Understandable he's upset, and I think this is always going to be a tricky situation for whoever is in charge at UM
landing spot. will be interesting to see how he does.
Understandable he's upset, and I think this is always going to be a tricky situation for whoever is in charge at UM
Agree. Not much more to be said.
Is less of "the school," than the University President is.
MSC is representing the best interest of the school with this decision. The school is built on a reputation. That reputation was tarnished as a result of individuals who did not think of "the team" (or the school) when they made their selfish decisions.
There are consequences for behaviors, and while Jalen was not part of it, I hope he can accept it. The banners were brought down because major rules were broken. That has not changed.
I get your point but one could make an argument that the Fab Five was bigger than the school president, and bigger than Michigan. It was a phenomena that transcended athletics and shed light on a lot of issues, culturally, politically, and socially.
One could say mostly the same things about the Unabomber. I don't think that's a very good set of criteria.
Than The University of Michigan.
And they would be wrong.
No, they wouldn't.
The legions of rappers, celebrities, and kids all across the country wearing University of Michigan apparel who couldn't tell you a damn thing about U of M (especially in the 90s) would beg to differ.
This is true . . . but those rappers are all 40 years old now. Trey Burke was born in 1993. Tim Hardaway Jr. grew up around Juwan Howard and never realized he went to Michigan. The Fab Five are one of the great stories of college basketball lore, like Phi Slamma Jamma at Houston or the '85 Villanova team, but to the younger generation today they're just that - a story in the books. They're not bigger than the university now.
I can't help feeling that this whole debate comes down to Jalen, and to a lesser extent the other four, having a hard time coming to grips with the fact that their old celebrity status has faded. The fact that their basketball playing days have recently ended probably doesn't help things any. They want to make sure they're remembered, which I can understand, but that alone isn't reason to put up banners for games that have been vacated.
That wasn't the point though. The point was, at the time they were playing college basketball, you could easily make the argument that the Fab Five were bigger than Michigan athletics.
I realize there are a lot of people who are going to use old cliched stock line, "No one is bigger than the program!" but that's not always true.
They resonated with the whole of America in a way that certainly no Michigan team ever has, and maybe no college basketball team ever has. Culturally, they were a nuclear bomb, blasting hip hop into the mainstream of American society.
Of course the Fab Five were bigger than Michigan, they were bigger than sports.
"could easily make the argument that the Fab Five were bigger than Michigan athletics"
Sorry, I tend to think that no one is bigger than the team, the athletic department and certainly not the University. What they did put us on the map and earned us a decade + of basketball mediocrity.
Jalen needs to seriously grow up and realize Michigan basketball existed, very well, before he set foot on campus.
What they did for the African American community in helping to make black culture mainstream goes beyond the University of Michigan.
Even if you'd like to downplay the racial issues involved, you can't deny that they changed the face of basketball forever.
I never said they put the University of Michigan on the map, or any such nonsense.
It's my opinion that they were bigger than Michigan. The good, and the bad. They changed college sports forever.
I think you're going overboard with this argument here. See my post below.
If your statement is true why does anyone that is younger than the age of 40 think of the Fab Five when they think of Michigan basketball....Besides the '89 team, I cant think of one player other than Cazzie.. I know It hurts.. It been 20 yrs and we still talk about the Fab Five.. I have never had a single discussion about the '89 squad.. EVER
Go anywhere outside of big ten country, and try too talk about any specific Michigan sports team, football, basketball, whatever. Hardly anyone will know what you're talking about, or have any memories regarding any team, other than the Fab Five.
Not one single team resonates as much as the Fab Five.
20 years later, one little tweet leads to multiple 100+ comment threads, and heated discussion.
You do realize that 1) this is a board that obsesses over everything Michigan-related and 2) that this is one of the only times in school history we've gotten in trouble with the NCAA? It's not like there are legions of other Michigan teams out there trying to get removed banners put back up.
They were a memorable team, sure, but you're laying it on a little thick.
If your statement is true why does anyone that is younger than the age of 40 think of the Fab Five when they think of Michigan basketball
If you mean "Older than 30 and younger than 40" I'd agree. Younger than 30, not necessarily. It was interesting to hear the Michigan players' comments on the documentary when it came out a year ago. By and large, they hardly knew anything about the Fab Five - and these were players at the very same school.
We are closing down the nomination process for Post Of The Year. It's all over.
The Last Hoke, step up here and claim your prize. We'll call it the Hokey.
The legions of rappers, celebrities, and kids all across the country wearing University of Michigan apparel who couldn't tell you a damn thing about U of M (especially in the 90s) would beg to differ.
Because really, where would the University of Michigan be, without legions of rappers, celebrities, and kids all across the country wearing University of Michigan apparel, and who couldn't tell us a damn thing about the U of M?
To Jalen Rose: You can have your fucking $250,000 scholarship donation back, if you and Webber will simply reimburse the University for legal expenses only incurred in the NCAA investigation. Forget about the financial losses, the injuries to the University's reputation and the other pecuniary losses associated with the Fab Five's violations. We'll settle for legal fees alone. And come out ahead, compared to your 250k.
You don't get it, because you can't see their impact beyond Michigan.
This line illustrates the depth of your ignorance, "Because really, where would the University of Michigan be, without legions of rappers, celebrities, and kids all across the country wearing University of Michigan apparel, and who couldn't tell us a damn thing about the U of M?"
Do you hear that sound? That very faint, yet audible "whooshing" sound? That's the sound of my point flying over your head.
It's not about the rappers, or celebrities, or past popularity, and how they relate to today.
It's not about the University of Michigan.
They were bigger than Michigan for the period of time that they were at the University.
Their cultural and social impact is undeniable, particularly in bringing modern black culture and a lot of modern black issues into mainstream America's living room.
They illuminated a lot of the problems that we're still dealing with in American sports, particularly basketball, as well as a lot of issues we're still dealing with socially, and politically, in inner cities (but I've been trying not to go down those roads and remain as vague as possible).
If you don't understand this, then you need to start reading something other than the sports section.
If they're that important to society and culture (debatable), then we can read about it in AfroAmerican Studies classes. It also doesn't mean they didn't break the rules. It doesn't mean we should ignore the consequences of their actions. It doesn't mean we should celebrate our failure as an institution.
Learn from it, yes. Celebrate it, no.
If you can find a post of mine where I've stated that U of M ought to celebrate the Fab Five, then I'll give you an mgopoint.
The only thing I've really been talking about in this discussion is their impact on American culture at the time they were playing basketball. Everyone has been trying to box me in, and make it all about Michigan, attempting to force me into their insular paradigm while missing my original point.
Because I went to Michigan for three degrees because rappers like it and CHRIS WEBBER WORE BLACK SOCKS GODDAMMIT!!
I think you're going a little overboard here. Yes, the Fab Five were very trendy. But so was Georgetown in the mid-'80s and UNLV just before them. In many ways, the UNLV teams of Larry Johnson, Stacey Augmon and the rest really paved the way culturally for the Fab Five. They were arguably even more "counterculture," given that they played for a school that openly disregarded the rules.
There were two things about the Fab Five that really stood out: that they all started together as freshmen (in the Final Four, no less) and that they wore long, baggy shorts. But to say they were the first "hip hop team" in the country . . . I don't know about that. I think Rose's documentary plays up that angle a little too much. It's not like every team in the country was like the cast of Hoosiers before the Fab Five arrived. Hell, Michigan basketball had a rep in some quarters for being "ghetto" even before they arrived - remember the teams of the mid-'80s?
I've essentially answered this in other posts, but to point one specific comment in the above post.
They were one a of a few teams in the late 80s, early 90s who signified the arrival of modern black culture into mainstream American culture.
They helped to not only make it "OK" to be black in America, but "cool."
They also helped to highlight a lot of issues we are still dealing with today, in terms of sports, culture, race, poverty, etc.
There were good elements, there were bad elements, but they were a part of (and maybe at the forefront) of the zeitgeist that was sweeping the country at that time.
They were bigger than Michigan and it was bigger than them.
Please stop supporting the Fab 5 on this board. The group think has spoken and they are bad and must be shunned.
Never mind the fact that 20 years later virtually EVERY basketball fan remembers their names (paraphrasing Jalen here) and couldn't tell you two players off either the Duke or NC teams that beat them. Never mind the cultural shift they virtually singlehandidly engineered in college basketball ranging from their style of play to the clothes they wore. And please never mind the fact that outside of our collective circle few people give a damn or remember the violations - they remember 5 of the most exciting, dynamic and personable players to ever wear a uniform. OUR uniform.
They were bad and their collective accomplishments must be wiped from our memory lest we dare think about those days favorably.
Sorry but I agree with Jalen. Put the banners back up where they belong.
All due respect but who gives a shit if you can remember the names of the Duke and N. Carolina players that beat the Fab 5? Which teams are more respected - Michigan, N. Carolina or Duke. Which of the 3 has the best legacy?
It's not Michigan and that is the distinction that matters. Jalen is trying to make this about him when it is about the University - always!
Yes, really. Do you have a counterpoint you want to argue?
I'm just curious as to how you are trying to compare Michigan's basketball tradition against North Carolina and Duke. We are obvioiusly not on the same playing field as them and everyone knows it. Also, how is Jalen trying to make this whole issue about him? He's trying to get official recognition for the hard work that team put in. As I stated in a previous post, it's not all about Chris Webber. The fab Five would not have existed without Chris Webber. Yes, he scewed up, but let's not punish the whole team for the mistakes he won't admit. Jalen messed up as well, but he didn't lie about it. Let's give respect where it's due.
Do you also feel that "respect is due" to OSU's 2010 football team, USC's 2004 football team, and John Calipari's UMass and Memphis teams?
This is how it goes. If you have one ineligible player, the whole team pays the price. Strangely enough, no one here seems to have any kind of a problem seeing other schools get punished for the same issues.
I'm not making that comparison but Jalen repeatedly makes the comment "who remembers the names of the players who beat us? But you remember our name." That is Jalen elevating himself and the rest of the Fab 5 above the team (both theirs and ours) when he invokes individual recognition.
Also, Jalen admitted taking money. Not C Webb amounts but pretty large none the less.
I bet if he just showed contrition and shut about it for a little bit he would get what he wants. He needs to be patient.
What does contrition even matter at this point? Webber was declared ineligible. It really doesn't matter if he apologizes or not. You don't get vacated games restored because you say you're sorry.
I loved the guys, but honestly, there's no credible argument for putting the banners up. You don't recognize games that were taken away from you.
Granted, the only big name player from the 92-93 Carolina team was Eric Montross, but the 91-92 Duke team that beat Michigan was just as famous and significant...not for the same reasons mind you, but they were a phenomenon.
Grant Hill, Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley, Cherokee Parks, Thomas Hill, Antonio Lang...
I understand what you're saying but the Fab 5 really did usher in a whole new world of college basketball and young, black culture as a whole. Whether that is a good or bad thing can be debated
You do realize I support Jalen on this issue right? I was being sarcastic in my next to last paragraph.
I don't think any group of athletes could ever be deemed greater than the school they play(ed) for. Michigan is a progressive institution that values culture and diversity and the Fab Five fit that mold.
With that said, I think the cultural impact the Fab Five had on society deserves recognition and remembrance. Maybe the banners could at least be taken out of their boxes sitting in the Bentley Library and put on display in some fasion, possibly in the PDC, but not Crisler.
The 1965-66 Texas Western basketball team would like a word with you.
Let's dispell this ridiculous notion that players or teams can't be bigger than the institutions they play for, or the sports they play.
I get that it's a cute coaching maxim, to tell kids to keep them in line, and it gives the fans a sports boner, but it is incredibly false.
Jackie Robinson was bigger than baseball.
Muhammad Ali was bigger than boxing.
The 1971 Thundering Heard team was bigger than Marshall.
Lou Alicindor was bigger than UCLA.
Lou Boudreau pulling Bob Lemon in 1948, and putting in a 42 year old Satchel Paige for his first ever appearance in the majors.
There are countless examples of teams, and players transcending, and becomming bigger than sports, or the teams/schools they played for.
You cannot seriously compare the Fab 5 to Jackie Robinson, who broke the color lines in baseball and endured pure hell to play the game, and Ali, who sacrificed his career by protesting racial injustice and an unpopular war.
Being the first to wear baggy shorts, black socks and bring an attitude on the court does not elevate you to transcendental status.
Their impact in helping to bring modern black culture manstream, certainly was transcendental.
The way they highlighted a lot of the problems in modern collegiate sports, both institutionally, as well as racially, was also transcedental. Problems that we are still dealing with today.
The way they also highlighted a lot of issues within the African American community, and in inner cities in general, and white perceptions of black urban youth, also resonated then, and still does today.
Those kids happened to come along at the perfect time, and were caught up in the zeitgeist of the time. They were bigger than sports, and a lot of issues and discussion surrounding them was bigger than them.
think that the Fab 5 was that important to bring modern black culture into the mainstream. They were certainly a part of it, but to compare them to Jackie Robinson or even the Texas miners is asinine. By 1991 you already had substantial elements of hip hop culture on mainstream television. Bands like Public Enemy were already successful in the mainstream, hell John Connor is wearing a Public Enemy shirt in Terminator 2 (and if that's not conclusive evidence, I don't know what is!). NWA had already disbanded by 1991. The Raiders were in LA at the time (1984-94?) and had become synonomous with hip hop culture. The Fab 5 were not transcendental. Despite what ESPN's 30 for 30 or whatever told you.
And the very fact that the Fab Five wasn't included in the original 30 for 30 series would seem to be another argument against them. ESPN did not consider their story important enough to be among the 30 most significant of 1980-2010. It wasn't until Rose himself came forward to serve as producer that the Fab Five film was greenlighted. Were any of the original 30 for 30 films produced by their subject?
No offense, but this comment is incredibly dumb.
You do realize that it can take well over a year to write, film, edit, and complete a documentary, right?
Jalen's "Fab Five" documentary came out during the whole "30 for 30" series, so ESPN already knew Jalen was making it (hell they paid for it to be made and greenlighted it). So, logically, because Jalen was already making this documentary, there was no need to make a "30 for 30" on the Fab five.
Also, the 30 for 30 series was specifically about top filmmakers, making sports documentaries. Jalen wanted to make this film himself. He is not a top filmmaker, ergo, it was not a "30 for 30" doc.
Jalen wanted it to be his own thing. A , "the Fab Five, by the Fab Five, for the Fab Five" sort of deal.
Michigan has had success in athletics before they came and since. Michigan does not need to latch on to the fame, or infamy, that attaches to UM athletes that sources from outside the athletic activity itself. President Ford doesn't have a number retired in football because he was president. Several people believe that Michigan basketball should judge the merits of people who came through the program solely with respect to them as Michigan basketball players. As Judge Broomfield said at the Gandhi trial in 1921, "the law is no respector of persons, and is interested only in their character with respect to the law."
The place for acknowledgements concerning highlighting issues in modern collegiate sports, within the African American community and inner cities in general, and being caught up in the zeitgeist of the time is in TV specials, books, possibly college courses, and in all other media that discuss cultural history, anthropology and sociology, but possibly not the ceiling at Crisler, where many people still also have a memory of the long, painful hangover that was a part of that surreal trip through the eye of the cultural hurricane. The Fab Five, ultimately, did not necessarily help solidify or strengthen the hold of Michigan basketball on the planet, and people will differ on whether they want to remind themselves of what the Fab Five era did to the program.
as mine was that It's not about U of M.
What Zeitgeist are you taking about? The one from the early to mid 90's when the Cosby show, the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, Kris Kross and the cast of It's a Different World & Family Matters dominated our youth culture?
You're right - totally comparable to Ali and Jackie Robinson.
Again, you nailed me, and didn't completely whiff on the point at all.
I was directly comparing Chris Webber's plight to that of Jackie Robinson's. I tried to do it, but you caught me.
I was in no way responding to a larger point about how athletes and athletic teams can transcend sports, but you just jumped right in and called me to task for insinuating that the Fab Five brokered the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Here I thought I was going to get away with it, until you came riding in on your valiant white steed, shooting rainbows of truth, vanquishing my not at all totally misconstrued point that you made up yourself.
If I were to say something like, "The 1971 Marshall team playing football transcended football," you would be right there to drag my ass on the capet and make a spectacle of me.
"Are you saying that the Fab Five intentionally crashed the plane that a bulk of the Thundering Herd's team was on in 1970 so that they could write, direct, and produce the movie 'We Are Marshall' some 30 years later?"
Yes, internet smart guy, that is exactly what I'm saying.
I had been avoiding posting a snarky response to this, and tried to respond in a level headed manner, but alas, I have caved.....
Of course I was comparing the Fab Five to the accomplishments of Jackie Robinson and Muhammad Ali!
I was in no way simply responding to the fellow above's comment that no one player or team can be bigger than the program they play for. Nope, not at all.
I was directly equating Jalen Rose and Jackie Robinson, and you caught me. I tried to get away with it, but you, you, internet sluth. You alone had the capability to nail me, and boy did you nail me.
If I were to make a comment like, "What the 1980 USA men's hockey team did in beating the USSR transcended hockey," or, "What Jesse Owens accomplished at the 1936 olympic games transcended track and field," you would be right there to call me to task.
"Are you saying that the Fab Five single handedly beat Hitler and brought down the Soviet Union?"
Yes, internet smart guy, that is exactly what I'm saying......
I feel so much better now.
This situation is not as clear as you seem to make it out to be though.
Is it right to punish all for the bad acts of a few? Dunno. Is it true that those banners represent broken rules rather than a piece of Michigan's history? Dunno.
Regardless of how those banners were achieved, one could argue that they represent a part of the history of our program, albeit a dark part of that history. Here is a (poor) example: years after Germany finally came to their senses regarding the atrocities of the crimes their leaders and military had committed during the second World War, the country OUTLAWED the denial of those atrocities and MANDATED education to all German citizens of those atrocities. In other words, rather than hiding their mistakes and hoping that people forgot about them, they forced their mistakes to be known and accepted the fact that they had been made.
I am, of course, not actually trying to compare the Fab 5 to WWII Germany. But, hopefully you can understand my point.
I've been wondering recently if there could be some way to bring the banners back in a symbolic way. Maybe reverse their color schemes, put them on their own rafter separate from the others, hang them upside down, etc. This would allow them to be displayed, but with the message that they were ill-gotten.
Just thinkin' out loud.
I think that if they ever do put the banners back up, they ought to put them in a dark corner of Crisler, away from the other banners. This would be symbolic on many levels.
They would serve as a testament to the darkest part of Michigan's athletic history, but more than that, a quiet defiance. It happened, and we will not run away from it.
But the banners should be celebratory...and just by looking at this debate, you can see the topic creates divisiveness. We cannot celebrate something this tainted. That is not our fault, and its not the faulty of most of the players.
Honestly, at this point, I don't want to celebrate anything to do with CWebb. He broke my heart...and not even for taking the money (although I'm pissed about that too).. He lied. He never, ever acted like a man....
Poor CWebb....boo effing who... They sold his Jerseys. He was entitled to all that cash, and how dare anyone question him.
Sorry to those who disagree, and maybe this is arrogant, but this is Michigan. The Fab Five is not bigger than Michigan.
((stepping off high horse))
The punishment was the the banners had to be down for a period of time.
I agree that you're judged by the company you keep (and tell my kids the same thing). However, there were LOTS of good things about the Fab 5 era as well. By deciding to not put the banners up, MSC is denying the good things that did happen. Why not put the banners back up? Is it to punish the Fab 5 who were involved with the problem or is it to dissuade others from following the same path by not honoring or glorifying ANY part of the Fab 5 era?
Another thin parallel is jail time. If a convict can't get a job after they've served their time, aren't they truly being punished more than just the jail time? Is that maybe the intent? This is a VERY complicated and thorny issue as people assess our justice system differently if they believe it should be punative or rehabilitative. Is the purpose of jail (and the stigma of being a convict) supposed to be so punative that it discourages OTHERS from similar crimes, or is it supposed to be a period that rehabilitates the convict such that they're fit to re-enter society?
I think neither our justice system nor the NCAA are very clear on these issues. As a result both MSC and Jalen can both reasonably have different views on what should happen next.
The punishment was the the banners had to be down for a period of time.
No, the 10-year thing was about how long Webber, Taylor, Traylor and Bullock were banned from associating with Michigan. It had nothing to do with the banners.
When games are vacated, it's not temporary. It's permanent. The NCAA ruled that Webber became an ineligible player, so anything we accomplished with him can't be recognized. You can argue that this is unfair to his teammates, but the NCAA has always operated that way. A lot of the players on the 2010 OSU football team probably didn't get all the benefits Terrelle Pryor did, but their season is wiped out, too.
Webber being ineligible means anything that was accomplished with him won't be recognized by the NCAA, but Michigan can recognize whatever aspects of the Fab Five era it wants to. Whether Michigan should do so is a separate issue.
I can see why Jalen is pissed, but I don't agree with him. He shouldn't be pissed at MSC, he should be pissed at Webber. It is Chris Webber who shat on the memory of the Fab Five, not MSC.
You can't claim "higher ground" when one foot is in a cesspool;. MSC understands that. I wish Jalen could.
What happened to the team? Does one player define a generation movement? Yes, we can all agree that Webber messed up more than any other player on that team and has yet to own up to it. The Michigan family would love an explanation and/or apology for what he did, but let's be real. It's not going to happen. Also, there wouldn't be a Fab Five without Chris Webber. If the Fab Five were to happen at Kentucky in present day, it wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary. They were pioneers in the game, and we should be grateful for their contributions to the game.
This is a classic power struggle. Wealthy alumni/donor versus the school. I love the Fab Five and enjoyed being in school when they were there too, but I have the general opinion that donors need to keep their collective noses out of day-to-day business. Using a donation to threaten the school is just plain lame. I love you, Jalen, but grow up. I'm pretty sure you know the reason why those banners aren't going back up.
No Jalen, you should not take back your money because that would just prove that you care more about personal recognition than Michigan.
Besides, buying banners is what got you guys in trouble in the first place.
If he did pull the $250K, I don't think it would necessarily mean that he was in it for the personal recognition. To him, I think it's all about support: if Michigan isn't going to support him, then why should he support Michigan?
If Jalen's definition of "support" is "very publicly display a record of my accomplishments even though those accomplishments came at the price of a scandal that tarnished the reputation of Michigan" then yes, it IS all about personal recognition for him.
No Jalen - you shouldn't have broken NCAA rules......
Get it straight. Of the fab Five, only Webber is known to have taken money from Martin. The late '90s classes with Taylor, Traylor and Bullock are another story.
just small amounts of it, compared to the $200k Webber was accused of taking.
I honestly think there's a disconnect between all of MBB history and the Fab Five. To me they give off that vibe, and I haven't heard anything to make me believe that those guys see it any other way. In short, of course they want them hung back up.
Actually, I believe he admitted to it.
Jalen said Ed Martin gave him pocket money in HS, and stuff like a winter coat and new boots/shoes.
IIRC, Jalen was pretty adamant he didn't get $ during his time in Ann Arbor.
Watch the doc the next time its on , he took.
Get it straight. Of the fab Five, only Webber is known to have taken money from Martin.
There was Jalen, with his minor/admitted indiscretions, which seemed to have been largely irrelevant to the NCAA investigation and Michigan's sanctions. And I don't think too much about that aspect, honestly. I at least appreciate Jalen's candor.
Which brings us back to the subject of what to do with the now-deposed banners from the Fab Five era. And the perfect solution for what to do with them: Burn them. Collect the ashes in a garbage can. And dump the ashes, on the godforsaken grave of Ed Martin.
I can see burning them as being an answer to this whole controversy.
Essentially, Michigan needs closure.
Either hang the damn banners or burn them, but don't leave us in this limbo.
The University and its alumni won't ever fully be able to move past this unless there is some sort of definitive resolution, one way or the other. Embrace the Fab Five, and forgive them of their transgressions, or sever ties with them forever.*
*I don't mean the individuals, but the team.
Don't put up the banners...but invite them back. Put a mural on the wall of them. Maybe a video that loops of their highlights. All of those. But the games do not count, thus the banners are not valid.
"The games do not count, but don't act like they didn't exist."
Threating to take back a gift is really classy. Best way to get things done is to attach strings to gifts.
I am a huge JALEN fan...even have donated to his jrla charity on a couple of occasions.
He needs to start understanding that as exciting as that time was, and as beloved as most of those individual players are, that scandal hurt the University. We don't like that shit. those banners are a reminder of an embarrassing time, and that's highly unfortunate because they also are a reminder of some great times too.
If Jalen is pissed, tell it to the people who caused the embarrassment.
Yes and twitter is the best place to express it.
Follow ur heart and seek the banners is better than the banners that seek you.
Jalen - Chris Webber screwed you guys. Sorry, man, but that's just the way it is.
As long as MSC is school prez, those banners are never going back up. This might be resolved when she retires, or if she leaves for another job.
I can see an argument for putting the Fab Five stuff back up, but I want no part of the Mo Taylor, Tractor Trailer, LB, crew.
MSC does not have the final say on this topic. She can only speak for her tenure as pres.
They may well go back up one day. I think that Webber would have to attone in some way though.
a false dichotomy or anything...
Your post could be used as a textbook example.
Because I hate America and puppies.
anyone would pick Team A is because they either
A) Support kitten genocide, or
B) Voted for Stalin
WHICH IS IT EiD?!?!?!
You don't vote for Stalin, though. You swear on the eyes of your children that you will support him as he crushes his enemies.
The sad part is, it was a perfectly nice CPSU meeting before he brought up that whole thing.
I was thinking about staying for the three-legged race and bobbing for apples, maybe even trying to dunk the lifesize capitalist pig doll in the tank for charity, but he really weirded a lot of us out with that one. It was right back to my numbered car, apartment and family for me after hearing all that.
I LOVED them..LOVED them...
cwebb messed up. Period.
In my house, my signed photo of him us still wrapped in the packing paper on a dusty shelf..where out has been since it came off my wall when our became really obvious he wouldn't own his mistakes. Why? Because I just can't bring myself to burn it.
This post encapsulates Michigan's relationship with the Fab Five perfectly.
A) Were actually around for the Fab Five, cheered them on and defended them from their detractors, and we're crushed to find that their detractors were right when they brought on the greatest shame the Athletic Department has ever had
B) You only care about being cool and will excuse wrongdoing with rationalizations you even have a hard time believing even if they never actually won anything but boy, did they stick it to the man, and that's more important than honor and honesty any day.
Can I go with #3? I chose to remember the games, the players and style they represented and the swagger that went with it. I understand they broke rules and we were punished for them but that doesnt wipe out the memory I have of sitting the Super Dome in 1993 watching the best basketball game I have ever seen or hope to see (the semi-final against Kentucky).
I know on this board I represent a very small percentage of the feelings here but I want the banners up.
Since I was only pointing out that two narrow viewpoints presented as "fact" could be countered by two more narrow viewpoints. It's possible to have a variety of feelings on the Fab Five. Heck, mine change day-to-day, depending on my mood. It's a complex range of emotions.
It's done and over they should put the banners back up because what they did on the court was special and deserves recognition..I understand the whole money thing but didn't webber pay the 100k back too..not justifying what was done but the past is the past..they are the most famous team ever to play college basketball and should be allowed to put those banners back up...and embrace those guys not shun them.....speaking of money if I had even 5% of what was generated from them I'd be retired..they made the school and NCAA a shit ton of money....I also think that the fact that some of those guys still support Michigan even tho it seems to me like Michigan doesn't support them back also shows a bit of class to those guys.
IMO, it's not about the money. It's because MSC recognizes that Michigan can't be seen as endorsing a tainted legacy. And reinstalling the banners would amount to endorsing that legacy.
Is it fair to Jalen (or any of his teammates) that Webber's ill-advised Ed Martin dealings ratcheted up what should have been a relatively minor issue into one of the biggest basketball scandals of all time? Not at all. But it's not MSC's fault.
I loved watching that team, their attitude, and all they stood for and against in the public eye. But their legacy is still tainted, and we did not "win" those banners.
Their missteps aside, they did contribute to the university and college basketball as a whole. There's a balance to be struck here. Consequently, I think Jalen should be welcomed back, and we should not pretend like those teams did not exist.
Again, this is just my opinion.
Well she said it herself its not just up to her so relax a final decision hasnt been made.
I understand the banners.
But not recognizing the other four members of that group, who did nothing wrong, is also unfair. They were, as far as we can tell, model student athletes and have been good citizens after they left. Why should they be punished?
Forget the banners, and forget Webber. The other guys deserve to be rewarded for good behavior.
what do you have in mind?
Those four have long been welcomed back. As I recall they have often said they wouldn't participate in anything that didn't include Webber. He is still banned until 2013.
Wikipedia only mentions Webber, Taylor, Traylor and Bullock.
However in this AP article Jalen admits to getting some money as well.
Others have suggested that more were involved in taking money from Ed Martin but guilt by association isn't proof.
Just reinforces my long held suspicion the Fab Five as an entity care more about themselves than they do about Michigan. Grow up, Jalen.
I was a ball boy during the sophomore year of the Fab Five, so like Jalen (in a very, very, very small sense), a few of those banners hold a lot of personal meaning to me. Personally, I would like to see the university put the banners back up with something like an asterisk next to each year in question. However, what's done is done. I love Jalen, but I don't think MSC is necessarily in the wrong on this one, and if she or her successors never put them back up, I won't hold any ill will.
Also, for us to want them back up, it is akin to Reggie Bush asking for his Heisman back in 15 years from now. It's probably not going to happen and it probably shouldn't happen. Stricken from the record doesn't normally denote something that's temporary.
Aren't all those wins and final four appearance's vacated by the NCAA anyway? Seems weird to hang banners commemorating something that's not even recognized in the books... I would be in favor of recognition for someone like Jalen, who has done a lot for the University, but even more for the Detroit/MI community.
While what the Fab 5 did on the court was something very special, both on the court and in popular culture, the harm Webber casued to the program is something I'll never forget. I remember the day the banners came down, and to put them back up as if nothing happend would just be strange. In short, I don't see the need to have those banners hanging over the floor. Students, alums and fans should do not need and should not have those banners literally hanging over their heads.
If the University wants to honor the Fab 5, do it in a display case or as someone mentioned above, some type of mural or really anything, but the banners came down for a reason and they should stay down.
Thanks for answering the question. I was leaning that way to begin with, but this makes it easy.
Putting the banners up is like saying CWebb never did anything wrong. I love Jalen. He's generally a great ambassador for UofM and the city of Detroit. But he's wrong on this. I'm sure it's hard because he is directly involved in this situation, but I think if he tried to look at it objectively, he'd see the university doesn't really have a choice. Besides, the university does support you - MSC and Brandon did interviews for the Fab Five documentary, they invited you back and had a ceremony for you at halftime last season, Jimmy King did radio for basketballg games at one point. Not sensing the lack of support here.....
As much as I would love to see them back up, there is just no way the university can do it. It would make it pointless to take them down in the first place. Those seasons have been removed and their not coming back.
To be honest, Mary Sue Coleman is an idiot and I cannot wait for her to leave. When someone asks you about a contentious issue like this, you don't take a side, especially when it isn't your call to make! Smart people know when to deflect a question, but she is just a pawn of the Regents. A lot of people in the faculty don't like her because she is basically just a corporate lap dog who raises money.
Hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of college presidents are glorified fund raisers.
Agreed. And last I checked, the university is still well respected throughout the world and contines to expand. She's doing a decent enough job I'd say. And I wouldn't be surprised if many of the faculty don't like her. Alot of people don't like their boss.
She's not a dean of a college or school. She's the chief executive of a university. Setting a course for the school (and finding ways to fund that course) is job 1.
Getting stuff built all around campus - which so many faculty appreciate when they're not complaining about construction inconveniences - requires capital. It's her job to be the face of the university on roadshows to raise funds to pay for all of that.
Need based scholarships and the recent (wildly successful) capital campaign - same story. That money doesn't fall from the sky.
I don't agree with MSC on many issues, but she's done a damn good job of raising cash, improving the physical plant of the university, and expanding opportunities through need- and merit-based scholarship fundraising.
In my book, that makes her a damn good president.
I have to question how much you know about her role with the Regents if you say this. She's hardly been their pawn durung the GSRA thing. Much to their chagrin.
Seems like a pointless question because the Fab Five didn't really win anything anyways. Yeah, I know making the Final Four is an impressive accomplishment. But in the context of the goals for a team as talented as the Fab Five (i.e., win the Big Ten, win the National Championship) whatever banners we are talking about really don't seem that important.
Frankly, if I were in Jalen's shoes I wouldn't be to concerned with whatever banners are in dispute today, I'd be more annoyed with finishing in second place and the regret of coming up short of my goals twenty years ago.
went far beyond the expectations for that team. That's a season we would all love to be able to celebrate. If not for the scandal, we most certainly would.
I'm not saying it wasn't a great season. I remember it with great fondness and, I guess, in a sense, I still celebrating it too because the off-the-court issues have never dampened my enjoyment of those years.
But we are still basically talking about 2nd place banners. IF they had won some Big Ten or NCAA championships (Rainbow Classic is nice but doesn't really count) then I would have much more sympathy for Jalen Rose. Shit, I would probably be arguing with him in that case.
You r so much better than Rose.. Is this why you are on a blog talking about the man.. Donate $250,000 yourself big shot and making it to the Championship is a great accomplishment.. I would like to know your thoughts on Bo, the man who lost many rose bowls and never won a national title.Which I would imagine was his goals.. They are Michigan Legends and you talk shit on Blogs..
I propose a compromise. In lieu of the banners missing from the rafters, maybe the University should paint a maize halo on the ceiling of Crisler instead. This would be a clear indication of our new, saintly direction. And I suspect that the old halo from the football stadium is probably packed in the basement next to the banners anyways. Close enough right?
What do you guys think?
What is your opinion of Bo... You never anwsered the Question...How many football championship did he win???
13 Big Ten, 2 Mid-American, and 5 Bowl Games.
Because the Fab Five didn't win the conference either. The real difference is that Bo didn't cheat and tailspin the program into probation.
If Webber hadn't broken the rules, the banners would still be hanging. He did, so they aren't. It's really that simple.
...I was lucky enough to go to both Final Fours. My parents didn't have a lot of cash, so it was a monumental gift for me as a teenager and a huge undertaking for them.
I loved that Fab Five, but man...the whole scandal was such a black mark on the program. Everything was all fun and games when they were having a good time. I even remember Frank Beckmann giving some on the air editorial about how they were too cocky and acting out, and that wasn't Michigan basketball, and myself thinking, "Too bad, man. Times are changing, you're old, and these guys are bad ass."
But anyone who takes money is messing with Michigan. And this dude, one who was there to see Webber's TO and wanted to just effing die when it happened...
...this dude cannot abide.
It's great that Jalen still donates. He was cleared of any wrongdoing...but one of his teammates was taking money.
When the integrity of the program is torched, not just compromised, victories and banners vacated. It pains me to say, but that's just how it is.
That's why we're Michigan.
It would be interesting to see if there are banners in the rafters at other schools that have had to vacate conference championships, S16, FF and NC's? Are Calipari's teams' banners from UMass and Memphis hanging in their rafters? What about banners from '71 Villinova and Larry Brown's '80 UCLA team?
It's established convention for schools not to recognize teams with vacated records. Michigan is not doing anything out of the ordinary.
The NCAA was very specific with OSU that there is to be no recognition that OSU won any games in 2010, went to the Sugar Bowl, won the Sugar Bowl, and so on. They even mandated that Tressel not ever claim credit for the vacated wins if he tries to coach again, and they had to send the Big Ten and Sugar Bowl trophy to the NCAA.
As with Michigan's case, there's no suggestion that this is only a 10 year punishment, so I'm not sure why MSC is even talking about the banners going back up.
My comment was rhetorical, as I did some research before I posted. Its amusing to see the struggle here when we would be the only university with vacated final four appearances putting our banners back up. I guess that outs me as far as my position on it too. The games don't count anywhere but in our memories.
I think MSC is just out in front of the issue shutting it down before it gains any more momentum.
Not sure how much "research" you did, because Memphis still hangs up their 1985 Final Four banner that was vacated.
Is not Michigan. Maybe your values are more aligned with Memphis.
Stop the personal attacks, Mom. It's getting old. We get it: you're pissed at Chris Webber, and he broke your heart. But calling people out repeatedly isn't good form, which you've done with many of your, what, 20 or so comments in this thread?. (The irony of me calling you out, individually, for calling others out, individually, is not lost on me, by the way).
This was unnecessary.
The individual said that if we hung the final four banners, we would be the only program to have vacated final four banners hanging in our rafters. This was completely untrue, and I pointed out this factual inaccuracy.
Me pointing out this factual inaccuracy doesn't automatically mean that I therefore subscribe to the philosophy of Memphis. To suggest as such, one would either have to, be a simpleton, miss the point totally, or be simply looking to pick a fight.
I'll admit. But I looked at UCLA and a few others. If UCLA doesn't hang theirs . . .
at Memphis for the 2008 Final Four banner per the most recent NCAA ruling,
The university issued a statement Monday, saying it was "extremely disappointed" and "strongly disagrees" with the decision. Memphis had kept a banner commemorating that season hanging in the rafters at FedExForum during its appeal, but that banner now will be taken down.
they might as well grab the '85 one while they are at it...
Unfortunately, yes you do have to remove banners when you actually get caught cheating. However, UCLA still has Wooden's banners up, even though we now know how dirty he was. Likewise, the rest of the SWC conference has maintained their records for the years they weren't caught. Kentucky will get to put their banners up for a while, as will Auburn, unless someone can prove they did something wrong. Sadly for sports records, its not what you know but what you can prove.
I like Jalen, but when he keeps complaining about "recognition," he sounds like a classic ex-jock who can't move past his playing days. It was 19-20 years ago. There are more important things for him to focus on now.
Donate $250,000 then you can talk..Even if 20yrs passes bye... The Fab Five was an amazing thing and will always be charished by True Michigan Fans... Another thing If jalen needs to move on why do you tell us about your unwanted shit opinion
Jalen has done a lot more for the University than Mary Sue, and he did it for a lot less money!
How has he done more? He helped boost merchandise sales while he was playing, but that was only temporary. He brought recognition to the basketball program, but that has worn off as well. He is a good ambassador and donates to the university. She is an employe and her daily decisions affect both the current and future student body. The school continues to expand and is still one of the greatest universities in the world when it comes to academics.
Athletics raises the profile of the a school. Not saying michigan wasnt a well know school at the time of the Fab Five but I bet the number of applicants went up during their time there
I'm sure it did. But only temporarily. Nobody is applying because of the Fab Five anymore. Michigan has never been hurting for applicants though. A small % of students apply to universities based on athletics (that aren't athletes themselves). But again, MSC has done much more for the university than an athlete does if raising the number of applicants is the best you got.
She might have but unless you are a student /alumni of a school you dont know who the president of the school is, but you know the athletic director, you know the players and teams. Im talking for someone like me and many of the recruits that michigan go after. They only come to learn about how highly regarded michigan is academically because they are drawn in by football or basketball or whatever sport they play.
I'd expect more people know who Rose is compared to MSC. He's on TV all the time. Doesn't mean that he does more for the university.
Your point is irrelevant anyways because you're limiting it to recruits. What % of the student body are athletes? What % are regular students? It's not even close. The statement was "Rose did more for the university than MSC ever has" not "Rose did more for the AD". MSC has done 100x more for the university than Jalen Rose ever will.
110,000 people arent coming to see msc fundraise. And there not all recruits. And im not saying she doesnt do alot but what she does is not known to the prospective students by inlarge. But what/who they see on tv is known. Where talking about appealling to young people who will attend a school. What percentage of hs/college students worry about the footprint of the university they attend around the world. U might have or maybe just realized but I contend % is low. Michigan is apart of a select.group of schools with high academic standards as well as high athletic standards so the it different then most
"By inlarge"? If that was intentionally ironic it's pretty funny. If not...
I would say a huge fucking amount of hs students care about Michigan and the type of academic institution it is because, you know, a majority of kids choose their college based on the ACADEMICS. Saying that no HS students care about the reputation of the school is about the most ignorant statement I've ever heard.
You continue to ignore the fact that MSC presides over every department in the university and has an impact in every area. She meets with countless people to discuss the present and future of the university.
I never said anybody came to the Big House to watch MSC fundraise. They go there to watch football games, and the football team is more notorious than MSC. I would expect it to since the program is about twice her age and has been at the university much longer than her and is on TV. But that doesn't mean the 2012 football team had more of an impact ON THE UNIVERSITY AS A WHOLE than MSC because it's simply not true.
You don't seem to understand anything I'm saying though so I'm not sure my post will mean anything to you.
Of course kids choose schools based on the academics but why does a kid who lets say got accepted to yale, michigan and m.i.t go to michigan? Some are going because of the area of study is better at michigan than the others. But i can assure you that most are going because of the combination of the academic curriculum coupled with the allure of being a student at a school with big time college athletics. And I do get what you saying but i guess your not seeing my point.
Do you have any stats to back up what you're saying? You're just saying what you think makes sense to you with no factual backup to your opinion. If UofM didn't have an athletic department and they lost a kid to MSU because they had a football team to follow, there'd be another applicant to take that kid's place. A very low % of students are choosing UofM because of the athletic department.
The original point was that Jalen does not have as big of an impact on the university than the President. You continue to ignore this and maintain that the very few people that choose Michigan based on the athletics, all of which cannot be attributed solely to Jalen anyways, are a bigger deal than all the decisions that MSC has made while Michigan.
I've agreed with a lot of your posts on this issue but on this one I think you're being a little harsh on your opponent. U-M does research this stuff, and yes, athletics plays a role in why U-M is such an attractive option. Academics are the top priority for people who apply here, as they should be. However, the fact that you can get academics along with kickass athletics is a big selling point. Our great athletics help set us apart compared to schools that offer excellent academics but lack that kind of experience (like Rice, CMU, Johns Hopkins, Chicago, WashU, etc).
I don't know how much impact the Fab Five had on recruiting then or now, but when you're talking about the overall impact of athletics, it is substantial, and this is not a bad thing. I think we get very used to thinking of great academics and great athletics as being in opposition, but at a small group of institutions they co-exist. U-M is fortunate to be in that group, and it's something to be proud of, and U-M is smart to market itself accordingly.
You must think air traffic controllers aren't as important as Kim Kardashian....everyone knows her, and no one even knows who those people are.
You've had some controversy on this board topic but + 1 to you for this one......
I'm not buying the "small percentage" thing. Do you mean nationwide, or at Michigan? Because for some healthy slice of our applicants, the "whole college experience" is a big selling point. It's what distinguishes UM --there are not too many campuses where you can get our reputation & academics alongside big-time college sports. Most campuses, it's one or the other. High-profile athletics are a big deal for some applicants and there is nothing pejorative in that.
I'll be honest: I ended up getting two degrees from Michigan, and the athletics played a big part of me wanting to apply there in the first place. I had similar choices (Northwestern) academically, but went to U of M out-of-state because of just what you describe-- the total college experience. I felt it was lacking at Northwestern in comparison. I also don't think that, especially for teenage males, it's all that uncommon to be drawn to a school that you think is "cool," and as a teenager in the mid-to-late 90's, I most certainly thought U of M was cool to begin with because of the school's athletic prowess, and this led me to always like U of M, so when it came time to pick a college, I was probably a little predisposed to U of M anyway. And, for me, that all started when I was 11 years old and saw the Fab Five for the first time on tv.
So are you implying that Ohio's athletics raises the profile of the school, and the more applicants the better the school?
Michigan is known for academics, thats how the world sees Michigan, the world doesn't care about Michigan football or basketball determining the profile of the school.
What Im saying is that having a big time athletics coupled with academics makes students who want to experience the fulness of college apply to the michigans and dukes and not the browns and dartmouths.
This, precisely. For a certain set of people-- those who want a certain kind of college experience, athletics is a part of it. It was for me, and I know there are others like me out there. I guess some people think that's insane, and perhaps it is, but I can tell you that I absolutely love the fact that U of M athletics was and is as big a deal as it was/is; it has greatly enhanced my life, and I imagine everyone else on here's as well (or you wouldn't be posting).
This is Michigan fergodsakes!! We don't need a high profile athletics program for students to pound out applications to want to come here.
Even though I was a student-athlete, Michigan was near the bottom of the schools I applied to because of the huge athletic department (big time football schools can't really be serious about academics, can they?). I was wrong, but to many academically minded students, this can be a negative, not necessarily a positive.
Continue on with the discussion.
Let Michigan drop its athletic department to division 3 and become like harvard and yale...yes it will still be a great school with name and degree recognition, but what the student at michigan have over the ivy's it that they get a top notch education and can enjoy high level sports
You are high
Stop. Casting. Aspersions. Please. Mom.
I like the idea of putting them up in the Student Athletic Center.. Some took money and they have been punished.. To all that talk shit about Webber, get a life.. WE all love EVERY last second he had a Michigan jersey on, so to give him crap is nonsence.. I agree with Rose also. If you think Michignans endowment is big enough that $250,000 means nothing,you need to get a life.. I hope that he does take the endowment back. Sometimes the arrogance of Michigan Alums, like the ones that wrote those classy letters to Fisher and the team, proves the point of many others...GO BLUE GO FAB FIVE
Get a life??
Cwebb is "me" guy....and you call people who want to hold the university to a higher level arrogant? CWebb is so he can't even admit that he made a mistake.
Who is the arrogant one? The institution with standards, or the guy who cheats and justifies it?
If he took money after he declared, what mistake did he make? There is no proof of when money changed hands and because cwebb has been quiet, he presumed quilty.
The mind's ability to rationalize is a wonderful thing.
If we approach this objectively, the notion that Webber would forego the overtures of Ed Martin for years and then suddenly accept money from him (a money-laundering criminal, mind you) when he turned professional and was free to make money any way he saw fit - is just a tad hard to believe.
Webber only took money after he declared? Where on earth did you get this idea? The proof may not have come out in public, but every investigation led to the opposite conclusion. The FBI's led to people who would know testifying under oath. Webber didn't get banned from UM for not breaking rules.
So you're saying the investigation meant nothing and we were punished based on speculation and hearsay? Brilliant deduction Sherlock.
"Quilty" has to be one of the most hilarious misspellings ever produced here. "He's just a big soft and cuddly basketball player, is all!" Seriously, "q" and "g" aren't even remotely close on the keyboard.
In the documentary, Mitch Albom of the detroit free press who is fround upon around these parts said it best: if Webber took money he must have buried it....what he said thinks happened is that webber took money knowing he was going to declare but before it was official. Most athletes probably do this all the time, getting loans from agents. And just looking back about how the Fab Five was on and off the court; I would think people around the area would have known they were raking in that kind of money they were accused of taking. I think the crew that gets lost in this is taylor, bullock, traylor and white group that also took money. And Jalen is just doing what anyone would do in his position, sticking by his "brother".
And who produced the documentary? It's not exactly a peice that looks at all sides of the issue. Albom, with an ego as big as all outdoors, doesn't want to think he was duped by a college kid.
Just for your edification, and I'm assuming you weren't at a age to really know, there were plenty of rumors about money. I remember when Jalen got his car broken into and claimed that $3,000 worth of car stereo equipment was stolen. That was a lot of money for a poor college student.
I was old enough to follow sports but heard nothing of an investigation or anything. And if there were rumors how come nothing came out until that accident involving mateen cleaves?
Getting caught red-handed breaking rules led to an investigation and rumors didn't? Hard to believe, isn't it?
It's too bad that all those other schools got in trouble with the NCAA because of the random violation investigations that were instituted along with random drug testing. Just got unlucky I guess.
Cleaves was in Mo Taylor's explorer, but it wasn't proof positive that Mateen was on the take, even though they were en route back from Ed Martin's party at the Ren Cen Westin during Mateen's official visit.
the $40000 SUV (titled to Mo's grandma, whose monthly Soc Sec income was less than the car payment) and the off-campus jaunt on an official visit were the 2 threads that unwound the whole thing.
even then, nothing could be proved until UM administrators convinced the feds to make full disclosure on the M basketball scandal a condition of his plea deal. no other school that signed kids out of Detroit asked the feds to do the same, so Martin only came clean on his cash to Michigan bball players.
if we hadn't asked for it, the NCAA investigation would have died. this both sucks (we did it to ourselves) and is admirable (we were the only school that wanted the truth).
MA, I have never fround on him, nor will I in the future. This I do swear.
I'm not quite sure why people look at Jalen's documentary as some kind of Zapruder film. It's a fun movie to watch, but it's pretty silly to think he doesn't have an agenda to advance.
Does anyone else always think of Michigan Sports Center when they see MSC? I think that was / is a Michigan blog.
And MSC is doing the right thing. The reputation of the university is more important than former athletes being happy. Sorry Jalen
Maybe Mary Sue should just call his bluff and send him a check by the close of business. Then he can tweet about that, too.
to take his side and run a with it :/
I wonder is the people who are saying Jalen needs to grow up and stop trying to bring recognition to himself are the same people who didnt want the Fab Five at Michigan in the first place. As much as they we love by many at Michigan, there were many who hated the fab five and what they stood for.
It won't change my opinion, but I like facts.
Coach fisher alluded to letters from alumni where they were called the n-word and how they represent what michigan stood for.
As far as I am aware, there were a handful of such letters. And by that, I mean literally less than a handful. One, two, maybe five. Were there more? I'd like proof. There has never been any.
And, from the days before the internet. Just how many stray emails, internet comments, Tweets are there NOW, from old and/or dysfunctional people now, complaining about things like football players' dreadlocks, or freshman basketball players jumping to the NBA? Using racist language or offensive terminology. Is Michigan currently a racist and discriminatory place?
Fisher, and Mitch Albom, and Webber and anybody else who wants to complain about the Ann Arbor scene when the Fab Five were resident in Ann Arbor are all -- to put it in language befitting this thread -- full of shit. I had season tickets to Michigan basketball to see the Fab Five; I was there, and they were adored. They were celebrated. They were cheered. By all.
That whole "racist letters" thing is probably the stupidest and most pointless story in the history of Michigan athletics. It all boils down to: Aha! There were six cranks in Brighton, or Tuscaloosa, or Escanaba, who decided to write unhinged letters. Shame on Michigan!
Is it really so unbelievable?
Ask John Navarre about how wonderful Michigan fans can be.
You, for one, should know (see; Rich Rod's time at Michigan).
I think your post should say "Ask any athlete how wonderful sports fans can be." The things that happened to them aren't unique to Michigan. They're unique to mankind.
Sports fanbases everywhere are all various shades of the same color gray.
Because it is pointless to have a debate about a handful of cranky letters. They signify nothing. Nothing more, that is, than what we currently see on MLive.com. Cranks, writing cranky-commentary things. That is not a story. Never has been, and never should be.
A real story would be if there had been piles of such letters, and other indicators of a seriously racist element of any considerable size and influence, in any sector of the University of Michigan. That would have been a real story, and it never existed. There's no proof; not even any alleged proof. There is a stray, almost anonymous reference, with lousy attribution, in a throwaway book (one of his innumerable throwaway books) by Mitch Albom. That reference being to one letter, or a couple of letters, or some such reference.
So yes, I call bullshit. Not on the existence of a handful of letters (who cares?); but on the existence of a meaningful story.
And I am not so sure how much of a problem Rich Rodriguez had with Michigan fans. He had a very, very serious problem with a pair of writers at the Detroit Free Press. You know the Free Press; it's the newspaper where Mitch ("The Fab Five") Albom works.
There was a considerable undercurrent of racism, and to deny it is to be willfully ignorant.
Whether it be letters, snide comments, or calls for "returning to Michigan basketball." Beckman was particularly egregious, and there were many like him. It's that soft racism, the "It's not racist, I'm just telling it like it is," stuff.
John Navarre has told stories about sitting and crying with his dad, while listening to hordes of angry phone messages left by Michigan fans.
Michigan fans are by no means special, we can be just as cruel, insane, and vicious as every other fanbase.
"There was a considerable undercurrent of racism ..."
Who? Who was racist? Be specific. I want names, identities. Who were they? What sort of people are you talking about? What positions of power or influence did they hold? How many of these racists were there? Where were they? What exactly did they do or say?
Be very specific. You can't just toss out vague, unclear and unsupported charges of "racism" and get away with it.
I am gonna go waaaay out on limb here, and suggest to you that John Navarre doesn't have much of a place in a discussion of racism. And I am also going to suggest to you that Frank Beckmann (if that is who you are referring to with your misspelled "Beckman,") was as much of a fan of the Fab Five as anybody. Frank was perhaps the first person anywhere to publicize them as a fabulous fivesome; he did it on a football broadcast before any one of the five had ever taken the court in a Michigan uniform.
You can take away the banners. You can act like the games never happened. And you can ignore the players who made the school and program flourish in terms of revenue in ticket sales, merch etc.
But you will NEVER take away the memories.
Easy solution would be to retire Jalen's number. I am sure that would make him happy, a way of honoring the era without honoring the fab five.
i'd be on board with that
Until he acted like a whiney child.
Can't teach children (or grown men) by rewarding poor attitudes and behavior.
I'd be down with that if he'd stayed four years, but he didn't. Those who earn the extremely rare honor of having their jersey retired should be those who stayed here until graduation.
NCAA rules<Federal and state laws. if any banner up in crisler or any U of M venue had players on that team arrested for any reason then they brought shame to the university and those banners should be taken down. to me, taking money isnt nearly as bad as some of the legal shit other players get into. all this shit about the darkest hour of U of M athletic is stupid.
for lying to a federal grand jury on this matter.
took the money so we should never put up the banners because that made him ineligible, where is there proof of when he took the money? I don't believe there has ever been any proof he took anything until his sophomore year. At the very least the banners from the freshmen season should go up.
This has a chance to reignite Michigan basketball for good and I'm all for them going back up.
Raising a pair of 20-year-old banners will "reignite Michigan basketball for good"? I think you're assigning a little too much importance to these things. Besides, I think the program is pretty well on its way as it is.
Forget the whole Fab Five aspect, I say we save our banner raising for championships, whether they be Big Ten Championships or NCAA. Final Fours are nice, but banners are for championships.
final four > conference title
They were, weren't they? For me that's a reason not to put them up: they banners were not earned. And (following this logic/if true) when you discuss the way that other untainted players lost out you say "Exactly. That's why the actions were harmful. They hurt the team, the U," etc. And we can't be party to some kind of sentimental turnaround that says "Now we're going to celebrate that."
This doesn't mean you don't forgive and forget, or welcome Jalen back, etc. But it sure would be a reason not to put the banners back up.
I am a huge C Webb fan, and fan of the Fab V--I adored those guys. But that doesn't mean you put the banners back up. Hell, put the Fab Five's pictures up in the rotunda, etc. But unless I'm missing something, not the banners.
Anti-Establishment: the historical setting justified a degree of disaffection which shaped opinions in which an entrenched disconnect remains. I know it is more justified to defiantly hang the banners. However, I do what I hate; and, in my worthless opinion, defer to the protection of the reputation of the University for the sake of order amidst chaos. Ironically, without my having a platform for addressing any of the real concerns in this case, it sickens me to say, "The better part of valor is discretion.": meaning I agree with MSC by default.
I would appreciate it if MSC would help guide the NCAA with the assistance of the professional sports world; and, for future reference; they together should no longer tolerate punishing the innocent players such as those who were in the program at Michigan when at the time the penalties were imposed without fruitfulness.
Dont' sweat it Jalen, the Fab Five were bigger than any banner, you will get more notoriety the longer MSC prevails with her petty agenda. Like Armando Gallaraga's NOT Perfect Game being more memorable because of the obvious incompetence of the first base umpire. Like Shoeless Joe Jackson and the HOF. Like the Cubbies season and the foul pop down the third base line. You, Jalen Rose, have achieved immoraltality
actually Braylon Edwards is disguise? Or is Braylon just Jalen in disguise? Both spout off a bunch of stupid, self-centered, garabage about their scholarships. I'm sorry but Jalen is just an idiot. He should take his scholarship money and shove it up his ass. Then he can stick to having pissing contests with Skip Bayless.
What's the point of the banner if the NCAA doesn't recognize the games? Should we hang up a fucking Stanley Cup banner in Yost too? Sure, the NHL doesn't recognize that Michigan won a Stanley Cup, but we should honor the greatness of those past teams anyway, right? Hell, the 2011-12 basketball team was pretty good, could we get an NBA Championship banner for them? It's embarassing to even think of a Fab Five banner hanging next to the one the Big 10 championship one won this past season.
no two ways about it. it would be celebrating cheating. understand Jalen will be upset, but that's life.
In my honest opinion if you're younger than 29 (and that's really pushing it) I just don't think you get it. They were the beatles. Nothing was the same after them in the sports world. What athletes wore and how they acted changed. I was a kid from Southern Illinois who had a Jalen Rose jersey. My friend had a Webber and another had King. I got the chance to see them play at Illinois. Love them or hate them, everybody was there to see them. The fab 5 and Desmond Howard would dictate where I would go to school at a very young age.
Webber took money after the national championship and the university was punished for it, but it's time to put the banners back up and honor the past.
Closer to 30, and I get it. I had a Webber jersey. That being said, there are consequences for their actions. Jalen should be grateful for what he has, nobody can do it alone, and let this one go. I would like to believe he created a scholarship to help people, not as leverage to further his own reputation.
must be a lot younger than I thought.
I'm with you, Glove, right down to being from Southern Illinois. I'm jealous as hell that you got to see the Fab Five in Champaign; I grew up about 2 hours south, down 57 to 70. I still have my Jalen jersey, but it doesn't fit anymore, unfortunately. Cheers to you, my friend.
I am older than 29, have had season tickets since a few years before the Fab 5, and went to almost every home game when they were here. I was a huge fan of them and completely enjoyed the hype that surrounded them. I fully understand the impact they had on the culture of that time.
I was also hugely disappointed when the scandal broke - disappointed in the players who took money and in the coaches who ignored what was going on. They broke the rules and we all paid the price. Michigan fans should expect more.
I find it hard to understand how so many of us can be so indignant over OSU's violations but ignore our own. The games were vacated because they broke the rules. The banners mean nothing.
I don't know why you assume that anyone opposed to putting the banners up "doesn't get" how big the Fab Five was. I was in middle school (prime sports fandom years) when they played. I loved them. I sobbed after the 1993 title game. But that doesn't change the fact that we were punished and had to vacate the games. That they were a popular team is not a credible counterargument. We broke the rules. It makes me sad that we did, but that's life.
I was a high schooler during the fab five time. There are plenty of good, ethical players our school has associated with, we don't need those banners. I still like Webber, Rose, and Howard. I just don't think we need those banners.
hey at least there is still the NIT banners, Thats something to be proud of/
Michigan easily gets placed in the top 20 all-time best basketball programs in the country. In fact, if Michigan doesn't have basketball tradition, neither does MSU because historically the two teams are essentially equivalent to one another after vacating the Fab Five and including Izzo's run as their coach.
Because there is no tradition in crisler without the fab 5.
Really? What about the 13 Big Ten championship teams? The four non-vacated Final Four teams? The 1989 national champions? Please explain to me how those teams do not constitute any tradition.
To me, the fab five will always be a novelty. They were the it thing in the early 90's, but in reality they never won jack sh*t, and to me winning trumps image any time. One of the posts talks about never having a conversation about the 89 team. To me, that is just sad. I live in Illinois, so the 89 team gets discussed way more than the fab five here, as Illinois fans feel robbed for that year, even though they got beat fair and square.
I am 34, so I remember both teams, and have far more respect for what the 89 team did in one of the toughest years in the big ten maybe ever. Even though the whole of the fab five was not guilty of what C-Webb did, the fab five era is the beginning of the dark ages for Michigan Basketball. Thankfully we are now out of those dark ages, but the last 10-15 years have not been great for UM hoops.
Instead of worrying about Jalen Rose getting his panties in a bunch over the fab five and banners being hung or not, maybe we should focus on the 89 team a little more. I would put that team up against the fab five any day of the week, and the 89 team would win.
The '89 team definitely seems to get lost in the shuffle, which really is inexplicable when you consider that they're our only national champion. It's bizarre.
It really is bizarre that people care more about a team that never won anything opposed to our only National Championship and legit one at that. That championship also had Glen Rice, who still holds the record for most points in a tournament, and that record will probably never be broken in this era of basketball. Who are the jerseys we have retired, Buntin, Russell, Hubbard, Tomjanovich, and Rice. I don't see anyone on the fab five that deserves or warrants their jersey retired.
it makes no sense for the University to hang the banners in Crisler. It would be a thumb in the eye of the NCAA as well.
But this topic has come up over and over again, what to do with the banners. And it has been pointed out that as long as Michigan has them, this issue will continue to come up.
I think Mary Sue Coleman should send a the damn things to Jalen. He can hang them in his own home to remind him how great he was.
Why is this such a big debate? Chris is the only one that got punished. They are part of the Michigan family. I support them for better AND for worse.
Mgrowold put it best, they changed college basketball WHILE wearing the Maize and Blue.