I'm normally not a stickler, but four threads down is the same topic.
Ed: Especially when you posted in that thread.
I'm normally not a stickler, but four threads down is the same topic.
Ed: Especially when you posted in that thread.
I realize that, but I was just getting frustrated with some Michigan fans and I thought it needed to be said.
So you make another thread about it?
We ALL need to make a thread about it. It shows our unity as a community.
We throw around "great" as easily as we throw around "fire". His track record is far more "good" to "very good". Those same Big East years you speak of, he only finished in the top half of his own conference once. That's not the track record of great. It's the track record of a coach who is good, and has a system that causes fits in the Tournament on short notice, but only goes so far.
2002–2003 West Virginia 14–15 5–11 6th West
2003–2004 West Virginia 17–14 7–9 T-8th NIT 3rd Round
2004–2005 West Virginia 24–11 8–8 T-7th NCAA Elite Eight
2005–2006 West Virginia 22–11 11–5 3rd NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2006–2007 West Virginia 27–9 9–7 T-7th NIT Champions
What he did before that is at a level where the talent effectively doesn't matter. At an equvilant level, BCS conference, he was middle of the pack. Innovative? Admirable? Yes. But while I think any reaction after a day like today is tinged with emotion, and no one is getting fired, or deserves to be fired yet, let's not all bask in the hope that past greatness will carry us to future greatest. Because it wasn't there.
If you want to be like Brian and believe that past respectability will lead to our respectability before Beilein gets too old to coach, and that's good enough as a stepping stone, there's nothing wrong with that. But if you're thinking there's any past evidence that greatness is around the corner, well...we have different definitions of the word.
I definitely think we throw the word "great" around too often and that we also give too much credit/blame to coaches, but I think you have to look at the totality of the circumstances.
Beilein's Elite Eight run at WVU was the deepest in school history aside from a national title game loss when they had a guy named Jerry West on the team. The school had only made the Sweet Sixteen four times prior to his back-to-back trips (by comparison Michigan has made the championship game 5 times). He also appears to have left the program in great shape for Bob Huggins (another very good coach having lots of success) after inheriting a team that was down in the dumps.
Combine that with tourney success at Richmond and Michigan (coming off such a long absence) as well as an appearance with Canisius and you have an extremely impressive resume.
I don't know if he's a good enough recruiter to get us to "greatness" but there aren't many coaches (who we could actually get) in the country that I would trade him for.
Beilein's own peers consider him a great coach; there are many articles out there on this. That's where it's coming from. As for his WVU record, keep in mind that they hadn't done anything in a long time when he got there. He had to build that program from the ground up and turned them into an annual tourney team. What kept him from greatness, according to many, was that the talent level he had wasn't quite up to national-contender levels, owing to the fact that 1) there isn't much of a recruiting base there and 2) he's not the guy to cut corners in recruiting (though his successor there probably is).
Beilein came to Michigan in large part because we had a stronger recruiting base. The theory has been that his coaching, combined with typical Michigan-caliber talent, will achieve great things. That could well happen. His first recruiting class here was not up to our usual levels but his classes since have picked things up (and he's off to a good start for 2011). Let's see where we are when more of his guys are around and schooled in the system.
The only problem I have with this is the fact that that cheatin' prick Huggins is doing better than JB in WV. I'm wondering if in the world of college basketball and dirt sandwich recruiting if a program has to be at least "a little dirty" to break through to the next level.
Not a happy concept if true.
At a school like WVU, you probably have to be a little dirty to bring in top-10 talent. At UM, possibly not.
Just want to recap the argument: Finishing in and around the top half of a conference that includes UConn, Georgetown, Cuse and Nova (and Louisville and Marquette by the end) at a non-traditional power (to say the least) and a run to the Elite 8 with said non-traditional power is not "great." OK.
"What he did before that is at a level where the talent effectively doesn't matter. At an equvilant [sic] level, BCS conference, he was middle of the pack."
That literally makes no sense. The talent doesn't matter at some level? That's irrational. With teams at Richmond and Canisius, teams essentially as talented (and often less) as the others in their conferences, he did things no coach had at those schools before or has since. THAT'S when coaching makes a difference - when talent levels are similar. Talent always matters.
At Michigan, he has LESS talent than most of these schools at the moment (MSU, OSU, Wisconsin, Purdue always, Illinois generally, Indiana soon), he's done very well-to-eh. It's year THREE. We just had more success than we had in 10 years. If his turnaround wasn't "great," what would have been? Only a championship?
If we're talking recruiting, well, that's a different discussion (I think he's done well here, but it's an arguable point). His peers recently voted him the TOP coach in the nation at doing the most with the least - THAT'S, again, what a great coach does. If you wanted National Championships at WVU and Richmond, I don't know what to tell you, but that's something less than a "great" opinion.
If your point is that UM needs more talent to beat the upper level big-10 teams, then I agree. However there quite a few fans that thought JB could finish in the top-3 consistently with less talent, because he could out-coach Izzo, Matta, Ryan etc.. This year should hopefully disprove that. This has been one of the least athletic teams at UM in a long time, JB has to take some criticism for that. No one is saying he should be fired or anything like that, but recruiting is a big concern.
Why does everyone think that because true freshmen and sophomores are mediocre that they will never amount to anything? When Ekpe Udoh was a freshman at UM, he averaged 5 points and 4 rebounds and as a sophomore he averaged 6 points and 5 rebounds. It is amazing he ever got better because we all know that you are at your best as a true sophomore.
#1 - did you even read the numbers? Top half is barely accurate. Middle of the pack would be much more so.
#2 - yes, 1 run to the Elite 8 and a number of NIT runs is not "great".
#3 - the teams at the lesser levels have far less of a talent differential than the teams in the upper level conferences...as YOU point out comparing our talent to other teams in the Big Ten. Doh. And every team he coached was not the least talented in the conference at the time.
#4 - actually, on average, we've had less success than we have had in 10 years. We were at least making NIT's regularly. We've done better one year, and worse two. You even then say he's done well to eh. Sounds like what I said. Neither is great. What would have been great? Progress. Not regression.
#5 - and, you act like recruiting isn't part of college coaching. Uhm, yeah, it is...actually, it's the biggest part. Because guess what...come April, the only teams that are going to be playing are the ones that recruited the best talent. No matter how good their coaches are. The ones that will probably win there will have both. His peers see him as a great x's and o's coach. That's what getting more with less is. But GREAT coaches get talent AND know x's and o's. If you can't do both, you can't be great. THAT'S what a great coach does.
#6- I didn't want anything at West Virginia...if he had won national championships, he wouldn't be here. But, if you take a conference bottom feeder, a great coach wins a conference championship with that team, eventually. Or, you know, builds a program that can finish among the top teams, at least a few times. The irony is West Virginia has a shot at winning a national championship now. Not because their coach is doing better x's and o's, but because they have more talent.
No one is expecting him to win National Championships, or even Big Ten titles in year three. But could he do that once, somewhere, before he's anointed great? That's all.
Thinking before writing is your friend. There are some other reasonable responses and addendum's to the point around here. You might want to follow their lead.
This has a lot to do with Beilein abandoning the Amaker strategy of loading up the nonconference slate with creampuffs.
On recruiting, Beilein would be the first to tell you that you need talent. He is NOT trying to win with only 2-star guys. Look at whom we are pursuing.
I haven't had any issue with your addendums or Purplestuff's. Hope that was clear, though the way the threads branches it's tricky.
And I thought I made it clear in my first post that I'm not saying get rid of him. Just that in his defense we throw around great as easy as "fire" the guy. And it may have been a game of semantics (and who doesn't like some antics?), but to me, great is Coach K, Roy Williams, Izzo, etc. level. Not got to the 8 once. And if you want to say he's a great technical coach, that's probably true. (Though I think the system sets itself up more to surprises and upsets than consistent greatness - YMMV). But you need players to be great. And IF (I don't know yet, it's not over yet) he doesn't finish recruiting with a flurish, we're looking at 3 years from the 2011 class to be mature and good...and after SEVEN years, how many more is Beilein going to have left in him?
He's a great guy, but he's not a kid anymore. He came here because he thought it would allow him to finish his career on top. And I don't know that he's that much closer to it than if he had stayed at West Virginia at this point. But nothing is set till the recruiting class is signed. It's just that if one wants to defend him, they should do like you, with reasoned responses. And not just throw out "he's great" because of imagined top flight success and some 5 year old SI small sample poll. (I mean, Jim Carty and Michael Rosenberg said he was great too...but now I'm just being mean).
"I was checking out the players they lost and it was astonishing he did so well. He lost Kevin Pittsnogale,Mike Gansey, Patrick Beilein and many others."
I also think Beilein is a great coach considering the talent he has had to work with.
The problem is his recruiting. He doesn't recruit well enough to consistently make the tournament.
I do, however, agree that he is a great coach.
Beilein recruited well enough at WVU to turn them into an annual tournament team. They've gone each of the past six years except for 2007, when they were left out despite a 22-9 record (and they promptly went on to win the NIT). At Michigan, he is now pulling in higher-rated players than he did at WVU. It's just a matter of time.
"The problem is his recruiting. He doesn't recruit well enough to consistently make the tournament."
Hardaway Jr., Smotrcyz, Brundidge, and possibly Ziegler or Horford.
Also, Morris was highly rated and we have McLimans who redshirted.
The guy can recruit.
Does he even have an offer?
Those were all players he recruited. What are you talking about?
Two of Beilein's teams have sapped my will to live and caused me to question the hire. Tonight they moved from disappointing to embarassing. However...Last year was the most fun I've had in over a decade. That buys him another year in my book.
How did you survive Amaker?
Lots and lots of malt liquor. Yeah, Daniel Horton's suspension nearly killed me too. Thank God for Mickey and his Finest.
After giving all these insightfoul threads a look see, I've come to the realization that Belien is everything good and bad. I guess it just depends if I put on Fox News or MSNBC
jk. But seriously, stop drinking the Koolaid. Hes a good coach, that has had "success". If he does what he has done in the past we will be a mid to uppermid team in the b10 and make a run every few years in the tourney. Hes a good coach.
That being said, we stink this year. And ultimately some blame needs to go on his shoulders. So I don't see what the big deal is with people criticizing him. Don't take it personally when people are reasonably critical of UM coaches.
If people have actual criticisms of a coach and his decisions/actions that is one thing, but people griping because of losses or poor performances as if any coach has a magic wand capable of making a young, undersized, not so talented team good (and if such a wand exists Beilein certainly used it to full effect last year) gets really annoying, especially when said coach is a universally acknowledged leader in his profession.
I see a lot of criticism, followed by people giving the blanket "Hes the coach, he knows better than you". As for personnel issues, its his 3rd year. I know he really has only had 2 recruiting classes, but there are underclassmen contributing all over the country. Its not too much to expect for him to have enough talent to go over .500. Would you have been defending an under .500 record before the season?
If the gripe you have is that he has done a poor job recruiting so far, that is a legitimate opinion that can be debated factually. I personally think he's been hamstrung by some bad luck with injuries/transfers to his big men and the fact that there are only two halfway decent upperclassmen on the roster (a situation he inherited), but again, that is a point that can be debated. It is when people just say "this is unacceptable" and "he has to prove more to me" and "the record just has to be better" that I get annoyed and I think others do to. That is the only point I was trying to make.
I guess people giving reasons for their discontent would be good, but I don't think criticism should be unacceptable on this blog. I mean I often see people make reasonable points and get negged b/c of the unwritten rule that somehow criticizing performance is anit-Michigan.
Also I don't think the recruiting is the only criticism to be had. We lost several games this year to teams with rosters that I wouldn't consider better than ours. I leave it at that though.
What are you talking about? Have you seen their bench players? They could start on any other school. There that good. Just kidding. This team needs 2 more quility post players and Kalvin Grady and Manny Harris to comeback next year and there looking at atleast the sweet 16.
"coach is a universally acknowledged leader in his profession."
I am not joining either side of this debate. In fact I read this thread in hopes of gaining some insight into the coach himself.
I haven't followed basketball since the second fab five left AA and have recently been trying to get back into it. While doing so, I have been trying to make up my mind where I sit in this matter (as to whether JB is a great coach or not.
I am still unsure where I stand mainly because:
a) I don't know enough about him
b) haven't been able to follow the sport as much as I'd like
c) haven't had time to research his past
For these reasons I don't think it would be fair for me to make a judgement at this time. I can say, however, that the existance of this and many other similar threads makes that statment you made untrue. Obviously it isn't "universally" accepted that he is a great coach if so many people think he isn't.
I'm not trying to be an asshole, I'm just saying that isn't very accurate.
Among fans? No, but then literally no coach is universally lauded by fans. Every coach in history has had his/her critics.
Among his coaching peers, he is held in very high esteem.
Hello. Zack Gibson scored 10 points today, how bout that! Also we OUTSCORED State in the 2nd half, how bout them apples! If we can parlay our par excellence into the Big Ten Tourney look out!!
John Beilein is a good coach. And we will survive without Dee Hart. Stay cool and continue supporting our guys. Especially now.
Eight of the eleven teams in the Big 10 will be better next year than this year.
MSU loses no one important and gets a top 10 recruiting class nationally
Purdue loses no seniors (though Johnson may declare) and gains a top 25 recruiting class. Hummel and Moore will be seniors.
Illinois loses no one, was starting two freshman for most of the season, and adds a top 10 national recruiting class
Minnesota's best players, minus Westbrook, return and their strength is on the inside, where they are still young. Al Nolen will likely return as well.
Northwestern will get back Coble from injury, and Juice Crawford is only a freshman.
Indiana was extremely young this year, and their monster class enters their sophomore season.
Iowa was also extremely young. They'll improve, though they'll still be bad.
Penn State returns Battle for his senior season
That leaves OSU, Wisconsin, and Michigan. OSU loses Turner but will get one of the top three recruiting classes in the country. Wisconsin loses Hughes and probably Leuer, but they always seem to reload and never miss the tournament. Even if both are worse next year, history says they won't be much worse.
Michigan will lose their best player (Sims), their second best player will probably declare because he can't stand the coach, and they're bringing in -- at best -- the fifth best recruiting class in the conference.
Plus, Michigan missed two potential losses on the schedule, playing Purdue only once and not traveling to Champaign.
Even without taking their opposition into account, Michigan will be noticeably worse next year. Compared to the rest of the Big 10, Michigan will substantially regress.
Michigan will lose their best player (Sims), their second best player will probably declare because he can't stand the coach
And you know this . . . how?
BTW, MSU is losing Raymar Morgan, who was their leading scorer both times they played us, so I'd say that's a significant loss. Lucas might give the NBA a look as well.
Well, since Sims is a senior that's pretty easy.
As for Harris, the fact that he an Beilein don't get along is the worst kept secret in Big 10 basketball. I'm certainly not the only one who things he's splitting (see: Cook, Brian).
Draymar Morgan has been a huge disappointment for MSU. Losing him isn't that big of a deal. Lucas might split but it's highly doubtful.
....because Delvon Roe has been such a stud it won't be hard to take his place? Also, I could understand if you took a "D" out because someone was a horrible defender (ex - elvon Roe) but why did you add one to Mr. Morgan? Stick to Illinois basketball. You sound like a troll
Sorry FRIEND. I'm doing multiple things at once and flubbed the name. Clearly that means Michigan is tournament bound next year.
Or it clearly it means you don't know college basketball very well. I'm not your friend. As I said, stick to Illinois basketball.
Brian doesn't really cover the basketball program (Tim does), so even if he thinks that, I'm not sure how plugged-in he is. Given the way the local media here cover Michigan sports, if there were a serious rift between Beilein and Harris, there would be many stories written on it. There haven't been. (And there is the little issue that he really hasn't raised his game this year, and his draft stock is slipping.)
That's ridiculous! Who better to tell us about where our program is going than the Illinois fan who doesn't know the difference between Draymond Green and Raymar Morgan (or Delvon Roe or any of the other MSU players whose name starts with a D).
Yes, truly I have been schooled. By misspelling a name, you have proven everything I said incorrect.
In about a month you'll start seeing the first projections for 2011. Also in about a month you're also going to see dozens of butthurt threads about how nobody has any respect for Michigan or Beilein the Magnificent. I'm sure they'll be wrong too.
There is a rift. This is fact. Beilein sat Manny at Iowa last year. Suspended him this year. Knowing people that work with the team, I think I can safely say that it's not all sunshine and lolipops.
Luckily for us, Manny played his way out of the NBA draft throughout B10 play.
I am aware of the two incidents. I know that they have had issues. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they are currently having problems, and that these problems are so bad that Manny will want to leave at any cost.
Michigan only lost 2 walk-on PGs this year and got worse. Using your argument, this is exactly the opposite of what should have happened.
You are right. Returning starters, experience, and recruiting classes don't matter in college basketball. I was blind and now I see.
Although I should point out that your statement reflects rather poorly upon Supreme Basketball Tactician Beilein.
Or it points to how stupid your post was. So you point to Sims leaving and think the other 4 returning starters don't mean anything? And getting 2 guys who could step into major minutes as well as a good shooter who transferred in halfway through the season means we are going to get worse? Yes, yes you are blind.
This is probably the 4th time I said this on here, Beilein's last year at WV he lost his top 6 scorers from the previous season and still won the NIT championship and had wins over 2 top 10 teams. I was checking out the players they lost and it was astonishing he did so well. He lost Kevin Pittsnogale,Mike Gansey, Patrick Beilein and many others.
It's so funny seeing fans from other schools visiting a Michigan blog site. Really goes to show you we are the leaders and the best.
It's true: Brian Cook runs the best blog in the Big 10. I'd read it if it were an Iowa blog or a Wisconsin blog or whatever.
It's just fun to watch the hive mindset kick in after every bad event. A little bit of trolling helps bring unpopular opinions to the foreground. The Michigan fans won't say them because they don't want to be negged. I don't mind.
That's because you're an idiot
You must have wwaaaayyyyy too much time on your hands.
I can honestly tell you that you could count on one hand that had every digit cut off by a table saw the number of times I visited a teams website that I was not a fan of. Oh to have a life so full that I had nothing better to do than see what opposing fans were talkng about.
Dude, you should get a life.
at least do your homework.
State loses Morgan and possibly Lucas.
Purdue loses 3 starters - Grant, Kramer, and Johnson (almost declared early last year definitely leaving this year)
Ohio State will lose Turner
Wisconsin loses Hughes, Bohannon and a bench player
Minnesota loses 2 starters - Westbrook and Johnson
Illinois was an average team at best that benefited greatly from a weak schedule
Indiana, Penn State, Iowa will not be rebuilt overnight
To me that is a lot of talent that seems to be leaving. I will also bet dollars to donuts that Manny returns next year and if Lucas is not around he will be the favorite for conference POY. DO YOUR HOMEWORK NEXT TIME.
one last thing... the worst kept secret in the big ten is the relationship between mccamey and weber. Did you watch today's game?
Yes, he conveniently didn't mention McCamey will probably be gone next year.
McCamey isn't going anywhere. His relationship with Weber has been up and down but its nowhere near Harris and Beilein levels. He's still in an NBA or bust mindset according to everyone around him. Harris is looking to get out, even if it means going D-League.
As for the other examples, you think Lucas is going, except for that he really has no incentive to go. Purdue returns two of their top three players for sure, may return Johnson as well, and they were a top five team before Hummel was injured. LewJack will also be around the entire season. OSU loses Turner but is getting a monster recruiting class. Minnesota loses no one particularly special and will get their point guard back from ineligibility. Northwestern gets back their best player. Illinois returns everyone and will be on their second top-10 recruiting class in a row.
And, although I hate to repeat myself, Michigan's recruiting class just isn't that good. You guys sound like Michigan State football fans when you try puffing it up. It's definitely a better class than what you've been getting, but even if you get Zeigler (which you're won't) it would still be behind OSU, MSU, Illinois and Purdue.
Michigan was a two man team this year. They will lose both players. If you want to read improvement into that, by all means go ahead. I'm just looking forward to the threads in 2011 when Michigan is 11-19 (5-13) and people are angrily calling out the haters for all the pessimism.
There is as good a chance that Manny leaves as McCamey and Lucas but then your point would be ridiculously stupid and moot, so you chose to ignore it. This is why you are a tool. Go home troll. Illinois will blow nuts next year without their floor general
...with your ability to continue talking out of your ass regarding Manny Harris. You have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
Except for that it's not going to be four returning starters, it's going to be three. And the two starters you are losing are the only two players you had this year that could have played for MSU, OSU, Wisconsin, etc. Douglas, Novak, and Lucas-Perry are Iowa-level talent. Morris may develop into a better player than that, but hasn't yet. And none of the players you have coming in are game changers as freshmen. They're decent players that might develop in time.
I refuse to carry on a conversation with a rival fan who claims to know the future of our players before the last game has been played. Remember before the year when it was a sure thing that Manny was leaving? Also, Lucas-Perry was recruited by and played for Arizona, so I am going to guess Iowa thanks you for putting their program up to the Wildcats level. As I said before, stick to Illinois basketball.