Someone who has a little bit of firsthand experience watching an elite inside linebacker.
John Harbaugh's reaction to Manti Te'o's 40 yd time
Just out of curiosity, I wonder what Ray Lewis currently runs in the 40. I would bet it's no faster than Te'o.
with or without Antler spray? Away from the cops after a knife fight?
This post becomes infinitely better due to the avatar. I just see a retired, old Lewis mounted on the wall at this point.
Ray Lewis is 37 years old and retired. Manti T'eo is in his early twenties and yet to play an NFL game. There is a big difference between the places in which they are in their career path.
Lewis ran a hand timed 4.71 at the combine thats about a official 4.81
In 1997 mlb weren't asked to cover TE that could run 4.4's. It was a different game and Lewis was a liability in the passing game for the last couple years but made up for it with his ability to align himself and the rest of the defense based off diagnosing the offense. Unless you think te'o is as good at diagnosing an offense as ray lewis then that 40 time is a huge red flag.
Those guys require combo coverages(safety/corner with MLB help).
I answered the question that was asked, I had no insight on the topic. I dont care about about Te'o unless the lions draft him. Now I will offer some insight, a 4.81 is nota red flag even in todays game case in point
Vontaze Burfict was undrafted last year ran 5.09 40 which was dead last in linebackers his rookie stats 73 solo tackles 54 assisted 1 sack 2 FR
Mychal Kendric was drafted 2nd rd pick 14 ran a 4.47 40 which was fastest his rookie stats 58 solo 17 assisted no other stats
Zack Brown was drafted 2nd rd pick 20 ran a 4.50 which was 2nd fastest his rookie stats 68 solo 25 assisted 1 ff 1 fr 3 int
Thats not a very big difference
Other notable slow 40 times for linebackers
all of them have been productive in "todays nfl" so Im asking is your opionon on Te'o bias?
How many of those are 3 play middle linebacker guys? burfict was out of shape at the combine and got himself turned around. I'm not saying te'o should go undrafted, you just don't take a guy in the first round you have to hide in pass coverage.
Burfict played much better than those other 2 but didnt play pass coverage this yr
This is another hint at how 40 times and "strength and conditioning" are a bit overplayed. Honestly, does .1 or .2 seconds in a 40 yard dash mean a player is better than another? No. 40 times have become an ego measuring contest more than anything at this point. It's just like "advances" in strength and conditioning. Don't get me wrong, being in shape is important, but there is absolutely no replacement for practicing and focusing on, you know, playing the actual game.
He's a hell of a lot faster that Dick Butkus, as so too were many of the RBs Dick chased down from behind. The kid, no matter the recent bashing he has taken in the press, knows positioning, angles of pursuit and just has a head for the game. That might help explain just why he had so damn many interceptions this past year. If you don't think it was due to his knowing the game, you are only kidding yourself.
NFL TE's also don't typically run 4.4s, unless they are named Vernon Davis.
Jerry Rice ran a 4.6. Times have changed.
I never really understood this argument. For some reason, there seems to be a widely-held belief that human beings are much faster now than they were ten years ago.
Athletes today have better nutrition and dedicated 40 training, specifically the fast start, which were not as emphasized as in the past.
The past being 2004? I'm just not buying it until I see some evidence. Look at the top 15 receivers by total yards in the NFL and their corresponding 40 times.
Well 40 times have certainly gotten progressively faster over time. I think that athletic training has become more of a science, and I think raw speed is also more of an emphasis now than it was in the 1990's. It doesn't mean that players are better athletes or faster, it just means that more effort is put into the technique of running on a track to show your speed than, you know, just playing football.
Gradual increases in speed over 25 or 30 years, sure, but people often just assume that players from the 90s and early 2000s were slower, and I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that's true or that it's important.
"Better nutrition" and "better training" is Ostrichian code language for "Performance Enhancing Drugs."
For what it's worth, I *do* think that players have gotten faster over the past 20-30 years. And I've just stated the reason. It is true that people are training better (and that there may be more 40-specific training now than there was 20 years ago), but the actual product on the field looks a bit different than it did in 1990 and that is because players are capable of molding their bodies into ever-bigger-and-faster shapes because they are using chemicals which assist in that transformation.
Walking towards every girl in every bar
Watching my ND friend go crazy on Twitter yesterday about all the people saying Teo shouldn't be a first round pick was amusing.
I had the same reaction when I learned that his dead girlfriend never existed...
may think that I am overreacting, but I don't think Teo has an NFL future. I think that one can only convclude based on the recent events with him that he is not all there upstairs. He is now running a very sub par forty, he did not take part in the bench press, and he is having to answer questions about sexual orientation in team interviews. I just don't see how this goes well from here for him.
I think you probably are overreacting, since T'eo amassed a pretty impressive body of work during game conditions over his career in South Bend. He may not be a three-down LB at first, but the man has game (and not just with the nonexistent ladies, where he's got mad game). No question his prospects have plummeted since the BCS game and all the distractions, but he played very well for NDU this year, and to say he has no NFL future seems a bit extreme.
Just my opinion, of course.
when you have to go Katie Couric interview pre-draft, have to address the media at the combine regarding your fake girlfriend and needing to convince NFL teams that you are not gay when it seems pretty certain you are, I just don't know if I can find the happy ending in that scenario. It just looks like the writing is on the wall there.
You here all week?
I would really hope that he wouldn't have to convince any NFL team of anything pertaining to his sexual orientation. These teams ought to care about the body of work on the field, and any off-field issues that may make him "unavailable" during the season.
Prospective employers are actually prohibited by law from asking about sexual orientation as a condition of employment. Given that this is basically a pre-hire evaluation/assessment, this line of questioning should be way out of bounds. The girlfriend thing is fair game, assuming its not framed in a discriminatory manner and is relevant to his potential fitness to perform the job duties required of him. Ditto on the physical stuff.
I am not an employment law expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm pretty sure that no federal law prohibits exmployment discrimination based on sexual orientation. Some states/territories have laws that do, though.
Federal EEOC law has been interpreted to also prohibit discrimination based up sexual orientation: http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html
This is the 21st century, folks. I understand that this sort of stuff remains par for the course in professional sports, but fans condoning or accepting it as practice speaks to where we are as a society.
(Trying to prevent crossing the "politics" line. If this has happened, I didn't mean to disturb the peace!)
I don't think anyone on the board is condoning it. As for "accepting it," that seems more like simple acknowledgement of reality. Until active players start coming out*, fans not accepting the homophobic culture of the NFL doesn't really mean a whole lot. The push to change the culture of the league has to come from within the league. And I think there has been movement in that direction the past few years (you're seeing more and more players openly say they'd be fine with a gay teammate and players who say they aren't OK with that are being shouted down and shamed into apologizing).
*And let's not kid ourselves. Doesn't matter who the first player to be openly gay is or how good at foodball he is, he will be loved by some fans and hated by others solely for being gay. That's the reality where we are.
I was just about to write something about how fans' money could be the "push" to change the culture, but then I decided that that is a foolhardy statement. Football is too popular, and even if fans did take their money elsewhere, the NFL would only be able to present a facade of tolerance.
1. I was not condoning and do not condone discrimination based on sexual orientation.
2. The OPM interpretating a law as applying to sexual orientation is not the same as there being a statutory prohibition or a decision by a federal judge.
Regarding #2 - I am a manager for a Fortune 500 company and just had to take our legal course on this issue. It is against the law on a federal level and even though the EEOC is based on interpretation, there is already legal precendent based on indivudal court cases. I.e. my company says legally you can't descriminate based on sexual orientation.
I think those must be state court cases. Also, I think your employer is probably being cautious. And, FWIW, I'm glad that they are...I don't have the time to really research the law, but I don't think you'd have gay rights organizations advocating for a federal non-discrimination law (see below) if it was a waste of their time....I think that someone who really wanted to make a point of exercising his right (however much was may dislike that) to fire someone b/c he or she is gay could do so if the relevant state's law doesn't prohibit it.
Note: This is not legal advice. I am a lemur in a lab typing on a keyboard as part of an experiment.
The link you posed notes that the Office of Personnel Management has intepreted the law as you suggest. The OPM is basically the HR office for federal employees. Thus, its interpretations don't apply to the NFL or its teams. The link also comments that many states and localities have adopted laws, ordinances, rules, etc. on the topic. These do vary from place to place.
As a legal matter, the ability of an NFL team to ask that question and to base a draft selection does vary from team to team based on the jurisdiction they are in. (This could actually be a pretty interesting jurisdiction questoin for a law school exam. Team x from place y, makes an employment decision in place z that is announced in New York City . . .)
(Please note that I am only commenting on the state of the law - not what the law should be or what employers should do.)
Way out of bounds? Sort of like asking a prospective WR about whether or not his mother was a prostitute? No NFL organization would ever cross that line.
You do bring up an interesting point, though. Are NFL teams subject to the same employment laws as other employer organizations? I would assume yes, but I'd have to imagine that teams get away with things that other employers wouldn't in selecting players for their team.
EDIT: Wasn't Clarrett's lawsuit against the NFL a discrimination suit? That the NFL was unlawfully discriminating based on age or something. (Interesting side note: the judge that overturned the initial pro-Clarrett ruling was current Supreme Court Justics Sonia Sotomayor.)
Say what you want about Doyel, but I buy what he's selling about the context of the Ireland/Bryant yo mama a ho conversation.
That article seems to basically say "hey, maybe Ireland asked a really shitty question, but maybe that question was a follow-up to a previous question. We'll never know because neither Ireland nor Bryant will say anything. I'm not saying, just saying..."
It does, again, make me wonder about the NFL v. any other employer. What employer would ask you what your parents did for a living during a job interview? Let alone have follow-ups (allegedly) to the answer "My dad was a pimp."
I've wondered the same thing.
Is the difference that this is not a typical employer/employee relationship?
This interview does not even mean that there will be an opportunity for the NFL team to select the player in the draft.
Even if the team does select the player in the draft, they still have to enter into contract negotiations.
I still don't see how an NFL team can get away with asking about a player's sexual orientation. Doesn't seem like it should be legal.
As a practical matter, what the law is on this issue doesn't matter. What is Te'o's recourse, if he feels that NFL teams have been asking inappropriate questions? To sue the NFL, before he even plays a game? I'm sure that would go over well, especially since he's already considered somewhat of a potential distraction.
involved, and thus an NFL team can come to any decision they want but point to something else. It's an extremely competitive business, and the judgments about draftees are as much art as science (e.g. Tom Brady).
If Teo had run a 4.4 and had shut down Bama, no one would be asking these questions. Now how do we interpret if someone who has not performed well for the past few months is being passed over for his sexuality? His performance and bizarro tale have given GMs and coaches with their jobs on the line reason to be concerned.
I suspect someone will take Te'o as a value pick. I'm going w/ round 3 for the pool.
Is anyone doing a draft pool here? Something that rewards the minimum summed penalty function?
Sexual orientation is not explicitly mentioned as a protected class in federal anti-discrimination laws. Some states have enacted legislation that explicitly outlaws employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, but at the federal level, only the "traditional" classes are protected (i.e., race, gender, religion, age, national origin, disability, etc). The EEOC has tried to find ways around that (for example, by classifying discrimination against people who are transgender as a form of gender-based discrimination and therefore illegal), but it remains one of the major gaps in federal anti-discrimination law. It's one of the issues that LGBT rights groups are trying to address.
Strahan? Dude's been married twice and is now hitting Eddie Murphy's ex-wife. In divorce testimony, his ex accused him of repeatedly cheating.
You serious, Clark?
No doubt. Cromartie is clearly the gayest NFL player to ever hit NYC.
As a three dollar bill...
Do you know something I don't know about him? Not that there's anything wrong with it. Side note this thread just makes me miss "Playmakers". Best show ever. Damn NFL and their sensitivities....
I'm curious what led you to conclude with some certainty that T'eo's gay. I could not care less whether he is (other than it may give him a chance to be a trailblazer in the NFL), but I hadn't heard anyone come to this conclusion with certainty.
I'm not saying you're wrong - just curious if that theory had more credibility than I thought before reading your comment. Of course a big part of me thinks it's nobody's business but T'eo's.
To be clear, I'm not criticizing you here - obviously him being gay might be an issue for a team drafting him, although in a better world it wouldn't be. So it potentially plays into his draft status.
"I'm curious what led you to conclude with some certainty that T'eo's gay."
He listens to Coldplay.
His name is actually Gabe Ruth.
are a couple of reasons. First the "Gay-dar." In one of the most childish statements ever made, I have to say that he just seems gay. Most have identified that they think he is just not intelligent. I, on the other hand, see that his cognitive processes just seem to work differently. His personality is "queer," not as the insulting word, just meant to mean odd, out of place. Everything is "really emotional" or "deep in my heart." These phrases are spoken by straight men some times to convince people they care about something, but they seem to be a little too accurate with regard to Te'o. His emotions really do seem feminine, he related to Katie Couric in a girl level just a little too well.
Second, you don't not notice a girl is really a guy for nearly three years during hours and hours of telephone conversation without either really not caring about their gender or being affirmatively accepting that you are talking to a guy.
Third, his need to "over-clarify" that he is straight. Straight guys really don't attach much disrespect to being called gay. If they are not gay, it doesn't matter if somebody thinks you are, you know you're not, so you don't have to overcorrect and treat the idea as propserous.
Once again, going Seinfeild, not that there is anything wrong with that, I would just put my money on the fact that he putts from the rough.
Yeah but at some point he'll have to play football - which he's not bad at.
Yes he's lost a bit of money since the NCG but he'll get drafted regardless. There's a lot on the tape to like - I'm pretty sure.
While I enjoy the public humiliation of any ND player as much as the next guy, Te'o looked pretty fast while playing against us, including trying to chase down Gallon with his cloaking device activated.
Vontaze Burfict was not as consistent as Te'o in college, went into last year's draft with a rep as a head case, and sucked at the combine IIRC. He went undrafted...and led the Bengals in tackles last year after they picked him up as a free agent. If Te'o falls to the third round or lower, some team will probably get a steal.
I remember when Chris Speilman came out of Ohio and everyone said he was too slow to be a successful LB in the NFL. I think he did pretty well for himself.
As a 3-4 inside linebacker, I don't really think that 40 time hurts him much. The fact is that he makes plays, and he doesn't have to run sideline to sideline like a lot of 4-3 middle linebackers do. His body of work means more than his testing numbers.
That's interesting. Given that, I wonder if Harbaugh is just putting on a poker face.
That, or Harbaugh thinks it's more important than Magnus.
sorry about the misplacement
I think we may end up seeing a 30 for 30 about him in the next ten years.
I'm hungry. I could go for some catfish right about now.
The downward spiral of Manti Te'o is gonnna be the title of the next big Country Music band.
and just about sum's up my opinion of Te'o's future in the NFL. He seems like a head-case to me.
John Harbaugh's look is a strangely appropriate one for the player with the 20th best 40-time among prospective LBs this year. To be somewhat fair, he did have the 7th best time in the three cone drill, and he did reasonably well in some of the drills in which he participated, so there's that, I guess. It was sort of amusing that Te'o described the Combine as "exhausting", having had recent experience with exhausting events.
He also dropped about 15 pounds from his playing weight, presumably to be quicker in those types of drills (no link, heard it on Mike and Mike this morning). One would think that when he bulks back up, his times would be even slower.
to lose weight. Just because he lost 15lbs. doesn't mean he should get faster or that putting them back on will make him slower.
He's probably wondering how he beat up on Michigan this year with that kind of speed.
and Te'o were pretty locked in. When the QB is putting them on the money like that all night long it is pretty easy to have a big game. Denard delivered, Manti cashed in. The two were money all night.
Who the fuck is Borgess?
I assume its the guy that founded this spine clinic:
He has super heavy feet. One of the few people I have ever seen heel strike on a dead sprint.
Or he never learned how to sprint. I agree, it's weird seeing someone try to sprint heel striking, instead of running off the balls of his feet.
Thats what I meant. I was talking figuratively.
May not have seen Landry Jones do it.
And that was still faster than Manti Teo!
I think Rich Eisen may be a heel-striker.
no matter what his 40 time says, he had no trouble covering some pretty good college Tight ends over the years. I'd be more afraid of his performance in the NCG where his ability to tackle was as nonexistant as his "girlfriend"
they had all kinds of great things to say about Manti:
“It doesn’t matter that he slipped and fell while running his drill. No one pays attention to that. If there was a quarterback there he would have tackled him”
“That 40 time doesn’t matter. What he runs at the ND Pro Day is what really matters”
“He was tired because he played football later in the year than most players. He didn’t have time to train at camps like the other players did”
“He’s definitely getting drafted and will definitely be playing in the NFL”.
...yes, you definitely sound like Rain Man.
it's not really about if he will be drafted or not. Earlier in the year he was considered a top 5-10 pick and now they are talking 2nd round. That a pretty big fall in a few months
jock, fellas. This is like shooting fish in a barrel, feasting on carrion. Carry on--I mean, cut it out.
What kind of fish? Catfish?
I try to imagine what it must be like to be that guy these days. You know you are the punch line in countless jokes and no matter what you do or say things just seem to get worse and worse by the day. I hate it when my wife laughs at me in private - I cannot even imagine what it would be like to have the entire country (or so it seems) laughing at me.
While I'm in the camp of people who don't believe his version of the story I have reached the point where I actually feel bad for the guy. It's like a movie where he goes to bed one night as this All-American stud at Notre Dame and wakes up the next morning as the fat kid in Little Giants.
But, Ray Lewis ran a 4.71 at the combine and he turned out alright. If the Ravens don't draft Te'o it won't be because of 40 time and that barely relates to anything an NFL linebacker must be good at.
But does Te'o have Ray's killer instinct?
As others have pointed out, the 40 time by itself is not the issue.
The 40 time along with all the other drama is what hurts.
The off-field drama would pale if he came to the combine and crushed it.
But the off-field drama stays on the minds when his combine performance is so-so.
And no NFL team wants to buy drama unless it comes with a lot of guaranteed upside. And with T'eo it appears nothing is guaranteed.
2. The 40 time, corroborating evidence after the NC game
3. The self-inflicted drama
in that order
I don't care for Manti Te'o at all. Never have, even prior to his whole life imploding with lies.
However, he would run circles around anybody posting here, and then maul any of us when he's done whipping us.
So someone is only allowed to be critical of an athlete if they can outrun them in the 40? Seems like a silly rule.
Also, it's possible that some people on this blog could outrun Te'o in the forty, and since you really don't know who can and who can't let's just let that rule die.
Now that it's agreed that our message board of doughy internet denizens are no longer allowed to discuss any athletes' performance, does that mean we can finally have OT threads without people complaining? Or do we have to prove who can out-OT the OP before the OP can be OT?
The OP should have put OT on this post. If an OT post is labeled OT, then complaining that an OT post is OT is just being a dick to the OP and others, some of which could be OPs in other OT threads.
just call me "doughy"?
I was going to go with "pear shaped," but we all carry our weight differently.
Doesn't Tae Odoms pop up on these boards from time to time? There's one person on this board who'd have a shot.
you can calculate a 4.83 40 yard dash to a 13.3ish 100m. Obviously it's not worth much except to say that anyone with a 100m time in that vicinity has a very good chance to match or better Te'o's 40, and 13.3 certainly isn't an outlandish time for a younger male who is in shape and has even a little sprinting ability.
Finding someone on the board that can duplicate that time at 248lbs is a completely different story though; that's where why these guys are special athletes.
Edit: This is absolutely not a knock on Te'o, because like I said above it's the size and speed combination that's impressive, but as far as thinking nobody could run a 4.83, I'd like to add that a 4.83 40 yard split on a 100m dash almost certainly wouldn't qualify for a spot at the IHSA State Meet in the smallest school classification for girls.
into this thread, I will be really disappointed.
We'll probably find out later the rule didn't die and never existed in the first place.
poke. I happen to be fast. Not fast fast, but fast. Mechanic Street School had never seen the likes of me.
I've never attempted to be a professional athlete; hell, I was a mediocre high school athlete. What's it matter that he can run circles around me? He's not playing against me.
I ran a 4.16 40 yesterday, backwards and in some church shoes.
Then I bench pressed a Volkswagen.
Tell Te'o to bring it. I ain't scurred.
It actually reminds me of the scene in Moneyball. Where Brad Pitt is arguing with one of the new ballplayers. The ballplayer says the Yankees were paying him X amount of millions. Brad flips it and says the Yankees are paying you X amount of millions to play against them. I feel like the 31 NFL teams who end up not getting Te'o are going to be extremely happy to play against him.
@Bloomington Blue...His name was/is David Jusitce. And, frankly, that is apples to oranges comparison and a big stretch. Justice was beyond his prime, and not worth 1mill, versus the 6mill the Yanks paid the A's in cash considerations. That whole scene was about extracting the last percentage of talent and leadership out of a seemingly over-the-hill pay check player, rather than a young and dumb football player who will still get millions after a salacious public situation. Teo doesn't deserve anything publically, but on the field, someone will get him on the "cheap" and they may even win big on value.
The guy can play football. It's just a matter of whether he's a three-down or two-down LB.
Rivals had him at #12 overall and the third LB behind Jelani Jenkins and Vantaze Burfict.
Others of interest from that year:
1 - Bryce Brown
2 - Reuben Randle
5 - Matt Barkley
6 - Trent Richardson
11 - Dre Kirkpatrick
"I can't but think he's going to be at least a very servicable NFL player."
Oh, agree ... that's a fair statement.
He may even end up being very good to great. The combine results are probably not the best predictor of such stuff. I got nuthin' against T'eo personally other than he wore the gold helmet.
It comes down to risk/reward for these teams, particularly with respect to spending 1st round picks or high 2nd.
Take everything in total -- combine results, NC results, all the off-field stuff ... and ask yourself if you, as an NFL GM, would green-light T'eo as a 1st round pick. My hunch is GMs around the league are trending "no" on that one.
I only wanted to point out the when "America" alone down votes this thread, that "America" is truly lost. What is the analysis here?
Teo is quick to diagnois and takes pretty good angles, but him not being a blazer isn't all that surprising. Frankly, I am pretty sure John's expression is being taken way out of context. I just don't get the need for these kinds of threads. He is a good football player who is at best a fool, at worst a decietful liar.
know why they do the combine speed drills without pads and gear on? Seems to me like it would be pretty easy to ask the guys to suit up in standard equipment and then run. Would make the results a lot more meaningful, in my opinion. I am sure there is a reason, I just don't know what it is.
Just spit coke all over the iPad. Lmao
You're either a Raiders fan or don't know much about football.
The guy got like 14 hours of sleep total in 3-4 days.
He'll be much better at his Pro Day.
Lennay Kekua negged this thread.
Man I could do this all day. Imagine the signs if gameday comes to AA for UTL 2.
I would love to have Te'o on the Lions...as a 6th or 7th rounder
No thank you.
Go to 10:03 and watch the glory of this play for the 100th time. But this time, watch a pretty magnificent effort by bad guy No. 5 flying 50 yards down the middle of the field to chase the not-slow Jeremy Gallon out of bounds.
Does not seem to lack for football speed. He may turn out to be a total dud, but I will never cease to be amazed at the annual ritual of NFL folks not trusting what they see during football games as much as what they see at this hokey track and field event.
He didn't play particularly well in the MNC game against Alabama-caliber talent; the NFL is going to be even more difficult.
That's why the most awesome team on the planet, the Detroit Lions, will probably take him.
He'd be a great fit for a defense that always looks like bowling pins going down when a running back attacks up the middle, and doesn't get stopped until he reaches the secondary.
This guy is a real prospect!
Request: Shop of this where the sprint is replaced with Omameh plowing him down the field.
very long gif for a linebacker
His 40 time gets one out of five Kekuas.....?
"Any team that wastes a 1st round pick on Manti Teo should fire their GM on draft day"
Don't normally like MM, but I like this.