From the comments about GR3 and a lack of killer instinct I would say it is important on the court too
no, YOU'RE off topic
From the comments about GR3 and a lack of killer instinct I would say it is important on the court too
Here as an article which is from 08 because I can't find anything newer with enough schools to be meaningful. Draw what conclusions you will from the study.
In 08, Michigan was second on the list of the best programs, with an average SAT score of 997. That's right, 997. While things have changed undoubtedly since that study, I have no doubt the average SAT score for football programs is hundreds of points below the average for the undergraduate academic side of the University. I've seen fast facts and Michigan Almanac enough times to know we excel on test scores for incoming freshmen.
The double standard smacks you in the face, and hard. There are some pretty good schools in that study, and most of them do what Michigan seems to do, only worse. That is the world, for most instititutions, of big time sports programs.
While I thnk Foote might have chosen his words a bit differently, I think the handling of the Gibbons matter has been deplorable and I agree with him.
As for the ball players we are getting, if going to the ghetto means getting a few more Denard Robinsons or Jeremy Gallons or Vincent Smiths, that's fine with me. I think the jury is still out on Hoke's recruiting classes, and Nuss's hiring has calmed things down, but based on what I see in the way of player improvement over the course of Hoke's tenure, I'm not ready to discount Foote's words as being totally devoid of merit. Maybe when next season is over, I will feel differently.
First of all, he couldn't be more right about the Gibbons' situation. Give him credit there.
Far as the other comment, it's true and false. I don't think that it's as much about being from the "ghetto", though. It's more about kids who play with an edge, those kids just often come from disadvantaged situations. There are exceptions, though, kids like Aaron Craft play with an edge. You can find those kids anywhere, they can have a chip on their shoulder from being overlooked or having separated parents. Anything.
I do understand where the thought process comes from, though. I've coached AAU since 2010 and you could tell the difference in the way our kids played. Most of them were spoiled, great family situations. But we had two who were from the ghetto and used to not having anything. They were the hungry ones, the ones who played harder than you can imagine, diving on the floor, etc. However, that can be TAUGHT. We fed that to the whole team and today they all play that way. So I see why he says that, there's truth to it, but not 100%.
cite craft as a player who plays with a chip on his shoulder instead of using Burke. I think Dakich is getting to you
Haha I used Craft because I know generally people associate the ghetto/toughness with black players. I'm not a big fan of his game, though.
A friend of mine who listens to 97.1 and follows M football pretty closely thinks that Foote's opinion was a bit mis-represented in this article, FWIW.
It definitely was. The article and listening to him actually talk about it, its two completely different takes. I agreed with everything Larry said and the article makes it sound terrible.
Oh lord, I love Larry Foote, but that was absolutely the most #HotSportsTakes! drivel he could have spouted. Just ranting and complaining without any logic or coherence. Yes, all football players at UM aren't "violent enough" for his liking, the University definitely investigated Gibbons for 4 years while ignoring the AAPD, etc.
I know that former players are sometimes the best for discussing a program, but that doesn't give them a special right to their own facts about the current program. Hell, I'm a dumb guy on the internet and I think I have a better grasp on the program than half of these guys.
Wait, isn't this the same program that Jim Harbaugh poo-poo'd for funneling student athletes into classes like Introduction to Underwater Basketweaving? I didn't have a problem with what Larry said, but the more I thought about it, I was having a moment of cognitive dissonance.
Foote came from this envronment (was a marginal qualifer), and appreciated the chance he was given, so I understand where he's coming from. He's not saying we need to compromise on character, however. Look at Denard - like Foote, he's another UM success story, despite also not being a stellar HS student. So there's room to be more inclusive, but you've got to be balanced and vet the kids from tougher backgrouds out extremely well, both from the U's sake and thier own. The RR classes were attrition disasters - many of these kids couldn't assimilate into an academically-oriented campus culture. Hence, I don't see things changing, as Michigan's "brand" is trending more towards Ivy League/Stanford than the RichRod/Foote ideal.
I think a large reason the RR kids didn't work out was because he struggled and all of the concerns about his coaching security led to him (a) taking a couple of risky kids, and (b) lots of kids left the program when he was let go/looked like he was gone. I don't remember an obscenely large number just failing out, though I guess Tate was the major example. Of course, he seemed like a head case for many reasons.
Not saying they all failed academically, but they attrited to a degree we've never seen before. UM's student culture is one of serious academic interest. If a sports career is your plan A, B, and C, you're going to have a have hard time feeling comfortable amongst the general student population. Cissoko, C Christian, Tate, and others were more the rule for Rich Rod than Denard, who was one of the exceptions. It's a tough one, because you want to give those guys a decent chance and at the same time have to recognize what the odds are.
I'd only counter that some of those guys left not because of academic issues (Tate) but because of off-the-field (Cissoko) or apparently on-the-field (Cullen) as well as the madhouse this place was for a couple of years. A big reason people hadn't seen that attrition before was that UM had never really gone outside of its comfort zone hiring guys since maybe Bo, and that was a totally different era. Lots of schools have this type of turnover, and it is a minor miracle Hoke kept as many as he did, though I do think the leadership shown by guys like Denard, Lewan, Martin, etc. when Hoke took over was significantly better than that shown when RR took over, and that contributed to kids sticking around.
I do think RR had a bad habit of looking at recruits on the fringes like he did at WVU and not realize that UM didn't need/couldn't allow all of those close cases.
Whether it's a business culture or that of an athletic team, my personal experience is that you need common values and a common vision to unite. Regarding Michigan's student culture: smarter most all public U's, a little arrogant, nerdy, broad world view - athletes from tougher, impoverished areas can feel like outsiders at UM and that's not a recipe to keep kids on the team. Look at the transfers over the years and I surmise for every Gardner, Robinson, and Gallon who thankfully stayed, RR had a more than 1:1 ratio that didn't.
far to play football. He graduated from Michigan specifically to give himself, and his family, a Plan B. For every "look at" you can dig up, there is a Long, from the mean streets of Clarkston, Lewan and Roh, the slums of Scottsdale. Hutchinson, the ghettos of Coral Gables, where the median income is north of 70k.
Foote needs to remember to label beer, not people.
Sorry Larry. I don't thiink you get it.
A lot of NFL players have been giving their opinions of blunts lately.
Of course, when RR was here people were bitching about him recruiting marginal guys. Not sure it gets much more "ghetto" than Pahokee. And we weren't playing any better.
So I guess ou can't win.
on the Gibbons situation? It seems like comments here are about the recruiting opinion.
I'm curious what people think of his take on the Gibbons situation.
Seems as though he's looking at it in simplistic terms and isn't aware of the two standards employed and why they were emplyed at different times. The police case was about rape, and the U's case was about a lesser standard of misconduct. The sexual misconduct was clear: Gibbons, in his own words, took advantage of a girl who was "wasted." UM changed its policy based upon the new Fed directive. Once they changed their policy, they had to abide by it.
I'm sure I missed it, but I didn't ever hear it put this way.
A police report on the incident, names redacted, was published by Washtenaw Watchdog. Assuming Gibons is the guy in the report, he doesn't come off as a high-integrity Michgan Man by any stretch. In fact, just the opposite. I hope he turns his life around, but he rightly lost his privileges at the U.
One thing I will agree with is the fact we aren't playing physical enough. Those teams in the 90s played with reckless abandonment. The defenses had no fear. Linebackers would plow full speed into the hole the running was coming into. I haven't seen that brand of play since Carr retired.
Linebackers would plow head first...and then let the QB run right past them because no one taught them QBs were apparently allowed to run the ball as well.
Those defenses were fine when they played Wiscy or someone who just tried to run them over, but they were incredibly lost against mobile QBs. I was in those stands when guys like Jarious Jackson and Zak Kustok were carving them up.
"Fearless LB play" sounds great on a t-shirt, but I want them playing smart, heady football. Foote was great, but those Carr defenses weren't always world-beaters, and in today's game they would have been eaten alive. Hell, the couple of times they played a spead-type team they struggled mightly, and some of those were proto-spreads with mediocre players. OSU would have dropped 70 on them if they played today.
Jordan Kovacs is either laughing or crying.
I don't really think Larry Foote, an 11 year NFL veteran who has Super Bowl rings is all that concerned about an undrafted practice squad player who during Foote's time probably would've never started at safety for Michigan.
That's not a knock on Kovacs, that's just a fact that we're not as fast, physical or tough as Michigan used to be.
concern himself with. He didn't say we needed more Larry Foote's, I don't know that I would argue that. How many of those very players Foote would have Michigan recruit would kill for a locker in an NFL locker room? Kovacs has one. He also has this:
Kovacs was elected team captain. He was selected to the preseason watchlist for the Bronko Nagurski Trophy (best defensive player). Kovacs was a second team All-Big Ten selection by the coaches and an honorable mention selection by the media. On November 27, he was named a finalist for the Burlsworth Trophy. At the December 3 team banquet, Kovacs earned team MVP for the season. He earned Academic All-Big Ten recognition in 2012. Following the season, he participated in the February 2, 2013 Texas vs. the Nation All-Star Bowl.
I would take a team full of players like that each and every year, thank you very much.
Not to totally disagree with you, but all those awards still couldn't give him the speed to cover elite receivers. That's the difference Larry is talking about.
Well that doesn't seem like a lot to ask. I can't understand what the other 160+ comments are doing here. They must not all like fast guys.
Other than Cato June and (maybe) Curry, I don't remember a single safety from Foote's era being all that good. And I'd argue that Kovacs could have kept pace with Curry.
Kovacs proved he could play against good players in the B1G for 3+ years. I know people want to act like everyone was awesome back in the late 90's/early 00's, but I was at those games and I can tell you without reservation they weren't all awesome. And I'll say, just because he's a white dude doesn't immediately make him some dumpy, slow dude who gets by on gumption and sticktoitiveness. I mean, his Pro Day stats are perfectly acceptable.
Go read Foote's comments about the NFL draft being an indicator.He could cover "good players in the Big Ten......" is what you claim? The Big Ten has been a laughing stock for a decade now, and it really started with the demise of Michigan.
The South Carolina receivers torched us, as did the Alabama receivers. Kovacs being able to cover "Big Ten receivers" is nothing really to brag about.
I see his point. We love the swagger that players like Norfleet play with. But I don't see how we're recruiting any differently than we ever have. What is Foote's threshold on 'ghetto'? Does Peppers count? Gardner? Wilson?
Overall his theory doesn't add up. I could support the argument, but I'm on mobile and don't want to.
Just Go Blue, and win this season. So sick of the rabble that's starting to bubble up again.
Larry never said "Michigan needs to recruit from the ghetto." I listened to all 4 hours of the show. He never said that.
Agree that we want violent guys with swagger and an attitude about it. I am no fan of powder puff football and want guys who have swagger. Some who see this guys like this think they are being too tough or arrogant - but such people probably never played competitive sports in their lives and attended schools where hypersensitive parents and teachers banned kickball.
I disagree that with the premise that we cannot find guys tough and violent guys who are good academicallly. See Stanford, for example. If they can do it, so can we. Still, I think the university should open its doors to the "ghetto" a little more if in fact Foote is correct in saying that it doesn't.
I definitely understand what Larry is trying to say. I've always wondered how much of a difference having strict academic standards makes when it comes to recruiting against a school where minimum standards are accepted. I think exceptions should be made for athletes as long as once they maintain a certain gpa while at the school. Regardless of what Larry Foote says I'm of the belief that smart football players are a good commodity. What Michigan needs to do is recruit the skill positions in a manner that seeks players that are extremely athletic and competitive. I want the guys that hate losing even a coin flip. I love the character of the kids Brady has continued to bring in. I think this year is crucial to the full revival of the program at which time all the critics and doubters can suck itttt
It might be nice if more attention were given to those students who are named to Academic All-American and Academic All-District football teams, but that’s unlikely to happen; and no Michigan students received that honor this past season.
Of the 24 members of the 2013 District 5 Academic All-District team, there were nine from the Big Ten: three from Northwestern (RB Mike Trumpy - 3.53 GPA, Communication Studies and Sports Administration; OL Brandon Vitabile - 3.45 GPA, Economics; and LB Collin Ellis - 3.31 GPA, Learning and Organizational Change); two from Purdue (WR Shane Mikesky - 3.80 GPA, Movement & Sports Science; and OL Robert Kugler, Patrick’s older brother - 3.83 GPA, Political Science); two from Michigan State (LB Max Bullough - 3.56 GPA, Finance and P Matt Sadler - 3.97 GPA, Applied Engineering Sciences); plus Illinois QB Nathan Scheelhaase (3.38 GPA, Communications) and Indiana DB Mark Murphy (3.91 GPA, Informatics.)
IMHO it's not that we're too soft or too intelligent, it's that our older guys are not as talented and our younger more talented guys are...younger. Once our younger more talented guys become juniors and seniors I think our "toughness" will begin to show through experience. I see this beginning to change next season and continuing to do so for the next few seasons and then maintaining a quality level of wins, "toughness", etc. from then on out. I do agree every once in a while we may miss on a kid for academic reasons, but I don't see the coaches avoiding any major talent because they're too "ghetto". It's just that most of those kids are in the south and LA areas and we aren't recruiting nationally as well yet. I mean they aren't avoiding Detroit area kids, are they? National kids in LA and the South will come with more on-field success and as Hoke becomes more of a recognized name. But, Peppers, although really smart, comes from a "ghetto" area and is a huge national talent. So, I think we are growing in that regard, but it is a process and doesn't happen overnight.
to remind Larry that it's Duke not recruiting from the 'hood that led him to UM.
This is nonsense. Kids with speed, character and smarts come from all places. Yes, UM will not embrace kids like Standifer or Burbridge with spotty academic transcripts. But so what?
We've missed on Hand, McQuay, Isaac, Kozan and other recruits who would've made UM much better without lowering any standards.
when Larry was asked about the Spartans being better than UM he say's that will change in time. Then out of the other side of his mouth he says they need to lower admissions, what the hell. I know Harbaugh doesn't feel that way and I am tired of watching Northwestern guys learning their system overnight and giving UM all they want. There is a happy medium where UM can keep admission standards and get players who are tough, athletic and have goals to reach like playing in the NFL.
1+ to the poster above me
Taking the competitive aspects of this aside, I've long thought that schools just need to catch up with the modern entertainment and sports industry. Being a professional athlete is a well respected, and often high paying, career for many people in practically every part of the globe. The tools needed to be succesful in the football industry are clearly not the same as those needed to be successful as an educator, a nurse, an engineer or a scientist. The general admissions requirements are simply out of date with many modern careers.
If the world's most elite young director wants to pursue theatre at Michigan why do they need to be "OK" at math to do so?
If the world's most elite musician, the next Bach or Beethoven, wants to pursue music at Michigan why do they need to be "OK" at language arts to do so?
If the world's most elite athlete wants to study their natural field at Michigan why do they need to be "OK" at so many other things?
Forcing applicants to be well rounded really does mean you are turning away some genius talents. This isn't really targeted at any one school and it's not a change that's needed to be successful. A good program will succeed period. It's just something that comes to mind when I hear people tout the academic standards of Michigan... why? Maybe in order to be accepted to the Nursing School you should need a minimum 40 time and bench press score?
Kudos on the post. From what I understand, charter schools around the country are doing just that - picking what kids are good at / want to be and then tweak curriculum accordingly. This is a motto that seems to be gaining ground in the K to 12 range, but no really in our four year institutions.
I still think athletes need to be held to a high standard when applying to college but I agree that forcing engineers to take a foreign language or English lit majors to take high level math seems outdated.
College sports are about making money. Student athletes should be able to take courses that they find interesting along with a few basic requirements to serve them in life. Maybe there should be a class on how to manage an instant $20 mil, like they will get when drafted. Or maybe they should be taught social etiquette or public speaking.
I think we need to get with the times and begin to teach kids the way they learn, what they want, and try to make them successful without boxing them in.
i guess I'll clear the whole "ghetto" thing up. Since I am FROM the "ghetto" and have experienced things many of you couldn't fathom. Many of those experiences make you tougher, more aggresive in different facets of life.
It's a toughness thing. I will agree that it depends on the individual more than anything. However, you're more likely to find that type of tough, aggressive player in the "ghetto".
We just need to play with aggression.
in regard to who we should recruit. You are correct in your assessment of the SEC and a few other teams separating themselves from the pack, however, during some of our greatest seasons and throughout our most successful decade in fairly recent times, that being the 70s, of course, roster was filled with players named Cannovino, Mallory, Dufek, et. al. These players, although they do fall into your category of "non-NFL" talent, played with aggression and determination similar to the style you displayed during your time in AA. And just like you, although often times not as athletic, with the possible exception of our last "wolfman," Dufek they also played with tremendous discipline and it is my belief their intelligence played a large part in their effectiveness on the field by correctly reading their keys, maintaining their assignments and depending on the other ten to do their jobs. ^Furthermore, all one has to do is look at Stanford, which just happens to have admissions standards surpassing possibly every other major program and it's not difficult to realize you can field great teams filled with players possessing a combination of both superior intelligence and often times good to well above average athletic ability. ^ I am not certain I want to stray away from our long held tradition of higher than average academic standards Bo be represented on national TV by the two qbs that played in the BCS championship game of 2013, Neither displayed an ability to articulate above what one might expect from a high school junior. As proven under both Mo and Lloyd, we are capable of fielding great athletes with the standards that are in place. Afterall, it is not as if we are among the "elite" in terms of admission standards for our athletes, but it not uncommon for a Dhani Jones, Devin Gardner, and many others to opt for Michigan in large part because of the education the university offers. And the number 3 rated player in this year's incoming freshman, who may very well prove to be the actual number one is not shy about why he chose Michigan should all else fail. ^I will give you that the coaches should feel free to sign certain players whose high school transcripts might indicate an "academic risk," should they be satisfied that said transcript is not truly indicative of actual academic potential at Michigan. This is often times true and discovered throughout the recruiting process. There are many factors that come into play resulting in less than impressive academic achievement that become evident as the coaches go throughthe vetting process.
I don't understand what Foote is saying when he says recruits who have a "Plan B" are inherently inferior. What constitutes a legitimate Plan B? Is MSU a Plan B? Should we be chasing guys who are too "ghetto" or "violent" for Pat (60 minutes of unnecessary roughness) Narduzzi?
A plan B in this case is; ANOTHER way out. Take that player he's speaking of from the inner city and couple that with the fact that playing Collegiate ball may be his ONLY way OUT. He's going to play the game with so much passion and tenacity, because this is ALL he has.
Granted, recieving a degree from Michigan would suffice as a hell of a plan B. But we don't even give certain players the opportunity.
If there is such a family atmosphere at Michigan, why not take a chance on an "AT RISK" player, who meets the NCAA guidelines, but is a hell of a football player?
17-18 is still a child. Michigan's "family" atmosphere should be able to mold and groom the kid to be a better person. I mean isn't that the purpose of a family after all. To be a support system.
but maybe not, THIS IS MICHIGAN FERGODSAKES
I get what you're saying, and I definitely agree that at-risk kids deserve a chance to prove themselves. However, I don't agree with Foote's implicit claim that kids who have options other than a Michigan football scholarship will be less motivated to perfrom on the football field.
I also don't believe that Foote was referring to the fallback of a UM degree when he said "Plan B." It seemed to me he was referring to other schools who would offer scholarships without being as stringent as UM would be about meeting academic standards.
“You’re getting too many guys that have Plan B’s,” Foote added. “You want to build your team with guys that don’t have Plan B’s. Your best students are not your best players.”
"...desperate to succeed on the football field"
You may have read wrong. Seems to me he's speaking about academics and kids who play with a chip on the field; as I was referring to in my post. He refers to the kids in the inner city as desperate in comparison to those kids not from the inner city as having plan b's and being the best students. Plan B = guarenteed degree/success from already high academic showing = lack of motivation/toughness/agression/passion on the field. The player's mind is elsewhere. In his opinion.
With Foote going to a HS in my neighborhood, ironically, I think I have a full understanding of what he means.
He's saying we need some monsters, on the field, essentially lol.
I don't really agree with Foote about much in here, but I have often taken notice of the fact Michigan's recruits lately have been disproportionately from high SES-backgrounds. I think its a little ridiculous to say "Michigan isn't tough" because a lot of our kids aren't "ghetto," but at the same time, the types of families these kids have probably isn't entirely an accident. Do the coaches have blinders on directing them only/mostly at certain kinds of kids, and are they missing talent because of it? It doesn't seem terribly likely, given how strong Hoke's recruiting classes have been, but maybe there's a little something to that idea.
Comparison with the SEC. The playing field is NOT level, so how can we compare?? When the SEC is cut off from over signing football players, no more SEC teams averaging 30-35 signed players every time February comes around, and when Michigan can start adding college ready JUCO football players that can be a huge difference maker (like a Cam Newton) like these SEC teams can.. Let's talk comparisons of Michigan vs SEC when the whole playing field is actually level for once. Unfortunately, this is never brought up on espn and real reasons why the SEC has dominated the last 10 years in winning the most BCS Championships.