Jarron Cumberland to CIncy
https://twitter.com/clutchman34/status/616261833083756544
Interesting given we were thought to have a great chance with him. I wonder if JB even offered. Also wonder if this says anything about Battle recruitment.
Missing a 4-star SG is a bummer, but we're probably going to get as good or better of a player with that scholly.
Odd that Michigan hasn't offered given their interest, but I'm not terribly disappointed. I just don't think Cumberland has the athleticism to get separation against good, athletic B1G defenders and that's something that's really hurt Michigan at times.
of the use of screens in the Michigan offense but he said he wasn't great at creating shots on his own.
Yeah, I heard that. I think Sam tends to be a bit over-optimistic when talking about guys who may end up here. If you're playing a team like OSU, who generally has tall/athletic defenders who can switch on screens, you need to be able to create your own. Hard for me to get excited about a guy who, IMO, would have a tough time against the better teams in the B1G.
suggested he was coming on as a player, but I wasn't wild about his game. There's a tendency to color it as a failure for Beilein every time some player mentioned in connection with the program doesn't end up here, but. . . it's the teams you end up, many off-hours later, putting on the floor.
Well if he's not great at creating his own shot Cincinnati is the perfect landing spot. Their offenses have been brutal under Cronin (probably wasn't much better under Huggins).
As a UC basketaball fan, hard to argue that their offense has mostly been terrible under Mick. But the issue isn't entirely scheme-related. When he had to rebuild the program from almost literally zero (1--ONE--player on scholarship when he took over), he prioritized defense, since that was a quicker route to getting back on track without access to high-level recruits.
The result is that they've had a bunch of athletic dudes who can't shoot the ball. They've been able to generate plenty of open looks from the perimeter, but haven't had many, if any, pure shooters during Mick's tenure. Hopefully Cumberland will help to change that.
/end UC thread hijacking.
IMO, Sam Webb could not be more wrong on this. Battle is a perfect fit for JB's offense. Cumberland is not.
Cumberland is more like Carlton Brundidge. Just a better outside shot, but not in the same area code of Battles.
Cumberland would not have been a good fit.
Happy he picked Cincy. JB needs better
Someone else can press the "commence panic" button. Not me. I'm staying calm about this news, mostly because our 2-deep is in great shape next year* and I want to think happy thoughts.
*I fully realize Cumberland wouldn't affect our 2-deep next year, but I just want to remain happy today.
2016 recruiting and next year's team are completely separate issues.
I fully realize Cumberland wouldn't affect our 2-deep next year, but I just want to remain happy today.
I know, and that's why I stated the above quote. 2016 recruiting has nothing to do with next year's team, but *thinking* about lost 2016 recruits makes me sad. I want to stay happy, ergo I will focus my thoughts on next year's awesome roster. Don't rain on my parade, Ronnie Kaye. I have ways to haunt you.
Michigan told him they were waiting until the the end of July. I believe July is called an evaluation period because of the AAU teams playing. Sam said he felt Michigan wanted to look at some other options before desiding because there are always some players who emerge during this period and I assume this is where Beilein's eye for hidden talent is at it's best.
Sam thought Cumberland would fit very well in Michigan's system but he wasn't the only option they had.
It's also possible that Cumberland is using Cincy as a placeholder in case Michigan doesn't come through.
The scenario you raise in your last paragraph seems doubtful to me, based on my reading of his and his coach's comments in this article on his commitment to Cincinnati.
This is pretty interesting. I wonder if JB is confident that Battle will still go to Michigan.
I still think we have a legitimate shot at keeping Battle. The fact he hasn't committed anywhere else yet is somewhat of a good sign. It's possible with Cumberland that the coaches hedged on giving him a commitable offer because they felt we were still very much in the game with Battle. Again, maybe this is just blind optimism on my part.
Im in the same boat. Battle would have absolutely flourished in JBs offense. Just killed it. The decommit of Battle really floored me because i was so excited to watch him in this offense.
Battle will do well whereever he goes, but i just think he would have been so efficient here.
I think offering Cumberland would have been a sign that they gave up on Battle. It's harder to read as much into not offering him. For a 4* Ohio prospect, he doesn't have much of an offer list; Cinci, Xavier, Purdue and FSU. It's quite possible they think they'll do better even if Battle is out of the picture.
And I know it doesn't mean anything but I think Cumberland is one of the worst 4 stars I've seen in some time. There is a lot wrong with his game and strength is the big reason he gets away with his lack of leaping ability at the high school level. The strength thing will catch up to him at the College level
Get battle back or most likely find a two star sleeper.
There's still time to pull up, but we're rocketing towards the mountain.
I still have faith in Beilein's recruiting, but only by a hair. I don't doubt he has a plan, but it had better work.
We have done as well at those positions with lower rated guys as with higher rated guys. Compare Robinson/Irvin who were 5 star recruits with some services with stauskas, hardaway, levert, dawkins who were low 4 stars or worse. I am confident we will continue to have good wing players regardless of how they are rated in high school.
At other positions, I'm more concerned, but not really at those spots.
There's an awful lot of time left for recruiting this class, nearly a year.
Most of Beilein''s higher ranked commits have come later than this in the cycle and the low ranked flyers haven't been offered until the following April.
I'm confident that a lot more posters here would be questioning Beilein's recruiting if Cumberland had just announced for Michigan. Beilein's aiming higher and that might just entail a little risk.
Aiming higher? Where? Who are we even in on outside of Winston? If Beilein is going to land a blue-chipper, he'll likely have to bring a decommit back in or start a process very late.
but Bruce Brown and Kevin Huerter have much better offer lists than Cumberland.
It could also be that they like their chances of finding someone better during the July evaluation period. It's even possible that if they don't, an offer might get Cumberland anyway. Cumberland's offer sheet is unimpressive for a 4*. I wouldn't be surprised to see him flip if he gets one of the offers he wants.
It's fair to assume that Beilein didn't offer Cumberland on his visit because he didn't want him to commit. That's either because he's still looking for a better fit or a better player.
Wow... we got recruits picking Cincy over UM now... what an interesting start to the day... first you got Harbaugh and Cowherd completely tanking an interview and now this...
Yeah no shit, i dont even care about apparel but can we please have the Nike announcement soon to have something "positive" to talk about. Distract the recruits with the gear and alternate uniforms they will be wearing. Something, anything, please!
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Michigan was very interested but never offered so not really.
So Beilein has a plan... right....
:(
I'll trust Beilein
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Did someone piss in your Cheerios?
We didn't offer the kid a scholarship so he didn't really choose Cincy over us, and that Cowherd interview was probably only perceived as terrible because Cowherd said it was terrible and tried to make Jim look bad at the end of it.
Neither of these are very big issues IYAM
No, but I did run out of Honey Bunches of Oats this morning.
It's been a rough day.
I don't know how many times it's going to take for Beilein to identify the guys he wants, inevitably get some who-dats, make them all into great players, and see them get drafted until people stop doubting what he's doing.
Beilein could win the next 5 tournaments and still the next time Beilein gets a 2* or misses on a 5* people will be like "Does Beilein have what it takes?.........."
FFS people
Has he earned that kind of blind faith though? He's only been to the second weekend of the tournament twice with us. He's missed the tourney altogether 3 times. Yeah he has a great eye for talent and a great ability to develop talent, but it hasn't really translated into sustained on-court success.
He missed the tourney in his first year with a group of a abysmal talent. No one was going to coach that team into the tournament. The second year that he missed was a let down given the lofty preseason rankings, but he was basically working with a group of guys that weren't his own (whom he had gotten into the tournament the prior year).
He's made the tournament four out of the last five years, including a trip to the National Championship and a trip to the Elite Eight. Last year was an utter disappointment and Beilein's lack of recruiting should shoulder some of that, but to say it hasn't translated into sustained on-court success is ignorant at best, especially when looking at it historically. Michigan has had more success under Beilein than any other coach, save Steve Fisher.
I don't know that he deserves blind faith quite yet, not many coaches do, but I don't think he deserves anywhere near the amount of criticism that he currently receives.
What are the criticisms of him that don't ring true? Drawing up in-bound plays against pressure - we DO have an exceptionally hard time with this. Foul policy - hurt us in a ton of first halves last season. Recruiting - inexplicably still much better before the 2013 run than after it.
You can say you are happy overall with Beilein and many of those frustrated with the items above would agree with you. Because a man doesn't deserve hot seat talk doesn't mean the collective head should be in the sand about everything.
I was taking issue with the fact that the OP said Beilein hasn't built any sustained on-court success, which is incredibly inaccurate when looking at it in a historical context. It's also difficult to quantify "sustained on-court success" when the guy spent 2-3 of his 8 years rebuilding what was in place. Since then he's taken Michigan to heights it hasn't seen since the early to mid 90s.
The biggest complaint around here about Beilein, bar none, is his recruting, which to me is overblown. I won't deny that Michigan has whiffed on several big names. Whether we want to accept it or not, Michigan is not a traditional powerhouse in basketball and, for most kids, hasn't been relevant on a national level like a Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, MSU, etc. during their lifetimes. The program is still feeling the effects of being irrelevant for almost 15 years. Just because Michigan has experienced recent success doesn't automatically make them a household name amongst basketball's elite recruits...ask Butler or Wisconsin.
And all the success that Beilein and Michigan have experienced has come on the backs of some rather unheralded recruits. The same type of recruits that people come into these threads and piss and moan about. One down year (largely due in part to multiple key injuries and NBA departures) and people act like the ship is sinking. That is the type of criticism that I don't think he deserves.
Foul issue is also overblown and is mainly cited by people who are upset about losing and want to armchair quarterback to make themselves feel better about a loss. There was maybe one game this year where that was a credible argument (vs. MSU). There's been one game in Beilein's entire tenure where I've been upset with his foul policy and that was the championship game (taking Burke out in the first half). However Burke's removal coincided with Spike Albrecht channeling his inner Reggie Miller.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men's_Division_I_Tournament_bids_by_…
This should give you a good idea of why Michigan has such a hard time recruiting. There are two schools listed on there that have less tournament appearances than Michigan and consistently pull better recruiting classes: Memphis and Florida. Both of those teams have been more successful and nationally relevant than Michigan in the past 15 years.
It sounds like you're complaining just to complain. We have a turnover off an inbounds play....he has a foul policy that we have no idea the benefits of not doing it because he sticks to it....we don't land a couple 5 star guys. Every one of those things could be different, but who gives a fuck. If beilein was giving away games because his coaching sucks or if he never developed anyone and we had one good season in 5-those are things to bitch about. After he has gotten up and running, he has been to the championship game, won the big 10 a couple times and even won it by 3 games (something Wisconsin didn't even do last year). He has one bad year with our 2 best players injured and their spots filled by freshmen because all our other best players left early for the NBA and all the sudden we bitch about stupid things. How about this:
-how many games has he cost us with an inbounds play? Now compare that to how many games he has won us by being a good coach
-do the same thing with his foul policy. A hint-you won't be able to tell either because that is just an opinion and we have no idea how games would end up if it happened differently. Your feeling is that his foul policy cost us games. You can bitch about that all you want, you have no idea if leaving someone in or taking them out would matter. Everyone thought sitting Burke in the NC game would be ridiculous, until spike goes on a three point barrage and keeps us in the game.
-the recruiting argument is actually verifiable and it is extremely stupid. We can start this year if we wanted: 2 five star forwards, a top 50 PG, a future NBA first rounder, and a top 100 big man, with Doyle, Rahk, and Dawkins, coming off the bench. Who cares if he misses on Blackmon and booker and everyone else he missed on. That is, based solely on recruiting rankings, starting 5 with the only person not a top 100 guy being the guy that will be a possible lottery pick. Sometimes I wonder if people actually watch basketball or just look at something like losing battle and think somehow this has any negative implication on beilein. He currently has two top 100 big men committed and all anyone can say is that he can't recruit because Battle is looking elsewhere. Ugh, sometimes I hate our fanbase
The in-bounding struggles cost us the Northwestern game last year, which may have been the difference in not making the NIT. It also played a big hand in the loss to Villanova since under duress we threw it to Donnal - the worst option on the floor - and he missed a 1-and-1. That game would have been big for momentum and our resume. It DAMN NEAR cost us the Sweet 16 game against Tennessee. That the problem was not rectified last offseason is pretty astonishing.
Your apologies for the foul policy -- where to start?! Yes, I'm going on a crazy limb and saying that Zak Irvin with two fouls is having a better effect on a game than Sean Lonegran with no fouls. But hey, because I didn't see it I wouldn't know! And your example of Spike in the national championship game is the biggest outlier one could find. It's akin to saying it was a great idea to place a hitter with a .600 OPS in clean-up because he happened to run into a couple homers.
In the post you replied to, I never said Beilein's recruiting has been bad on the whole. I said that it inexplicably got a lot worse after the run in '13, which to this point it clearly has.
No hyperbole, yours is one of the worst posts I have ever seen. Get out of here with that garbage.
Lol, yes, you blaming Beilein's inbounds play for Donnal's missed free throw to lose a game is great example of your awesome posts. The problem with your shitty posts (and you have some fucking awful ones) is that you're argumentative just to be argumentative. It has to be Beilein's inbounds plays losing us a game, right? That one play and not starting 3 true freshmen and playing zero seniors. Not only did you blame a loss on a successful inbounds play and not the missed one-and-one, you said it almost cost us a game. That's how I know you don't really want to discuss things, you just want to argue. When you resort to an inbounds play almost costing us a game, aren't you basically saying they matter so little that one can go wrong at the end of the game and the team can still win because, you know, it's one play? On a scale of things I care about, Beilein's game management and overall game plan come in at the top. One inbounds play means jack shit. I mean, unless it almost costs you a tournament game. Then it is horrible!
And you completely missed the point about the foul policy. I'm not surprised. Also, your baseball analogy is shit. That isn't even close to the same thing and I'm not really sure you understand why.
Finally, your point on recruiting is your worst point. Here is what we have picked up since 2013:
Wagner-4 star and possible one or two-and done
Chatman-borderline 5 star
Wilson-top 100 4 star
Dawkins, Doyle, Rahk-all three stars, all started numerous games last year due to injury. All played very well as true freshmen
Davis and Teske-both 4 star, top 100 Big men
You want to explain how that is worse? Based strictly off recruiting numbers, it is probably better than the team that made it to the finals. But you're probably right, inexplicably way worse, right? You're a fuckin idiot
that DIDN'T EVEN OFFER YOU A SCHOLARSHIP (yet).
Freaking people looking for any reason to be negative.
Are so incredibly fragile
Over exaggeration on a sports blog? NO WAY!
I wasn't that impressed with him. He barely got any elevation on his jump shot and he did not appear very athletic to me.
Maybe that's harsh, but I'm comparing him to guys like Battle and Brown who we thought should be playing here.
"Game over man, game over!" All jokes aside, we will be all good once Cassius commits.
the milk's gone bad!
Haha.. 'The name's Hank, F***face'
though I can still haz a sad right
most likely didn't come here because of Harbaugh's interview on Cowherd.
/s