Noooooope. Your post includes all relevant information. On almost every other ranked program almost all these players would still be on the bench. It's always fair to evaluate the coaches, but we have to be really careful to recognize the incredible youth of the backfield.
Is it time to evaluate the capabilities of the DB coaches?
No. It's time to sit back and watch more highlights of Denard. Watch a great DB class come in and then evaluate.
Sure, why not? It couldn't hurt. By the way, what are these "issues you would account to coaching" that you speak of?
I would definitely be interested in hearing the coaching issues you noted. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I noticed the DB's playing tighter than they have in previous games and yards are to be expected when the offense passes 60+ times.
LOL a Turd trying not to be a Dick, I find this incredibly dumb, juvenile and humorous.
I noticed the DB's playing tighter than they have in previous games and yards are to be expected when the offense passes 60+ times.
That's a problem, if true, because we still weren't sticking tight to the receivers. Besides, Indiana still averaged 7.5 yards per attempt and completed over 70% of their passes.
Yards are to be expected, but Michigan only had 3 PBUs and 1 INT in 64 attempts.
and when? I can't remember any.
I said in an earlier post that the ratio of PBUs to pass attempts was shocking. if you were playing DB in backyard football against someone much bigger, stronger, and faster than you, you'd still, by chance, pick up a break-up more than one out of twenty times, right? I don't know what the underlying issues are, but I also don't know how scholarship athletes at Michigan can't break up more passes than 1/21.
Cam Gordon, JT Floyd, and Jonas Mouton each had one. I remember Floyd's and Mouton's, but not Gordon's.
Put it this way: I was horsing around with some of our players on Saturday, and I broke up 1 out of the 4 passes thrown to the kids I was guarding. And I have no business running around a football field with a bunch of 17-year-olds.
sounds like your team sucks then
But I'm guessing those kids are a tad less accurate than Ben Chappell.
Gordon's breakup came when he dove and nearly intercepted a bal in the first half. I believe it was on their second scoring drive.
They're sitting in a zone and trying to force college quarterbacks to consistently move the ball, assuming that the majority of college quarterbacks cannot do it with the consistency to outscore Michigan's offense.
The huge plays have been significantly reduced compared to last year, which is a huge improvement. If Woolfolk didn't get hurt, you'd probably see some more inventive schemes and tighter coverage.
As it is now, they're starting a converted receiver, a guy who was so hopelessly over matched last year that Kovacs became a deep safety, two redshirt freshmen, and a walk-on. What do you want from the staff as far as player development and coaching? I want better player retention, but I don't know the inside story about any of the departures.
improved defensive recruiting (or increased focus to that side of the ball) to your desire to see better player retention. I assume now that we have the offense up and running that we will bot get what we desire (for Michigan Football only).
You probably wouldn't say that if Turner, Cissoko, Emilien, and Dorsey,were all on the team and developing normally. Add an uninjured Woolfolk, and you've got two veteran cornerbacks who are at least serviceable, a 5* safety in Turner, a 4* safety in Emilien, and Dorsey playing nickelback while pushing Cissoko for his starting slot. It's not too hard to imagine that secondary pulling this defense up to around 60 in the country--which would make this team a serious Big 10 title contender.
Obviously, things don't work out all the time, players get injured, and some players get felony convictions, but the cumulative effect is an indictment of the staff, IMO.
I don't know about huge plays being "significantly" reduced. I feel like we've still given up our share. But what I do know is, 5 games in we are giving up approximately 80 passing yards per game more than last year, and are currently dead last in the country in pass defense. I agree that the players you've mentioned should not be starting, but in three years the defense has actually managed to regress every year. Mind you, the reference point isn't the 2006 Woodley/Harris defense here, the 2008 defense was at that time the worst defense in Michigan history. 2009 was worse, and we are on pace to obliterate the 2009 mark this year. I don't think we should be dead last in the country even with this current group of players we have. Don't you think at least some of that falls on this scheme that we are playing? Bend don't break seems more like bend over and take-it-up-the-you-know-what currently.
To me, the biggest indictment of the RichRod regime so far has been the complete inability to improve our defensive personnel/depth. You are right, those players should not be starting. But whose fault is it that three years in that these are the players starting? We've had ridiculous attrition, and more non-qualifiers than I can ever remember having (of course recruiting coverage wasn't so intense in the past, but apart from Slocum, I can't remember any in the years I have followed Michigan). I really want RichRod to succeed, and I love watching this offense, but I am genuinely worried that unless the defense miraculously improves in the next year or two, and we start winning more B10 games, this experiment might be cut short.
BG's pass rush plus Warren and Woolfolk has nothing to do with it. Throw in the graduation of Stevie Brown a Sr. and you have a defensive backfield made up of two guys who aren't DBs, Rogers and Cam (a LB imho), and a bunch of freshman or RS freshman.
Our highly ranked guys by the so called experts haven't panned out or didn't qualify. Our D is what it is and did give us the opportunity to go up two TDs on a couple of occasions in the second half and the O didn't take advantage. The fumble on the one that kept us from going up 21-7 was huge.
I don't mind the zone, but blitz alittle more please. With pressure, the qb was horrendous. why not rush 5 or do man with deep safties every once in a while?
The "Recruited By" on this page is all I need to see from Tony Gibson.
How many FAKES out of five does his 4.48 40 yard dash time receive?
He's good at bringing in talent, but has yet to prove that he's good at developing it.
I for one would love to see him be a full time recruiting coordinator and leave the coaching to guys with proven track records of developing D1 talent.
Hell, you can even keep him as special teams coord if you want. Just send him off to Va Tech for an off season to learn how it's done.
Tony Gibson has been coaching with Rich Rod since 1996. He ain't going anywhere, no matter what small quibbles you have with him.
how much better we would be if he were a 5*
No, it is not time to evaluate the DB coaches. Next question please.
I believe Shafer was coaching the corners in '08, so Gibson's only been with them two seasons, and Braithwaite is in his first year. Given the massive turnover we've experienced there, I think it's too early to draw any conclusions.
after being on the job for about 6 months and whose starting personnel include a walk-on (Kovacs), converted rs-fr receiver (Gordon), and a freshman (Carvin)?
what about marvin robinson? i thought he was supposed to be a stud, and i haven't seen him on the field much. And I am sick of seeing james rogers play corner, he is TERRIBLE. We won't win anymore big ten games if we don't play bette in coverage.
Marvin Robinson is a freshman. Your argument is invalid.
Who's your Bette? Bette Boop, Bette Davis, Bette Midler, if we play any of them dames in coverage, I will be pissed, stick with Rogers.
what about marvin robinson? i thought he was supposed to be a stud, and i haven't seen him on the field much.
That may have something to do with him being injured for most of the season to date.
Fuck that James Rogers guy, stepping into play CB even though he was a high school QB who played receiver at Michigan until last year.
His play at DB has been UNACCEPTABLE.
Also, Avery, Talbott and Christian have been mediocre at best, making them not ACCEPTABLE and staring at the precipice of UNACCEPTABLE.
To conclude, we should switch Gardner to CB if he's not going to be the backup QB. Also, Odoms should play two ways.
And we should throw it deep more often. And recruit more 5-star DBs - THIS IS MICHIGAN.
/Sorry, had to get it all out.
Get out the Bette signal commissioner.
the way Brian would in a game preview:
Secondary ability level: 2 (Baseline 5, -1 for two freshman starters, -1 for position switch starter at deep safety (C Gordon), -1 for starter who wasn't good enough to see the field on last year's defense (J. Rogers), -1 for starter who got seriously outrun by Indiana last year (Floyd), +1 for But Floyd's been ok this year, -1 for starting a sophomore walk-on, +1 for KOVACS GRIT!, +1 for We actually have interceptions this year, -1 for That happens when teams pass 60 times on you.)
Think back to Michigan's teams of the Lloyd Carr era. How many of these guys would start on any of those teams? Now remember that our safeties were bad on those teams, and that we had trouble covering good receivers back then as well (remember Plaxico Burress?).
Your current mgopoint total is 1096 and it is messing with my eyes. Looks like 10%. Aside from that, I don't have anything useful to add to your post. But, I do appriciate the Brian-like points analysis.
What Michigan is going through in terms of total defensive performance was expected and predicted by everybody and anybody who has two brains cells to rub together. Most of the issues are depth and experience related.
When you can't wait for true freshmen to get healthy again and join the starting lineup for your secondary, that's a tip. It serves as a nice reminder that the ship you call a "defense" is patched together with sandy mud, twine and masking tape. It's not pretty, but it probably won't sink immediately either.
As scary as the horror show is on defense for Michigan this fall, if we've learned anything it's this: Next year Michigan is going to field one of the youngest and most experienced defense (and offense) in the league.
Plus 2010 is not all bad. At least this year Michigan has a death grip on the "most dangerous Big Ten team" moniker. I'm not saying people are afraid. But man I don't think anyone is chalking up a free "W" for Michigan anymore.
in their favor. So far, the defense is WORSE this year than last. To your point, everyone did expect that the defense would be bad. But there was a legitimate reason to expect that the defense would be improved--slightly--this year vs last, despite the loss of Graham, Brown and Warren. In fact many reasonable people on the board expected/hoped for that. Having GERG take over LB coaching, the (hoped for) improvement from Campbell, potential emergence of someone new at LB (Fitzgerald, Demens etc), more experience/improvement from Roh and Martin, another year in GERG's system, and more experience for our young guys, all were sited as hopeful signs by many. But 5 games in we are worse. That is why the unacceptable crowd is out. And I understand that.
say what you want, but this is a 3-3-5 and I can't remember Gerg ever running it as a D coordinator. Certainly not in the pros where he was the D coordinator for two SB champions nor at Texas, Cuse, or anywhere else I recall.
This is the D most of RR's coaches are familiar and Gerg is adapting. I do wish he would call Dick Lebeau and get some of his zone blitzes to install here. At the same time when the QB is in the shotgun and getting the ball out quick is there really any sense in sending more guys who aren't going to get there unless you jump into a bump and run. Hopefully, he can mix some of these things in our we may just have to outscore everyone.
This D kept us in the ND game until our O could pull out the win. Take out Cam's three big mistakes and ND has two less TDs and 200 less yards of O. We're 5-0 enjoy it and lets see how the D plays next week. I would think some major recruits would see the opportunity for immediate playing time and a dynamic offense that will only be better next year. Win some more and they will come.
Yep. There's some revisionist history going on from those saying "everyone knew we'd be worse this year."
In the off-season, I recall a lot of people making 9-3 or 8-4 predictions (without knowing that Denard would suddenly morph into the greatest player in college football). When some on the board suggested that such a record might be tough because the defense would likely be worse given the loss of our top 3 players, these people would erupt with rage, citing the very reasons you list to state that it would be idiotic to think that the 2010 defense would be worse than 2009.
That was also before Woolfolk went down. He would've made a big difference on Saturday - Rogers' weakest game by far.
Don't count on getting any information to backup the claims of the OP. There are multiple posts on the espn michigan forums spouting this same garbage with absolutely no evidence to support the claim. In fact if anything the evidence would suggest that the D Coaches have done a good job considering the injuries/attrition they have experienced.
did he even play? D-line can always help the backfield...throwing 64 times will make them tired...AND THEY WERE STILL GETTIN AFTER IT late in the game. The kids are playing tough.
i think he should play more, but so far he hasn't played much. Personally, i hate the three man rush, and when we rush four we usually have better success. I hate the coverage scheme, but we couldn't really rush more than three because all Indiana did was pass. I hope we blitz more next week against mich. st. and get to the quarterback early and often. We should try to play to the strenghts we have on D.
you want a bigger penis?
You seriously think this team is going 13-0? Please, tell me why you think this?
+1 to you.
Did you just take a shot at, THE_KNOWLEDGE? Looks like somebody is about to be left in a cloud of dust.
We also don't need fans telling other fans not to be fans. Just because you use "fucking" a lot, doesn't make your point any more valid. It just makes you a child who gets angry about someone being dumb on the internet. Take it easy, enjoy the fact that we are 5-0.
The fact that this has a plus 8, and someone making the indisputably more rational point that we are not likely to go 13-0, tells me that we've gotten to the point in the season where a rationale discussion of this team's strenghts and flaws is impossible. Being willing to say that your team is less than perfect doesn't make one a "half ass fan."
he said "possibility"
At least thats what I read, yes?
there is no information contained in your post that would indicate there is problem with coaching. Bring some insight if you have any
Cam Gordon, Thomas Gordon, Cullen Christian, Carvin Johnson, T. Talbott, and Ray Vinopal
have in some cases played less than two college football games. Additionally, due to attrition (Wolfolk injury not coaching related, Cissoko inappropriate behavior, Warren gone to the NFL) that has absolutely nothing to do with coaching these players would be red shirted or on the three or four deep rotation. learning to play the game in practice not on the national stage.
One last question do you really think that message board guy would have better insight on deploying these freshmen and RS freshmen than say a paid Division 1 coach with X years of experience?
You know it's really terrible when you have to remind fellow Michigan fans to look at the score board more than opposing teams fans.
that made me want to break something during yesterdays game regarding the DB's that need to be fixed before next weeks game (and for the rest of the year):
1) The CB's need to understand were the first down markers are on 3rd/4th and long and stop giving up 10 yards of cushion to the receiver AFTER they have already passed the first down marker. That mistake is just about understanding the situation and where you are on the field and can / should be fixed by the coaches.
2) JT Floyd should have absolutely lit up the guy who came acoss the field and caught that 1st down pass right in front of him, late in the game. I can deal with a lack of ability by a player, but the lack of heart / desire / balls to lay out a guy who is right in front of you, is unacceptable...That needs to be coached up and fixed, NO EXCUSES. Man that play still pisses me off. OK, I have to go punch something now....lol..
Before you punch something, stop and think about how many snaps JT had to play yesterday before you accuse him of lacking heart.
BTW, a good lawyer should know how to properly use an apostrophe.
I think it's fair to wonder about the attrition.
I don't think it's fair yet to judge on their ability to coach. How quickly do we forget that a senior quarterback (Chad Henne) and experienced receivers tore apart a young Florida secondary less than three years ago. That Florida secondary featured a few guys you may have heard of, Joe Haden, and Major Wright among them.
JT Floyd and James Rogers haven't been All Big Ten players, but they've played a lot better than anyone thought before the season started.
And Cam has made a lot of rookie mistakes, but seemed to play pretty well yesterday. With the INT, leveling the TE who made a great catch, and some overall solid tackling, his UFR might even approach a 0, which would be fantastic compared to the previous weeks.
You can't coach experience. And you can't coach motivation (Turner), common sense (Cissoko, Warren), or high school grade problems (Witty, Dorsey)..
those kids out there are bustin their ass for our fandom....I say thanks Men.
+1 go chargers!
Cam did tackle really well yesterday.
how about some love for the run defense !!!! I like how people comment on 18 yr old kids that can't compete at the BIG10 level....60 days into their career. This year we outscore them...then next year we shut them down...the defense will get better with age and experience.
I find it interesting how everyone went into this game expecting a good passing team to be able to pass the ball on our defense, but when that actually happens we are looking for answers. We knew it going in but the D did enough for us to win the game, how we can expect much more this season is beyond me.
I wish I could smite any and all who use apostrophe's in plural's
While you're at it, smite any and all who don't punctuate their sentences.
I see this as a typical game this year folks...put a little more air in your helmet...tie those laces a bit tighter...put a little tape on it and.........STRAP IT UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lets not tie the shoelaces :P
Just my opinion, but with the exception of Mouton, the LB play has been much worse than the secondary. If you noticed, yesterday we had a few coverage sacks...
The coaches are fine, it's youth & depth that's the problem. People are so quick to blame the coaches (including me). The last thing they need is a different coach or scheme, they need to stay the course and continue to grow. We all knew our D would be this bad, let's hope we can continue to roll offensively.
For those of you who are saying fans are too quick to blame the coaches...
...yeah, you might be right.
But as far as I'm concerned, Tony Gibson has yet to churn out a good player, and he's been here for three years. Adam Brathwaite (the safeties coach) is only five games into his coaching career, so I'd say the jury's still out on him, especially because he's working with some walk-ons and position changers.
With only three years and with the attrition on the team, I don't see how Gibson has had a chance to have a good player yet. When kids that have been recruited under him are upperclassmen, then we can talk.
Well, according to Rivals, Gibson was the safeties coach in 2008 and the safeties were bad.
Then he was the DBs coach in 2009, and Michigan allowed a billion passing yards. Meanwhile, Floyd, Williams, Cissoko, and Kovacs were all exposed in the passing game. Woolfolk was pretty good, and Warren was okay...but not good enough to get drafted.
As the cornerbacks coach in 2010, so far Floyd and Rogers have been mediocre. Those two aren't allowing many big plays, but they're not making many big plays, either.
I realize he doesn't have much to work with...but still, the results are the results.
Don't get me wrong, I'll never try to make a case stating our defense has been good. I just don't think it's fair to judge Gibson just yet. It's the same logic that I use when I don't judge underclassmen on defense. Gibson has been coaching with Rich Rod for over a decade now, I have to assume he knows what he is doing or else he wouldn't have been asked to keep moving jobs with Rich Rod.
If the defense doesn't step it up in one to two years, then I think people can rightfully get worked up.
In your opinion, who should Gibson have been able to churn out as a good player? I know little to nothing about player development and what is possible, so I'm just wondering who you think had the potential to be good and hasn't gotten there.
Obviously this is ignoring the attrition and recruiting, but you gotta break a problem down into digestable chunks.
There are several players who had potential. Of course it's tough to tell how much blame to place at Gibson's feet, but Justin Turner and Boubacar Cissoko both could have been good.
To add to Magnus' thoughts, WVU fans pop up on Michigan boards all the time saying how Gibson really hasn't ever been a really good coach. So it's not just a few years of Michigan fans aggression.
Agree on Turner, but not Cissoko. He was given opportunity and coaching. I don't hold Gibson in very high regard, but I don't think Cissoko's failure can be linked to Gibson.
Cissoko's failure to be a good person probably doesn't rest on Gibson's shoulders.
Cissoko's failure to be a good cornerback might.
Are you suggesting that, even though you thought Cissoko was going to be bad, and when he actually played he was bad, with off the field issues that were bad, he might have actually been good if the defensive backs coach wasn't bad? This thought intrigues me
I mean, I was never a big fan of Cissoko, even coming out of high school.
But a lot of people thought he had potential. He had some tools. Obviously some combination of coaching and Cissoko's choices prevented him from reaching his ceiling.
I'm not saying it's all Gibson's fault, but that's an example of one of his players that didn't pan out.
how much cissoko can be used as an example. He was only on the team for a year before being suspended/kicked off. We really didn't get to see him during the second season to see how much development went on.
Floyd would be a better judge of this and from what I have seen this year teams tend to go away from Floyd. They throw toward Rogers more. Floyd is probably the best DB on the team right now. I am interested to see how much more he develops for next year.
Floyd is probably the best DB on the team right now
I agree...and yet that's not saying much.
If Cam Gordon can continue to grow, you may change your mind in a couple of weeks. He's always around the ball and is a sure tackler. Also, nothing got behind him on over 60 tries yesterday.
Adam Jones was a pretty good DB at WVU. Was Gibson the DB coach there? Also didn't Mundy a former Michigan player do pretty well at WVU under Gibson?
Yeah, he's been with RR for over a decade.
Woolfolk has looked good. People were certainly very upset when he got hurt for him to be considered not a good player. Donovan Warren was also considered pretty good in college, if not liked by the pros.
Look... let these kids grow up, you will be proud of them one day.
Relax, look at this way... the other teams punter will never hurt us... there,hang your hat on that if you must.
Floyd and Kovacs are the only players in the secondary that had any starting experience in the secondary before this season. That leaves three new starters (Rogers, Gordon and Johnson/Gordon). Of those three new starters, two are freshmen (Carvin being a true freshman) and Rogers is a converted wide receiver that was forced into a starter's role after Troy was injured in fall practice. Each starter is a sophomore or younger with the exception of Rogers. You have to give those guys time to develop and learn under the defensive schemes that are in place. It would be tough for any coach to piece together a workable secondary from the pieces on this roster. If the level of play in the secondary hasn't improved in two or three years, then it might be time to blame the coaches.
I don't think it takes five or six years to evaluate Gibson. It only took two years for us all to decide that Hopson, our linebackers coach, should get out of town.
It might take 6 years to evaluate a President's impact; there are a lot of laws and economic decisions to trickle down and take effect.
But a defensive backs coach? I don't think so...
18 months is plenty.
This has been covered, but here is another way to show it. Including the spur and bandit positions, our depth chart in the secondary consists of:
6 true freshmen
2 redshirt freshmen, 1 of whom was a receiver last year
1 senior who was a receiver last year
2 redshirt sophomores who played DB last year! One is a walk-on, the other was badly overmatched in the little time he played last year.
I don't think there's a coach in the country who would be expected to get results out of that, especially early in the season.
(Simmons is on the depth chart, but I excluded him because I don't think he's played outside garbage time.)
is why I can't place the blame on any of the coaches yet. I look at it that Michigan is 5-0. Most reasonable people predicted Michigan to finish somewhere between 6-6 and 8-4. With the defense this young and inexpereience the team is in great position to hit the high end of those guesses if not better. If anything I would give the coaching staff including Gibson credit for holding the D together.
Why hasn't anyone mentioned '06 and '07? Those classes are relevant, too.
Boo Boo was Lloyd's recruit and Floyd was RichRod's. I'm not sure about Brandon Smith.
Cissoko was recruited by Carr and committed while he was still here.
Floyd was originally recruited by Carr and seriously considering Michigan, but didn't commit until near NSD.
I don't think you can really say "Cissoko was Carr's and Floyd was Rodriguez's."
As a coach myself I face parents who make blanket statements about what they see in a game. They are concerned about why this kid is playing and that one isn't etc. I always ask them- what have you observed in practice? The answer is of course nothing- they are not at practice. My point is let the coaches coach------also I know at the high school level that we are always better when we are dominated by juniors and seniors in our starting line-up. Michigan's secondary certainly does not fit that scenario. Give them time
I still blame Hopson and I'll continue to blame him for all things bad on defense until the defense doesn't suck anymore.
I just don't understand the 10 yard cushion on wideouts EVERY PLAY. I know they are playing a zone but are they really so slow that they can't play on the line of scrimmage EVER? It drives me nuts that they just toss the ball to the outside and it's an automatic 5 yards every time.