Team A Team B
15 Fr or So defensive 2 deep 12 Fr or So
50th in NCAA Run D 57th in NCAA
83rd in NCAA Pass D 117th in NCAA
68th in NCAA Total D 106th in NCAA
29th in NCAA Scoring D 89th in NCAA
Team A is Oklahoma
Team B is obvious
The youth excuse is a valid one for being a below average/poor defense at Michigan. Its not an excuse for being the worst defense in history of the school and/or possibly the conference.
were those Oklahoma players rated coming out of high school? I know that doesn't always matter but it usually makes a pretty big difference.
I'm simply saying, anyone saying that youth is the reason our defense is what it is, either doesn't understand the complexity of the situation, or doesn't grasp how truly awful our defense is.
two seniors, a junior, and a sophomore. This allows you to do a lot of things on D. The real break down is 14 Freshman or sophomores and not one true freshman starts. 3 true freshman 2 four star one three star, 2 RS frosh both four star, 4 true sophs 3 four star and a three, and 5 RS sophs 1 5 star, 3 four stars, and a three star. OU upper classman starters 3 5th yr. seniors with two 4 star and one 3 and 3 4th yr Jrs all 4 stars.
There is no comparison as Michigan's only upper classman in the secondary is James Rogers and he's not a true DB.
Historically, Oklahoma and Michigan have recruited about equally well. If we aren't bringing in quality defensive recruits, that's not a positive reflection on the staff.
back seven recruiting was pretty poor despite a significant need. If we are starting primarily freshman and sophomores it reflects poorly on the previous regime.
how many of those Fr/So at Oklahoma are RS's?
Currently looking that their depth, and you can throw out the nickle back (replaced by the WLB
so they effectively are starting on D..
4 So/RS Fr
4 RS Fr or SO
2 FR (WRs) (included both TE and SL WR)
not entirely sure they are the best comparison...
And luxurious hair.
I literally can't stop laughing at your avatar.
It doesn't last long enough. Something more like valium.
Or that could be the problem. He doesn't get enough sleep because his drugs don't last long enough.
I'd like to see lots of underclass on the 2-deep (preferably the second string) as it means the kids being brought in are talented / developing quickly.
That many on the starting line, means there are retention/ attrition problems.
So - how many of OK's underclassmen are starting 11 on Defense vs. how many of Michigan's? I have a feeling that may be telling.
5 starters for Oklahoma are Fr or So, 6 for Michigan
These numbers don't exist in a vacuum. There is context (redshirts) that hopefully you're not intentionally leaving out to prove your point.
That's at least 4 upperclassmen out of 6 that will be in the NFL. All that and the D is STILL not great!?
This is big. Of those 6, 2 are freshmen, and two of the sophomores are new starters. The other part that adds to it is that all 6 are in the back 7 (well, 8) and 4 are DB's.
this is completely wrong
There are four total, three in the back eight, and two of them are DBs. The fourth is RS sophomore d-lineman. Oklahoma has two seniors and a junior in their secondary.
Not wrong. Our six are Kovacs, Demens, Floyd, Roh, Spur (one of the Gordons) and FS (Carvin or Vinopal). All of those are in the back 8 (DBs and LBs). 4 DBs and 2 LBs.
I'm sorry. That's a reading comprehension fail on my part. I thought you were talking about OU's defense, not Michigan's.
Hell, I would throw in a tailback and 2 schollies from the up-coming recruiting class.
Exactly. They're starting seven upperclassmen and a redshirt sophomore. This defense just doesn't compare to Michigan's experience-wise.
Youth+career backup veterans starting= turrible defense.
Team B is predominately 2 and 3 star talent who happen to be FR and SO and some are playing positions they did not play in HS. Team A is predominately 4 and 5 star talent playing postions they played before.
RR has said talent and speed are lacking on D. Star rating might not be the end all be all, but it is a good barometer. Not to mention some of our recruits are tweeners or HS QBs not experienced in the positons they are playing..it factors. Look at Tony Jefferson for OU. High ranked recruit playing well for them.
Will the excuses never end.
First, those defending our defensive problems pointed to youth. Now the OP has laid out a situation where a team with as much youth has done a mediocre job of fielding a decent defense, and the excuse morphs to, "well, their youth must be better than our youth."
I don't doubt that Ok may hay higher rater youth than us. But, on that point, I have two counterpoints:
1. Wasn't one of the supposed strengths of this staff the ability to "coach up" lewer rater players into lean, mean fighting machines capable of unleashing havos? Why has this not happened?
2. Who recruited this less talented youth? If they are freshmen, they must have been recruited under RR's watch. So if these players are so bad, why recruit them? Why are other teams able to get better recruits? In fact, shouldn't our thin defense actually give us a recruiting advantage, because we can sell immediate playing time?
because they have been on campus for what 4 months?
Its not JUST the freshman. Its the career backups and backups to the backups Seniors that are starting as well. Look I root for James Rodgers all day long but in the end there is a reason he moved around 5 times and never saw the field for anything but mop up duty. He plays his ass off but it's just not there.
RR has swung and missed on some recruits and in my opinion two D Coordinators. I think (HOPE) he now sees that he cant go after these borderline guys. It's one thing to take the risk on a guy like Dorsey not getting in. But another to do it on project guys.
I see the defense and I think it should be better as well. Im also excited about a lot of the young guys RR has recruited. I just think there needs to be better defensive coaching around them.
Honestly, the OP didn't point out anything. This is a totally different situation. His numbers are not not only misleading, they're inaccurate.
In their basic 4-3 starting package against Texas A&M, Oklahoma started:
2 Sophomores on their line, both redshirt sophs.
2 Sophomore linebackers, one redshirt.
One Sophomore CB
Only 2 of these positions are backed up by a fresh or soph. So youth is beating out experience, however these kids are working with experienced players as they learn their positions.
The Oklahoma defensive coaching staff has been together for 12 years in Olkahoma (with the exception of their secondary coach, who's in his first season).
My point is that one can make almost anything fit their argument if you twist it just right, but we're comparing apples to kiwi here.
Star ratings are a terrible excuse. It's not like our defense hasn't had it's share of highly rated guys. We've had our share of high 4 star and 5 star guys that last few years, that haven't panned out (B. Smith, Lalota, Turner, Campbell (at least thus far on the D, as he's switching to OG), Cissoko, Witherspoon, maybe JB Fitz too). You can call these players lazy, but you have to give the coaches some blame for lack of development and/or recruiting lazy guys.
For what it's worth, in response to Tony Jefferson, Cullen Christian was the No. 3 CB in the country (on Scout). Not exactly chopped liver there.
I also think it's ludicrous when we complain about 3/4 star guys starting for us , like it's a bad thing (as if you need to be a 5 star to play). Go back the last 3 or 4 recruiting classes, and you'll see that most of our players are clearly higher ranked than places like TCU, where they churn our phenomenal defenses every year. That's indicative of coaching there.
Speaking of TCU, who the hell is their D Coordinator and why don't we have a private jet heading to ft worth as we speak?
Dick Bumpas. I was going to say it might be like a Pete Carroll situation at USC, where Patterson is really running the D at TCU, but in all fairness to Bumpas, he was a finalist for the Broyles award (award for nation's top assistant) the last couple years. That seems to suggest that he's not just along for the ride and the stellar D can also be partly attributed to him.
I'm going to go out on a limb and and guess that even if Bumpas primary responsibility is to ensure Patterson has a fresh cup of coffee all day, he could still put forth a better product on D than Gerg.
Furthermore, his name is absolutely awesome and I would love to say it more often.
I think the ratings matter somewhat, you don't that is fine. Look at the D recruits we are in on right now, then go look at a Texas or Oklahoma and compare. Our mean is 3 star. Granted Texas D is not very good with all those high ranked players but I would say their problem is fixable. Ours as RR has said is talent and speed, which cannot be coached up.
It's not youth it's also playing experience. There's also a reason why some of the upper classmen haven't seen the field until this year.
i think the point is also that you can play youth when they're immediate impact high 4 and 5 star types. our youth is less talented. so while they may be good players ultimately, those sorts of players ordinarily develop while older players are on the field. that's not happening right now.
Don't say that....sarcasm/
But if true, why aren't we recruiting instant-impact guys on D?
Why aren't we recruiting 5* instant impact guys like HCD?
I'm beginning to hate you. Also our record the last 2 years makes instant impact guys not want to come here.
Look, recruiting is part of RR's job. He doesn't have a general manager to get him players. He's got to go out and get them (and make sure they make it to campus and stay). You can't make excuses for that. If he needs good recruits to win, and if his own poor record is preventing the program from signing those good recruits, then why exactly should we keep him around?
on D left over from the LC era that would be RS sophs, juniors or seniors? Just come out and say you want him fired as every post indicates it. Grow a set.
2006 class would be RS seniors- Banks, Stevie Brown, Ezeh, Ferrera, Kates, Mixon, Mouton, Patilla, Patterson, Woods, BG
2007 (after starting previous year 11-0) RS juniors- Chambers, Evans, Herron, Sagesse, RVB, Warren, Williams, Woolfolk
2008 (LC recruits only)- Cissoko, Demens, Fitzgerald, Martin, Smith, Witherspoon
That's three years worth of D recruits with 5 current starters out of 25 recruits. BG and Stevie used up eligibility and were much better players under RR than LC. Warren made a poor choice to leave early.
RR 08- Floyd, Hill 1 for 2
2009- 10 recruits if you count Cam with two starters
2010- 15 recruits questionable on starters (Vinopal, Marvin) but shouldn't be starting anyways they're true freshman.
Kovacs not a recruit but belongs with the RR slate. So RR has one RS soph that he recruited on D and the rest either being true soph, RS frosh or frosh and has one more starter than the LC recruits that are RS sophs at the youngest.
player development. The offense is fine. The defense has zero player development. The LB's haven't gotten better, the corners haven't gotten better, and the most basic skill to play defense (tackeling) hasn't gotten better. If RR doesn't get the axe, The entire defensive staff should.
disagree with you. What is this tackeling you talk about?
With a team this young, I would have expected to see our defense get BETTER over the course of the season, as the players got used to the speed of the college game, got more comfortable in the system, get stronger and had more time to be coached on how to play their positions well.
This has not happened. If anything, we are getting worse.
The competition has gotten better.
Not last Saturday. PSU was the worst offensive team we've faced since the nonconference season.
I'm interested to see if McGLoin keeps playing whether the PSU offense looks better than it did earlier this year. That QB competition was supposedly close, so maybe McGloin is just better than Bolden.
That said, and I don't know about stat rankings and all that, but I think Penn State's offense is better than UConn, BGSU or UMass. Or ND w/out Crist, for that matter (which is what UM faced for a large part fo that game).
My point was just that the claim that the D has regressed has to be based on comparing apples to oranges. The tough(ish) nonconference schedule we thought we were facing turned out not to be very tough at all. UConn and ND stink a lot more than expected.
I don't think they've regressed. I think they've been basically the same level of terrible all year.
Our D played a rather solid game against Iowa,( which had me hopeful) ... a team that trashed Penn State. Penn State gained 300 total yards against Iowa ... we had over 500. Royster had 56 yards against Iowa ... he had 150 against us. PSU started a walk-on QB in his first start ever and our D gave him time to throw essentially on every down. We should have blitzed all night long. They had 1 returning receiver ... PSU had lost all their offensive power from last year. McGloin isn't any good (you will see) ... we just make all QB's look like All-Americans !!
IMO this ws the worst game the D has played all year. Penn State scored 41 pts. ... In B10 play they were averaging 13 freaking points a game and they put 41 on us !!! (they scored 44 on Youngstown State FCS) They didn't score on huge plays (like MSU) they made long time consuming drives. We are the first B10 team that PSU led in time of possession.
Don't get me wrong ... I love Michigan and I am so tired of the players taking the blame for GERG's failures. These kids play hard & we have talent ... what we do not have is a defensive coordinator that knows jack-shit how to coach them up. GERG's scheme must be so easy for offenses to read, that teams have no problem moving the ball on us. C'mon no turnovers in 3 games ... what's the record for turnover ineptness ( and yes this isn't a luck statistic ... its a defensive statistic).
Just watch how many times RR is in GERG's face during the games ... you don't see this on TV - only when you are at the games. RR is a team guy ... and he's not going to fire GERG during the season .... IMO - an early Christmas present to the U of M football team would be to have GERG resign .... NOW. Only a change at the top is going to impact our defensive production.
Go Blue !
I wouldn't even say the D played well against Iowa. Yes, it didn't give up as many yards as usual, but it couldn't get an actual stop to save its life.
but maybe better than "average". Here are the number of punts we have forced in B10 play:
Indiana 4 / MSU 4 / Iowa 5 / PSU 2 (ugh)
and if memory serves me correctly, I think we started the Iowa game with a 3 and out and I'm not sure if we've done that otherwise to start a game ( trying to forget those other games).
I think its important to focus on our Big 10 play. It is Michigan's #1 goal every single year ... to WIN the Big Ten Conference. What happens after that is icing on the cake ... but the bakery has been closed for way to long now !!!
Go Blue !
But I think we are seeing some development, but at the same time it has been incremental and retarded somewhat by the beatings the defense has received all year. The announcers pointed this out a couple of times during the PSU game, but this secondary has been burned so much that the players look tentative out there, constantly second-guessing themselves instead of playing instinctively. You see that with this team - guys are now missing tackles not because they don't know how to do it, but because they are tentative and, thus, taking bad angles or trying to do too much (like strip the ball or pick off the pass).
Demens has grown into a decent LB, and Mouton went from Ezeh-ish to competent, possible-fring NFL player. Mike Martin took a huge step forward before the injury, and Kovacs is having a very good season given some of his limitations. There are guys out there who shouldn't be playing, but as others have pointed out, this year's defensive struggles will likely pay off next year and beyond as they guys return with experience.
Since the beginning of conference play, Mouton has been brutal. He's regressed to the undisciplined player he was last year, easily run out of position. The jury's out on Demens.
I think Mouton has been basically what he is - a good athlete who doesn't know how to keep contain but can make plays at least enough of the time to not kill you like Ezeh. The quality of competition has changed and that is why those mistakes are amplified, but he's still better than he was last year. Last year, watching him and Ezeh man the middle of the field, I sometimes threw up in my mouth.
You expect freshman to make some mistakes, miss assignments, be out of position and such, but why can't they at least tackle, I have to assume that they had to also tackle in high school right? If we could just learn how to wrap up and stop all this YAC we just might be able to get some 3 and outs.
doesn't have a 5th year Senior playing CB who until this never saw the field except on Special Teams, and has bounced between offense and defense a number of times.
Team A doesn't have a 5th year Sr LB who was so bad at his position he was replaced in mid-season by a Sophomore
Team A doesn't have a former walkon starting, at any position.
Team A didn't lose their Sr starting CB, forcing an inexperienced position swith player to play
Team A doesn't have a former QB recruit playing in nickle packages
Team A doesn't have a former WR player the safety positions.
Team A has Bob Stoops, one of, if not the best defensive minds in the game. Team B has one of, if not the best offensive minds in the game.
Here's Oklahoma's depth chart:
Let's compare the DBs, where UM currently has the worst unit (or darn close to it) in Michigan history. Here's Oklahoma:
SS Nelson, SR (honarable mention Big 12 last year, i.e., not a James Rogers "Senior)
FS Carter, SR (all Big 12 second team last year)
CB Fleming, JR (earned a letter last year)
CB Hurst, SO (earned a letter last year)
Nickel Ibilove, SO (earned a letter last year)
- Michigan starts a first-year converted WR, a RS-So, RS-So, a RS-Fr, and a FR, i.e., three first time starters. Also, all of those folks backups are either RS-Fr or Fr.
Nice try though!
Michigan starts a first-year converted WR, a RS-So, RS-So, a RS-Fr, and a FR, i.e., three first time starters.
IMO, the greatest fault of RR/ GERG was poor recruiting leading to the above. It's not just youth, but talent and (apparently) GERG doesn't travel much and can't recruit and if RR wants to spend his time recruiting offensive players, there is obviously a problem.
The OP just showed 2 things that we can all agree on:
1)talent > youth and
We are short on both.
While I agree with your final 2 points, the porr recruiting angle is off base. Why would RR have gone out in 2008 or 2009 and recruited a bunch of CBs / S. At that point we had what looked like a deep and talented group of kids plus a 5* CB already committed. Really, at that point this year would have featured booboo, warren, JT floyd, JT Turner, Wolfolk, Williams, Smith, Chambers, Witty, Jones, Gordon (maybe both), Vlad.
Why heap more dudes on top of that? Lots of top ranked guys, good depth... look perfect to everyone. So good that when Witty was inexplicably forced out.. no biggy. Then when injuries, flunk outs, burn outs and brain farts started taking their toll, he went and grabbed 3 S and 3 CB in the next class.
I would love to join the masses and grab a pitchfork, but I just don't see this being on RR.
Why did he go out and recruit a whole mess of wide recivers all in the same class then? Chambers was already gone when RR got here. His entire first class was foused on instaling his offense here and we are paying the price for his ovesight of the defense now.
You can't just throw this out there and say, "That's that."
There are several other factors to consider here. Here's one:
Oklahoma was 8th in the nation in total defense in 2009. They have dropped to 68th in 2010.
Michigan was 82nd in the nation in total defense in 2009, They are now 106th.
I am also curious: did you have to go all the way down the rankings to the 68th best defense in the country to find a team with comparable lack of experience? If so, that really doesn't do much to support your case.
if we had the 68th ranked defense in the country, we would not have elevated a walk on qb, making his first start, to a heisman candidate level. and we would probably be 7-1.
and not a flaky 7-1, with last minute wins against the likes of indiana and umass. i am not even going to mention ND. they just lost to Tulsa. but we would be a solid 7-1, with large margins of victory against these powerhouses.
but as it stands now, we are going 5-7.
It's a real shocker that the guy who is way in the negative can't grasp the point.
Tell the Head Football Coach that you would like to sponsor a game between the Varsity and the Freshman teams. You are there to prove a point. The point is that it's not always about youth. You are willing to bet that the Freshman will "hold their own" and, your willing to fund the athletic programs for the rest of the year if it doesn't happen.
Then get your checkbook ready.
The more I look at this, the more I realize that OP chose an absolutely terrible example for comparison.
Oklahoma's DB recruits have ended up at, and stayed on, campus I would assume. That's the major issue, all of our talent is gone. Justin Turner/Demar Dorsey/Vlad Emilien/Boubocar Cissoku/(others I forgot while counting heads leaving the door) seemed like a great recruit, but they're not here. Oklahoma has had their young incoming top talent stay, we haven't.
Including that Safety from Southern California Tony Jefferson. We were in his final 2 with OU.
Likely going to be Big Twelve Freshman of the Year. Anyone have any other wounds they want me to douse with rubbing alcohol?
While we are playing a lot of true freshman and underclassmen on Defense, our offense is also fairly young and seems to be doing just fine. Can there be that much of a pure talent disparity on the defensive side of the ball?
Another poster a billion threads ago made this comparison. How good was a freshman Denard Robinson? Now compare him to the sophomore Denard. Both are still young, but one year can make a world of difference in college.
I could also go over all the sophomores and juniors (many of them RS) who were returning starters/contributors from last year, and how we don't start any Freshmen on offense except Lewan (who's a RS-Freshman, at that), but I think you get the idea.
The offensive guys also have competent coaching. Whether that's true for the defensive guys is very much in doubt.
is that Michigan has had a terrible defense for three years. The problem is more than youth. It' s coaching from the top on down.
I don't have enough points to start my own thread so I tried to find the most relevent place to post this.
I just stumbled across an old ESPN ranking by McShay that had Obi Ezeh as the 5th best senior linebacker. I know this has been mentioned on the site before, but seriously!! Statements like this just show me that Blogs that are as well done as this one know more about a program and its players than the National Folk.
Too bad McShay was wrong. Uggh.
Sorry, just had to say (type) that out loud.
Well, Ezeh did start some games as a redshirt freshman in 2007, and didn't look all that bad doing so. Maybe - maybe- with Szabo still around to coach him, he'd have turned out differently.
we have problems in more than one area on the defense for more than one reason.