Down in the Mgo.licio.us links is an article titled "Kill not thrilled with what Tim Brewster left him". In that article is the following quote: "“We’re not athletically gifted enough. We’re getting slower. You have to recruit tough, you don’t make them tough. You have to recruit tacklers,” Kill said. "
How sad. Maybe it is the medication. I won't draw any parallels, but he needs to learn how to point differently.
I've learned that the best
That only works
That only works if you specifically mention their names, though..
Kill should have removed the
Kill should have removed the M from their helmets....You know, make them EARN IT
I think he should take away
I think he should take away the glitter... and never give it back. Everybody wins!
I know from experience dude. If you know what I mean.
he had practice jerseys during fall camp
that said Minnesota Loafers for guys who did not earn their glitter.
our package is our package, and it’s pretty big. - Greg Mattison, Bowl Practice Presser Tr. 12-13-11.
what if...
the score & situations were reversed
What would you want Hoke to say?
Kill may be playing to the fan base a bit here...he should protect his players, but they really did not play well on saturday
um...don't know about you,
um...don't know about you, but I wouldn't want our coach putting down the players no matter how bad they're playing. What does that accomplish?
"There will be blood on the field and it won't be mine." -KK
Vince Lombardi
agrees with you.
I believe Hoke would say (and
I believe Hoke would say (and has said things like this) that: "We've got to get tougher."
That means he's including himself and the coaches while not blaming the players entirely and implying that the whole team/program has to get tougher.
Kill basically said that his current players can't get the job done because they don't have it within them to be tough. In essence he said, "These players aren't tough, and as long as they're here, they won't be tough. I'm going to recruit tough players, but the team won't be tough until the current players are gone." Yikes.
that is much better
but...I don't think Kill wants to start saying that he is the reason the team stinks on ice
He just got there...its a selfish move, but he honestly believes his cupboards are bare
even though what he said was not PC and probably not in the best interests of anyone, I think he was spot on
Minny may have good kids and I hope they all graduate and stay out of trouble and become leaders or legends, but they can't tackle
Come On
Magnus don't you think every player on the roster has heard worse in practice? You guys are right, denegrating a player will never work when it comes to motivation.
Sincerely,
Bill Parcells-Is she hurt again?
Jim Schwartz-Taking that penalty was stupid. Stupid.
Bo Schembechler- You're Fat
The Marines
Navy Seals
Army Rangers
This is no big deal stop being a bunch of daisies making a big deal out of nothing.
When Jerry Kill has the same
When Jerry Kill has the same clout as Bill Parcells, then it might be okay.
As it is, he's basically a no-name coach with success at some smaller schools who's suffered multiple seizures this year. Not that there's anything wrong with medical problems, but you've got a coach who can't go two weeks without having a seizure who's never accomplished anything big in the college football world...and he's saying that all of his players are wusses and the team won't be better until they're all gone.
Also, all the guys you mentioned (except Bo) were pro coaches who coached pros in a professional league...and Bo finished coaching 22 years ago. Bear Bryant was a successful coach, too. Maybe it would be okay if Jerry Kill did a remake of "Junction Boys."
Something wrong with Junction Boys?
I don't know the facts, but I saw the movie. Seemed pretty brutal, and so?
"Everyone gets dumped Gabe. Let me give you some advice: a little coverup on your Adams Apple will make it appear smaller. Which will make you appear less like a transvestite."
What is the argument
Magnus I have no idea what you are arguing.
So you are saying if a coach is really successful he is allowed to be an asshole, but if you suck you have to be nice? That's pretty screwed up. I'll let all of the parents of the kids I coach aware of that rule.
"Parents I want you to know I will treat your kids with respect and try my best to put them in a position to achieve their goals, but if we win the championship I got the green light to be lunatic and I'll be allowed to swear and humiliate the kids."
People can use all the pyschoanalysis they want, but when you are asking people to put themselves at risk physically for the greater good you need to install toughness and it's not always going to be positive. That's just the way it is.
IMO it's because most of us
that are under a certain age have grown up under the self-esteem movement's auspices, whose basic tenet is that you have to build confidence in someone before they can succeed. Most of us grew up with that and the majority subscribe to that philosophy. So positive encouragement and reinforcement are at a premium, negative reinforcement is frowned upon as either unproductive or just "mean." I happen to disagree completely with that philosophy, and think that people are a lot tougher and more resilient than they way most would treat them. And that success and self-esteem comes from accomplishment, not from being full of pride prior to doing anything.
"Everyone gets dumped Gabe. Let me give you some advice: a little coverup on your Adams Apple will make it appear smaller. Which will make you appear less like a transvestite."
Like it or not, that's the
Like it or not, that's the way the world works. If you're a nobody and you're an asshole, people are going to think you're an asshole. If you're a somebody and you're an asshole, people are going to think you're an asshole...but an asshole worth following.
Regardless, what you didn't address is that you referenced a bunch of professional coaches who get paid to make their players tough. One of the roles of a coach who leads amateur young men is to be a leader and absorb some of the blame; Kill seems to be passing off the blame elsewhere. That's just not good leadership, in my opinion.
I don't think anyone's overreacting. It's a discussion about a comment made by a coach. Nobody's asking for a public apology or a firing or anything. We're just questioning whether it was an appropriate comment for a coach.
Got Me
You're right that in this world if you are successful you have more room to be a jerk.
I disagree with the pro coaches making people tough though. Pro coaches have no time for such bs. If you are not tough(or really freakin talented) in the pros they just leave you behind and go to the next phase. College is the exact last place where maybe your life can get straightened around or your coach can bring something out of you that you didn't know you had. We've seen this at Michigan. Plenty of players have had moments of doubt or did not perform to their capability, but came out better players/people due to hard coaching.
A. Arrington- You think Lloyd was tough on him? I want to say he did say something public about his knuckleheadness when he was suspended or when he was let back.
B. Graham- It appears that someone at Michigan had an effect on him. He was out of shape and inconsistent his 1st 2 years. It appears he may have taken to Barwis's with his body transformation.
This discussion has gotten off track , but basically what I am saying is that if you have 100 kids the key to being a great coach is finding what motivates each one of those kids and getting them to perform at a level they could not reach without being properly pushed. Each kid is different and each team is different and at times during the season you may need a hug and at other times you may need a kick in the ass. Both are needed and both are effective and we have no idea what place Minnesota is in.
This just hits home to me because I've had 2 close friends my whole life we all played sports together and each one of us took to coaches completely different. My wrestling coach was a Bobby Knight and I loved him, my 1 buddy had no time for yelling and he told him to take a hike and quit. Was that great coaching? No, because he lost a good player, because he couldn't adapt.. Was it good coaching for me? Yes.
The key for these coaches is to find the players that match his personality so he doesn't have to waste as much time tending to players feelings. RR always talked about finding guys who really loved it because he was going to be hard on them so they really had to love it.
I don't agree with what Kill did so I'm going to stop, but the hand wringing about "oh the kids" just got under my skin.
I'm not saying pro coaches
I'm not saying pro coaches MAKE people tough. I'm saying they can say all kinds of things and pro athletes have to just deal with it because they're (usually) getting paid millions of dollars. And those pro coaches don't typically call out the blue collar, backup middle linebacker/special teamer; they call out the receivers or prima donna running backs or cornerbacks.
Regardless, I agree that hard coaching works for some kids...but the kids you mentioned at Michigan were Arrington and Graham, neither of whom was ever publicly called "weak" or "a loser" or "a girl" or anything negative. They were dealt with appropriately as individuals...
...which is why painting your entire team with such a broad brush stroke as "We're not tough" is a bad idea. Players A, B, C, and D might not be tough...but what about players E, F, and G? Now you've insulted those guys, too, and they might not respond well.
Do the Marines and Army
Do the Marines and Army Rangers hold press conferences to complain about their enlisted men?
wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog
Eh, maybe not the best day to make that point
Eh, he's not calling out a specific group or person
There are all types of leaders, in the military, football, and everyday life.
Given this is a volunteer military, the leadership theory that is taught is discipline behind closed doors / praise in public. How it gets applied in practice, depends on who the leader is. Of course boot camp is a different things as well.
On the flipside, there are some people who respond to being called out in public.
So a really good leader understands his people and how to motivate them in what situation.
Bo Schembechler- You're
Bo Schembechler- You're Fat
There is a difference here. Bo didn't hold a press conference to tell the media that Dierdorf was fat. He said it behind closed doors. It only made the rounds years later.
miserable gaffe; what should they all do now,
quit, with the awareness that the necessary toughness isn't in them to begin with?
Who knows, maybe he wants to drive a few out. Scorched earth policy could backfire, big time.
If the situation were reversed,
and I say this from recent experience. I would just say I wanted the coach fired and hire some one who can coach. Then I would leave a nice note for my family and jump off a cliff.
wow really? that sucks for
wow really? that sucks for the kids on his team.
Turns out the coach also
Turns out the coach also clubs the baby seals he's supposed to be protecting.
Minny did not play well
They did everything wrong
Kill is trying hard to turn around (what's worse than a tire fire?) a program
Part of that is coach speak...he can always say he was talking about someone else
I give him credit for trying to keep his team's spirits up during the game (he called them over before entering the tunnel at the half and had a pep talk)...the coaches on the sidelines seemed to cheer whenever Minny made a half decent play (usually on 1st or 2nd down)
Minny is a real bad situation right now for a coach, he doesn't have a lot of options
His main problem is realizing he is coaching in the big 10 and everything he says is blown up...just needs to be a bit more refined in his comments
nothing like throwing your players under a bus.....
You can't make players tough? You have to recruit tacklers...you can't teach players how to tackle? Our coaching staff would tell you that is complete BS. I can understand the guy is frustrated but he has to take some of the responsibility for that. I feel bad for those players.
Can't make players
Can't make players tougher...someone should send him film on the 1969 Michigan Wolverines.
Forget the '69 team (actually
Forget the '69 team (actually don't, but for the sake of this post, do) the 2011 defense that just abused Minnesota seems a hell of a lot tougher than last year.
Go Blue!
posted from iPhone
I didn't think we weren't tough last year, just perpetually confused and struggling at fundamentals
But a lot of his complaints about Minny's defense
have to do with fundementals... If you can't teach a player to tackle, you don't belong in coaching.
I'm sure Kill and his staff are decent coaches, but if your players aren't tackling right, you don't necessarily scrap the defense... Michigan's defense is a great example of that, we were awful, and until this year I can't remember the last time I saw a group of winged helmets converge on the ball and tackle well but that's what they're doing now.
Posted from my Dell Venue Pro
"There will be blood on the field and it won't be mine" - K
Wow ... I've got to imagine
Wow ... I've got to imagine he would like to get this back. This is the opposite of coachspeak.
not to be sacrilegious but...
whats the other side of the famous quote?
Those who stay will be champions
yes, the students who tough it out, give everything they have will be a champion
but what about the kids who leave?
I know Kill did not say it very well, but he has a team of the guys who did not stay (they just haven't left yet) and he did not recruit them. Kill was just too honest
Ahem, "those who leave will be doctors, lawyers and
captains of industry." Please don't give our sign to the opposition.
I don't think your point of view is going to float.
May you have a strong foundation
When the winds of changes shift
A coach is honest when it
A coach is honest when it makes his team better. This does nothing for his team. Kill screws the pooch here. There is no other way to take this.
Apples and oranges. There's a
Apples and oranges. There's a world of difference between saying in effect "If you stick around and tough it out, we, the coaches, will make you into badass football players" and saying in effect "You guys suck so bad there's just no way we, the coaches, can even begin to teach you anything about football."
In fact, those are saying the exact opposite things.
Of course, what Kill is saying may very well be true given the epic suckitude of Minnesota, but it's still poor form to blurt it out like that. And though this isn't quite the best analogy for obvious reasons, it's a poor workman who blames his tools. Isn't Kill basically also saying that he and his staff suck so bad at coaching they can't teach their players anything?
Got a quarter?
Program not living up
Program not coming close to living up to expectations. They built a new stadium, new coach, did a decent job at recruits and its all going down the toilet and they are being called the worse team in the conference....saying some stuff like this about your players might just be the final blow to this team and its fans
"The team..The team...The team"
one more quote
“We can’t practice the way I’m used to practicing. We don’t have the bodies in our program. We’re not gifted enough. We can’t do what we’ve done defensively. We got to quit trying to, because we can’t. We got to simplify some things,” Kill said.
This looks even worse given that he's coming from the MAC.
Eating is murder.
Yes, he's coming from the
Yes, he's coming from the MAC- which it turns out is actually a conference with superior talent to the team he's currently coaching. He's right that Minnesota is a step down from NIU.
Ann Arbor: now the permanent home of the Little Brown Jug
67-22-3 all-time
i have not kept tabs on Coach Kill this year
but his team has lost to North Dakota State and just got destroyed by Michigan. whatever he was saying was obviously not working. might as well give it a shot, make it clear to recruits that there is instant playing time and if some dead weight clears itself out of the way, all the better. really, what does he have to lose? he is probably a short timer based solely on his health issues.
Yikes
Talk about garnering sympathy, and then blowing it in a blaze of self-immolating asshattery.
Relax
I don't agree with the coach piling on his kids after such a humiliating beatdown, but people need to grow a set. This is football. Do you think these kids are going to melt because their coach said they weren't tough? He didn't single out a player so he can always say oh I didn't mean you.
I don't know when everyone started thinking all of our players need hugs. Our coaches at Michigan have been surly hardasses for 40+ years. If you haven't noticed quite a few of the most successful coaches have been dicks on the sideline and to the media. These kids hear far worse on a day to day basis right to their face and we have no idea what kind of relationship the coach has with his players or what kind of agenda he has when he says what he says.
But that's the difference...
saying something to a guys face in practice or on the sidelines is fine. Spouting off about what a bunch of wussies he has in the media to a national audience is on a different level, and something I don't ever remember hearing our "hard ass" coaches ever doing.
Why?
Who cares other than a bunch of whiners on the internet. Do you think this really effects the kids or they give a shit? If they think the guy is such a dick they'll leave. If they don't they'll stay. It's not going to ruin anyone.
Exactly. Why do people assume that
18 to 23 year old guys are so fragile that this kind of talk will somehow hurt their feelings, and is therefore harmful? He said the team wasn't tough, he didn't single out a player. Guess what? They were not tough. Maybe getting called out wiill help them get tougher--then again maybe it won't. I'm not endorsing the diatribe, but all this kid glove treatment that many advocate is really silly. Sometimes people need to be called out for their actions, and sometimes when called out, they assess themselves and respond. There is nothing wrong, at all, with being critical in the press about the failings of a team. Would I do it? Probably not, I do agree with most that that is best done in front of the team not in public. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong to do so.
"Everyone gets dumped Gabe. Let me give you some advice: a little coverup on your Adams Apple will make it appear smaller. Which will make you appear less like a transvestite."
He didn't call them out
He didn't call them out though, he dismissed them as failures. If he had said "my team isn't doing what they need to be doing to be tough" he could call them all the names in the world and it wouldn't be that big of a deal. What he said was that there won't be tough kids on the team until the current guys leave and he can recruit his own guys. I don't think that's very likely to get anyone to work harder, and it's definitely not calling them out.
Kill needs to take accountability for his team. If they can't tackle, that's his fault and he should acknowledge that instead of just saying that they're never going to be able to tackle.
Go Blue!
Exaggeration
You really think Kill thinks his whole team has no toughness and he needs all new players? You don't see this as a motivational ploy? Be real. Kill has been coaching for 20-30 years and has had success wherever he has gone and he has had success at all those stops. I think he knows what he is doing in trying to motivate his team. The guy left the hospital and was on the sidelines 2 days after. I think if someone is allowed to comment on toughness it would be him.
Do you not see that it's also
Do you not see that it's also an exceedingly convenient way of passing responsibility? Saying he can't coach these kids to tackle? Or be tough? Do you think, to crib one of your examples, that Parcells would have ever claimed that he couldn't teach Harry Carson to tackle?
wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog
Yes, I agree.
While I defended his doing so (even while not necessarily endorsing it) I do agree that the missing element, if he were to say such things, was an inclusion of he and his coaches in the statements. It can sound like passing the buck.
I'm ready to cut him tons of slack however, he's dealing with health issues that would sorely try any of us and our patience, tolerance, etc.
"Everyone gets dumped Gabe. Let me give you some advice: a little coverup on your Adams Apple will make it appear smaller. Which will make you appear less like a transvestite."
I've learned that the best way to get players to play hard for you is to insult them in public.
It works every time.
Twitter - Recruiting Update: May 13