My head says Tressel, but my heart says Petrino. I'd force him to choose Hoke anyway.
Interesting Debate on "Mike & Mike"
He actually has a Sugar Bowl title.
Petrino. He banged a girl he hired and lied about it to his wife & everyone else. I'd like to think that my influence over my son's personal character would trump that of a head football coach.
The Tressel thing is limited to football, but within that realm the HC would have more influence on my kids than I would.
I see your point. However, wouldn't you consider Tressel to be the superior coach with a higher ability to be successful from a team performance standpoint? Additionally, do you consider Petrino's track record of entertaining/bolting for a new job in the middle of the night to be of concern? Could you even be sure Petrino would be the coach 5 weeks later? In my opinion, at least Tressel was loyal and wasn't going to go anywhere.
The entire argument is based on a false premise. There would always be a better third option. Petrino seems to have no moral compass, making Tressel the lesser of two evils. However the idea that Petrino is more likely to bolt is a strong point in his favor.
Comes through in all you do. All infidelity is not the same...but not taking personal responsibility, i.e. covering up, shows huge lack of character.
I don't want my kid to play where the leader of the program has a lack of character.
The cover up is worse than the crime.
but I would be more concerned over what influence a coach/team dynamic has over my son's personal character. It would be peer pressure at it's highest form. I remember how I was when I was 18 and I know that I could have been swayed to the "dark side" on some things if given an opportunity.
I'm sure my kid will love free stuff. I'm sure I'll love the free stuff my kid gets. Answer: Tressel.
But is it worth it if it means vacating everything your son's team wins?
The vacating doesn't really mean anything though. The fans will still count the wins as will the media. You go to the Sugar Bowl's website. They have the score/stats/MVP and the whole write-up on the game. Then at the very bottom it says "Ohio (State)'s participation was later vacated". Same with wikipedia. Coming into The Game this year, all the announcers talked about how they beat us 7 straight and have won the last 6 BIG Titles(or a share of). Not saying that's right or wrong, but it is what it is. You can put an asterisk next to all their wins and awards to say they were vacated, but then I think you also have to put an asterisk next to "punishment". We still count the Fab Fives accomplishment's don't we? And people are fighting for the banners to be hung again.
But you have to deal with the scandal forever when wins are vacated. We can't bring up the Fab Five anymore without someone mentioning Ed Martin. And those banners are never going back up.
OSU will forever have to hear how Tressel was a cheater. His legacy is forever tarnished. If you played for Tressel, your own legacy, by extension, is tarnished.
What do you and your son get for every year those wins stay un-vacated?
What do you get for every year after they've been vacated?
Sure, if your kid was the key Clarett/Pryor figure in the investigation and downfall, a lot of goodwill (which could be helpful; Craig Krenzel still seems to be making money selling lawn tractors here in Columbus) might go away. But I think most of the players involved in vacated wins are still remembered as contributing to wins/great seasons, and if anything they're victims of the big names who screwed up and got the wins vacated/program investigated.
I thought he was some genius biochemist.
Tressel, no question. You're not morally impaired because you violate rules set out by the NCAA.
morally impaired, but certainly ethically impaired.
Tressel lied and cheated to gain an competitive advantage for ten years. His teams intentionally hurt other teams' best players. I think that counts as "morally imparied."
Also, why is everyone assuming Tressel never cheated on his wife? People who cheat in as many aspects of his profession as Tressel did usually don't have a lot of integrity in their personal lives, either.
It's like we're still falling for Tressel's "The Senator" image in his personal life, even though it was pretty-well trashed in his professional one.
We can't make judgments based on what we don't know. I can't say definitively that Tressel never cheated on his wife, but Petrino certainly seems to have done so.
You could sit here and suggest that every FBS coach has cheated on his wife, and none of us would be able to disagree with 100% certainty. It goes back to the theme of Craig James killed 5 hookers, etc.
Yeah, but that actually happened.
Robert Reynolds did (in 2003) - though it may not be fair to generalize that to all of Tressel's teams.
did violate a contract he signed, though. I don't know if signing your name promising to do something and not following through with it is exactly moral behavior, and certainly not a message I would pass on to my children.
I have to admit, though, that I've always been sympathetic to the fact that there was an ongoing federal investigation and that Tressel presumably didn't think he could trust the NCAA not to leak that information or muck things up in some way that might hurt his players in a real life way, so to speak. I can imagine myself thinking, "I'm going to let the big-boy police handle this, at least for now."
I don't mean to say that Tressel handled the situation well, but it's so hard for me to take the NCAA seriously that I have to cut him some slack given the circumstances.
And I'm not saying you would disagree, but I would definitely go to whatever lawyer handled legal matters for the AD. He would at least have had a case that he hadn't breached his contract and would have gotten expert advice on how to proceed.
In other words, he'd be taking responsibility and passing the buck all at once, which sounds exactly like something Tressel would want.
I don't think he wanted to pass the buck, though, maybe to a fault. He wrote in one of his books about not letting rules get in the way of doing the right thing. It's easy to be cynical about that, but I think he was talking about the NCAA, which I think we all have to agree is a dubious body when it comes to decision making.
It just seems to me like Tressel would love to tell the players he was "protecting" that their punishment was a result of a university lawyer, and of course he would never bench them/report them himself. That's a cynical view, I know.
I actually agree with most of this. The Tressel stuff got blown up a bit because 1) it was the off-season, 2) it was Ohio State and 3) we didn't know about things like Miami and Penn State yet. That being said, he still had a couple chances to come clean after the federal investigation ended and he didn't do it.
People seem to forget that Ohio State didn't really get in trouble for Tressel and the tattoo stuff. They got in trouble for the booster in Cleveland paying players for no show jobs and the like.
He covered up the Tatgate incidents and who knows if there was anything else, but Petrino has shown a consistent pattern of just being an ass everywhere he's gone. If he treats his employers like dirt, I can only imagine how he treats the 17-21 year olds whose futures completely depend on him.
My son will be 5'6" at the most...
And if I had wheels I'd be a wagon.
Okay, so what if Tressel was coaching Barca but Messi, Xavi, and Guardiola were coaching Real Madrid (for some insane reason)? Where do you sign him up?
eek. talk about my own personal hell. I think Xavi is going to become a phenominal coach in the future (and Pep is already one of the best of all time)... so I'd send him to Madrid.
Hahaha. I knew you'd like squirm at the thought of that scenario. Good stuff.
Long Snapper. We always need good Long Snappers.
Long snappers are a lot taller than 5'6". They're basically offensive linemen.
...better teach him to be a second baseman.
If he ever even mentioned playing at Ohio.
Tough call..both are snakes..i wuld tell my son to choose because they both disgust me equally..grab a coin, kid
I wouldn't want my son to play for eaither of those guys but I assume that the premise is you have to choose one. If so, that would depend on the position my son played.
Offense... send him to Petrino.
Defense... send him to Tressel.
Neither would be in the mix if there were other good options, but if the premise of the question requires choosing one you'd have to make it pragmatically based on the side of the ball your son plays on.
Tressel is a good guy who handled a situation poorly. He's done a lot of good things for a lot of people. This is a guy who could have cashed in in the football world in some way and who instead took an academic advisory position at Akron.
Tressel did indeed handle Tatgate poorly and showed significant hubris. However, at the end of the day, I would want my son to have a head coach that he model his life outside of football after. Tressel is known for some great work within the community and you are spot on that he could be making a ton more money in the NFL if he wanted but instead took a low profile position in Akron. Petrino, for the most part, has shown an inability to act tasteful in any position yet and I believe would not exactly be the mentor I would want my son to have during college.
All that said - I can't stand Ohio.
As much as it pains me, the answer is Tressel for sure. While Tressel screwed up bad, and put winning before honesty, he always seemed to have the best interest of the players in mind. (Although you can definitely argue that he put winning in front of the long term growth of his players as human beings--see Clarrett, Pryor, etc.). This is in contrast to Petrino who, if you look at his entire career, has always put himself and his best interest before the players and even the team.
If those are the choices...skip football, go pro in something other than athletics.
2 years with Tressel....get a new car and some sweet ink, then transfer to where Petrino coaches.
Find Petrino's young, hot girlfriend, take her out in my safe car and get some action...you know Bobby ain't hittin' that right.
Wait...that seemed funnier in my head.
I wouldn't say so.
in those headshots they do? I'd say she's pretty damn good looking.
I read an article about how many US leaders have had affairs, and it's incredible.
I guess the point was that cheating on your wife is just one character trait of many that make a person a good leader, trustworthy.
That said, I'd take Petrino. as I fully believe that Tressel was dirty from his time at YSU and therefore it's a systematic problem as opposed to covering up a motorcycle accident (which was a 1 time thing).
Hitler vs Stalin
Incurable cancer vs heart disease
Natty Light vs Bud Light
Snookie vs Roseann Barr
Pop Evil vs Neil Diamond
Crabs vs head lice
Jay Bilas vs Dick Vitale
Neil Diamond sings Sweet Caroline. Don't be hating on the dude...
Why do people like that song? Better yet, why do they like it to be played during football games? Nothing pumps me up like "Sweet Caroline"..... not.
...you could have gone with John Denver or Barry Manilow just as easily. They don't have anything affiliated with M football, and they suck just as hard.
That's exactly why I'm hating on him.
Bud light >>> Natty light.
Natty is more on par with Keystone (Gibbon's Favorite), Red Dog or Busch Light.
Bud light is a step up from that, more on par with Miller Lite and Blue light (Blue Light > Miller > Bud. Bud is last because they decided "let's adveritse with Pitbull!" I now actively choose against them because of it.)
The next tier up involves real beer.
Bud light isnt even yellow.
To answer this question I would have to have the "real" story behind what has gone on at both OSU and Arkansas, which I don't. For the purpose of answering your question though, I will just make a few assumptions and give you my response.
First, my main problems with Tressel are simple; He beat my favorite team a lot and he attempted to cover something up that could have potentially hurt the program he built. Other than that I really have no issue with the man himself. I am going to assume that in the end he was telling the truth and that he didn't have knowledge of a lot of what was going on. I will also assume that deep down he really believes he was acting in the players best interest.
With Petrino I have major issues. First of all I would like my sons to be around men that they can look up to and emulate. Neither of these two really fit that bill, but Petrino falls further short than Tressel IMHE. Because of my upbringing and my own persoanl moral compass I take marriage very seriously and can't think of many things a spouse could do that I would find more disgusting than cheating. If you like someone else, get a divorce and move on.
Another issue with Petrino is his lack of staying power. I would never know when he was going to bolt for the next big thing. I wouldn't want my kids to have to deal with that hanging over their heads every day.
He also actively tried to cover up what happened as a result of his misdeeds. I know Tressel did something similar, but his was more an act of ommision whereas Petrino's was an act of commision. Tressel simply kept quite while Petrino actively tried to coverup what had happened. To then try and blame it on the fact that he didn't want to hurt his wife and kids made it even worse. This after he cheated on his family....
Anyway, that is my response with assupmtions. Again, my assupmtions could be wrong and if they are I would be forced to revisit my decision, but that is how I see it. I think in the end, for all his faults, Jim Tressel is probably a decent guy who made some mistakes. I have a hard time believing that a guy who looks as straight laced as he does is as bad as we all want him to be. He would be my pick given the options here and it wouldn't even be close.
A poster above mentioned that where the child played should make a difference in where you sent your kid, but given this is the HC and not the OC or DC I am going to leave that out of the debate.
I hope my boy's do the same. I also looked up to my father more than anyone else and as I aged he became my best friend on top of being my father. The thing is, he isn't the only one who influenced my life.
I surrounded myself with some pretty poor influences in my early years and regardless of the fact that I looked up to my father and wanted to emulate him, it resulted in me making a lot of very poor decisions. Now, many of those poor decisions took place during my time in the CHL when I was livining away from home and my parents. That isn't to say I would have done things a whole lot differently had I been home, but that is just how it was.
I think it is nieve to believe that just because a person isn't another's role model that they can't influence their lives for good or bad...
Tressel. Easily. Heck, I'd rather have him play for Tressel than Saban or Meyer.
Here's the test: explain to a person who doesn't follow college football what Tressel got in trouble for. They'll think you're talking in parseltongue. Then try explaining Petrino and I'm sure they'll think he's a jerk.
I speak from experience. Try explaining most NCAA rules to a random neighbor lady.
pete carroll, dat dudes chill
Petrino is s serial liar and job-hopper. Tressel lied in a self serving way, and did cheat, but in all other apsects everyone that knows him is an admirerer of his. Not so for Petrino.
1, The direct accusation that he fixed raffles at camps to give star players the prizes.....that is simply flat out misleading to the 500 kids that paid big bucks to attend....$500 for a camp and you had no shot to win the random prizes and it went to the kids invited to camp who got in for free......
2, Tressel lied several times and covered up what was happening at both youngstown st and ohio.... if the coverup is worse then the crime...ummm tressel did it multiple times and this leads to....how many times in the past......
3, Tats, Cars, and other perks................I would be afriad my kid would be left hanging in his mess 2 or 3yrs in if I let him play for Tressel.
4 Would I have to worry he would allow felon drug trafficing thugs on the team around my kid? Would I have to worry about bringing in the lowest of the low just to win?
In answer, I would let my kid play for petrino long before I would Tressel. Petrino would have cause for concern but essentially adultry he is hurting himself and family and he has to face that as well and the public side is nobody else's business. Lets not get high and mighty on this board about that when this country has over a 50% divorce rate and the majority of children are now born out of wedlock. Relationships are screwed up anymore and it's become acceptable for people to do this unless they are a public figure and the public needs a reason to bag on them.
Adultry, if it's the moral high ground here, don't talk on this unless you have never had premarital sex, never commited adultry and live according to the standards you are holding Bobby Petrino to. Lying to his employer and on police reports.....the coverup....I get that and I get all of it regarding adultry.............huge huge issues......
pussy is a normal temptation to which we all have trouble resisting.
cheating for the team and claiming to be a man of god>>>disgusting
As I mentioned. If he didn't do anything else, leaving the Falcons in the 13th game for another job, in his first season, is a dishonorable move that hurt that team and he left a note in their lockers to say goodbye. Look around and see if Petrino gets nearly the praise that Tressel did from former players and employers--it's not even close.
Has to be Tressel. Petrino is just such a waste of life, besides being good at coaching football anyway
That's like asking me if I would like to be stabbed or shot to death. Coin. Flip it.
his only fault was being a normal man loving snatch. it's what we do. can't be helped and not sure it should. certainly shouldn't judge a man if he goes after pussy.
cheating to win at all costs, and lying and all the while claiming a direct line to god-now that is dispicible, loathsome and no way i would want my son anywhere near the son of a bitch.
I can say it isn't "what we do". It might be what some scum bags do, but don't lump all men into that lump of cheating dirtbags. Some men can actually control their impulses and look on pretty women like they look at a nice car. I don't need to ride every nice car I see, but can appreciate it from a distance. It is guys who think like you who give the majority of men a bad name. If you want to run around banging everything that walks just don't get married, or get divorced. Why do you have to cheat?
The integrity of the NCAA is more important to you than the integrity of marriage? That would be an interesting segment in a "have sports gone too far" book.
Tressel's main crimes involved NCAA rules, and his lack of morality is in his lack of ethics and poor decisions and blind-eye surrounding his program. At the end of the day though, I consider the possibility of willingly letting my kid take cash and free suff that could jeopardize his eligibility to be far less a potential problem than the character issues that would come with a guy who hires his mistress, lies about it, and all the other stuff that comes with the territory at SEC schools. Tressel has other character issues, such as those brought up in the SI article, but it is a lot more tame than Petrino's, and frankly a lot more tame than those with Ohio's current coach as well.
My opinion on this additionally assumes that playing for either coach would occur at a potential future destination. In other words, playing for Tressel means playing for him at a school that isn't Ohio and Petrino for a school that isn't Arkansas. Petrino I would be concerned with running his program like an SEC program no matter where he went, where with Tressel I would assume there would be less to worry about at Nowhere State University. I also feel that Tressel would be more likely to clean up his act for his next job than Petrino would.
The true answer is we have no idea because we have such limited info to make a decision on. How do we know if Tressel cheats on his wife? Is Petrino hiding NCAA violations? No idea. Both guys are perceived as the devil, but maybe they just made mistakes that got caught and blown up. Many players are loyal to them and they have had great success so they must be doing something right. My answer would be to meet both men ask them some questions and do my best to determine which you man you trusted more.
Best you can do.
i would tell him to go play for Tressel but secretley as a spy for Michigan sending us his playbook every year ; )
I would want my son to play for Tressel. Given Petrino's track record, it's more likely Jim Tressel will be there when he graduates.
Can I just take Satan and cut out the middle man?
Seriously, I'd probably still take Tressel. Petrino seems like a scummy guy who has screwed over people everywhere he's been (no pun intended). He quit on the Falcons during his first season, burned bridges at Louisville and Arkansas (at least in terms of being able to return as a conquering hero-type), and seems to run dirty programs. With Tressel, he's a jerk and maybe a sociopath, but he at least wins and his trangressions were more of omission than commission. Again, this is a lesser-of-two-evils argument, but the Sweatervest seems like a marginally better human being.
I'd pick Tressel. At least Tressel acts dignified. Petrino is a chump.
No way either of them are coaching when my currently fictional child comes of age.
Also, with my genetics, I have a better chance of creating a jockey then creating a football player.
Sweater Vest, no doubt about it.
At the very least, I'd know that he had my son's back.
Petrino quit on the Falcons and let everybody know by leaving a fucking note in the locker room.
Vest is a giant hypocrite, but Petrino is a coward, and a straight up piece of shit.
brady hoke good sir
Not applicable. Any kid with my genes would not have the motivation to excel at a sport.
Which one greater affects my kid 5yrs from now?
5yrs from now Petrino's issue is an after thought, correct? 5yrs from now Jim Tressel will just be able to be hired by an ncaa institution after a 5yr show cause limitation has expired.
So, your son is being recruited and Petrino shows up and leaves his recruiting pitch. The next day Tressel shows up and gives his recruiting pitch. Which one talks about being a good christian first? Because both commited grave sins according to the most basic christian teachings. Both lied and covered over a matter, both violated laws of christianity so tell me again which is worse?
Petrino's sins are obvious...adultry, lying, covering over a lie.
Tressel harder to answer but lying, covering over a lie and having never come clean about the entire lie constitutes him as still lying!
If my son is good enough to get into a big-time program coached by either Tressel or Petrino, then why wouldn't he be able to get into Michigan?! How have I raised my hypothetical son so poorly that he wouldn't choose Michigan over a Tressel or Petrino coached team?!
No but seriously, if its based soley on coaching talent and what's best for my son's future, then Tressel is hands down a better coach and more stable. But at the same time, it would be harder to root for a Tressel coached team. It would also depend on what big time program they were at I suppose.
This pains me to say it, but I'd rather have my hypothetical spawn play for Tressel and it's not even a debate. Only on a Michigan board would this even be a question. Don't get me wrong, approximately 65% of OSU fans are mouth-breathing cretins spawned from Satan's tainted sphincter and Tressel is a demonstrably sanctimonious hypocrite.
But look at Petrino's track record even before he came to Arkansas. I'd have to start delving through names like Craig James (#rememberthefive) or Sandusky before finding CFB people with a lower moral character than Petrino. For people who said they'd pick Petrino over Tressel, do you seriously think Petrino would bat an eyelash about doing any of the legion bad things that Tressel did, given the opportunity?
In my opinion, Tressel's issues were more of a team based issue and a lack of control. He basically let the players do what they wanted and turned a blind eye. From the very superficial knowledge I have of the Petrino situation, it seems like his problems are more of a personal thing than a team thing. While this sets a bad example for the players, his guys werent working themselves into legal and NCAA trouble. I think that Arkansas is a squeaky clean program compared to Ohio during the tressel years. Again, this is superficial knowledge and I could be way way off. Feel free to neg me into the ground.
Wait, are we assuming Tressel @ OSU or Tressel in some hypothetical future job?
If my kid wanted to go to OSU I'd probably have to go all Chris Spielman's Dad on him:
"You can go play football at whatever school you want. But if you go to OSU then don't come home. Ever."
Petrino. I think by 18 my son's moral compass with regard to relationships will be affected more by his peers and past experiences than what he sees from the adults around him. If I was 18 and this sort of stuff came out about my coach I would be more likely to lose respect for the coach than to want to be like him. By this point he would have spent 18 years seeing how I treat his mother with tenacious respect and fidelity, and that should have way more influence on him than anything his coach does. This is morality, and his morality should be set before he goes off to college.
Also Petrino's stuff was not done in full view of the players. That he hid it from his wards isn't something he should be praised for, but the fact that a coach would keep seedy infidelities and whatnot secret until the week he was fired for it makes me think my kid would be more immune from learning bad morals.
On the other hand, as much as I'd like him to learn it from me, he's not going to be as immersed while growing up in the ethical conduct of my business practices. I mean, he's just not going to see all of it because I can't be taking him to work or having him sit in on meetings with printers for HTTV or phone calls with prospective advertisers for the blog, or understand what all of the extra searching and emailing and linking etc. that I do to make sure I'm journalistically sound. These are ethics, and I think you need to understand the fundamentals of organizations to start being able to see and apply with ethics. So I could see this as something he is going to be very much influenced by his mentors in college; if he joins a fraternity the seniors in the fraternity and alumni who stay involved; if it's the school newspaper it's the senior editors; and if he joins the football team it's the coaches.
Tressel's interpersonal morals are sound but his organizational ethics are awful. He ran Ohio State like a secret society where doing right by the organization was more important than the organization doing right. This team-first approach is something a lot of people believe in--it is at the core of many of our biggest institutions--but I find it repugnant. This, by the way, is different than Bo-style loyalty, ie loyalty to an ideal of which the institution is meant to embody, because the absolutes of right and wrong are not altered based on what's better for the institution. Tressel-style loyalty is not loyalty to an ideal; it's loyalty to the organization, and thus whatever is best for the organization redefines right and wrong. I'd rather my kid play for Petrino and disrespect his coach than play for Tressel and have his barometer of right and wrong subsumbed by replacement of his objectivity for Tressel's concept of loyalty.
I'm not saying Petrino is any less digusting than Tressel. I'm saying that an 18-year-old is better equipped to ward off Petrino evil than Tressel evil.
this is exactly what i'm saying (if I were an English major instead of a physics major). Well said.
I agree with you in general about the issue of learning morality vs. ethics from a head football coach. The one point I'd make is that the Arkansas players may have known something was up when that cute blonde was hired by Petrino. Maybe not, but the news stories appear to imply that her hiring was pretty clearly out of the ordinary (obviously done because Petrino was "hanging out" with her. On the other hand, the OSU players HAD to know things were not kosher with the way Tressel was handling the affairs of the program. That would be much more detrimental to a young man's development than just thinking his coach is cheating on his wife with a girl he just hired.
Just out of pure hate for Tressel, I'd send him to Petrino. The fact of the matter is, they are both snakes, I wouldn't trust either of them with my son.
Just out of pure hate for Tressel, I'd send him to Petrino. The fact of the matter is, they are both snakes, I wouldn't trust either of them with my son.
Hanging or firing squad?
but it's not our choice. I would say GO BLUE!!!
If those were my choices, I'd just take a bowl ban ahead of time so the NCAA might take it easy on me.
Really late to the game here ...
I can see picking Petrino for at least one reason: There's a shorter distance between Public Petrino and Real Petrino than there is/was betweeen Public Tressel and Real Tressel.
Pretty much everyone knows Petrino is a jacka$$ and he doesn't (AFAICS) go too far out of his way to play defense on that point. Tressel, however, has inspired "WWTD?" thinking in O-H-I-O while playing loose behind-the-scenes.