2014 Southfield DE Lawrence Marshall just verballed to OSU per TOM VH
this week in unintentionally grim-sounding recruiting headlines
Oh this is not going well
Not good news at all
1. It shows that he's not a true Michigan Man if he can commit to Ohio this early in the process. (We don't want to spend a lot of our resources on a guy who doesn't want to be at Michigan).
2. It's not Malik McDowell --- But, we must make Malik McDowell a top priority at this point.
Kill the "True Michigan Man" bullshit. It makes you sound like an asshole.
Is what I'm telling myself.
I hate to say it, but meh. He kind of seemed like a secondary option behind McDowell and Hand.
McDowell will be a DT and Hand is a SDE. Marshall would've been a WDE.
McDowell could play either. Da'shawn Hand will no be recruited as a DE.
And odds are neither will play for Michigan.
Lay down Larry over here, we have a great shot at McDowell.
I know we have a good shot at both, but we're going to be going up against some strong competition for both of them. With Hand, its going to be tough to pry him away from Va. Tech let alone every top SEC school that's coming after him. And with McDowell...the history of top in-state DEs (Zettle '11, Gholston '10, Perry '08, Van Dyke '03) picking Michigan isn't good.
So to pull both, we're going to have an uphill battle.
You conveniently picked 3 recruits from the Rich Rod era and left out the likes of Brandon Graham, and Lamarr Woodley.
When will people get over Rich Rod? Never?? I wasn't conveiniently picking out recruits from the Rich Rod reign of terror. To make my point about Michigan recruiting high school DEs from the state of Michigan, I went by Rivals rankings of top DEs in the state of Michigan. Woodley and Graham were inside linebackers who grew into defensive end terrors while at Michigan. Nobody is forgetting about them.
Not everything is some sort of Rich Rod vendetta.
kinda like homeruns and steriods.
It is not a knock on RichRod to say that he didn't recruit the state that well; he didn't, he was focused on other states, and did well in those states...
I didn't immediately take offense at the general notion of "missed-out top recruits" during the Rich Rod era. By Rodriguez's own account, we missed out on 4-5 top recruits. Probably more (I'd definitely guess more), because of (a) the NCAA investigation and (b) the rumors of a Rodriguez firing, beginning in the 2009 season. It isn't a negative reflection on anything Rodriguez did or didn't do. It was the circumstances at the time.
Zettle: Definitely an RR casuatly, the defense was absolutely horrible when he was being recruited by UM.
Gholston: Lived with a pro-Sparty guy, UM never had a chance at him
Perry: Got paid by USC. I was a premium member at Scout.com at the time and he and his family definitely got "something extra."
Van Dyke: No idea, didn't follow recruiting at that point.
I don't expect UM to get Hand but they have a very good shot at McDowell.
We have a great shot at McDowell. We have very, very little shot at Hand. As of right now, Hand is a VTech/Bama battle with VTech as his leader. Everyone else is WAY back. Things can change, but people are getting their hopes up on him probably isn't wise.
He was also the more realistic option compared to Hand.
Wish him well, except against Michigan.
Wish him well, except against Michigan.
If he goes to Columbus, No.
I really don't understand the "wish him well" comment said over and over on this board. I don't really intend this to be a reply to you since you said unless he goes to Columbus but just did so to give my comment context (although he is going to Columbus so I'm not sure what you're saying either...anyways). Are we just in general saying that we hope the athlete is happy with his choice and generall has a positive college experience? If so, I'm OK with that. If however, we are wishing him a successful football career playing for our arch rival, well I don't share that sentiment. I do not wish any recruit, from Michigan or otherwise, to have a successfull playing career at our rivals. His success is OSU's success. And, I'm sorry, but you can't put success in a box like the whole logic of "I hope he does well, just not against us". If he plays well, he plays well, including against us. And, well...that's not good for us, duh. So, I don't wish him that. If he choses them I hope he's happy, I hope he has a good college experience, I hope he excels academically, but I also hope he winds up a complete bust on the field...sorry. But, I will wait until after he actually signs before I wish him anything in case he flips to us...so I haven't wished him anything yet fwiw.
A player could play well in general, but not play well against us. Off the top of my head with no fact checking Ron Dayne comes to mind.
That is something I'd expect to see on an OSU board when they lose a guy....
We probably weren't interested all that much either.
It looks like Urban has settled in and is getting his pick.
Michael Ferns sends his warmest regards.
Ferns committed on August 9th. That's before Urban had coached one game for osu. Thanks, though.
So you're saying that the offer that Urban has extended to Michael Ferns for a scholarship at tOSU is non-commitable?
I'm sure Ohio immediately stopped recruiting him following his August commitment.
He was going to flip Dymonte Thomas too, right? Guaranteed, I recall.
Reading through this thread you have told someone to stop trolling but why tell someone to stop doing something when you're doing just that? Don't put words in my mouth either. I guess that makes it easier to make your point.
Hoke and the staff had already developed relationships with these kids long before Urban became the coach. It makes it pretty hard to come in and establish that same rapport when someone else has a year head start, huh?
I just think the premise for your analysis is wrong. If disagreeing with you is trolling, I'll keep busy at it, I guess.
Long before Urban became coach his defensive coordinator Luke Fickell and his staff were developing a relationship with Michael Ferns and, like coaches from Stanford, Penn State, ND, Oklahoma had offered a scholarship.
The idea that Meyer was starting from square one with Ferns, given the existing tOSU offer, the coaching continuity and his multiple visits to Columbus doesn't make any sense.
Ramzy's acolytes can fill in the rest.
Fickell most certainly recruited Ferns but they went through their worst season as far back as I can remember and there was uncertainty with how well Urban would do and the punishment that came down from the NCAA, even though slight, probably affected a lot of recruits (Kalis). To think that those things didn't play a roll is being naive. Now that it's a level playing field Urban is showing that he is a much better recruiter than Hoke.
As a side note I think it's also important to know that while Hoke and company were in Virginia recruiting Urban and Coombs came to Michigan and saw Webb, Marshall, and Harris.
And I don't really care anymore.
what do we have for the 2014 recruiting class, 16 schollies available, 2 verbals so far --lb and qb , so 14 spots left ?
Expect around 20 after attrition.
I hate to say it but urban is probably going to out recruit hoke, he has got those 2 rings, doesn't mean we can't win and the talent disparity won't be huge but urban seems to be winning these battles early.
I agree with you. With Ohio State going 12-0 last season it just reiterates what kind of coach Urban is and he can sell kids on that. If you also factor in how Ohio has the best talent of any school in the mid west then they clearly are at an advantage.
Notre Dame can't be discounted either. Although they are a school that recruits more nationally and are on par with anyone in that regard they've always held that distinction in the mid west. Michigan is surely at a disadvantage compared to these two when it comes to recruiting. It's hard to be third but you need someone like Jim Harbaugh to maintain that recruiting dominance. Hoke will be fine but it will always be an uphill battle with Rose Bowl aspirations and nothing further.
Eh, I agree that OSU has a slight advantage right now with Meyer and his rings. ND will always do well and gets a bump from their MNC game appearance. But M is doing fine. If Hoke can win a B1G title and string together a few 10-win seasons, then M will have the advantage.
I really don't think it's accurate to say that M has only "Rose Bowl aspirations and nothing further" with Hoke.
I know most of us have seen the introductory presser and he only talks about B1G championships. When he addresses the players he asks how many B1G championships. Why no mention of MNCs? Things changed after the implementation of the BCS and now with a playoff they have changed yet again. B1G championships are great but what have they done for Wisconsin?
for a national title than you do if you fail to win the BTC. This is especially true with a conference championship game.
What you also fail to remember is that who participates in the championship game is largely determined off the field and not on it. Hoke is focusing on what he can control, not on what he cannot.
I get how the big ten championship is a window into anything else and that it's the only thing guaranteed in a world of fickle voters. But psychologically, those who shoot for the highest goal usually achieve higher if they fail than those who reach for an attainable, but lower goal.
Urban shooting for national championships is a higher vision than us shooting for big ten championships and that has an effect on the beliefs and vision of the players. I'm not saying that's all we're shooting for, but constantly talking about a big ten championship as though it is the pinnacle of college football that it may have been thirty years ago isnt enough.
The guys need the vision of being the best. There's a greater likelihood we'll achieve big ten championships if we have it, as well.
for now... Right now we are laying the groundwork of a dynasty, to talk about MNCs would be ridiculous. Now, win a couple big ten championships, bring in a nother couple top 10 classes and then we can talk MNCs as a goal.
Historically, Michigan has recruired every bit as well as ND and OSU. It was only until the latter years of the Carr Era that recruting slipped a bit, but even then Carr was still pulling in top 15 classes.
This bullshit about UM being third is complete nonsense. Michigan has landed back-to-back top 8 classes. At that level the talent differential is so infinitesmial that one would need a electron microscope to see the difference.
I have followed recruiting for 20 years. Even with Ohio's distinct advantage in being located in a football hotbed UM has consistently recruited just as well as Ohio. This is because of the depth of the talent in Ohio. Great ad merely good players will continue to leave Ohio. Besides UM, PSU, MSU, and ND have all gotten excellent players from Ohio. That isn't going to change now. UM also recruits nationally just like ND does. Derrick Green wasn't the first top flight player to come here from outside the region and he won't be the last.
Calm down. Michigan is doing just fine. Ohio and ND will get theirs, but so will Michigan.
Those back to back top 8 classes surely have something to do with Tat Gate and a coaching transition. Now that Urban has had one very successfull season behind him (just like Hoke had) we are seeing what he is really capable of. When is the last time Michigan went into Ohio State's feeder school (Glenville) and grabbed their best player? Don't get me wrong, the classes and players Hoke will pull in will be far and away better than what Carr could do near the end of his career and what Rich Rod could bring in, but I don't see top 10 classes being the norm with the coaches ND and OSU have in place.
I also think you have to keep in mind that these coaches are looking for different types of players right now. This is more reflected on offense, but defense also to a degree.
This is newb analysis of the worst kind. Note the small sample from the recruiting world below...
2002 - tOSU = 5; M = 16; ND = 24
2003 - tOSU = 41; M = 17; ND = 12
2004 - tOSU = 16; M = 8; ND = 91 (srsly)
2005 - tOSU = 12 ; M = 6; ND = 40
Now, how did Michigan make out against tOSU in those years?
I dislike Jim Tressel's ethics but I understand he got players he needed for his system and he made it work.
Your analysis is ridiculous.
Stop trolling on.
I said near the end of his career. You could say his last two or three. I didn't make that distinction but last two makes more sense so let's look at the 2006 and 2007 classes.
I didn't mention anything about how well Tressel or whoever was coaching ND at the time recruited so I don't know why you thought that was an important note to make. I'm talking about who is in place now. The attrition that took place was a huge problem along with the talent evaluation during those times.
I like how you only focused on part of my post rather than the entirety. Adding something about trolling also shows the immaturity of your post. I'm sorry you have to live in Canada and have the Grey Cup instead of the Super Bowl but please remove stick from ass.
I'll type it slowly.
Tressel was remarkably successful over that period and recruited with far less efficacy than Hoke in the current period.
He got players he needed...just like Hoke. Did just fine against Michigan (regrettably).
The correlation between Tressel's approach in that period vs. Carr and Hoke's current situation vs. Meyer is evident and easily applicable.
Perhaps conceptual thinking isn't your strong suit.
Warmest regards from Philly.
It sucks to be angry all the time doesn't it? Anyway, teams go after the best players. I don't really know what else to say. It's pretty simple. We'll see who is on top at the end of the recruiting cycle but we'll have to wait for that. We won't have to wait to find out that you're insufferable. We've known that for a long time now.
Hold the phone, and maybe this doesn't apply to you directly, but to the fanbase as an aggregate body:
You're saying that Tressel didn't just fine with second-rate recruiting against UM to draw parallels with Hoke. I get that, it's decent argument.
But then other UM fans will nod knowingly at you point, but turn around and say "Tressel only beat us because he was running a dirty program." I don't like Tressel, so we can have a rational discussion here, but the two can't be in conjunction. If he only won because he was a cheater, then your argument is deflated. If he won because he was a good coach and got the talent he needed despite it not being the best in country, then it's basically tacitly saying that the indescretions of the program didn't affect the product on the field at all
I'm not sure that the two things are entirely incongruent as it is not so much that Tressel's recruiting was "second rate" (there wasn't much difference between the teams in ranking in that time) but that he got the players he needed to succeed in his system. I do not like Tressel on an ethical level (see Smith, Troy or Clarett, Maurice etc.) but I respect that he knew what he wanted to do on the field, how he wanted his teams to play and the sort of talent he required in order to make that happen. I don't think the "indiscretions of the program" exclusively made the program a winner for the past decade ...you have to give some credit to Tressel, his staff and the players. That said, it was definitely a bonus that he got some compensated high performance players (Clarett comes to mind) and that kind of player put him in National title consideration etc.. Certainly, he does not beat 'the U', for example, without that sort of paid player.
In the current scenario, Hoke was outrecruited this past year by Meyer by any objective measure. The distance between the teams in terms of talent is not very significant, however and the players that Hoke is getting fit what he and Greg Mattison on defence and Al Borges on offense are looking for that fit their vision. This isn't the Sparty "coach em up" argument...Hoke is getting high four stars and so is Meyer...there is a small statistical variance between the programs and not all players are recruited by both programs so the comparison is skewed in some ways.
At the end of the day, Tressel did a very good to borderline exceptional job identifying the talent he needed for his systems and coaching them. The "indiscretions" of your program took what otherwise would have been a very good team (but one that would have lost more often...and to Michigan) and won a National Title with Clarett etc.
On the plus side we can agree we both don't like Tressel.