two tweets:
https://twitter.com/#!/JALENROSE
I saw that U of Michigan has no plans to put back up our hoops banners. Should I do like most of its former BBallers & never return? cont
or should I ask for the $250k I donated for my Endowed Scholarship back & move it to another school? Stay Tuned.
____________
I understand the tough position that MSC is in. hopefully jalen knows that she doesn't speak for everyone in the program or for the fans.
Understandable he's upset,
Agree. Not much more to be
Agree. Not much more to be said.
When the endowment is $7.8B,
When the endowment is $7.8B, I'm not too sure the loss $250k is much of a threat.
I understand them being a bit mad, but I also wish they could understand where the school is coming from.
The Fab Five
Is less of "the school," than the University President is.
MSC is representing the best interest of the school with this decision. The school is built on a reputation. That reputation was tarnished as a result of individuals who did not think of "the team" (or the school) when they made their selfish decisions.
There are consequences for behaviors, and while Jalen was not part of it, I hope he can accept it. The banners were brought down because major rules were broken. That has not changed.
Mom, MGrad and life long fan living in So Cal
I get your point but one
I get your point but one could make an argument that the Fab Five was bigger than the school president, and bigger than Michigan. It was a phenomena that transcended athletics and shed light on a lot of issues, culturally, politically, and socially.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
One could say mostly the same
One could say mostly the same things about the Unabomber. I don't think that's a very good set of criteria.
"We've beaten Michigan the last four years. So where's the threat?"
- Mark Dantonio
Blogging the Virginia Cavaliers at http://fromoldvirginia.blogspot.com/<
They could say that the Fab Five was bigger
Than The University of Michigan.
And they would be wrong.
Mom, MGrad and life long fan living in So Cal
No, they wouldn't.
No, they wouldn't.
The legions of rappers, celebrities, and kids all across the country wearing University of Michigan apparel who couldn't tell you a damn thing about U of M (especially in the 90s) would beg to differ.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
This is true . . . but those
This is true . . . but those rappers are all 40 years old now. Trey Burke was born in 1993. Tim Hardaway Jr. grew up around Juwan Howard and never realized he went to Michigan. The Fab Five are one of the great stories of college basketball lore, like Phi Slamma Jamma at Houston or the '85 Villanova team, but to the younger generation today they're just that - a story in the books. They're not bigger than the university now.
I can't help feeling that this whole debate comes down to Jalen, and to a lesser extent the other four, having a hard time coming to grips with the fact that their old celebrity status has faded. The fact that their basketball playing days have recently ended probably doesn't help things any. They want to make sure they're remembered, which I can understand, but that alone isn't reason to put up banners for games that have been vacated.
That wasn't the point though.
That wasn't the point though. The point was, at the time they were playing college basketball, you could easily make the argument that the Fab Five were bigger than Michigan athletics.
I realize there are a lot of people who are going to use old cliched stock line, "No one is bigger than the program!" but that's not always true.
They resonated with the whole of America in a way that certainly no Michigan team ever has, and maybe no college basketball team ever has. Culturally, they were a nuclear bomb, blasting hip hop into the mainstream of American society.
Of course the Fab Five were bigger than Michigan, they were bigger than sports.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
"could easily make the
"could easily make the argument that the Fab Five were bigger than Michigan athletics"
Sorry, I tend to think that no one is bigger than the team, the athletic department and certainly not the University. What they did put us on the map and earned us a decade + of basketball mediocrity.
Jalen needs to seriously grow up and realize Michigan basketball existed, very well, before he set foot on campus.
What they did for the African
What they did for the African American community in helping to make black culture mainstream goes beyond the University of Michigan.
Even if you'd like to downplay the racial issues involved, you can't deny that they changed the face of basketball forever.
I never said they put the University of Michigan on the map, or any such nonsense.
It's my opinion that they were bigger than Michigan. The good, and the bad. They changed college sports forever.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
I think you're going
I think you're going overboard with this argument here. See my post below.
If your statement is true why
If your statement is true why does anyone that is younger than the age of 40 think of the Fab Five when they think of Michigan basketball....Besides the '89 team, I cant think of one player other than Cazzie.. I know It hurts.. It been 20 yrs and we still talk about the Fab Five.. I have never had a single discussion about the '89 squad.. EVER
Go Blue
Pretty much.Go anywhere
Pretty much.
Go anywhere outside of big ten country, and try too talk about any specific Michigan sports team, football, basketball, whatever. Hardly anyone will know what you're talking about, or have any memories regarding any team, other than the Fab Five.
Not one single team resonates as much as the Fab Five.
20 years later, one little tweet leads to multiple 100+ comment threads, and heated discussion.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
You do realize that 1) this
You do realize that 1) this is a board that obsesses over everything Michigan-related and 2) that this is one of the only times in school history we've gotten in trouble with the NCAA? It's not like there are legions of other Michigan teams out there trying to get removed banners put back up.
They were a memorable team, sure, but you're laying it on a little thick.
If your statement is true why
If your statement is true why does anyone that is younger than the age of 40 think of the Fab Five when they think of Michigan basketball
If you mean "Older than 30 and younger than 40" I'd agree. Younger than 30, not necessarily. It was interesting to hear the Michigan players' comments on the documentary when it came out a year ago. By and large, they hardly knew anything about the Fab Five - and these were players at the very same school.
Post Of The Year, 2012.
We are closing down the nomination process for Post Of The Year. It's all over.
The Last Hoke, step up here and claim your prize. We'll call it the Hokey.
The legions of rappers, celebrities, and kids all across the country wearing University of Michigan apparel who couldn't tell you a damn thing about U of M (especially in the 90s) would beg to differ.
Because really, where would the University of Michigan be, without legions of rappers, celebrities, and kids all across the country wearing University of Michigan apparel, and who couldn't tell us a damn thing about the U of M?
To Jalen Rose: You can have your fucking $250,000 scholarship donation back, if you and Webber will simply reimburse the University for legal expenses only incurred in the NCAA investigation. Forget about the financial losses, the injuries to the University's reputation and the other pecuniary losses associated with the Fab Five's violations. We'll settle for legal fees alone. And come out ahead, compared to your 250k.
You don't get it, because you
You don't get it, because you can't see their impact beyond Michigan.
This line illustrates the depth of your ignorance, "Because really, where would the University of Michigan be, without legions of rappers, celebrities, and kids all across the country wearing University of Michigan apparel, and who couldn't tell us a damn thing about the U of M?"
Do you hear that sound? That very faint, yet audible "whooshing" sound? That's the sound of my point flying over your head.
It's not about the rappers, or celebrities, or past popularity, and how they relate to today.
It's not about the University of Michigan.
They were bigger than Michigan for the period of time that they were at the University.
Their cultural and social impact is undeniable, particularly in bringing modern black culture and a lot of modern black issues into mainstream America's living room.
They illuminated a lot of the problems that we're still dealing with in American sports, particularly basketball, as well as a lot of issues we're still dealing with socially, and politically, in inner cities (but I've been trying not to go down those roads and remain as vague as possible).
If you don't understand this, then you need to start reading something other than the sports section.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
If they're that important to
If they're that important to society and culture (debatable), then we can read about it in AfroAmerican Studies classes. It also doesn't mean they didn't break the rules. It doesn't mean we should ignore the consequences of their actions. It doesn't mean we should celebrate our failure as an institution.
Learn from it, yes. Celebrate it, no.
CoE Class of 2007
If you can find a post of
If you can find a post of mine where I've stated that U of M ought to celebrate the Fab Five, then I'll give you an mgopoint.
The only thing I've really been talking about in this discussion is their impact on American culture at the time they were playing basketball. Everyone has been trying to box me in, and make it all about Michigan, attempting to force me into their insular paradigm while missing my original point.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
Exactly.
Because I went to Michigan for three degrees because rappers like it and CHRIS WEBBER WORE BLACK SOCKS GODDAMMIT!!
I think you're going a little
I think you're going a little overboard here. Yes, the Fab Five were very trendy. But so was Georgetown in the mid-'80s and UNLV just before them. In many ways, the UNLV teams of Larry Johnson, Stacey Augmon and the rest really paved the way culturally for the Fab Five. They were arguably even more "counterculture," given that they played for a school that openly disregarded the rules.
There were two things about the Fab Five that really stood out: that they all started together as freshmen (in the Final Four, no less) and that they wore long, baggy shorts. But to say they were the first "hip hop team" in the country . . . I don't know about that. I think Rose's documentary plays up that angle a little too much. It's not like every team in the country was like the cast of Hoosiers before the Fab Five arrived. Hell, Michigan basketball had a rep in some quarters for being "ghetto" even before they arrived - remember the teams of the mid-'80s?
I've essentially answered
I've essentially answered this in other posts, but to point one specific comment in the above post.
They were one a of a few teams in the late 80s, early 90s who signified the arrival of modern black culture into mainstream American culture.
They helped to not only make it "OK" to be black in America, but "cool."
They also helped to highlight a lot of issues we are still dealing with today, in terms of sports, culture, race, poverty, etc.
There were good elements, there were bad elements, but they were a part of (and maybe at the forefront) of the zeitgeist that was sweeping the country at that time.
They were bigger than Michigan and it was bigger than them.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
Please stop supporting the
Please stop supporting the Fab 5 on this board. The group think has spoken and they are bad and must be shunned.
Never mind the fact that 20 years later virtually EVERY basketball fan remembers their names (paraphrasing Jalen here) and couldn't tell you two players off either the Duke or NC teams that beat them. Never mind the cultural shift they virtually singlehandidly engineered in college basketball ranging from their style of play to the clothes they wore. And please never mind the fact that outside of our collective circle few people give a damn or remember the violations - they remember 5 of the most exciting, dynamic and personable players to ever wear a uniform. OUR uniform.
They were bad and their collective accomplishments must be wiped from our memory lest we dare think about those days favorably.
Sorry but I agree with Jalen. Put the banners back up where they belong.
All due respect but who gives
All due respect but who gives a shit if you can remember the names of the Duke and N. Carolina players that beat the Fab 5? Which teams are more respected - Michigan, N. Carolina or Duke. Which of the 3 has the best legacy?
It's not Michigan and that is the distinction that matters. Jalen is trying to make this about him when it is about the University - always!
Really?
Really?
Yes, really. Do you have a
Yes, really. Do you have a counterpoint you want to argue?
I'm just curious as to how
I'm just curious as to how you are trying to compare Michigan's basketball tradition against North Carolina and Duke. We are obvioiusly not on the same playing field as them and everyone knows it. Also, how is Jalen trying to make this whole issue about him? He's trying to get official recognition for the hard work that team put in. As I stated in a previous post, it's not all about Chris Webber. The fab Five would not have existed without Chris Webber. Yes, he scewed up, but let's not punish the whole team for the mistakes he won't admit. Jalen messed up as well, but he didn't lie about it. Let's give respect where it's due.
Do you also feel that
Do you also feel that "respect is due" to OSU's 2010 football team, USC's 2004 football team, and John Calipari's UMass and Memphis teams?
This is how it goes. If you have one ineligible player, the whole team pays the price. Strangely enough, no one here seems to have any kind of a problem seeing other schools get punished for the same issues.
I'm not making that
I'm not making that comparison but Jalen repeatedly makes the comment "who remembers the names of the players who beat us? But you remember our name." That is Jalen elevating himself and the rest of the Fab 5 above the team (both theirs and ours) when he invokes individual recognition.
Also, Jalen admitted taking money. Not C Webb amounts but pretty large none the less.
I bet if he just showed contrition and shut about it for a little bit he would get what he wants. He needs to be patient.
What does contrition even
What does contrition even matter at this point? Webber was declared ineligible. It really doesn't matter if he apologizes or not. You don't get vacated games restored because you say you're sorry.
I loved the guys, but honestly, there's no credible argument for putting the banners up. You don't recognize games that were taken away from you.
C'mon...
Granted, the only big name player from the 92-93 Carolina team was Eric Montross, but the 91-92 Duke team that beat Michigan was just as famous and significant...not for the same reasons mind you, but they were a phenomenon.
Grant Hill, Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley, Cherokee Parks, Thomas Hill, Antonio Lang...
"...what do you say, is it the new Bluesmobile or what?"
"Fix the cigarette lighter."
I understand what you're
I understand what you're saying but the Fab 5 really did usher in a whole new world of college basketball and young, black culture as a whole. Whether that is a good or bad thing can be debated
I got the shotgun. You got the briefcase. It's all in the game though, right?
You do realize I support
You do realize I support Jalen on this issue right? I was being sarcastic in my next to last paragraph.
Yes they would
Be wrong.
Mom, MGrad and life long fan living in So Cal
I don't think any group of
I don't think any group of athletes could ever be deemed greater than the school they play(ed) for. Michigan is a progressive institution that values culture and diversity and the Fab Five fit that mold.
With that said, I think the cultural impact the Fab Five had on society deserves recognition and remembrance. Maybe the banners could at least be taken out of their boxes sitting in the Bentley Library and put on display in some fasion, possibly in the PDC, but not Crisler.
If Ann Arbor is a whore, why didn't you get in?
The 1965-66 Texas Western
The 1965-66 Texas Western basketball team would like a word with you.
Let's dispell this ridiculous notion that players or teams can't be bigger than the institutions they play for, or the sports they play.
I get that it's a cute coaching maxim, to tell kids to keep them in line, and it gives the fans a sports boner, but it is incredibly false.
Jackie Robinson was bigger than baseball.
Muhammad Ali was bigger than boxing.
The 1971 Thundering Heard team was bigger than Marshall.
Lou Alicindor was bigger than UCLA.
Lou Boudreau pulling Bob Lemon in 1948, and putting in a 42 year old Satchel Paige for his first ever appearance in the majors.
There are countless examples of teams, and players transcending, and becomming bigger than sports, or the teams/schools they played for.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
You cannot seriously compare
You cannot seriously compare the Fab 5 to Jackie Robinson, who broke the color lines in baseball and endured pure hell to play the game, and Ali, who sacrificed his career by protesting racial injustice and an unpopular war.
Being the first to wear baggy shorts, black socks and bring an attitude on the court does not elevate you to transcendental status.
Their impact in helping to
Their impact in helping to bring modern black culture manstream, certainly was transcendental.
The way they highlighted a lot of the problems in modern collegiate sports, both institutionally, as well as racially, was also transcedental. Problems that we are still dealing with today.
The way they also highlighted a lot of issues within the African American community, and in inner cities in general, and white perceptions of black urban youth, also resonated then, and still does today.
Those kids happened to come along at the perfect time, and were caught up in the zeitgeist of the time. They were bigger than sports, and a lot of issues and discussion surrounding them was bigger than them.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
Only you and Jalen Rose
think that the Fab 5 was that important to bring modern black culture into the mainstream. They were certainly a part of it, but to compare them to Jackie Robinson or even the Texas miners is asinine. By 1991 you already had substantial elements of hip hop culture on mainstream television. Bands like Public Enemy were already successful in the mainstream, hell John Connor is wearing a Public Enemy shirt in Terminator 2 (and if that's not conclusive evidence, I don't know what is!). NWA had already disbanded by 1991. The Raiders were in LA at the time (1984-94?) and had become synonomous with hip hop culture. The Fab 5 were not transcendental. Despite what ESPN's 30 for 30 or whatever told you.
And the very fact that the
And the very fact that the Fab Five wasn't included in the original 30 for 30 series would seem to be another argument against them. ESPN did not consider their story important enough to be among the 30 most significant of 1980-2010. It wasn't until Rose himself came forward to serve as producer that the Fab Five film was greenlighted. Were any of the original 30 for 30 films produced by their subject?
No offense, but this comment
No offense, but this comment is incredibly dumb.
You do realize that it can take well over a year to write, film, edit, and complete a documentary, right?
Jalen's "Fab Five" documentary came out during the whole "30 for 30" series, so ESPN already knew Jalen was making it (hell they paid for it to be made and greenlighted it). So, logically, because Jalen was already making this documentary, there was no need to make a "30 for 30" on the Fab five.
Also, the 30 for 30 series was specifically about top filmmakers, making sports documentaries. Jalen wanted to make this film himself. He is not a top filmmaker, ergo, it was not a "30 for 30" doc.
Jalen wanted it to be his own thing. A , "the Fab Five, by the Fab Five, for the Fab Five" sort of deal.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
Yes but
Michigan has had success in athletics before they came and since. Michigan does not need to latch on to the fame, or infamy, that attaches to UM athletes that sources from outside the athletic activity itself. President Ford doesn't have a number retired in football because he was president. Several people believe that Michigan basketball should judge the merits of people who came through the program solely with respect to them as Michigan basketball players. As Judge Broomfield said at the Gandhi trial in 1921, "the law is no respector of persons, and is interested only in their character with respect to the law."
The place for acknowledgements concerning highlighting issues in modern collegiate sports, within the African American community and inner cities in general, and being caught up in the zeitgeist of the time is in TV specials, books, possibly college courses, and in all other media that discuss cultural history, anthropology and sociology, but possibly not the ceiling at Crisler, where many people still also have a memory of the long, painful hangover that was a part of that surreal trip through the eye of the cultural hurricane. The Fab Five, ultimately, did not necessarily help solidify or strengthen the hold of Michigan basketball on the planet, and people will differ on whether they want to remind themselves of what the Fab Five era did to the program.
Your point is moot
as mine was that It's not about U of M.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
What Zeitgeist are you taking
What Zeitgeist are you taking about? The one from the early to mid 90's when the Cosby show, the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, Kris Kross and the cast of It's a Different World & Family Matters dominated our youth culture?
You're right - totally comparable to Ali and Jackie Robinson.
Again, you nailed me, and didn't
Again, you nailed me, and didn't completely whiff on the point at all.
I was directly comparing Chris Webber's plight to that of Jackie Robinson's. I tried to do it, but you caught me.
I was in no way responding to a larger point about how athletes and athletic teams can transcend sports, but you just jumped right in and called me to task for insinuating that the Fab Five brokered the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Here I thought I was going to get away with it, until you came riding in on your valiant white steed, shooting rainbows of truth, vanquishing my not at all totally misconstrued point that you made up yourself.
If I were to say something like, "The 1971 Marshall team playing football transcended football," you would be right there to drag my ass on the capet and make a spectacle of me.
"Are you saying that the Fab Five intentionally crashed the plane that a bulk of the Thundering Herd's team was on in 1970 so that they could write, direct, and produce the movie 'We Are Marshall' some 30 years later?"
Yes, internet smart guy, that is exactly what I'm saying.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
I had been avoiding posting a
I had been avoiding posting a snarky response to this, and tried to respond in a level headed manner, but alas, I have caved.....
Of course I was comparing the Fab Five to the accomplishments of Jackie Robinson and Muhammad Ali!
I was in no way simply responding to the fellow above's comment that no one player or team can be bigger than the program they play for. Nope, not at all.
I was directly equating Jalen Rose and Jackie Robinson, and you caught me. I tried to get away with it, but you, you, internet sluth. You alone had the capability to nail me, and boy did you nail me.
If I were to make a comment like, "What the 1980 USA men's hockey team did in beating the USSR transcended hockey," or, "What Jesse Owens accomplished at the 1936 olympic games transcended track and field," you would be right there to call me to task.
"Are you saying that the Fab Five single handedly beat Hitler and brought down the Soviet Union?"
Yes, internet smart guy, that is exactly what I'm saying......
I feel so much better now.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
This situation is not as
This situation is not as clear as you seem to make it out to be though.
Is it right to punish all for the bad acts of a few? Dunno. Is it true that those banners represent broken rules rather than a piece of Michigan's history? Dunno.
Regardless of how those banners were achieved, one could argue that they represent a part of the history of our program, albeit a dark part of that history. Here is a (poor) example: years after Germany finally came to their senses regarding the atrocities of the crimes their leaders and military had committed during the second World War, the country OUTLAWED the denial of those atrocities and MANDATED education to all German citizens of those atrocities. In other words, rather than hiding their mistakes and hoping that people forgot about them, they forced their mistakes to be known and accepted the fact that they had been made.
I am, of course, not actually trying to compare the Fab 5 to WWII Germany. But, hopefully you can understand my point.
I've been wondering recently if there could be some way to bring the banners back in a symbolic way. Maybe reverse their color schemes, put them on their own rafter separate from the others, hang them upside down, etc. This would allow them to be displayed, but with the message that they were ill-gotten.
Just thinkin' out loud.
Always reaching for the banner.
I think that if they ever do
I think that if they ever do put the banners back up, they ought to put them in a dark corner of Crisler, away from the other banners. This would be symbolic on many levels.
They would serve as a testament to the darkest part of Michigan's athletic history, but more than that, a quiet defiance. It happened, and we will not run away from it.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
Understandable he's upset, and I think this is always going to be a tricky situation for whoever is in charge at UM
If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?
StraightDave owes me a steak dinner