August 14th, 2012 at 7:50 AM ^
August 14th, 2012 at 8:00 AM ^
AFAIK, none of the other TTB interviews have really covered the Freep report. But it's early, so my brain might not be working properly.
August 14th, 2012 at 8:02 AM ^
August 14th, 2012 at 8:08 AM ^
His comments were very interesting -- both in what he said and what he implied. Covered some topics that I hadn't seen anyone come out directly on like Bacon, Freep, etc.
I was at that WMU game last year -- we honestly were not looking very good but his first defensive touchdown changed the momentum completely. He is always a star to me!
August 14th, 2012 at 9:18 AM ^
Having read "Three and Out", I find it interesting but unsurprising that the football program doesn't want to be associated with a great journalist, lecturer, and writer like John Bacon. The truth hurts sometimes and Bacon wasn't afraid to dish it. Sorry to hear that Lloyd Carr has such thick skin. Hope this isn't flagged as being flamebait because I'd like to think it isn't. We should all be critical of the things we care about!
August 14th, 2012 at 10:35 AM ^
I don't understand how this interview automatically leads to people thinking that "Lloyd Carr banned John U. Bacon from the building." There are other people who might be in charge, such as Brady Hoke and David Brandon...you know, people who actually have more power than the retired football coach. I'm not saying Herron is wrong here, but I'm guessing Herron wasn't present if/when Carr said "Don't allow that Bacon guy back in the building."
August 14th, 2012 at 10:49 AM ^
I'm also somewhat saddened with how quickly people will portray Carr as the thin skinned, power mad retired headcoach. He spent 27 years at Michigan and all his actions show him to be the dedicated to Michigan.
Also even Bo would have banned John U Bacon. It's hard to run something like Fort Schembechler when you have someone like Bacon is around. The Fort is back, so Bacon is gone.
August 14th, 2012 at 12:05 PM ^
Also even Bo would have banned John U Bacon. It's hard to run something like Fort Schembechler when you have someone like Bacon is around. The Fort is back, so Bacon is gone.
After Bo entrusted his archives to Bacon, and collaborated on the best book summarizing his career at Michigan? Sorry. I expect that a lot of things would have been a lot different in the Rodriguez era, had Bo been alive. I expect that John U. Bacon could do a brilliant speech on that topic for about ninety minutes without a page of notes. And I also expect that had Bo been alive to witness the treachery of Michael Rosenberg and Mark Snyder, long before Three and Out was published, Bo Schembechler would have publicly shredded the Detroit Free Press to mulched newsprint.
August 14th, 2012 at 11:47 AM ^
I suspect that Bacon is banned upon orders from Brandon. That Brandon is protecting Mary Sue Coleman, Bill Martin and Lloyd Carr. I didn't infer anything else. And of course this is not at all suprising news, to anyone who knows John and has talked with him. And at the same time, there are whole legions of people in Ann Arbor who know John, and his work, and respect him greatly for that work. It's crazy, really, that Carr and Mary Sue Coleman, who won't speak about the book or the subject matter directly, would seek any protection from its implications.
August 14th, 2012 at 12:01 PM ^
My wife is family friends with Bacon (like many Ann Arborites because I've yet to meet someone here that doesn't have some sort of relationship with him) and just a little bit ago was getting a recommendation from him for her resume (with a goal of getting a job somewhere with the university, preferrably the athletic department). It was a bit surprising to us when one of our friends, who currently does work for one of the non-revenue sports at U of M, let us know that having an endorsement from Bacon is essentially a kiss of death for her chances.
It should be expected that the athletic department has taken this stance on him, but still, for someone who is such an expert in all things Michigan athletics and is practically a A2 local celebrity, it's still surprising how quickly he was excommunicated.
August 14th, 2012 at 1:43 PM ^
"Black and Blue" down here in Raliegh, Buddy Moorehouse spoke after the screening, and he told us that he basically got no help from Brandon (because Brandon wanted him to pay big money for the use of photos and footage or go away), and he asked for and didn't get an endorsement from MSC.
His point of view was the University is embarassed by the story, which the atheletic department should be. However, the part of the story about all the protests, and letters and petitiions from students and faculty, and the actions of Gerald Ford and Willis Ward - in 1934 - should be a point of pride.
As an alumni of the University of Michigan, and the others present at the screening, this mix of pride and embarassment was felt and expressed. However, we also felt this was something a university like Michigan should embrace (and endorse), versus effectively shun.
In my view the same goes for Three and Out. It is a point of view, and should be acknowledged as such. To not accept multiple viewpoints creates an enviroment where (way in the extreme) events like Penn State are able to unfold.
And lets face it, the entire Rich Rod saga was a story of failed succession planning for one of (if not the) marquis role at this university. And that falls squarely on Bill Martin and MSC. (I'll give Lloyd a pass, since he effectively gave Bill a year head start.) So Bacon may have embarassed them by writing a book about it, but honestly, Captian Obvious ...
While we're at it, it isn't clear in Herron's interview comments, but I do believe there was a group of players shocked by the supposed sea change of what was voluntarily expected of them from a conditioning standpoint, and they are asked to do a lot volutarily to be in condition to be able to play. The only thing that confuses me about the "sea change", is you had guys like Chad Henne coming out and saying they watched hours of film, etc., and that is what they had to do voluntarily to be competitive. And if you listen to Hoke, it is not like working hard wasn't a tradition since Bo came in.
Carson Butler said something to the effect in an interview after his senior year. When he said it, I took Carson's statement to be a statement about college football in general: i.e., this is what you have to [voluntarily] do to be competitive. As stated above: Chad Henne and several others said as much after the Freep hack job.
How much better the Freep story would have been if they had gone with the general story that college footbal has gone too far with mandatory and voluntary practice and conditioning expectation, with Michgian as an example - than the lurid hit piece they went with. The sad thing is, by going with the sensational headline grabber, the real issue is not addressed. The NCAA ought to have maximum hours associated with football period (voluntary or not) if they really were worried about the student side of the equation. Of course the Freep was not trying to help the athletes, they were trying to get Rich Rod fired.
August 14th, 2012 at 8:26 AM ^
Couple of things that stand out (and I'm not going to make this a Hoke v. RR thing because it's dumb); I heard a guy with supposed "inside knowledge" talking in a bar one evening right after RR was hired. He commented that (paraphrasing) "he plays guys against one another...that's his game...won't work at Michigan". All I knew of RR when he was hired was that he won a lot of ball games at a place where wins were far from automatic, but I never forgot the comment. As time went by I can't deny it had a ring of truth to it. Herron also refers to something similar. All that said, wins would have fixed everythig.
Second thought, the pressure to get those wins, to implement new systems and transform kids to lighter, faster versions of themselves must have been overwhelming. No surprise at Herron's comments regarding Freep/20 hrs etc.
August 14th, 2012 at 8:38 AM ^
...RichRod a) failed at Michigan because people were mean to him, and b) was an innocent victim of the Stretchgate allegations continue to be revealed as fiction.
August 14th, 2012 at 8:53 AM ^
August 14th, 2012 at 9:54 AM ^
Bacon can't set foot in the building, the Stretchgate guys kept their press passes and generally were left alone by the Athletic Department. Now Herron says he felt the players who went to the NCAA were standing up for the current guys on the team. I guess the next thing we find is that the Freep report was written with the blessing of elements of the Athletic Department (perhaps after internally compliance refused to anything because they were a useless mess).
We could end up owing Sharp an apology if it turns he blew the whistle in an effort to protect the health of the players at the request of various veterans and former coaches. I wonder what crow tastes like.
August 14th, 2012 at 10:40 AM ^
August 14th, 2012 at 10:48 AM ^
He popped up on TTB to ask a few of the questions, so I sure hope so...
August 14th, 2012 at 10:49 AM ^
will get to it shortly...he senses something amiss in his universe and is now searching for the source of the offending vibrations.
August 14th, 2012 at 12:11 PM ^
And I have no plans to eat any crow.
Bacon can't set foot in the building, the Stretchgate guys kept their press passes and generally were left alone by the Athletic Department.
Not exactly. Of course, Michigan cannot possibly blackball reporters from a particular major metropolitan newspaper. But when was the last time Michael Rosenberg did a Michigan football story, and when was the last time Mark Snyder got any sort of a Michigan exclusive?
Now Herron says he felt the players who went to the NCAA were standing up for the current guys on the team. I guess the next thing we find is that the Freep report was written with the blessing of elements of the Athletic Department (perhaps after internally compliance refused to anything because they were a useless mess).
Not sure I even follow what your are saying here, but nothing in the Free Press story, or the NCAA report, or Three and Out, or the subsequent history would lead to a conclusion that "elements of the Athletic Department" blessed the story. Did Carr leak info? I don't know. Did Percy Bates? Jim Stapleton? I don't know. I guess it depends on how you define "elements of the Athletic Department. But of course, we haven't overlooked that party of the story. It's just that no one (okay; Toney Clemons) will cnfess to having fed Rosenberg the CARA memo, and the story.
We could end up owing Sharp an apology if it turns he blew the whistle in an effort to protect the health of the players at the request of various veterans and former coaches. I wonder what crow tastes like.
Except that it was never Sharp's story to begin with. He had nothing to do with the story as far as I am aware. Nothing. It was Rosenberg and Snyder, and later Jim Schaefer (real investigative reporter, instead of cub reporter/columnists). Sharp called the entire affair, "The most toxic thing I have ever seen in my years working at the Free Press."
August 14th, 2012 at 1:50 PM ^
if the Freep really wanted to help protect the players, they would have reported the broader story on how the expectations on football players - both voluntary and mandatory - to be competitve have gone too far (even within the rules of the NCAA), and given the Michigan experience as an example.
The only reason to go the sensational route, was to bring down an investigation on Rodriguez to get him fired.
August 14th, 2012 at 2:28 PM ^
Well said.
And let's add; the University (and to a lesser, but still significant extent, the NCAA itself) concluded that the technical violations found in Michigan's case in no way posed a harm to student-athletes. That is an explicit part of the University's Response. If Herron is saying otherwise, Dave Brandon will have a real issue with that. Or at least he should have an issue with it.
August 14th, 2012 at 3:29 PM ^
I love you.
Never change, Section 1. Never change.
August 14th, 2012 at 11:32 AM ^
RR was dealt a bad hand and played it poorly.
August 14th, 2012 at 11:39 AM ^
...accurate assessment.
August 14th, 2012 at 1:44 PM ^
I think there are people who would be dealt a 3-9 offsuit (self/us zing) and win. There are people who can lose with pocket Aces. There are luck, skill, the other players at the table, shad dealers and everything else to worry about. Getting a bad hand and playing a hand badly aren't mutually exclusive, but both are to blame.
August 14th, 2012 at 9:03 AM ^
Fascinating perspective that I haven't heard before; that the players welcomed the former players speaking out on their behalf.
Also interesting that Lloyd C seems to have banned John U from Schembechler.
Great interview.
August 14th, 2012 at 11:04 AM ^
August 14th, 2012 at 1:14 PM ^
I'm pretty sure he independently hired Jake Long to sit outside the main entrance during the offseason to keep out any of the "unwanteds".
August 14th, 2012 at 9:43 AM ^
That whole last part where he says that the changes the NCAA forced were better for player health makes it sound kind of like they were breaking the 20 hour rule with more than just a little stretching.
August 14th, 2012 at 1:58 PM ^
mandatory or voluntary, and what is countable or not.
And I am not a fool. Everyone knows that if you don't do voluntary, you are less likely to play, and that countable or not, it all feels the same to the player.
This is why the NCAA needs to address the broader issue, not just the narrow case. Heck the easier way to do it, may be to have a required number of academic and down time hours each week rather than attempting to monitor and limit volutary conditioning and self lead practice.
August 14th, 2012 at 9:46 AM ^
on the Freep debacle? "They were looking out for us." I was certainly a Rod supporter, but were he and Barwis overdoing it with these guys? I think many of us have conceded that the Effect was overhyped.
August 14th, 2012 at 9:55 AM ^
Good interview. I'm know the AD was pissed off at J.U.B. but i'm suprised he is getting the full exile treatment. I thought 3 and Out was a good read, the potential for embellishment was there considering it came from RRs POV but I think it spelled out what we all thought was happening at the time and the fact that Martin, Carr and the AD have never replied to it only furthers that belief on.
As far as the stretch gate is concerned, Herron's comments imply that it was more than just stretching but the fact of the matter is as a big time D1 program you have to break "those" rules, its just like players going to watch film "on their own". You feel pressure from coaches and other teammates to do those types of things so its not really your choice at all but again..its a 24/7/365 game and that is what it takes to win.
August 14th, 2012 at 10:20 AM ^
It's always great to hear a perspective of former players who went through all those changes and can talk about them more openly now that they are no longer on the team.
August 14th, 2012 at 12:40 PM ^
I find it very interesting that a former player lays the person responsible for the excommunication of Bacon at Carr's feet. Of all the individuals identified in "3 and Out" he came off as badly as anyone outside of Martin. And he is one of the few left standing, so to speak, retired or not.
I agree with the earleir comment that while DB ordered the kill, he did so at the behest of others. And what exactly are they afraid of anyways? Not like he's writing another book - are they worried they may have to actually took him in the eye?
August 14th, 2012 at 1:49 PM ^
Bacon is Freddo, Brandon is Micheal. "Never..EVER take sides against the family".
Jon U knew exactly what he was in store for when he wrote that book. One of you AA locals that knows him should ask that very question. I think he'd honestly admit that he expected to be banned. Among the things that would have been different in the catagory "what if Bo was alive" is that Bacon doesnt release that book in its final form. His perspective would have been different and his loyalty for RR would not have been nearly as strong as it turned out to be from the pages of 3&O. Bacon was searching for another Bo when he was writing that book and his close personal relationship with RR had him believing or at least hoping that this guy was it. Others, many others, had already decided for themselves that he was not.
I bet when I tell the story of my sister & brother in law's messy divorce it sounds alot different than when his brothers tell it. The reality of it is probably that they were like oil and water from the get go and all the ugliness that ensued was just the downstream results of that. However that doesnt change that fact that the former brother in law is not invited to my Mom's wonderful thanksgiving dinner anymore.
August 14th, 2012 at 3:59 PM ^
He never would have allowed the book in the first place. They call it "Fort Schembechler" for a reason. Sure, he's willing to give his story to anyone after the fact (It's a good book, but I like Bacon's book better the first time I read it, when it was written by Mitch Albom), but let people talk about the inner workings on their own, rather than what he wanted to say? Would never happen. And if anyone tried to throw his people or program under the bus, he'd have been the first one changing the locks to the building.
August 14th, 2012 at 6:38 PM ^
Who do you think you are you, Drew Sharp?
When Forcier publically acknowledged that Denard Robinson took most of the practice reps with the first unit, he basically threw his fellow freshman under the bus when Robinson played little at Wisconsin.
Drew Sharp in the Free Press, November 17, 2009.
Iverson didn't call out president Joe Dumars, but he definitely threw Curry under the bus... Drew Sharp in the Free Press, October 4, 2009.
But he needs a shrewder, less reactionary approach with the Tigers. A good first step was not giving the jackals what they want -- his general manager and manager under the bus. Drew Sharp in the Free Press, August 13, 2010
Donaghy is a snake. He's pitching a book and that requires throwing people under the bus for the sake of commerce. Drew Sharp in the Free Press, December 23, 2009
Clausen got into a bar fight at Notre Dame because somebody criticized his play. He also threw a teammate under the bus for his mistakes while reviewing some game film... Drew Sharp in the Free Press, April 25, 2010
The biggest mistake was perpetuating a climate so volatile that teammates didn’t mind openly throwing him under the bus. That’s what Troy Woolfolk did when he told the Michigan Daily earlier this month that Forcier didn’t participate in the summer voluntary workouts as regularly and passionately as Robinson. Drew Sharp in the Free Press, August 22, 2010
Fully two years before Three and Out was published, the Free Press hit newsstands with Stretchgate. There was no Three and Out when that happened. Bo would have had a long time, to change locks at Schembechler Hall. And settle scores with whoever handed Rosenberg a copy of the wildly-misconstrued CARA memo of July, 2009.
Yeah, I would have loved it, at that time. To see Bo Schembechler unleash hell on any enemies of the Michigan football program. It would have been great. It was needed. I couldn't believe the silence from Bo's spiritual heirs in the program. Failing, in his great legacy.
August 14th, 2012 at 11:33 PM ^
August 15th, 2012 at 6:31 AM ^
I agree that Bacon knew what he was in for. He essentially said as much in the book. He stated that he wasn't sure what was going to happen once he revealed some of the things he saw.
August 14th, 2012 at 2:11 PM ^
This was a pretty interesting interviews, and thanks to Magnus for sharing.
When it comes to some of the items in "Three And Out", I actually find myself drawn a little more to interviews and insights from people like Brandon Herron who were there and on the field and experienced it in that form. I think that's probably where some of the more profound cultural differences between coaching regimes tend to be more transparent. The one comment Herron made that struck me as intriguing was about the importance in how you approach players (particularly at a school like Michigan, I believe was his implication) and the wrong approach will divide the team. He tacked onto this a very interesting comparison, saying essentially that you can tell ("you can read them" - his words) Carr and Hoke want to help. It's statements like that which provide incredible insight despite their relative brevity, in my opinion.
August 14th, 2012 at 5:53 PM ^
"The more people that know your business, the more trouble you'll have."
That was RRs fatal mistake. He not only opened the the program, he showed warts and all to everyone. He also over-promoted himself and his staff (particularly the S and C staff) and acted like they walked on water. This rubbed many people the wrong way because RR gave the impression that he and his staff were bigger than Michigan. This was a fatal mistake.
August 14th, 2012 at 6:41 PM ^
What, exactly, was Coach Rodriguez's "fatal mistake"?
Three and Out was published in the year after he was gone. So forget about anything related to John U. Bacon in any "fatal mistakes" on the part of Rodriguez. And moreover; judging by the words of the director of athletics at the University of Arizona, Three and Out was instrumental in Rodriguez's getting hired there. I think that the book served as vindication, at least in part, for Rodriguez. It was not, and could not have been, "fatal" to his tenure at Michigan. The book wasn't published until he was gone. How could anyone think otherwise?
I do not recall anyone making any legitimate use of the freshly opened practices during Coach Rodriguez's time at Michigan. Many of the bloggers whom we know and love got a lot more info that way. We also know that Michael Rosenberg substantially misused information about practices, which he never attended. That all relates to Rosenberg's trashy inference that Rodriguez's style in practice included too much yelling, too much brutality (?!?) too much bad language, etc. Again, Bacon's book was valuable in that it put the lie to Rosenberg; exposing that he was never there.
What other substantive changes in media relations are you talking about? What did Rodriguez do, during his tenure, that allowed too much invasive access to the program? Or which brought unwanted exposure to the program? What is there, that could possibly be attributed to Rodriguez?
As for "over-promot[ing] himself and his staff..." Do you have any particulars on that? We now have a football staff that costs about four times what the Rodriguez staff got. That's not wrong, in my view; but it sure is ironic in terms of supporting the coaching staff.
Finally, please give me your very best three examples of Rodriguez and staff holding themselves out as being "bigger than Michigan." Please be specific.
August 14th, 2012 at 11:36 PM ^
August 15th, 2012 at 2:10 PM ^
Section 1...seriously I can go back and find many comments that came out of the RR camp, particularly in the beginning...which were very self-serving, arrogant and demeaning to those coaches who came before them at Michigan.
If you want me to go back and dig those up, I will...but if you were paying attention then you know what Im talking about.
no need to dig up the dead...but I can do it if you really want me to and we can have a healthy debate.....