I've learned that the best way to get players to play hard for you is to insult them in public.
It works every time.
I've learned that the best way to get players to play hard for you is to insult them in public.
It works every time.
That only works if you specifically mention their names, though..
Kill should have removed the M from their helmets....You know, make them EARN IT
the score & situations were reversed
What would you want Hoke to say?
Kill may be playing to the fan base a bit here...he should protect his players, but they really did not play well on saturday
um...don't know about you, but I wouldn't want our coach putting down the players no matter how bad they're playing. What does that accomplish?
agrees with you.
I believe Hoke would say (and has said things like this) that: "We've got to get tougher."
That means he's including himself and the coaches while not blaming the players entirely and implying that the whole team/program has to get tougher.
Kill basically said that his current players can't get the job done because they don't have it within them to be tough. In essence he said, "These players aren't tough, and as long as they're here, they won't be tough. I'm going to recruit tough players, but the team won't be tough until the current players are gone." Yikes.
but...I don't think Kill wants to start saying that he is the reason the team stinks on ice
He just got there...its a selfish move, but he honestly believes his cupboards are bare
even though what he said was not PC and probably not in the best interests of anyone, I think he was spot on
Minny may have good kids and I hope they all graduate and stay out of trouble and become leaders or legends, but they can't tackle
Magnus don't you think every player on the roster has heard worse in practice? You guys are right, denegrating a player will never work when it comes to motivation.
Bill Parcells-Is she hurt again?
Jim Schwartz-Taking that penalty was stupid. Stupid.
Bo Schembechler- You're Fat
This is no big deal stop being a bunch of daisies making a big deal out of nothing.
When Jerry Kill has the same clout as Bill Parcells, then it might be okay.
As it is, he's basically a no-name coach with success at some smaller schools who's suffered multiple seizures this year. Not that there's anything wrong with medical problems, but you've got a coach who can't go two weeks without having a seizure who's never accomplished anything big in the college football world...and he's saying that all of his players are wusses and the team won't be better until they're all gone.
Also, all the guys you mentioned (except Bo) were pro coaches who coached pros in a professional league...and Bo finished coaching 22 years ago. Bear Bryant was a successful coach, too. Maybe it would be okay if Jerry Kill did a remake of "Junction Boys."
I don't know the facts, but I saw the movie. Seemed pretty brutal, and so?
Magnus I have no idea what you are arguing.
So you are saying if a coach is really successful he is allowed to be an asshole, but if you suck you have to be nice? That's pretty screwed up. I'll let all of the parents of the kids I coach aware of that rule.
"Parents I want you to know I will treat your kids with respect and try my best to put them in a position to achieve their goals, but if we win the championship I got the green light to be lunatic and I'll be allowed to swear and humiliate the kids."
People can use all the pyschoanalysis they want, but when you are asking people to put themselves at risk physically for the greater good you need to install toughness and it's not always going to be positive. That's just the way it is.
that are under a certain age have grown up under the self-esteem movement's auspices, whose basic tenet is that you have to build confidence in someone before they can succeed. Most of us grew up with that and the majority subscribe to that philosophy. So positive encouragement and reinforcement are at a premium, negative reinforcement is frowned upon as either unproductive or just "mean." I happen to disagree completely with that philosophy, and think that people are a lot tougher and more resilient than they way most would treat them. And that success and self-esteem comes from accomplishment, not from being full of pride prior to doing anything.
Like it or not, that's the way the world works. If you're a nobody and you're an asshole, people are going to think you're an asshole. If you're a somebody and you're an asshole, people are going to think you're an asshole...but an asshole worth following.
Regardless, what you didn't address is that you referenced a bunch of professional coaches who get paid to make their players tough. One of the roles of a coach who leads amateur young men is to be a leader and absorb some of the blame; Kill seems to be passing off the blame elsewhere. That's just not good leadership, in my opinion.
I don't think anyone's overreacting. It's a discussion about a comment made by a coach. Nobody's asking for a public apology or a firing or anything. We're just questioning whether it was an appropriate comment for a coach.
You're right that in this world if you are successful you have more room to be a jerk.
I disagree with the pro coaches making people tough though. Pro coaches have no time for such bs. If you are not tough(or really freakin talented) in the pros they just leave you behind and go to the next phase. College is the exact last place where maybe your life can get straightened around or your coach can bring something out of you that you didn't know you had. We've seen this at Michigan. Plenty of players have had moments of doubt or did not perform to their capability, but came out better players/people due to hard coaching.
A. Arrington- You think Lloyd was tough on him? I want to say he did say something public about his knuckleheadness when he was suspended or when he was let back.
B. Graham- It appears that someone at Michigan had an effect on him. He was out of shape and inconsistent his 1st 2 years. It appears he may have taken to Barwis's with his body transformation.
This discussion has gotten off track , but basically what I am saying is that if you have 100 kids the key to being a great coach is finding what motivates each one of those kids and getting them to perform at a level they could not reach without being properly pushed. Each kid is different and each team is different and at times during the season you may need a hug and at other times you may need a kick in the ass. Both are needed and both are effective and we have no idea what place Minnesota is in.
This just hits home to me because I've had 2 close friends my whole life we all played sports together and each one of us took to coaches completely different. My wrestling coach was a Bobby Knight and I loved him, my 1 buddy had no time for yelling and he told him to take a hike and quit. Was that great coaching? No, because he lost a good player, because he couldn't adapt.. Was it good coaching for me? Yes.
The key for these coaches is to find the players that match his personality so he doesn't have to waste as much time tending to players feelings. RR always talked about finding guys who really loved it because he was going to be hard on them so they really had to love it.
I don't agree with what Kill did so I'm going to stop, but the hand wringing about "oh the kids" just got under my skin.
I'm not saying pro coaches MAKE people tough. I'm saying they can say all kinds of things and pro athletes have to just deal with it because they're (usually) getting paid millions of dollars. And those pro coaches don't typically call out the blue collar, backup middle linebacker/special teamer; they call out the receivers or prima donna running backs or cornerbacks.
Regardless, I agree that hard coaching works for some kids...but the kids you mentioned at Michigan were Arrington and Graham, neither of whom was ever publicly called "weak" or "a loser" or "a girl" or anything negative. They were dealt with appropriately as individuals...
...which is why painting your entire team with such a broad brush stroke as "We're not tough" is a bad idea. Players A, B, C, and D might not be tough...but what about players E, F, and G? Now you've insulted those guys, too, and they might not respond well.
Do the Marines and Army Rangers hold press conferences to complain about their enlisted men?
There are all types of leaders, in the military, football, and everyday life.
Given this is a volunteer military, the leadership theory that is taught is discipline behind closed doors / praise in public. How it gets applied in practice, depends on who the leader is. Of course boot camp is a different things as well.
On the flipside, there are some people who respond to being called out in public.
So a really good leader understands his people and how to motivate them in what situation.
Bo Schembechler- You're Fat
There is a difference here. Bo didn't hold a press conference to tell the media that Dierdorf was fat. He said it behind closed doors. It only made the rounds years later.
quit, with the awareness that the necessary toughness isn't in them to begin with?
Who knows, maybe he wants to drive a few out. Scorched earth policy could backfire, big time.
and I say this from recent experience. I would just say I wanted the coach fired and hire some one who can coach. Then I would leave a nice note for my family and jump off a cliff.
wow really? that sucks for the kids on his team.
Turns out the coach also clubs the baby seals he's supposed to be protecting.
They did everything wrong
Kill is trying hard to turn around (what's worse than a tire fire?) a program
Part of that is coach speak...he can always say he was talking about someone else
I give him credit for trying to keep his team's spirits up during the game (he called them over before entering the tunnel at the half and had a pep talk)...the coaches on the sidelines seemed to cheer whenever Minny made a half decent play (usually on 1st or 2nd down)
Minny is a real bad situation right now for a coach, he doesn't have a lot of options
His main problem is realizing he is coaching in the big 10 and everything he says is blown up...just needs to be a bit more refined in his comments
You can't make players tough? You have to recruit tacklers...you can't teach players how to tackle? Our coaching staff would tell you that is complete BS. I can understand the guy is frustrated but he has to take some of the responsibility for that. I feel bad for those players.
Can't make players tougher...someone should send him film on the 1969 Michigan Wolverines.
Forget the '69 team (actually don't, but for the sake of this post, do) the 2011 defense that just abused Minnesota seems a hell of a lot tougher than last year.
I didn't think we weren't tough last year, just perpetually confused and struggling at fundamentals
have to do with fundementals... If you can't teach a player to tackle, you don't belong in coaching.
I'm sure Kill and his staff are decent coaches, but if your players aren't tackling right, you don't necessarily scrap the defense... Michigan's defense is a great example of that, we were awful, and until this year I can't remember the last time I saw a group of winged helmets converge on the ball and tackle well but that's what they're doing now.
Wow ... I've got to imagine he would like to get this back. This is the opposite of coachspeak.
whats the other side of the famous quote?
Those who stay will be champions
yes, the students who tough it out, give everything they have will be a champion
but what about the kids who leave?
I know Kill did not say it very well, but he has a team of the guys who did not stay (they just haven't left yet) and he did not recruit them. Kill was just too honest
captains of industry." Please don't give our sign to the opposition.
I don't think your point of view is going to float.
A coach is honest when it makes his team better. This does nothing for his team. Kill screws the pooch here. There is no other way to take this.
Apples and oranges. There's a world of difference between saying in effect "If you stick around and tough it out, we, the coaches, will make you into badass football players" and saying in effect "You guys suck so bad there's just no way we, the coaches, can even begin to teach you anything about football."
In fact, those are saying the exact opposite things.
Of course, what Kill is saying may very well be true given the epic suckitude of Minnesota, but it's still poor form to blurt it out like that. And though this isn't quite the best analogy for obvious reasons, it's a poor workman who blames his tools. Isn't Kill basically also saying that he and his staff suck so bad at coaching they can't teach their players anything?
Program not coming close to living up to expectations. They built a new stadium, new coach, did a decent job at recruits and its all going down the toilet and they are being called the worse team in the conference....saying some stuff like this about your players might just be the final blow to this team and its fans
“We can’t practice the way I’m used to practicing. We don’t have the bodies in our program. We’re not gifted enough. We can’t do what we’ve done defensively. We got to quit trying to, because we can’t. We got to simplify some things,” Kill said.
This looks even worse given that he's coming from the MAC.
Yes, he's coming from the MAC- which it turns out is actually a conference with superior talent to the team he's currently coaching. He's right that Minnesota is a step down from NIU.
but his team has lost to North Dakota State and just got destroyed by Michigan. whatever he was saying was obviously not working. might as well give it a shot, make it clear to recruits that there is instant playing time and if some dead weight clears itself out of the way, all the better. really, what does he have to lose? he is probably a short timer based solely on his health issues.
Talk about garnering sympathy, and then blowing it in a blaze of self-immolating asshattery.
I don't agree with the coach piling on his kids after such a humiliating beatdown, but people need to grow a set. This is football. Do you think these kids are going to melt because their coach said they weren't tough? He didn't single out a player so he can always say oh I didn't mean you.
I don't know when everyone started thinking all of our players need hugs. Our coaches at Michigan have been surly hardasses for 40+ years. If you haven't noticed quite a few of the most successful coaches have been dicks on the sideline and to the media. These kids hear far worse on a day to day basis right to their face and we have no idea what kind of relationship the coach has with his players or what kind of agenda he has when he says what he says.
saying something to a guys face in practice or on the sidelines is fine. Spouting off about what a bunch of wussies he has in the media to a national audience is on a different level, and something I don't ever remember hearing our "hard ass" coaches ever doing.
Who cares other than a bunch of whiners on the internet. Do you think this really effects the kids or they give a shit? If they think the guy is such a dick they'll leave. If they don't they'll stay. It's not going to ruin anyone.
18 to 23 year old guys are so fragile that this kind of talk will somehow hurt their feelings, and is therefore harmful? He said the team wasn't tough, he didn't single out a player. Guess what? They were not tough. Maybe getting called out wiill help them get tougher--then again maybe it won't. I'm not endorsing the diatribe, but all this kid glove treatment that many advocate is really silly. Sometimes people need to be called out for their actions, and sometimes when called out, they assess themselves and respond. There is nothing wrong, at all, with being critical in the press about the failings of a team. Would I do it? Probably not, I do agree with most that that is best done in front of the team not in public. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong to do so.
He didn't call them out though, he dismissed them as failures. If he had said "my team isn't doing what they need to be doing to be tough" he could call them all the names in the world and it wouldn't be that big of a deal. What he said was that there won't be tough kids on the team until the current guys leave and he can recruit his own guys. I don't think that's very likely to get anyone to work harder, and it's definitely not calling them out.
Kill needs to take accountability for his team. If they can't tackle, that's his fault and he should acknowledge that instead of just saying that they're never going to be able to tackle.
You really think Kill thinks his whole team has no toughness and he needs all new players? You don't see this as a motivational ploy? Be real. Kill has been coaching for 20-30 years and has had success wherever he has gone and he has had success at all those stops. I think he knows what he is doing in trying to motivate his team. The guy left the hospital and was on the sidelines 2 days after. I think if someone is allowed to comment on toughness it would be him.
Do you not see that it's also an exceedingly convenient way of passing responsibility? Saying he can't coach these kids to tackle? Or be tough? Do you think, to crib one of your examples, that Parcells would have ever claimed that he couldn't teach Harry Carson to tackle?
While I defended his doing so (even while not necessarily endorsing it) I do agree that the missing element, if he were to say such things, was an inclusion of he and his coaches in the statements. It can sound like passing the buck.
I'm ready to cut him tons of slack however, he's dealing with health issues that would sorely try any of us and our patience, tolerance, etc.
I agree. I would have preferred the head coach express his sentiments in a different way, but I don't think what he said is over the top, given their circumstances. Their talent level isn't good and he's right about recruiting toughness. Some guys can get by at the college level with subpar fundamentals but have the right mentality. And the team as a whole isn't athletically gifted to the level that you need them to be in order to be competitive. I know it's a slam on the players, but it's directed more towards Brewster and his recruiting performance. It sucks for the players to hear this, but I can't pretend to know how his players feel about him and how he feels about the players, on an emotional level, from a short quote.
I know our team is struggling now and we need to get tougher and focus on fundamentals. We have to make sure everyone goes out there and plays their assignments.
He's making it out to be like it's the players fault their bad. Like he has nothing to do with it. I'm sure if they were 5-0 he would take the accolades, so when you're 1-4 you have to take the jeers as well. Kind of disappointed a coach able to get to this high of a level as a coach in the B1G and place blame like this. Bad form Kill, bad form....
could come, too, and it's not going to fix some of the problems they have on defense.
The guy is a genius when it comes to dealing with the media.
"If I had known how bare our cupboard was this year, I would have focused more on the Florida opportunity. I feel as though I inherited the same situation Rich Rodriguez did several years ago and we all know how that turned out. I promise you this, I will clean house after this year and the players who depart will have a tough time making a JC team.
Some of you may not know but I put up my 6 year old for adoption due to his lack of toughness and confidence when he enrolled in Kindergarten. He did not have what it takes to be successful, he didn't know the alphabet, couldn't count to 10, was shy and bashful in class and did terrible in the school play."
foot meet mouth.
im not sure how this really helps a team's morale, especially after that beatdown last weekend. it definitely could have been more PC.
In fairness to Kill, and I agree his comments came off poorly, he was probably irked by Tim Brewster's constant bullshitting about the condition the program he left to Kill and some of the other things Brewster did that made Kill's job tougher. Apparently 25 players were academically ineligible when Kill took over. Brewster has also made some stunning statements:
“This is the same group of kids that beat Illinois and Iowa. Same group of kids that played well to start the season at USC.”
“That’s a very talented football team that’s at the University of Minnesota right now. Coach Kill is very fortunate and he knows that,” Brewster told the Daily at Big Ten football media days in Chicago in July
Brewster told the Daily in July that his greatest disappointment was that the Gophers would be going to the Rose Bowl and he would not be there to lead them. Brewster denied making those comments when reached by phone Tuesday.
Minnesota isn't Michigan. That team is freaking terrible and that team QUIT in the first quarter against us. QUIT.
That's on both the coaches and the players. Jerry Kill has a good reputation for getting a lot out of kids and he's beaten cancer. I've seen those players absolutely positively quit without a modicum of pride in a conference game and that was ridiculous.
I would be upset if Hoke did this but then this is Michigan.
but...If I was a Gopher fan I would not mind the coach saying he has no chicken to make chicken salad
Those kids quit. Those receivers were going through the motions and wondering if they would have to bother looking like they were going to try the catch the ball. That's the worst effort I've seen from a big ten team in my life.
I feel like some people are more outraged than normal because they didn't like it when RR said something similar. Their team just got obliterated and pushed around the field by us and a division 1 team. They are big boys, I think they can handle hearing they have sucked and need to get tougher
Too many cats?
A cat in the house?
Its one thing to say we need to get tougher, we're not tough, etc. Its another thing to outright say the kids on your team will never be tough enough and will never know how to tackle becuase the coach before him didn't recruit those kind of kids.
I don't know why the title of this thread is about toughness, Kill was primarily bemoaning the lack of talent and bodies on his roster. The toughness angle was one sentence and probably rates behind acdemic discipline in Kill's problem list.
Here are Minnesota's top issues based on my reading of Kill's statements
2.Lack of bodies
3. Discipline, specifically academic discipline
Also, it appears Kill believes he can instill toughness but he can't because he doesn't have the bodies to practice as he would like.
He added they are unable to practice harder to gain toughness due to personnel limitations
It's his first season, so he's not in any danger of losing his job. And he has a huge excuse - his health condition has surely affected his ability to do his job. So why trash the players? It'd be one thing if he were saying "This team isn't where we want it to be," but he's basically guaranteeing that they'll never get there with this roster. That's not going to inspire confidence.
Why would you want to instill confidence in them....they just got blanked 58-0 and lost to a division 1 team (or is it fcs? I can never remember). If this happens in back to back weeks, it isn't going to be sunshine and lollipops. He is trying to motivate them....why tiptoe around the fact they are one of the worst teams in college football?
Most coaches will tell you that the time to be hardest on your team is after a win. After a loss, you've got to pick them back up. That goes all the moreso after a blowout loss. The Gophers' confidence is probably shot right now, and still they've got to play seven more games. Kill needs to give them a reason to believe in themselves.