + 3)||15||39||18||13||12|
projected starters in bold, returning starters in italics.
I follow things pretty close but I am shocked by this. I admit it.
One of the things about charts that I wished more people appreciated is that they can say so much without really needing words. In this case, by eligibility as outlined here, you have on this offensive line:
Freshman - 10
Sophomore - 3
Junior - 1
Senior - 2
While I agree that we might not want to lean on the "youth" argument too much, there it is, I would say. You have "youth" and it cannot be ignored as an issue.
The most obvious answer tends to be the correct one...so youth it is.
So, we’re probably 2 years out form having a decent OL built from the existing players and incoming recruits...
The coaches need to seriously look at bringing in some JC or grad-transfer OL talent to shore things up & buy time for the youth to develop without getting their confidence blow to crap!
The argument against JC transfers has been that they tend to lose too many credits when transferring into Michigan. That would not be the case if they came from GRCC because ofThe MACRAO Transfer Agreement.
If we did find a couple gems-in-the-rough at GRCC, they would in effect replace a couple busts from the earlier classes & allow us to redshirt more of the incoming class.
It's easier for so many "fans" to just pile on Hoke/Borges/Funk about the O-Line underperforming versus a rational analysis of the "youth" being a problem.
Of course, now what I'm seeing is a bit of flip flop from those individuals when challenged with these sort of data points to "if they are so highly rated they should play better". Of course these are the same idiots who, in how many threads, repeatedly say "starzzzz don't matter...just wins".
At this point, regardless of the data points, I think there is a sectio of the fanbase...a truly trying and completely imbecilic section...that you just can't reach).
Lewan decided to stay when he saw this depth chart, lol. Wow
Nearly as big a hole as the other side.
I’m done with the ‘youth’ excuse. Michigan has been practicing for close to 13 weeks now and they still are not ‘targeting’ the right guy to block. Football isn’t that complicated where it should take 13 weeks to figure out who to block.
I really would like to know from those who think youth is the issue this year what was the main issue last year? Michigan started three redshirt seniors on the interior of the offensive line along with two redshirt juniors and still couldn’t do much of anything. Was that just talent?
It’s no coincidence the best coaches always seem to have the better players no matter how old they are.
Excellent Post, i totally agree, nothing else needs to be said. Just don't think the team is good.
The team is not very good. Part of the reason is because of the youth on the offensive line. Did you guys not watch the game last night? Any discussion not pertaining to the offensive line is just noise. It has been our Achilles heel all year.