Move the fuck on, Jalen.
well that's just, like, your opinion, man
Move the fuck on, Jalen.
You forgot to mention your conference and national titles, Jalen.
to read the article itself. Looks much less like a swipe at Beilein when you do. He's asked about how MSU has managed consistent success in hoop.
They left unceremoniously for reasons of their own doing, Jalen.
And. here. We. Go.
I was hoping someone would post it. I was on my iphone.
We are so allfired eager to take the Five off the shitlist and put up banners to them, etc?
Because more and more people are too young to remember how much of a black mark on the school's reputation that fiasco caused. And to be honest, fans are irrational - look at PSU with Paterno for no better example. So yeah, despite the fact that Fisher allowed all of that to occur under his watch and, at best, remained purposely ignorant of it, we get Jalen mouthing off about the University not caring about its students because they won't put his stupid banner back up.
Exactly. We are treating them like how a family would treat a funny, entertaining uncle who went to jail for fraud. I'd say we are treating just like how any family would treat them.
You seem like a charming individual. Apparently, also someone who visits the Moderator thread because, I don't know, you love to revel in other people's annoyances. And by the way, if you are the person going around negging people for no good reason, gotta wonder why you don't have literally anything better to do than wait for people to post on a blog.
UM did not "shit" on its basketball program. I was there right after the Martin scandal broke and Ellerbe was out the door. That team had its problems, and they hired Amaker to step in and at least give the team some credibility. But what can a school do for a program that was dragged through the mud so heavily, especially when virtually all of the accusations turned out to be true? You want the PSU level of denial? Good luck trying to find that.
The school and basketball team never gave up on each other; Jalen Rose, Chris Webber, and a couple of other former players are trying to convince people that it was some big misunderstanding and that they were the victims. The NCAA is broken in many ways, but there are LOTS of people who come to college sports in similar situaitons like Rose (and, frankly, Webber had a pretty nice life before he came to UM), and they find ways to not run afoul of these rules so egregiously.
I am not the least bit eager to take Fisher or Webber off of the shitlist. They dug a 10-year hole for Michigan basketball. Also, someone should remind Jalen that two of those Final Fours were vacated.
Webber acted poor when his parents had money and used his act as "justification" for taking Ed Martin's money. Fisher decided to be an ostrich while all of this was going on around him. I'm not so sure Jalen would want the idea that Perry Watson "delivered" him to the Wolverines revisited, either.
If Jalen wants to be "part of the famkly," maybe he should act like part of the family first.
That also talks to a degree about how each school handled their infractions as well as how the NCAA came down on them. The NCAA was significantly more powerful/tougher on schools back in the 90s compared to today. Had the situations occurred in the other's era, we'd probably see OSU get cratered while UM basketball bounces right back. Also, this is the same OSU that carried Tressel around on their shoulders at halftime of the UM game what, a year after he left.
The NCAA didn't force us to hire Ellerbe or let our facilities go to rot.
All the NCAA did was strip us of one scholarship a year for four years, ban us from the postseason for one year (2002-03) and slap the 10-year ban on the four players. Only the postseason ban really hurt, and that was just one season. We hurt ourselves far worse with the horrible coaching hire (and followed it up with a mediocre hire in Amaker) and total neglect of facility upgrades for a long time.
Seems pretty silly to blame the fans for MSUs success over the past 15-20 years. I was thinking it was more secondary to the implosion of our program brought on by egregious violations of NCAA rules committed by our players/coaches. That plus Izzo being an excellent coach taking advantage of the opening provided.
I'm so sick of Jalen Rose. Jalen, you got a raw deal and the banners are never going up. Fine. Quit acting like a petty, prideful juvenile.
Michigan has a great, great family atmosphere. John Beilein is a freaking saint in this regard. There's many reasons so many players with NBA relatives have chosen Michigan. For Jalen to throw the current coaches and players under the bus because of his personal vendetta is pathetic.
But this deserves a big pos-bang. The content and timing of Jalen's comment is so freaking bad.
Dave Brandon loves Beilein, and I think it is precisely for being clean, being smart, and building a family atmosphere. His coaching success is sort of a bonus, I gather. I'm coming around to Brandon's view. Jalen is really losing the thread in this case. I say all of that as a onetime huge fan of Jalen's and a season basketball ticket holder for his entire Michigan career.
Of course you're lukewarm on John Beilein. How any Michigan fan could but anything but thrilled with Beilein is beyond me.
less than 5 years after us pulling out the muppets for even making it to the dance!
I AM ANGAR!!!
Ask that asshole who calls WTKA daily...Phil. I'd fight that loser.
Sam is foolish for having him on and anyone who doesn't mute the radio is as well. I wish they'd realize he isn't entertaining, just annoying.
This is oddly inapposite and airy for a hall of fame guy who took us to the NC game last year and has spun miracles from unherladed players for decades. Did you have a cocktail in your hand when you wrote it? Hope Dave approves.
Why only lukewarm? Just curious.
Section 1 exists on this earth as some kind of weird anti-being whose purpose is to help sane people clarify their own thinking by constantly showing the absurdity of the opposing views.
Section 1 is Skip Bayless?
No big deal; nobody has ever heard me complaining about Beilein. I make something of a point, of not criticizing any of Michigan's coaches for anything that is technical. All the coaches know more about what they do than I ever will. I'm just a fan. I don't think I've ever made a complaint about Beilein on the MGoBoard.
The reason that I was merely lukewarm on Beilein was just because I never really understood his system(s) or his program. I still don't; at least not all the time. I watch some games, and I don't get what it is they are doing on offense, and too often the defense doesn't look good. But we've seen plenty of good results lately. Good recruiting, good team management, good everything.
And I thought it worthwhile to respond to the Jalen comments as something other than a Beilein/Michigan fanboy.
Let's also remember the last time that a supposed "Michigan Man" trotted out the "famliy values" trope. It was rank bullshit.
For the most part, Beilein runs three sets. Two shuffle series and the Princeton-based chin series. Then a ton of set plays that are offshoots off those.
You'll see this when two players run through to the baseline after the initial pass to the wing. The point is to isolate two options, one cutting to the basket off a guard's screen. The other, a screen the screener action for a 3. This can later evolve into a PnR opportunity.
This is one player cycling through. Then pass to the top of the key with emphasis on exploiting the pin down screen. This is the same play that got GR3 open for jumpers against Wisconsin. And that Pittsnogle would pop out for 3's with WV (expect to see Donnal doing that next year). If those are defended well, you'll see a backscreen for an alleyoop, then some dribble handoff action.
An immediate pass to the center. Two main actions initially. A backcut, and then a fade screen for the guy throwing that potential backcut. This is actually diagrammed differently than how it's run now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPTfuUYV0bs (full Iowa game)
You'll see Michigan run that wide pindown 4 times in the first 6 minutes. Designed to put Stauskas's defender in a bind. You see Iowa denying the catch, which opens up the backcut (which Michigan didn't really exploit). But anyway, Stauskas by the third time seeing it has figured out how to use White's positioning against him.
Hey man, good stuff! I upvoted both your posts so now you're at 100. Enjoy the added benefits.
Just in case anyone wants to see what the Beilein offense looks like now as opposed to the Classic WVU version, here's the '05 tourney (PITTSNOGLE!) vs. a Bobby Knight Texas Tech outfit:
The base actions are very similar, though the ball screen emphasis is obviously severely lacking. That said, it IS in there and does lead their PG to some opportunities in the lane. The current set up is a lot more stripped down. Partly, I'd assume, to account for less teaching time given the relative constrains of coaching guys like D-Mo and Burke.
Oh man, PITTSNOGLE! That WVU team had a great run that year. I think I read that Pittsnogle is back in WV and a gym teacher.
It's personal for you? So you know him personally and don't like him as a human?
And you're not criticizing him for anything technical but you don't like his offense because you don't understand the the technicalities of it?
This is a hilarious post.
I didn't criticize anything about Beilein. I said he knows more than I ever will. I stated why I thought Brandon adores Beilein. I said I was warming up to Beilein. He's doing a good job. I really appreciate the couple of posts before your stupid contribution -- both of them very smart indeed -- to help people like me understand Beilein's offense.
I never once said that I knew or disliked Beilein personally. My point was that my "lukewarm" feeling about Beilein's tenure was my own, personally. I'd never try to convince anyone else of the point.
In fact I have met Beilein, casually, and have had a couple of superficial conversations with him, both in the parking lot outside of Crisler on football game days. A lot of people have done that, because it isn't at all hard to find Beilein being very generous with his time and attention on those occasions. You could not imagine a nicer and more down to earth big time basketball coach in those circumstances.
Now; having said all of those nice things about Beilein (and let's not forget to add praise for Beilein's assembling and retaining a great staff) and about some other MGoBoarders, I can say; you are a real dumb ass. I'm very sorry that I only have one downvote for you.
Finding fault with Coach Beilein is equivalent to finding fault with Kate Upton. Man, you're really treading into Drew Sharp territory, my friend.
What's the absolute worst thing I've ever written about Coach Beilein? Go right ahead; hit me with your best shot. Preferably one of my own quotes. Step right up.
You don't think Kate Upton is hot. Stop posting the same set of pictures every week and picking the same goddamn fight.
And yet she's still far better looking than anything you or I are ever going to end up with.
This is a fair argument of your opinion, but I guess I don't get how the man doesn't impress you because you don't understand what he is doing. But whatever, at least you have a reason. Half the people around here hate or love a guy because they look at the upvotes.
Haven't read much of Section 1's posts. He/She seems normal.
That being said- here's my fave part of this post: "All the coaches know more about what they do than I ever will...I don't get what it is they are doing on offense..."
Mystery solved. You don't get it because the coaches know more than you. So sit back and enjoy! Michigan is finally good at Bball. Let's just go with it!
You don't criticize Beilein for anything technical because you don't know as much as a fan, but you don't like him because you don't understand what he's doing. Okay.
I never implied that there was anything unlikable about Beilein. I said I was a "lukewarm admirer." See the difference? Such a fine line...
Why all the negbombs? Yeah, kinda a weird to be luke warm on Beilien, but all the negs?
Then I looked at the poster - Section 1. No wonder.
Must be tough to walk around all day with the taste of vinegar in your mouth and onions in your eyes. You log on and your only relief is to bash everyone who has ever been successful. What ever makes you feel good dude.
Why are you so lukewarm about him? Honest question.
That might have helped.
Sparty could use a guy like Ed Martin.
Dear Jalen; we'll be a nice warm loving family once again when you condemn Ed Martin once and for all, explicitly, comprehensively, and in the strongest possible language.
We have standards.
Denial isn't just a name for a river in Egypt. Great timing. I don't know if this him being envious of Coach Beilein or he is just being a jerk.
That is an interesting fact that very few people remember. Ed Martin was actually pushing Webber to MSU but it was Webber who said no, he wanted to go to Michigan.
stone cold fiction.
In fact, I've never heard that. Not saying it isn't true, but where did you learn this common knowledge? Again, I really am curious, not saying it isn't true.
Not my favorite source. Not my favorite book. But anyway...
Says a lot.
It's a very good blog, with some great front-page content, a terrific owner-operator, and many excellent qualities.
And a really big message board, with a huge and non-discerning membership, which like most large crowds, contains a few really smart people, and a whole lot of mass hysteria and occasional psychosis.
Just look at this thread. I used one word in relation to Beilein -- "lukewarm" -- and see what it has led to here. Not one other word of criticism aimed by me at Beilein, and lots of other praise. And still the sort of freakout that we see in many (again, not all) of the comments and the up/down votes.
I would say he's exaggerating a little, but he's not 100% wrong.
Yes he is.
One man's opinion!
This is just annoying
Jack Daniels, always the voice of reason in my world. +1
The coaches... At what point do we say John Beilein is the best coach in Michigan history? Would it be after a NC win?
As for Jalen's comments, I just hope they don't hurt recruiting moving forward. I'm pretty sure we honored him a couple years ago, right? I don't like how he pushed his way into the locker rooms to be with the players after the NC game... Didn't like that at all. Little hypocrisy by Jalen, and he should be humble and let M honor him on their own terms. If I'm the Athletic Dept now I'm LESS enthusiastic about honoring him because it makes it just look like Michigan is doing whatever Jalen Rose says...
I'll sit down with Jalen anytime and argue that Dave Strack was Michigan's best basketball coach. The Cazzie Russell back-to-back NCAA teams. Building the core of the program that led to the Johnny Orr (Strack's groomed assistant) era, when Orr was Michigan's winningest coach.
perspective, but Beilein has already dwarfed all of those guys with his career. Open your eyes--amazing things are happening at Crisler. And it's the prettiest brand of bball in the country.
|Dave Strack||1960–68||113–89||.559||58–54||.518||3 Big Ten Conference Championships (1964, 1965, 1966), 2 NCAA Regional Championships (1964, 1965)|
|Johnny Orr||1968–80||209–113||.649||120–72||.625||2 Big Ten Conference Championships (1974, 1977), 1976 NCAA Regional Championship|
|Bill Frieder||1980–89||191–87||.687||98–64||.605||1984 National Invitation Tournament Championship, 2 Big Ten Conference Championships (1985, 1986)|
|1989 NCAA Tournament Championship, 3 NCAA Regional Championships (1989, 1992*, 1993*), 1997 National Invitation Tournament Championship|
|1998 Big Ten Tournament Championship|
|Tommy Amaker||2001–07||109–83||.568||43–53||.448||2004 National Invitation Tournament Championship|
|John Beilein||2007–Present||136–89||.604||61–53||.535||2012 Big Ten Conference Championship, 2013 NCAA Regional Championship|
on his way. In the process of midgeting, let's say.
I don't consider the 1989 NCAA Championship "his".
Other than the great players he recruited, he did nothing with them in terms of actually winning a championship of some kind.
Also, give Dave Strack the credit for Michigan's best recruiting class ever: the class of 1966--Cazzie Russell, John Clawson, Oliver Darden, Jim Myers, John Thompson.
Whoever the best coach in Michigan history is, it sure as hell isn't Steve Fisher. Sorry, Jalen, but the bad counts along with the good. Same goes for you and everyone else who contributed to the decimation of the Michigan basketball program.
May not have been the best coach but he was pretty damned good and still is!
He knows plenty about coaching basketball, he might well be the best coach ever at SDSU, but he should go down as the worst coach ever at Michigan. Imo, he's the person most culpable for the Ed Martin scandal, certainly much more so than Chris Webber. On top of that, he's the guy who brought Ellerbe to AA.
...to label Fisher as "the person most culpable for the Ed Martin scandal" since Ed was around since the Frieder days and there was a lot of raised eyebrows about Michigan recruiting during the '80s. Ask Georgetown fans from that era about Rumeal Robinson, who went to the same HS as Patrick Ewing and was a Hoya lock until the last minute. Sean Higgins's journey to Michigan wasn't exactly a beacon of virtue, either.
Frieder's lead recruiter?
That's the entire period Ed Martin was supposedly around the program. I've never heard anyone say who first got Martin involved. Fisher may not have been the only coach involved, but I don't have reason to accuse Frieder or anyone else. Fisher did more than look the other way, too. I can't forget that he forged Perry Watson's initials in requesting passes for Ed Martin.
Frieder was in charge. Isn't that enough?
I don't see why it's necessary to choose just one guy for all the blame here. I don't doubt that Fisher had primary responsbility for Martin but I don't see why that exonerates Frieder. There was a lot wrong with the Michigan program well before it metastasized in the Taylor/Traylor years.
it was worse than decimation.
this is not helpful to the program.
Coach Beilein promotes a great family atmosphere among the team. If Jalen has something else in his own bloated head, that's his fault. I think Jalen is about a decade late.
OK, Jalen. Wasn't that Steve Fisher at the final four cheering Michigan on? Also, You?? And I've seen JImmy KIng at Crisler, too.
My favorite topic on this board. Gift that keeps on giving.
I feel like, if my account ever gets banned, it will be in a fab five thread.
Jalen, you know it better than anyone "the team, the team, the team"!
Jalen needs to accept that the Fab Five were a cultural phenomenon that won a lot of games but ultimately left a huge black eye on the program.
Now I tend to end up cringing when they're in the news. Everything with Rose and Webber seems to be about Rose and Webber. To imply that MSU is doing well in football* because Fisher and Webber (?) aren't around the program is absurd.
Let it go, Jalen. Summer is over. The harvest has passed.
*That's what he means by evening the playing field, right?
I read a similar article on MLive. Basically, he wants to see some Fab Five memorabilia and recognition in Crisler.
Honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I understand why the university has been hesitant on how to deal with a black eye, but it would be smart to celebrate what they did, both good and bad, for the program and college basketball.
I don't have a problem with that idea either, but Jalen should make that point to Dave Brandon and the new President. I'm positive he has that kind of access. You don't air your dirty laundry in a public forum.
How about some 1989 and prior memorabilia instead? There hasn't ever been a film or a book documenting the story of Michigan Basketball.
I want stories about the Strack days or Orr era. I want to see some artifacts from Yost Field House.
The mlive story referred to memorabilia to Cazzie, the 89 team and Trey Burke. I'd be fine with them putting up more on the 89 team and Orr. 89 team is way overshadowed in my opinion. Still doesn't mean you can't tell the story of the Fab Five.
part of the subtext here is that there was an opening last year and the admin didn't grab it--in fact, it went conspicuously unaddressed. So once again the team is on the rise and Jalen's feeling left out, and lashes out. . .
Really hate his timing here, and am bothered that this gets pointed at Beilein. But not terribly surprised. These guys have nudged Webber, and they have nudged Brandon, and they are still out in the cold; I think that that would hurt.
Rose, Jackson, Howard, and King can be around Michigan as much as they want, can't they? This isn't meant as a rhetorical question, btw. I'm genuinely confused by the notion that they're out in the cold.
back into the fold and acknowledgement of their achievement. Yeah, they can come to games. But that's quite different from being invited to dinners, to talk to the team.
Yes, they are all welcome. Jalen routinely had his Rose Garden groups at games for years during the late Amaker/early Beilein era. He's been honored on the Crisler Court in recent years. To say they are unwelcome is just wrong.
to buy tickets and attend games and an official embrace for the Fab Five. His comments are not about himself alone. He goes out of his way to note that every last former MSU team member is always invited to MSU events.
Again, I'm unhappy about his remarks. But I think I see what place they're coming from.
Michigan State has never vacated a basketball victory.
When they have, and the players responsible are officially embraced by the university, I'll understand his point.
Paps mentioned it, but a reason I thought this was thread worthy is the idea that the Fab Five era is beyond over.
Jalen mentioned the "best coach ever" and at this point, maybe that's true. But, not for long, I believe.
It's the John Beilein era. The Fab Five is over, it's done and everyone has moved on other than, well, the Fab Five.
Tomorrow night Michigan could make that statement with authority. A win on the road, against MSU to go 7-0 in conference when most were hoping we'd have only 2 losses at this point would be huge.
Of course, legacies are made in the tournament, but in my eyes, the greatest Michigan coach is going to be on the court of Breslin tomorrow night and he'll have a chance to add another bullet point to that claim.
And his donations to create the The Rose Garden are wonderful. But all this talk about honoring the Fab 5 over and over is disgusting to say the least. Webber owes the University of Michigan an apology. Until UM gets that there should be no honoring the Fab 5. But what really irks me is the lack of acknowledgement of the other players on both of those teams by Rose. The Fab 5 did not do everything for those teams. They didn't score all the points, get all the rebounds or block all the shots. Rose acts like the other members of the team were nonexistent or just carried the bags for the Fab 5. If Rose would ask for those Teams to be honored with or without Webber then it might happen. Honoring just five guys from a team is a slap in the face to all the other team members.
This is a great point. If I were any of those guys I'd be pissed. Very selfish of Jalen for trying to talk badly about this program unless there was actually something sinister going on behind the scenes which I'm sure is not happening.
I have been trying to find out when Michael talley's jersey is getting retired but the girl at the ticket office keeps saying that she does not know who that is (and to quit winking at her).
Had the same agent as Kobe Bryant, he would get his due. Whatever happened to Eric Riley? Do he and James Vosguil ever hang out and decry their unappreciation? Maybe....just maybe.
Eric Riley does, in fact, decry their underappreciation...at the time, by their Fab Five teammates and by the head coach.
"We felt like it was split. It felt like it was two different teams," Riley said, referring to the Fab Five and the Wolverines players that were there before their arrival. "We had experience, and some of us had been on a team that won a national championship (1989). But we felt like we were just part of their team."
"That was Coach (Steve) Fisher's first recruiting class. We knew he wanted to bring in his own guys, and he let the upperclassmen pretty much know they didn't want us and we were free to go if we wanted to," Riley said in a phone interview with The News-Herald.
Riley was a 2nd round NBA pick If a player of his talents was left to feel he wasn't wanted and was free to go, something was wrong with the family atmosphere at the time. That's the kind of stuff I hate Calipari for.
OT: Line just opened at MSU -6. Give me Michigan and the points all day.
That's... a weird line given Payne and Dawson being out...
and now this.
Comments taken out of context. Jalen loves Michigan and has always been upset that it doesn't seem like Michigan loves him back. Webber took some money, but the rest of the Ed Martin scandal centered on players after the fab five. Fact is, Michigan basketball is very awkward in celebrating former players. This was not an attack on the current coaching staff at all, but one against the athletic department and administration.
especially the notion that the Fab Five were all guilty of taking money from boosters. Not so. It was the class that came after them who were the real problem and Webber and Rose were implicated by their past connection to Ed Martin, the real villain in the entire case.
Whether Michigan went overboard in punishing itself and the legacy of those players is another debate. And whether Michigan has been slow to forgive and welcome them back is also a debatable matter. But the idea that this school and program doesn't promote a family atmosphere and live up to it, requires greater evidence than a broadside from Rose.
And today it just sounds out of context and unjustifiable even if its all about recognition that he he feel hasn't been properly levided.
Maybe Jalen could help promote the healing he seeks if he were to do more reaching out to Belein and the program instead of channeling old rants about a past that actually helped launch the very career of Michigan's arch rival that he claims is so welcoming to its player alums. Michigan State was the huge winner with the sinking of the Fab Five era.
He ought to consider that as well.
Lots of people here seem to think it is Jalen vs current coaching staff. I don't see it that all. It's almost like people didn't even read the actual article.
I love the man. I really do. He is who he is. He will tell you exactly what he thinks. There are times when I'm with him 100% and times when I'm not. This is one where I'm not, but he was a hell of a basketball player and I truly believe, in his heart, he's a good, honorable man, if occasionally led by emotions more than reason.
What the hell is he talking about? So I guess the retired jerseys in the rafters, wall display honoring Cazzie, and reunions honoring past teams don't mean anything. As a young boy I was told "if you're gonna bring up a problem, you better bring up a solution." Maybe its high time Jalen shuts up and brings the family together himself.
.he thinks this is helpful in making his connection and the Fab Five era more meaningful.
What's the point? No family atmosphere because the school won't fly your team's banners? That's got nothing to do with it.
If Jalen watched the press conference today announcing the hiring of the school's 14th president, he might have gotten an inkling what this school values and the kind of emphasis it places on access, diversity, student passion for education learning and athletic competition.
I've always wanted the Fab Five celebrated but I am so SICK of hearing about them.
Maybe this was okay back in 2011 when the documentary came out. But Michigan is fresh off a Final Four, is 6-0 in the conference having beaten two straight top-10 teams and soon to be three after Saturday, and he is still bellyaching about shit that happened years ago?
Very immature. Every time Michigan is in the spotlight it seems he feels the need to bring some upon him and his never ending crusade to get to the banners that will NEVER go back up up.
If I were Michigan, I'd just give him the damn Runner-Up banner he covets so much from the basement at Bentley and be done with it.
You don't see the 1989 guys (who get 1/4 of the attention the Fab Five guys get) begging publicly for attention. BTN goes and demands them for a documentary. Oh, and that one actually has a happy ending.
That tourney run was so exciting... It was my freshman year and the Frieder defection made a deep tourney run unlikely. I still remember celebrating in South U after the victory like it was last week... Rumeal!!
There is no way the University of Michigan is going to give in to these antics. No chance.
Jalen, you're making your martyrdom cause worse.
I'm am not from Michigan, didn't go to Michigan and my fandom for Michigan comes from he Fab Five and guys like Tim Biakabutuka. Although Jalen may be going about things the wrong way he has a point. Jim Harbaugh trashed UM's academics and doesn't seem pro Michigan, a lot of the former players don't seem to be as involved with he bball or fball teams. Lloyd Carr was by all accounts encouraging players to transfer when he retired. I believe Hoke and Beilein have family atmospheres with in the teams they coach but I think Jalen is talking more about former players.
Jalen feels alienated from the university because they distanced themselves from the whole Fab Five era. This is probably unfair but it is what it is and I hope he gets over it for his own sake.
look at me! look at me!
They won that won without breaking any rules and with all eligible players, according to the investigation and ruling. (Webber became ineligible after winning the Elite 8 game, and thus their regional, but before playing the Final Four game)
Then move on.
I like all the things he has done for the city of Detroit, and for making Michigan "cool". But at some point he needs to stop saying controversial things for the sake of publicity. You're relevant man. You're talented. You don't need that.
Always on the eve of a big game. Look at me, I need your attention. You had your day and you were great. Unless you've got positive stuff to say, keep it to yourself.
“I’m going to give you a dirty family secret that Michigan State has done better since 1979 than the University of Michigan has,” Rose began. “They’ve done the absolute best job of number one, having staying power, with Judd Heathcoth and Tom Izzo, so now the players that played for those two coaches are still a part of the fraternity, they’re still welcome as family, whether it’s to stand on the sideline at a football game, whether it’s to be acknowledged at a basketball game. They feel loved, they feel appreciated."
M-Basketball has had stepchild status until very recently. When the Fab Five was there, sellouts were a rarity and they were the hottest thing in college basketball.
Basketball players talk to each other, so who knows what has come up when talking with Steve Smith, Shawn Respert or any of those other guys from the 80s and 90s. Maybe they know more than we do and that's why there seems to be this disconnect between us and them.
His analysis of the two programs is the idiotic icing on the nonsense cake. If anything, M is pulling even with MSU after many years in the wilderness, a wilderness they arrived in due entirely to events which transpired under the nose of Steve Fisher. The "family atmosphere" he cites is nothing more than the end result of having the same coach there for over 30 years (counting his time as an assistant). We could have had that too had we not had to shitcan Steve Fisher for Weber's and others misdeeds. He could still be here today for Christ's sake. Jalen feels shafted, and rightly so in some ways. But he needs to be an adult and realize that the glory that he was a part of was due in part to the fact that ineligible players were on the court. He should stop blaming the athletic dept. or whomever and look inside. I am sure he will get his recognition at some point in time, but I am afraid that it wil only come after he has embarassed himself countless times while slandering the University we love in the process.
Would anyone remember Jud Heathcote if a physical freak we call "Magic" didn't spend two years in East Lansing? I kinda doubt it.
When the Fab Five was there, sellouts were a rarity and they were the hottest thing in college basketball.
That's not my recollection. Their sophomore year, especially, I think we sold out Crisler every game. I went to several games and it was always packed.
Is it that: opinions are like asses, everybody's got one.
Or is it: every ass has got an opinion.
Either way, Jalen is entitled to his opinion and I'm not privy to all the ins and outs of what's going on. I enjoyed watching him and his teammates play for the University of Michigan. I'd like one "I'm sorry" from Chris Webber and then hopefully to start over. The shenanigans from Ed Martin and Chris Webber cratered the program for about a decade (well, the administration had their hand in it too).
I almost wonder whether Jalen is worried that the current era of Michigan basketball may surpass his own...
This sounds like someone thinking it's greener on the other side. He makes assumptions about states atmospheres with just annecdotal evidence. He has no idea what it's like actually being an athlete there, of course things look that way when compared to his experience
So he wants us to be like Ohio State then? Bring back people who were found to have committed major violations that resulted on massive school sanctions and raise them up on our shoulders?
So he wants us to be like Ohio State then? Bring back people who were found to have committed major violations that resulted on massive school sanctions and raise them up on our shoulders?
I admire Jalen for everything he did for the university and for his work in the Detroit community. This makes it hard for me to evaluate what he says without it carrying some weight through my rose-colored glasses (pun intended). None of us know the inside scoop as well as the coaches and players that wore the maize and blue proudly (including CW). I suspect that Jalen has reached out more than once and received a cool response. I am sure that frustrates him. He is a passionate person who clearly cares deeply. I hope it all gets reconciled some day soon because he is good man and I would like him to feel welcome anywhere on campus at every level.
What an idiot. First off, excuse us for not celebrating Steve Fischer, the coach you blindly ignored the payment of players which set the program up for 15+ years of failure. Yes I know Brian Ellerbe...yada yada yada. Steve Fischer caused it and he was fired for it and deserves little fanfare.
Secondly, about Jalen's butthurt-ed-ness: The school had a non contract clause with you for ten years! What were they supposed to do?
Sounds to me like Jalen was hoping Mary Sue was the one keeping the Fab Five at a distance. Maybe he reached out to the new president and found out he's not going to throw a Fab Five reunion either and that hurt his ego. That's my theory.
Love the Fab Five, big part of my childhood and the memories will be there regardless of the banners or records. But Jalen needs to shut up. I swear behind him, Daniel Horton insulting Beilein in 2011 and Braylon's mouth, we have the whiniest bunch of former athletes.
Jalen wasn't banned 10 years. That was Webber, Taylor, Traylor and Bullock.
I don't understand where this is coming from now. As far as I know the program has reached out to him.
Here's an idea: Give Jalen the Final Four banners. Let him hang them in his house, do whatever he wants with them. We're not going to recognize games that the NCAA has vacated, so we may as well get rid of the banners.
The fab five where awesome. They marked the height of Michigan sports popularity. Everyone back then was a Michigan fan. I think the school should show them a little more love. If Michigan had embraced them instead of condemning them at every turn, the last 15-20 years of Michigan basketball/ sports would have went a lot different.
Weber messed up sure, I still loved the guy. I can see not hanging up the banners but some recognition at their alma mater is needed. They changed the face of college basketball and where easily one of the best teams ever.
They were easily one of the best teams ever to never win a championship.
This is Jalen taking a stand for Chris Webber - nothing more, nothing less. He wants his friend from childhood to be made to feel like a welcome part of the Michigan family. He feels like a family wouldn't ostracize a family member for past mistakes. Since Chris is family to him, Michigan doesn't like family, so he's upset.
I'm not so sure Chris Webber feels the same way.
He's standing up for Webber. But Webber needs to own up to his mistake and apologize. If Webber thought of U of M instead of just himself, he would have already done it. But the problem is this has always been about Webber and not the Michigan family.
Just STFU and go away...right now!
But Jalen Rose can fucking blow me. And I won't even give him a courtesty tap.
Petty, petulant, dickhead.
“As a former player, you want to come back and do whatever you can to support your program,” Rice said. “In the past, that reach hasn’t been there. One thing Beilein is stressing to all of us is we need to bring it back to where it used to be, and he can’t do it by himself. He needs all of us as a collective group, and now it’s up to us to give our time and do the right thing.”
Don't let a bookie lend your players money and maybe Fisher will be welcomed back. Jesus Jalen move the fuck on.
You know who will be welcome back? Unconditionally? And it's already happening?
Tim Hardaway, Jr.
They certainly seem to feel welcome and part of the Michigan network, just look at their public comments and Twitter. I include JMo because he will be the next one to go.
Let's add LaVell Blanchard to this list. No one got screwed by Jalen and company as badly as Blanchard did and yet he was nothing but graceful and classy all the way through. Every time I hear Jalen whining about this stuff, I think about what Blanchard must think when he hears it.
luv ya turd
it's funny u say that because I wonder if he and guys like Ron Coleman, Courtney Sims, Josh Asslien, Chris Hunter, Daniel Horton and others feel like Jalen do. Have these guys been involved with program since leaving Michigan? Are they welcomed? This really what Jalen I believe is gettin at. At UNC, the former players always are back in Chapel Hill playing pick up with current team in summer. This should be happening at UM.
they all played for Beilien. of course they would. what Halen is alluding to is those who haven't but are still apart of the Michigan basketball family.
Yeah...Jalen...THAT is why Michigan has lagged behind. The family atmosphere. Nothing to do with breaking rules at ALL.
and then take it down and burn the goddamn thing. Some of the players cheated, just like players at USC, (arguably) worse than players at OSU, and so on. For all the unadulterated bullshit and 30 for 30s about how the Fab Five CHANGED THE WORLD, they hurt Michigan basketball much more than they helped. I am so sick this crap.
I'm so sick if him talking about Michigan. Literally get over yourself. I want to like him so bad. But last year he made that final four appearance all about himself and his former teammates. They're not a part of the program anymore
had always been my favorite of that era but if wants to draw a line...I am standing with Beilein and the direction he's taking the program. I suspect Jalen sees that as Duke-like which grinds him.
went ahead and said some dumb shit.....sorry Jalen, bout to get some backlash.
I would LOVE if D. Howard spoke up and said, thats bull, Michigan is all about family....that would be awesome.
Jalen, maybe if you weren't such an asshole you might feel more welcome at the table.
Example 1) jalen agreed to throw out the first pitch for the UofM night at Comerica Park this past fall. At the last second he bails. However, Jalen's reputation sort of preceded him so we had Jimmy King on standby and he made it to do it. Classy move Jalen.
Example 2) making a big fuss about the acceptance of the Fab Five during last year's final four run. Just couldn't let the spotlight be on the success of last year's team. He had to drag the spotlight back to him.
Example 3) the night before the big game, who goes grabbing for the spotlight....
No family likes the obnoxious spotlight grabber. You want to be a part of the family, ACT THE FUCKING PART.
Jalen...I mean, maybe it was a long time ago but guess what, your team set the program back about ten years. So maybe the program putting some distance between you and your teammates shouldn't come as a surprise.
Wasn't Jalen honored at a game a few years ago. Yes. http://jalenrose.com/press/members-of-michigans-fab-five-honored-at-cris...
What do you want a statue and them to celebrate something that ruined the program for awhile. This isn't OSU. We don't bring former coaches back and celebrate them while still on sanctions.
And 1...and 1!
Well Jalen, don't break NCAA rules that cause those banners to get taken away. Fisher let it happen under his watch, like Carrol with the whole Reggie Bush circus.
Jalen must have missed when Brady was introduced as Michigan's head coach and the amount of former players who were present and who continue to show their support. I don't understand what gives him the right to suggest the football program, under the current regime, doesn't promote a family atmosphere.
Really? One year when I was a student I was at the beginning-of-the-year banquet put on for the athletes by the M Club. They always have a featured speaker, and that year it was jalen. He got up with his custom-embroidered blazer with a big block M on it and talked about how much Michigan means to him and to all athletes. So...what gives?
He has an axe to grind. Two big axes, which are in storage in the Bentley Library. Not sure this is right move to get his way though. Not a great way to endear yourself to the new president, in my opinion.
He clearly stated that "Coach Belien has done a terrific job...." So I doubt this is an attack on the current coaching staff and team. I think it would be nice for Jalen to be embraced a tad bit more by the school since he is an emerging voice in the media.
Plus the university can be a little slow on acknowledging the past. Desmond just had his jersey number honored 20 years after he last played and C. Woodson is still waiting to receive that same honor.
I think you have to graduate before you can get your jersey honored.
The media routinely underestimates Michigan so I'm not surprised with the -6 betting lines.
At the end of the day it just is what it is.
I love Jalen, but I really thought we had closed the book on this one.
While I don't support his comments, I did admire the Fab 5 when I was younger. I was there on South U during the outpouring of people. It was an amazing time in Ann Arbor. Alas...time has now marched on leaving us out in the cold winter.
My belief (and I'm not making an apology for him) is that he is frustrated and feels like this is slipping over the edge into the abyss of history. Webber is going to stonewall until the day he dies. Brandon is calling that bluff. And so Rose is stuck because it can't be the Fab 4 and the banners are going to continue to collect dust, even if they did have a very small chance of re-emergence which I believe would have to be spearheaded by someone with the rank of Brandon. I suppose we all worry about our legacy as we age, Rose may be trying to patch up some of the inadequacies.
Eventually Beilein's successes thru the adversity are going to overwrite all the bad period of M basketball (the true reason for lagging) and while the Fab 5 aren't going to be forgotten, the fact that their film isn't shown to promote M makes them closer and closer to a page in wikipedia.
He and his teammates committed several major NCAA violations. Those violations cost the school two final four appearances and cratered the program for 15+ years. Therefore, many at the school are probably not 100% enthused with associating the current program with the people who destroyed it.
I don't see why this is so hard for Jalen to comprehend.
Not only it cratered our program, but it SPAWNED msu and izzo. It started with cleaves who was slated to go blue until that accident. Before this the only notable history their program had was magic johnson.
However, Rose is speaking some truth here. I was a frosh in 89 and fifth yr senior for webbers timeout. The disassociation should not be absolute, and it does seem that there hasnt been enough true effort to bring the Beatles back together. The program failed the players too in our blinding spotlight and everything that goes with it. You all know that Talley was screaming to call a TO, right? And the media ate Webber alive for it and no mention of it. Our AD profitted immensely for the same product left a bit unguided.
Only Webber committed violations from the Fab Five. Jalen was never accused of doing anything wrong. It was Webber, Taylor, Traylor, and Bullock.
As someone who has occasionally listened to Rose on his podcast as well as other off-the-cuff situations, this probably isn't even the top half-dozen dumbest things he's said.
Webber and Rose are carrying some torch for the Fab 5 because they can't admit that their era is forever marred with scandal. Is it hypocritical for the NCAA to freak out about Webber and Martin while getting billion-dollar TV rights for the games? Sure. But there were rules in place, and Martin, Webber, Rose, Fisher, and various other parties screwed it up so royally that the banners had to come down and their records had to be erased from the recordbooks. It sucks for them, but they aren't victims and certainly aren't in the position to take the moral high ground they are presently occupying.
This wasn't great timing for UM, but like most latent diseases they tend to flare up when you least expect them. I hope Rose loves his work at ESPN/Grantland and piggybacking on the team's success last year, but if the athletic department ever wants to revoke his press pass, that would be fine by me.
It's time to honor Jamal Crossover.
Unfortunately, Jamal may not be the best representative either. He basically lost his eligibility because of a similar situation in HS, if memory serves me right.
Boo freakin' hoo, Jalen. Y'all cheated, or at least watched while your teammates cheated. BFD, your coach stood by and watched, and got what he deserved. Fischer inherited Frieder's team anyway. I was there in '89, and we won it with honest players winning things honestly. You guys hopped on after the fact, and never accomplished anything. Not a single championship. Waa waa waa.
With all the 'belein greatest coach' talk let's see how we continue to build, because if we started playing poorly in 3-5 years (not that I believe it would happen) or if another scandal occurred, the same fate as Steve fisher could be his fate (once again, I don't believe this would happen but you never know)
Someone tell jalen to stfu and stop bitchin about nonsense shit!
Jalen, you left the program after 1 year with a scandal that took 20yrs to recover from. You are a great family member. Sorry the athletic dept. doesn't really feel like giving you a warm welcome back. I mean how long was he actually in AA? 8-9 months?
Rose played at Michigan for 3 years.
The Fab Five reaching back to back final games was kind of a big deal. Jalen played three seasons.
Haha! Someone's wrong on the internet!
What do you mean? He left after his junior year.
Whoops, should do better research. To be fair I was born the same year of the fab five.
That atmosphere is reserved for those who did not vault the program into a shameful disgrace. "We're both part of the same hypocrisy, senator, but never think it applies to to my family...."
I was on campus during that short-lived gilded age - and we all looked the other way while we basked in the glory. Meanwhile (most of) these guys were getting racist hate mail, ballin' and taking advantage of every crack in the system. It's time we acknowledge their (crestfallen; erstwhile) greatness and also take some responsibility for the era.
I will always love those guys. Jinx especially as the heart of that group. It was a crazy time and we all bought into it. The fallout was appropriately shunned and Jalen is grown up enough to know that his penance and those of his fellow (implicated) Fab-5ers has not fully been embraced across the Michigan spectrum.
If you feel responsible for the era that is fine by me. But, I don't feel the least bit responsible for crimes committed by Webber and the others and I never will.
And, if we are quoting from movies: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
I've long distanced myself from those guys. I used to appreciate them but now it's getting tired. Go away. Not all of them of course, but him and Webber get on my nerves.
love jalen and he isnt wrong. truth is how you grow. he loves UM
Usually he comes across as a sharp and interesting guy.
Here he comes across like an idiot - he needs to let this alone for a while.
I'm sorry, but neg away. This makes me so fucking angry.
It's absolutely amazing to me how self-absorbed the Fab Five guys are about their "legacy," especially when just about every time they open their mouths about it, it takes away from Michigan student-athletes who actually won something, and who managed to do it without any of their teammates taking money from a number-running booster.
Plainly, Jalen needs to shut the hell up already. Enough is enough. You can't have a "family atmosphere" when a subset of alumni (who already acted a subset of the teams they actually played on) seems to think they don't get enough attention. You'd think Michigan didn't win an NCAA title two years before these guys set foot on campus.
This year/spring is the 25th anniversary of the 1989 basketball champs. If Jalen had any respect for the players who came before him, or after him for that matter, he would spend his time talking about the inspiration of the 1989 run.
Jalen gone Jalen....
maybe we could add him to the list of people we are tired of talking about and move on?
Ps. I have a friend from the mid 80s basketball teams and he has always talked about Michigan as a family atmosphere (we have known each other since 2006, long before Belien Championships and he never said anything but positive things about the university and how they treat former players)
I hear that^^^^
I am so sick of all of the fab five talk. Yes they brought a certain coolness and popularity to Michigan basketball, but at the end of the day are a huge stain on the entire program. They also didn't win a damn thing. No big ten titles, no national championships, nothing. Jalen sounds bitter. I have watched the 89 special a few times, and that team deserves every bit of attention that the fab five gets. If anyone has some 89 game film, all youtube has is the national champioship game, I would love to see the virginia or UNC game in that tourny.
Let's watch the "didn't win a damn thing" talk - unless you're prepared to say the same about the 2013 team.
I agree 100% that they come off as self-absorbed, but they absolutely were great players and going to the title game two straight years is a hell of a feat.
With Jalen having so much air time and saying so much he is bound to say things that in hind sight may not be the best. They are just words people. I'm sure other alumni will come forward to dispute the claims.
Jalen has done some nice things at UM (Rose Garden for kids comes to mind). Let's not hate a fellow alum for a few misguided words.
Just my take. Peace out.
Jalen Rose comment; back when all the heat came down on the Webber thing, it really soured the Fab Five legacy. These kids were of course very talented and ushered in the playing of freshman at the D1 level in a big way. Following the revelations of money exchanging hands, head coach Fisher was discharged and his reputation remains sullied to this day. Unfortunately, the bad taste in everyone's mouth over the whole thing has never really gone away and the Fab Five moslty moved on to make millions in the NBA but now in retrospect want to blame the university for what happened. Hard to feel sorry for someone who earned his strips wearing maize and blue goes on to make more money than he ever dreamed of and now wants to further damage the reputation of Michigan's re-emerging BB program. Pretty sorry commentary on Rose and his character if you ask me.
Everyone got all shook up over the FAB5 scandal... subsequently as years have passed they have been slow to bury the damn thing. I would like to clean it up and get an official end to the posturing.
You can take the boy out of the hood, but you can't take the hood out of the boy.
I mean, look at his fashion statement on (1) College Game Day today and (2) the NBA Draft many moons ago.
Michigan basketball does have a family atmosphere and he's upset that he isn't a part of it. I like him, but some of the stuff he says is off the wall. Just Jalen being Jalen, I guess.
I would argue that even after the scandal with the Fab Five that the Fab Five are celebrated by many in the Michigan community. I understand Jalen's bitterness, but he doesn't seem to understand when to pick his battles....
But he's got a VERY valid point.
It's been a long time... And regardless of the scandal, what these 5 and Fisher had done for the University cannot be overlooked and should be celebrated. Fisher has been cast off and the school does need to recognize the $ influx and what the team had done for them.
On the other hand, he's definitely wrong with the current program under Beilein. They're as tight as you'd like to see and keep alumni around... See what they've done with CJ Lee, Merritt, etc. Celebrated Cazzie. He's a little too focussed on the attention he thinks his time with the university and not seeing what they're doing now.
With that said, he is mostly right in what I think he's getting at.
is erroneously referred to as the Fab Five scandal is different from Bo's decision to dismiss Frieder on the eve of the NCAA tournament in 1989?
Why doesn't Jalen comment on that issue from the standpoint of a "family atmosphere" context in the history of Michigan basketball? That was tough love from Michigan's resident Godfather.
There was doubt whether Fisher would even get a chance to coach the Fab Five if Michigan had faltered in the tournament.
Michigan responded to the scandal based on its core values, and sacrificed the great success achieved by the Fave Five in the process. And that hurts deeply. And it was especially hurtful during the years that followed.
You know I think Jalen has taken it upon himself to reach out and find ways to explain what happened with himself and those guys during their heyday.He helped produce a great documentary on the team. And he expected Michigan would reciprocate at some point. And because Michigan was embarrassed by that whole episode, it has chosen so far, whether rightly or wrongly, not to relive it in terms of recognizing those guys.
And those guys were largely blameless for the Ed Martin scandal which was primarily a booster problem that plagued many programs in college basketball including some schools that were championship titans like UCLA and UNLV, which either avoided NCAA problems or became the posterboys for them. Michigan fell into that trap and because of the notoriety surrounding the Fab Five image and the school's adherence to doing the right thing, we've seen the results.
The aftershock of all of that, which Jalen won't even address, is that out of the ashes of the Ed Marin case, which began with a traffic accident involving Michigan recruit Mateen Cleaves, is the emergence and ascendancy of the Spartan basketball program under Tom Izzo. It was a direct result. And Cleaves led the last Big Ten NC team in 2001.
So, Jalen needs to reconsider his POV based on the actual turn of events from his era to now, and not just look at them through the lens of his own experience before condemning the treatment of his team's memory at Michigan. We all loved the Fab Five and want to see them honored and welcomed back.
He has a lot more experience than I do. Take it at face value. However, I don't get the feeling that it applies much to the current program
I don't ever remember JB embracing the past like was expected of RR. Could this be part of of what is bothering Jalen? I'm guessing that since basketball was in such bad shape when he arrived there was no mandatory asskissing needed and he could get to work building his program in his way with his players.
As a basketball junkie I've followed JB since his Richmond days and when he moved to Michigan I was thrilled.
Of course JB wasn't expected to embrace the past. He and Amaker were hired with the express intention that they would wipe the slate clean, that there would be no hint of a recurrence of the sort of activities that the department sees as a shameful time in its history.
Rodriguez's situation was entirely different in that regard. There was nothing embarrassing in the football program's past, no reason to put that past behind them.
I think the real issue here is that Rose doesn't agree with the assessment of '90s Michigan basketball as a shameful period. He completely ignores that piece of it when he makes his arguments. Why make the comparison to MSU, and not to some school that's faced a similar situation? He could say "look at UK--they retired Ralph Beard's number and nobody at Michigan ever did anything nearly as bad as Beard." But no, his comparisons are to schools that have never been through a scandal. Is that because he doesn't see anything particularly scandalous about the Martin saga?
and kudos to him for using his education classes to help him become a first-rate
NBA analyst. But Jalen left Michigan a long time ago and would not have a clue as to
what the "family atmosphere" was like at Michigan today.