Because I bet you wouldn't...
this week in unintentionally grim-sounding recruiting headlines
Because I bet you wouldn't...
3-13 in the Big Ten past two years speaks for itself too then doesn't it?
But it's still a great post. It's amazing that people who complain the most about dissention in the ranks are far more likely to be willing to throw Lloyd under the bus for, well, everything. It seems most of the rift in Michigan Football is being caused by paranoid guys who disliked Lloyd so much they want to throw him under the bus for stuff he hasn't been involved with for years (everyone knows this will be the 3rd year he's not coach, right?). Never getting the irony that the unfairness Rich is being subjected to now is the same thing fans like themselves were doing to Lloyd for years.
Only thing I'd add is the conditioning meme is getting old. We've had a team the last two years that has been worse late in games and late in the season. Are there other reasons for that? Sure. But it's not a sign of a team that has been magically morphed into the best conditioned team in the land. Is Barwis more up to date and probably better at his job at this point and time? Probably. But is he some miracle worker who whipped a bunch of fat slobs into shape? I doubt it. He's good, and respected, but to think otherwise is to discount there are other guys on other teams who know what they're doing too. Most of the hype for Barwis has come from, well, Rich and Barwis. Glad to have him. But obviously talent matters more.
It's starting to bum me out a bit that everyone's focusing on the LC/RR rift. I really just wanted to bring to light some positive information about RR and not negative about LC. I love LC and thoroughly revere him.
I just wanted to let people know that a guy who knows football, was coached by Bowden, said that RR will turn things around, he's a fantastic coach. Is he biased? Absolutely, but I don't care. I'll quote Scarface from Half baked, "I believe him bee, I don't know why yo, I just do."
It's a good post. So I'm done here. It's just that there's been an undercurrently lately reviving the blame Lloyd for everything on here that I thought would be dying out a bit going into Rich's THIRD YEAR. (And to be fair to myself...you helped get it rolling with the "Country Club" post). But it was an interesting perspective, and I hope (and believe, to some extent) he's right...and we start seeing the evidence this year.
Good morning. It's a beautiful Friday in the nation's capitol.
Maybe it's just me, but y'all might get negged, not for the reason you suggest, but because the original dude never mentioned Carr. Y'all mentioned Carr. No where in the original post did it say that Carr didn't like FIRERICHROD (I'm using his formal name here.) There certainly was no complaining about Carr's time as the Michigan head coach.
In fact, kip27 just starts in with all sorts of things that were never mentioned, oddly while he is complaining that the original dude is picking at old wounds. Carr has nothing to do with discussion anymore (and I see no reason that publically supporting Carr is verboten.) Bo CERTAINLY has nothing to do with this discussion.
It's put up or shutup time for FIRERICHROD and let's hope he gets it done and his name can go back to just RichRod. From here on out, it's on him.
...4th post down...from OP...
(I'm not here...)
(Like your sig....)
Oh. I read the original post fifty times to make sure. You can't possibly expect me to read like the entire thread can you? I mean I got stuff to say and I need to say it fast. My apologies.
Anyways, blaming Carr is pointless. Michigan never went anything like 3-8 with Carr as coach so you can't blame him for this. Blame transition if you must blame something.
Just to be factual the third post is where lloyds name first appears.
Stop being rational.
... but even Coach Rod would be the first to admit that it's past time for talk. More like time for this (but insert real opponent):
is 8-16, pure and simple. We can argue from now until doomsday about the reasons for 8-16 and who gets the blame, but people are fooling themselves if they think that the RR-haters would be as noisy and well-publicized if the record was reversed with a victory or two against MSU and OSU. It would be an RR lovefest, and the efforts of Rosenberg wouldn't make a difference.
Woody Hayes was a cantankerous prick, but because he won far more games than he lost, the OSU fans loved him. Much the same can be said about his former assistant who coached that team up north. Nick Saban is currently a demi-god in Tuscaloosa, but that guy is the biggest zero from a personality warmth standpoint I've ever seen wearing a coach's headset. If he failed to produce, the Bama fans would turn on him in a heartbeat. Look at Weis—the first year he was a golden boy, and the Domers all thought he was the second coming of Knute Rockne and Ara Parsegheian. He started losing games, and they tossed him aside like last week's fish.
But I love the Saban example. No one in history has been more in need of a personality transplant. His own assistants don't like him. But he wins, so no one cares. He's not a dick...he's single-minded. Likewise, when Rich wins, he won't be that "hick who fumbles over his words", he'll be the guy who "relates to players and keeps. Them loose. Personality doesn't get people fired, or contract extensions. Winning or losing does. Why was Bo cantankerous with the media? As he said - if I'm winning, I don't need you, and if I'm losing, you can't help/save me. (Though I think If you work for the Lions that may not hold true).
and are in solid contention for a Big Ten title, people will be coming out of the woodwork to sing RR's praises, including plenty of former UM players who have remained silent until now. And it's time for RR supporters to stop referencing LC in the context of this team. We all know the roster issues that RR inherited when he got here, and like Brian, I'm willing to give him somewhat of a mulligan on 2008. It's now the third year of the RR era, and it's time to produce.
I'll take all the positive stories I can get. I don't care if the guy is Coach Rod's brother. Thanks for sharing.
As a die hard Michigan fan living in Columbus, I will attest the smart OSU fans do really fear what this "New' Michigan can bring and is capable of. They are well aware of the place of evolution in football. They do see that their luck will eventually run out and they won't dominate the Big Ten forever. OSU's "munch mode" offensive scheme won't be able to keep up with a Michigan team that can score 35 pts a game.
One of my best friends is a die-hard OSU fan. He fears what Michigan will do if Rodriguez is given enough time.
Valenti and the grunt-speaking ilk - there's an odd, unspoken fear that lurks beneath the surface...
Great story. But BG would eat every West Virginia player alive. And then eat West Virginia
Smart OSU fans? They must be the ones without Buckstaches.
a friend of mine ran into RR in the parking lot at Zingerman's Roadhouse. he talked to him for like 15 minutes about Zingerman's Roadhouse. take from this what you want.
Someone told him how great the product out of Niman Ranch is, and he had to see for himself.
What's his favorite entree?
it was his first time there. that's why the conversation centered on the roadhouse itself. he was there for a UM hospital transplant center benefit dinner.
If Rich Rod started out 16-8, this would all irrelevant. Reality is he is 8-16 and with that record has opened himself and his program to attacks from both inside and out. He has to win this year, or he will not survive the winter ahead.
I really enjoyed reading this post. I am a big fan of RR's, even moreso with all the negativity, and I really think he will turn the corner if given the chance.
Thank you for sharing. It was refreshing to hear.
I swear someone has posted that exact same story on here before. Anyone remember that?
It sounds very similar to a conversation I had with a gentleman and posted about a few weeks ago.
I remember seeing a similar post but couldnt find it when i searched for it last night. His name wasnt david, but did your guy say he played LB/D line for Bowden at WVU? I was wondering myself if this was the same guy spreading the good word.
At any rate, id like to revisit your post. Im on my iPhone now out of pocket for a wedding weekend though. I'm such a fiend for this site. Is there an MGoRehab?
whether at Michigan, Alabama, Nebraska or wherever . This thread is interchangable with the discussion on Nebraska boards a few years ago. So similar--new guy tasked to "fix" a program averaging 9 wins, but "doesn't respect traditions",cherished streaks and records being lost, fans divided etc.
I have no idea if RR is the "answer" or if there was any "problem" other than continuing Michigan's tradition of excellence. It was amazing to see Nebraska immediately get back on track with coach Pellini, on the other hand Nick Saban went 2-6 his first year at Alabama.
One thing's for sure, your school's current dropoff is a momentary blip. If RR doesn't get it done, somebody else will.
...and he was a great coach for Michigan (and an even better man) but he is no coaching legend. If he had 10 more years under his belt and hadn't succumbed to Tressel, he'd likely have "legend" status, but I don't think he's legendary. Bo is a legend. Decades from now, the average college football fan will probably know who Bo was, but not Lloyd.
from a Nebraska fan.
Lloyd Carr had a 75.3 wp, averaged 9 wins a season, won your first NC since 1948, won the BT 5/13 seasons.
Bo had a 79.5 wp, averaged 9 wins a season, no NC's but won the BT 13/21 seasons.
So Bo won the BT more often but Carr won a NC, pretty even on the rest. Why more love for Bo? I've heard this from lots of Michigan fans.
I do mean Bo when I say "replacing a legend", but seems like Lloyd's #'s came as close as anyone could to meeting Bo's standards, even surpassed with the 1 NC. Hard even for a Michigan to have back-to-back legends.That's why their referred to as legends.
Nebraska was very fortunate to have Tom Osborne (83.5%) follow Bob Devaney (82.9%), but one of the reasons we took a dip the last 10 years was thinking this was normal for Nebraska, when in fact they were legends and that level of success is the exception, not the rule is for the best of programs.
"Why more love for Bo?"
I've never been able to answer that question. Part of it may have had to do with how often Bo proactively set the table by declaring "Our goal is to win the Big 10 championship!" This was usually a response to questions like "Where do you think your team ranks nationally?"
Eventually, most Michigan fans may have come around to Bo's world view and stopped caring about all the bowl losses. I can't imagine Lloyd (not to mention RichRod) getting those sorts of breaks.
Maybe Bo was smart. In most years that was easily the path of least resistance. He was looking at one big-time school on the schedule. He may as well have said "Our goal is to beat a bunch of mediocre teams from the Upper Midwest!" Doesn't sound quite as good, does it?
stopped caring about the bowl record while he was coaching. After he was finished, it became largely irrelevant. I don't have the stat book in front of me, but Bo lost what, 48 games? 22 of those games were by 3 points or less. He was the winningest coach, and Michigan had more wins than any other division 1 school in the 70's. (What have you done for me lately?) Won more than Switzer, more than Osborne, more than Paterno, Bear, & Woody in the 70's. The 80's brought his average down. If half of those three point games turned the other way, he may have had a couple of championships. But it wasn't to be. I guess some would say he could not win the close ones. (I don't know how many 3 point or less victories he had, compared to the losses.)
Big Ten championships and national championships - I think he wanted both very much. He had control over the big ten championship. But not really over the national championship - which was determined by vote, as much as by what happened on the field. But he didn't look back - he did not lose any sleep over it (if you believe him when he says that). Certainly not as we fans do.
I think a lot of it has to do with nostalgic memory. I imagine a coach or two from now (hopefully 20 years away), everything Lloyd did will be great too. Bo deserves everything he's gotten, but he didn't get it to this extent when he was coaching. "He's too conservative", "The game has passed him by with these modern offenses in the Pac-Ten", "Cant win a Bowl game". I kid you not I sat on an Tour bus after Bo's last Rose Bowl and people were saying "well, we lost...maybe now we can get out of the dark ages of football". People botched about Bo just like they do about Lloyd, or Rich. (Just watch The Big Chill). Probably the same people who complain the most now. They just don't remember it anymore.
As a Michigan fan, I'll gladly accept a national championship in exchange for a higher percentage of conference championships.
You have to admit though, that when Bo was coaching, the only way to a National Championship was by winning the Big Ten, and then the Rose Bowl, and then the vote. It just so happened that what it took to win the Big Ten, didn't do much in the way of preparation for post season success.
Granted, that is still pretty much what you have to do today. So I guess I would prefer winning more Big Ten Championships and winning more National Championships.
Like it or not, the BCS has allowed the NC to be settled on the field rather than a hypothetical matchup between 2 teams that will never play. In Bo's era it was more politics, TV, and glamour that got NC's crowned than today. That's not saying it doesn't happen now by getting a #1 & #2 that really shouldn't be there.
LLoyd's NC was before BCS. Hence the coaches' poll championship for Nebraska.
Many of Lloyd's years were during the BCS, so in theory he could have played for a NC on the field rather than a theoretical matchup. Bo NEVER had that option because in that era #1 and #2 only played on paper or in the scheduled bowl matchup. Everyone prayed that the #1 would be such a clear #1 that there was no question, but often there was and that even lead to split championships.
Do I think Bo could have had more NC's than Lloyd if they both had the BCS available to them...yes.
Take out the outliers of both Bo's and Lloyd's records and see what you get.
Follow-up question: Why no love for Frank Solich? 75% winning, a Big 12 title and a national title game appearance in his first six seasons, better than both Devaney and Osborne. Do you Huskers consider Solich a legend?
More like a Gary Moeller, not a legend because he didn’t coach long enough to win a lot of games or titleseven though the wp was outstanding.
Speaking strictly as an outsider seems to me Lloyd accomplished quite a lot with several BT and one National title and won over a 100 games. No one was as close to Bo’s level in the modern era.
My main point is maybe both Michigan and Nebraska fan bases have been spoiled by their legendary coaches, guilty of hubris and can learn something from the downturn of fortune that followed. Not sure what Wolverine fans consider "success" for RR and future coaches but Nebraska fans have a new attitude about coach Pellini winning 9-10 games.
and just because he had no NCs, doesn't mean he didn't deserve a few. Voters were, and are a finicky breed, and officials and our "one team bowl policy" kept some of his best teams from even playing at the end of the regular season.
As a braska fan, you know better than anyone how tough it is to win a NC, and in your case more than anyone, the saying about getting the right bounces speaks very loudly.
The reason Bo was a legend before he retired is because he returned Michigan to the standard it hadn't seen since Crisler. Carr merely inherited it and although he did a wonderful job of handling the changes Moeller had made offensively, its very difficult to gain the status one gains when he pulls off possibly the biggest upset in college football and immediately places the program back to significance. That '69 victory wiped out the the memory completely of the three losses he suffered. in his inaugural campaign.
You point out the similarities of their winning percentages, but I don't think you grasp the fact that Carr had far more talent than Bo did. If anyone ever hurt themselves by being ultra careful in recruiting, i.e., character issues, etc., it was Bo. If there was a question in this regard, no matter how minute, the kid wasn't offered. He did some wonderful things with players names Mallory, Dufek, Cannavino, etc., that never were going to play in the NFL.
And his teams never took a pounding and avoided embarrassing losses, especially the costly types that were viewed by the entire nation. It was easy for the Michigan fan to acknowledge the level of grit and determination separating Bo coached teams from those that followed. I think, if given time, those days will return because although many think RR likes to play around at practice, fact is he demands as much physically from his team as Bo did.
Ultimately, I think the timing of RR and Brandon will be much like that of Bo and Canham with both understanding the need for autonomy for the respective positions of the other and being able to work harmoniously toward a common goal. I have a great feeling with just a modicum of patience, M fans will be rewarded greatly.
But he also played against a lot more talent, if we're to be fair. In all honesty, Bo spent 3/4 of his career vs. a putrid Big Ten that consisted of 2 really good teams, and no one else. Makes those top ten finishes easier when you play 2 teams with talent...OSU, and the Boel game (vs. Teams like USC that had the NFL talent you speak of). Scholarship reduction and tv coverage really changed the lanscape of talent spread. I mean, forget your Iowa's and MSU's...Wisconsin is a regular contender (and thought to be for years, if you look at how people balance the new expanded Big Ten schedule), and they were a worse program than Indiana. Bo used to beat them by 30 and then complain in the press conference how bad a game Michigan played. So it's a different college football landscape. That's why I think a bunch of Rich Rod's biggest fans have set him up to fail...because while they talk of a streak of dominance that doesn't exist anymore, Rich would probably do well to do as much as Lloyd did.
To be fair to RR, lets see how his system does when he has a bunch of juniors, seniors, and depth. It's hard for any coach to succeed with freshman, sophomores, walk ons, and players transferring. 2010 will be an improvement, i believe 8-4, and we shouldn't be disappointed with 8-4 because if Carr was still coaching we would consistantly be 7-5 or 8-4 every year. 2011 will be the return of michigan football and the return to new years day bowl games my friends.
The Lloyd/RR comparisons are meaningless at this point. RR still has a long way to go (hopefully).
coming to you from the inside!
We changed from coach Carr and philosophy X, to RR and philosophy Y. Both are/were great, neither is perfect.
Transition can be rough, some aspects of the previous coaching regime probably exacerbated the situation, many decisions and actions from the current coaching staff also likely made things worse, both combined have resulted in some pretty poor results the past few years, but IMHO the future still looks bright over the next few years.
Bottom line, we sort of hit a perfect storm during the coaching change. No one is to blame. Everyone is to blame. Assigning blame gets us nowhere fast.
We are where we are. Arguing about how we got here is pointless b/c it is entirely a debate about the degree of responsbility between the old and new coaching staff and that will allways be based on personal opinion.....and it doesn't/shouldn't matter
Does Lloyd support RR? It is immaterial, he said he would let RR coach and that is just what he is doing. Whether he supports RR or not, public statements backing him can just as easily undermine him as the head of the program. I don't believe that a 'hey everyone, I believe in RR, you should too' statement from Carr would immediately engender the respect and support that many on here perceive as the obvious result. His silence is not evidence of non-support.
By the same token, I have never heard RR say anything remotely deragatory about the previous coaching regime, quite the opposite, in fact. He talked about changes, philosophy, etc., but nothing out of the ordinary for a new coach.
Does Lloyd support M football? Yesssssss and unerringly so. Even IF Lloyd had issues with RR, quite simply he is far, far too honorable a man to conduct any kind of behind the scenes activity that would hurt M football. Period.
We had a great coach. We have a great coach. We have a season coming up and we should all be excited about that. It will not be perfect, it will hopefully be better.