Sounds like an interesting experience. It would be nice if the RR dissenters could talk with these people.
Interesting Convo about Rodriguez and Michigan Football
its amazing how much former players that actually buy in to the system al la BG love RR. I wish everyone else could see it this way
Edit: Sounds like he wasn't technically a former player for RR but its great to see people players that respect how Rich Rod does things
He said BG would've struggled to compete for playing time? Is this merely because the type of fitness RR wants is drastically different than other types (I wouldnt imagine too different)? Or is it simply more evidence of the "country club" Lloyd was running?
Interesting indeed. I like hearing stuff like this, so thanks for sharing.
More like the latter. Essentially, he was saying when RR first arrived, no player was in the shape RR wanted them to be in. The BG comment was meant to highlight that at the onset, someone even as talented as BG wasn't physically prepared.
He also alluded to the fact that Lloyd is NOT a supporter of RR, at all.
Lloyd doesn't support RR? The world must be ending!
As I said, a lot of this isn't necessarily news to most people on this board. Just sharing a conversation.
it was an intresting conversation. I would like to run into someone that could have this information and be willign to share with me.
True, pre-RR BG didn't look as mobile and strong as after Barwis got a hold of him. I'll give you that he was an underclassmen at the time, but he came in as a LB recruit and got seriously big under Gittleson. Barwis did a lot in making BG the beast he is. Year 3 with RR's recruits and Barwis' S&C program will hopefully show it IS a winning combo.
It's a fact that Lloyd is not a supporter of RR's? When was this fact established?
No that was this guy being waaaaaaaaaaaay too high on West Virignia and RIch Rodriguez. If BG went there he'd still be eating people, and the other DE's on their roster would be lucky to get spot duty.
but I do think it is clear that BG bought into the conditioning regimen wholeheartedly and after 2 years in the previous program was on a completely different level after 2 years in the new program. His stats and performance bear that out, with further evidence being his draft position.
Lloyd did not run a 'country club', each coaching regime has it's own philosophy and emphasize different things, let's just leave it at that.
Nice work man. I did hear it takes about 2 yrs to get into the right shape for our program under Barwis.
But, you're rightabout Raw Talent into NFL talent. Pacman Jones(2star), Steve Slayton(3star), Pat white(3star), Chris Henry (2star), even though RR didn't recruit him, he developed him. RIP ..andmany others.
are not helping himself.
As an example, according to a friend who has attended, two years in a row RR spoke at the Chicago M club "Sports O Rama." While the general tenor was that the guysattending were not huge fans of RR in year one, in year 2 he apparently gave the same exact speech to the same group of people.
These people pay good money to attend the event and they were treated to the same stump speech two years in a row. Not good.
He lost several people who were at worst, neutral regarding him when that happened.
Now, he is never going to play as high brow as Lloyd could do with this crowd, but he needs to at least keep track of what speeches he gives and to whom he gives them.
If this gives anyone the impetus to dislike Rodriguez, then he's doomed. I can't think of a single dumber reason to dislike a coach.
I'll listen to the same speech 100 times in a row if we're winning football games. Rodriguez wasn't hired to write "I Have a Dream."
Don't you know where you are posting? You cannot, I repeat cannot post anything negative about RR. It gets these little bitches all upset and they just can't handle it.
"It gets these little bitches all upset and they just can't handle it."
Are we cross? Poor thing.
I'm gonna go all caps on this one:
HE IS A FOOTBALL COACH, NOT A MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER.
And even most professional motivational speakers just recycle their speeches over and over, anyway.
I am actually a little glad he isn't spending his time speech-writing, which I would argue is not the highest and best use of his skills.
He has more important things to do, like fill my cup with WIN this season /sarcasm
There is no substitute for victories at this point, which is as it should be. If RR is as good a coach as this WVU alum says he is, then he will get the 2010 team to a winning record. The only justifiable reason in my mind for a losing season would be injuries to key people at key positions.
Enjoyed the recounting of the convo, btw.
One thing I'd like Brian or some media figure covering Michigan football to do is interview Don Nehlen for his analysis of things. His status as a former assistant under Bo and winningest WVU coach who hired RR is unique.
Injuries to key people at key positions... like a QB, RB, and C?
Or two RBs. And maybe occasional nagging injuries to a WR or two. And if a CB got dismissed from the team a couple of games in.
You know. That sort of thing.
Especially on defense.
Given the large improvement offensively last year over '08, and the experience of guys coming back on that side of the ball, there's good reason to be confident the offense will be OK. We have to be vastly better on D if we're going to do much better than 6-6. GERG has to get it done somehow, someway with a lot of very green talent and very little upperclass depth.
"We have to be vastly better on D if we're going to do much better than 6-6."
I'm not so sure I agree with that. Turnovers lost the Iowa, Purdue, and OSU games for us last year. If we would have won those, that's 8 wins. If our offense improves the way I (and I think everyone else) expects it to, we should be able to win 8 or more (by that oversimplified rationale) assuming our D plays AS GOOD as they did last year, not better.
great divide among Michigan fans. This guy, if he is what he says he is, is friendly with RR. What would you expect him to say? The lack of talent agrument (valid or not) hasn't explained the losses to so many teams with inferior talent. So now it is the conditioning. I don't believe that for a second. There is certainly a difference in strength and conditioning philosophies, but if you ask BG, he won't say the conditioning program pre RR was bad - just different. It is amazing Michigan has put anyone in the NFL pre 2008. I am amazed so many NFL teams, with their limited rosters, took a chance on so many reclamation projects.
So he says LLoyd is not a fan of RR. How does he know that? Has he heard that from LLoyd? Probably not. So he is either making it up, or he heard it from RR. If RR is spreading that stuff, what does that tell you about RR's motivations? And if it is true, what has RR ever done to embrace Carr, and what he did for the program? I know that publcily supporting Carr is not popular these days. But Carr has publicily supported RR on at least two occasions. I have never heard RR say anything good about Carr and his program. And you can hate Carr all you want, but his record speaks for itself, including one national championship (the only one in fifty years), and being 3 points away from another championship game (and actually still should have been in that championship game) toward the END of his career.
People have said that Bo would have chastised Carr for not coming to RR's defense (which, actually, he has done.) Those people don't know Bo. Bo addressed this precise scenario in the last chapter of Bacon's book, "Bo's Lasting Lessons". For those of you who cite Bo to support "blame Carr" for the lack of support within the athletic department argument, you lack an understanding of who Bo was. Bo would not have stood by and said nothing about what is going on in the athletic department, but he most assuredly woould not be blaming Carr. Anyone who knows Bo knows that loyalty was more important than anything else. And he would tell you that to get loyalty, you have to give it.
Bacon's book is worth the time and money to read. Even if you think Bo was full it. He was a wonderful teacher. And one thing I believe - the game did not pass him by. Any coach who embraces his philosophy will win. Maybe that's why Harbaugh, and amost all of Bo's assistant coaches, have been successful. (Understand that I did not say that Harbaugh should replace RR.)
For the record, this is not an anti RR post. I liked Carr. I like RR. I want RR to win. But I think that the single most important factor causing RR's "support" problems lies in RR's failure to simply acknowledge the contributions of the past, rather than blaming the past for the problems his has today. Hell, he doesn't even have to believe that anyone before him knew what they were doing. He just needed to walk down the hall, and talk. And let the press believe that he valued the past.
All you have to do is look at the NFL draft the last two years and the number of upperclassmen playing to see that something was inherently wrong LC's last couple of years. Perhaps he couldn't get some kids to commit because he had so many long term starters coming back. The secondary mess is definitely on a deep lack of attention LC's last couple of classes. DW does not make a secondary by himself yet recruiting left little else. As a whole the depth chart is full of underclassman with hardly any of the upperclassman LC recruited.
As for BG, there is no way he would have been the 13th pick if not for RR and Barwis coming. He would have never been considered a 3-4 OLB prospect as he was 20+ pounds heavier. BG knows what the change in coaches did for him and constantly praises RR and staff.
This isn't meant as a knock on LC because I will be forever grateful for the NC won in 97, but a realistic look at how things were when RR got here. I know that maybe Boren and Arrington would have stayed if LC came back, but they wouldn't have made much of a difference.
As for BG, there is no way he would have been the 13th pick if not for RR and Barwis coming. He would have never been considered a 3-4 OLB prospect as he was 20+ pounds heavier. BG knows what the change in coaches did for him and constantly praises RR and staff.
This is pure speculation. Graham had 8.5 sacks and 3 forced fumbles as a sophomore while Carr was here. You can't say for certain that he wouldn't have been the #13 (or higher) pick, and the Eagles didn't draft him to play OLB - they drafted him to play DE. So that "OLB prospect" part is somewhat irrelevant.
90% of what you contribute here is "pure speculation" meant to be taken as Final Word Gospel.
Only you, Magnus, could type the phrase (further in the thread) "I don't understand the Bo lovefest" and not be negged into a fetal position.
I'd prefer if you point out my "pure speculation" that I pass off as Final Word Gospel, rather than commenting on a post where I don't speculate at all.
And anyway . . . yeah, you're right. I've never been negbanged in my life. I think Brian gave my account a shot of Negbang Immunization when I signed up. That's why I always end up with positive vote totals.
If this guy is friendly with Rodriguez, don't you think Rodriguez might have said at some point, "Coach Carr did ________________" or "Coach Carr said ______________"?
Also, Rodriguez did acknowledge Carr when he first got on the job. Since it's now 2.5 years later, I don't think it's necessary to mention the previous coach. Especially if he thinks that Carr is undermining him.
As full of BS as the random guy in the airport is, you might be just as full. But apparently you're still in love with Bo Schembechler after he's been gone for 20+ years, so I'm taking your Schembechler Lovefest with a grain of salt.
...Lloyd did this, or that...don't you think SOMEONE would have told someone in the media by now? It's always Lloyd did something...but no one is ever able to say what.
And if he's still in love with Bo...well, you are too, you just apparently don't know it. Because this Blog you've spent so much time on doesn't exist without Bo. He was the reason Michigan Football is relevant enough for people to care this much.
This guy had photos of himself with Michigan Coaches, players, personnel, in our facilities. I don't think RR necessarily had to say anything. I think we're paying too much attention to his thoughts on Lloyd Carr. I dont' think RR necessarily complained to this guy, I think this guy noticed it.
The only thing he specifically stated those people from within (boosters and others) who have a problem with RR, had this problem before he even coached a single snap. These guys also happen to be strong supporters of Lloyd. He also could be going off what others around RR (not RR himself) feel is the case. The bottom line is, Lloyd hasn't been very proactive or ready to be behind RR. That part is fairly obvious.
...between people who supported Lloyd not being fans of Rich Rod...and saying Lloyd hasn't supported Rich? Kinda a big distinction there.
The thing is, as Magnus said...Rich doesn't need to be praising Lloyd 2.5 years after he's done coaching. But likewise, it's time we all stopped blaming him for everything too then. It's Rich's program now. Other people have taken over worse teams and turned them around. I think Rich can too. And if he can't, it's going to have a lot less to do with what Lloyd did or didn't do than what Rich is doing.
I don't even doubt that Lloyd and Rich probably aren't that chummy. But beyond the opening statement, Rich hasn't been "all that behind" Lloyd. I don't want to get into a full listing and statements and dates, because that's a full argument I'm done with, because it's in the past, but from canning all the staff (which is his right), to the "not when I got here" stuff about not being good, to the finger pointing (which some see as honest...but I'm sure Lloyd sees as padding the buck, as a guy who wanted the media to blame him, and not his players, coaches or staff...even if behind the scenes he felt and acted differently).
So they're not buddies, I would guess. But they don't really have to be. Because Lloyd isn't going to get Rich fired, or get him a contract extension. Rich is going to do that, by winning or losing.
You're absolutely right. There is a huge difference between Lloyd supporters who don't like RR and Lloyd not supporting RR. I don't think there is some conspiracy where LC is trying to ruin RR's career. Does he like RR? I don't think it matters.
You're 100% right, Rich is going to determine his fate. The point of my post was to give guys a little reassurance that Rich Rodriguez is indeed well respected within the college football community (still) and a reason to hope for a solid season next year.
Well, if Rodriguez is only telling that to his friends (and it's unclear whether THIS guy is a close friend or not), then no, I wouldn't expect someone to run to the media.
It's not that I don't love Bo or that I think he's a P.O.S. or anything. But I also don't quite understand the lovefest for Bo (who, according to people on this blog, never did anything wrong) contrasted with the hatred for Lloyd Carr (who won a national championship, unlike Bo).
But since the post you were responding to was supportive of both (and Rich, too, actually), it didn't make a lot of sense in context.
And the way every single thing seems to be leaked by SOMEBODY, I would guess such info would be hard to keep a lid on. (I mean if you're telling some guy you don't know in an airport, how close to the vest are you keeping it?).
What has he told me that is 'new' information? I'm really confused. He didn't say "Lloyd reached out to X,Y, Z and had them do this, this and this." There's no specific allegation or news. It was just a conversation.
so much because of who he was as a person, leader and motivator. They loved his attitude and his passion for UofM. He was a winner, even though he never one the "big one". He was fiery. And he never had any significant personal PR "Issues", while he was in charge.
Along comes Lloyd. Who was more laid back and calm. He was a "Bo man" though and had some "Bo" moments (blowing off sideline reporters, stonewalling people during press conferences, etc.) and he won a N.C., so folks liked him for these reasons. Like Bo, he never had any big PR issues, himself.
Along comes the new guy, RR. Not tied to #1 or #2 above. If it has all been his fault or not, he has been a whirlwind of PR "issues", even before he set foot on campus. He doesn't act like #1 or #2 above, and to top is all off, he is losing.......badly.....
But, times are different now. With social networking, Tweeting, emailing, texting, etc. Kids today are more independent and are use to more open, back and forth communication.. "See QForce.com, Rivals, Scout, H.S. player press conferences, etc...." for more details. You didn't have any of this stuff, even 10 years ago....The military model for management that Bo used doesn't work very well anymore on the newer generation (I tell you what to do, you do it right now and you do not question my authority). Hell, this is even true in the business world now a days.....
I think RR strength as a coach/leader is that he understands what the recruits want now (his "audience") and manages the players in a more "touchy / feely" way. He will work the guys hard, but the major requirement for these kids is that the process, has to be "fun". Kids what to understand the "why's" of doing something and be invested in the process.
The reason a majority of our alumni dislike RR is because they grew up loving (and still do) Bo and still want that "fiery" attitude guy as their program icon / head coach. On Saturdays, they want to live in the past and don't want to face and / or accept the changing times. They hate the distractions surrounding the program, because there have never been any before the "new" guy showed up. They take the distraction and the losing and use that to build the case for bringing in the guys who can "fix" the problems they have with the current setup. They complain about the Spread offense..... blah........the 3-3-5 defense....that is for the weak.....questionable recruits.....never. And who will come to save the day, Jim H and Les M. of course, two Bo protégés. They will restore the program to it's rightful place, living and operating in the past.....
How does RR convince a majority of people to embrace change, who want to live in the past? I knew winning this year was important. But now after writing this, I think the 2010 teams performance, may be a defining year for our program, for years to come.....
I'm just curious if you have any evidence to support your claim that the "majority of our alumni dislike Rich Rodriguez."
Baseless claims and generalizations like these are the fastest way to destroy any chance of a legitimate conversation on this forum.
OK, I missed an important word there..... ''....a majority of our alumni WHO dislike Rich Rodriguez......"
Sorry about that....
Love Rich Rodriguez and want to see him wildly succeed.
*Source: Me. If figure, since you started throwing around baseless claims and all, I'd throw in one of my own.
You beat me to it. Essentially, you tell people what's going on in your life, that's pretty natural. RR probably wasn't badmouthing LC, he simply was talking to a friend. Also, RR did say some kind words about LC when he first joined Michigan.
There is a rift among Michigan fanbase, but at the same time, these people who are anti-RR never gave him a chance. Quite frankly, that's extremely irritating.
And for the record, I love Lloyd Carr and was about to quickly defend him. But, I also love my mom and not even she's perfect. Besides, it's his opinion/sentiment. Maybe LC hasn't really undermined RR.
The BG comment was pure speculation; I quickly doubted the comment, but even if it's an exaggeration, I think it still speaks to a lot of what we've heard in the past about strength and conditioning.
is, or was, perfect as a coach. Far from it. That wasn't the point of the post. The bottom line, at this late date, is no one is going to change the mind of the RR haters (they might tolerate him easier if he wins - but I guarantee you if he wins enough to keep his job - and God almighty, I hope he does - those that don'e like him will find some reason he doesn't measure up), and no one is going to change the mind of the LC haters. That is verified by the responses we see here.
I respect Bo and what he did for Michigan football. I respect Washington, and Lincoln, Jackie Robinson, Rosa Parks, and Edison and soldiers, for what they accomplished. I don't live in a vacuum. If I want to know about forming a government, I might want to know what Jefferson, or Madison, or Adams had to say. If I wanted to know about how badly people can treat other people, I might want to hear what Robinson or Parks had to say. If I want to know about football, or building a program, or rebuilding a program, I would want to know what Bo, or Bryant, or Paterno, or Parsegian had to say about it.
Keep your head in the sand. I do respect Bo, and I miss his being around. And I don't make any apologies for it.
November 2007 story after yet another loss by Coach Carr to Ohio State:
"The four consecutive losses to Ohio State, matched Michigan's longest losing streak in the storied series, and Carr became the first coach in school history to lose six times in seven years in the rivalry." http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3117704
Because I bet you wouldn't...
3-13 in the Big Ten past two years speaks for itself too then doesn't it?
But it's still a great post. It's amazing that people who complain the most about dissention in the ranks are far more likely to be willing to throw Lloyd under the bus for, well, everything. It seems most of the rift in Michigan Football is being caused by paranoid guys who disliked Lloyd so much they want to throw him under the bus for stuff he hasn't been involved with for years (everyone knows this will be the 3rd year he's not coach, right?). Never getting the irony that the unfairness Rich is being subjected to now is the same thing fans like themselves were doing to Lloyd for years.
Only thing I'd add is the conditioning meme is getting old. We've had a team the last two years that has been worse late in games and late in the season. Are there other reasons for that? Sure. But it's not a sign of a team that has been magically morphed into the best conditioned team in the land. Is Barwis more up to date and probably better at his job at this point and time? Probably. But is he some miracle worker who whipped a bunch of fat slobs into shape? I doubt it. He's good, and respected, but to think otherwise is to discount there are other guys on other teams who know what they're doing too. Most of the hype for Barwis has come from, well, Rich and Barwis. Glad to have him. But obviously talent matters more.
It's starting to bum me out a bit that everyone's focusing on the LC/RR rift. I really just wanted to bring to light some positive information about RR and not negative about LC. I love LC and thoroughly revere him.
I just wanted to let people know that a guy who knows football, was coached by Bowden, said that RR will turn things around, he's a fantastic coach. Is he biased? Absolutely, but I don't care. I'll quote Scarface from Half baked, "I believe him bee, I don't know why yo, I just do."
It's a good post. So I'm done here. It's just that there's been an undercurrently lately reviving the blame Lloyd for everything on here that I thought would be dying out a bit going into Rich's THIRD YEAR. (And to be fair to myself...you helped get it rolling with the "Country Club" post). But it was an interesting perspective, and I hope (and believe, to some extent) he's right...and we start seeing the evidence this year.
Good morning. It's a beautiful Friday in the nation's capitol.
Maybe it's just me, but y'all might get negged, not for the reason you suggest, but because the original dude never mentioned Carr. Y'all mentioned Carr. No where in the original post did it say that Carr didn't like FIRERICHROD (I'm using his formal name here.) There certainly was no complaining about Carr's time as the Michigan head coach.
In fact, kip27 just starts in with all sorts of things that were never mentioned, oddly while he is complaining that the original dude is picking at old wounds. Carr has nothing to do with discussion anymore (and I see no reason that publically supporting Carr is verboten.) Bo CERTAINLY has nothing to do with this discussion.
It's put up or shutup time for FIRERICHROD and let's hope he gets it done and his name can go back to just RichRod. From here on out, it's on him.
...4th post down...from OP...
(I'm not here...)
(Like your sig....)
Oh. I read the original post fifty times to make sure. You can't possibly expect me to read like the entire thread can you? I mean I got stuff to say and I need to say it fast. My apologies.
Anyways, blaming Carr is pointless. Michigan never went anything like 3-8 with Carr as coach so you can't blame him for this. Blame transition if you must blame something.
Just to be factual the third post is where lloyds name first appears.
Stop being rational.
... but even Coach Rod would be the first to admit that it's past time for talk. More like time for this (but insert real opponent):
is 8-16, pure and simple. We can argue from now until doomsday about the reasons for 8-16 and who gets the blame, but people are fooling themselves if they think that the RR-haters would be as noisy and well-publicized if the record was reversed with a victory or two against MSU and OSU. It would be an RR lovefest, and the efforts of Rosenberg wouldn't make a difference.
Woody Hayes was a cantankerous prick, but because he won far more games than he lost, the OSU fans loved him. Much the same can be said about his former assistant who coached that team up north. Nick Saban is currently a demi-god in Tuscaloosa, but that guy is the biggest zero from a personality warmth standpoint I've ever seen wearing a coach's headset. If he failed to produce, the Bama fans would turn on him in a heartbeat. Look at Weis—the first year he was a golden boy, and the Domers all thought he was the second coming of Knute Rockne and Ara Parsegheian. He started losing games, and they tossed him aside like last week's fish.
But I love the Saban example. No one in history has been more in need of a personality transplant. His own assistants don't like him. But he wins, so no one cares. He's not a dick...he's single-minded. Likewise, when Rich wins, he won't be that "hick who fumbles over his words", he'll be the guy who "relates to players and keeps. Them loose. Personality doesn't get people fired, or contract extensions. Winning or losing does. Why was Bo cantankerous with the media? As he said - if I'm winning, I don't need you, and if I'm losing, you can't help/save me. (Though I think If you work for the Lions that may not hold true).
and are in solid contention for a Big Ten title, people will be coming out of the woodwork to sing RR's praises, including plenty of former UM players who have remained silent until now. And it's time for RR supporters to stop referencing LC in the context of this team. We all know the roster issues that RR inherited when he got here, and like Brian, I'm willing to give him somewhat of a mulligan on 2008. It's now the third year of the RR era, and it's time to produce.
I'll take all the positive stories I can get. I don't care if the guy is Coach Rod's brother. Thanks for sharing.
As a die hard Michigan fan living in Columbus, I will attest the smart OSU fans do really fear what this "New' Michigan can bring and is capable of. They are well aware of the place of evolution in football. They do see that their luck will eventually run out and they won't dominate the Big Ten forever. OSU's "munch mode" offensive scheme won't be able to keep up with a Michigan team that can score 35 pts a game.
One of my best friends is a die-hard OSU fan. He fears what Michigan will do if Rodriguez is given enough time.
Valenti and the grunt-speaking ilk - there's an odd, unspoken fear that lurks beneath the surface...
Great story. But BG would eat every West Virginia player alive. And then eat West Virginia
Smart OSU fans? They must be the ones without Buckstaches.
a friend of mine ran into RR in the parking lot at Zingerman's Roadhouse. he talked to him for like 15 minutes about Zingerman's Roadhouse. take from this what you want.
Someone told him how great the product out of Niman Ranch is, and he had to see for himself.
What's his favorite entree?
it was his first time there. that's why the conversation centered on the roadhouse itself. he was there for a UM hospital transplant center benefit dinner.
If Rich Rod started out 16-8, this would all irrelevant. Reality is he is 8-16 and with that record has opened himself and his program to attacks from both inside and out. He has to win this year, or he will not survive the winter ahead.
I really enjoyed reading this post. I am a big fan of RR's, even moreso with all the negativity, and I really think he will turn the corner if given the chance.
Thank you for sharing. It was refreshing to hear.
I swear someone has posted that exact same story on here before. Anyone remember that?
It sounds very similar to a conversation I had with a gentleman and posted about a few weeks ago.
I remember seeing a similar post but couldnt find it when i searched for it last night. His name wasnt david, but did your guy say he played LB/D line for Bowden at WVU? I was wondering myself if this was the same guy spreading the good word.
At any rate, id like to revisit your post. Im on my iPhone now out of pocket for a wedding weekend though. I'm such a fiend for this site. Is there an MGoRehab?
whether at Michigan, Alabama, Nebraska or wherever . This thread is interchangable with the discussion on Nebraska boards a few years ago. So similar--new guy tasked to "fix" a program averaging 9 wins, but "doesn't respect traditions",cherished streaks and records being lost, fans divided etc.
I have no idea if RR is the "answer" or if there was any "problem" other than continuing Michigan's tradition of excellence. It was amazing to see Nebraska immediately get back on track with coach Pellini, on the other hand Nick Saban went 2-6 his first year at Alabama.
One thing's for sure, your school's current dropoff is a momentary blip. If RR doesn't get it done, somebody else will.
...and he was a great coach for Michigan (and an even better man) but he is no coaching legend. If he had 10 more years under his belt and hadn't succumbed to Tressel, he'd likely have "legend" status, but I don't think he's legendary. Bo is a legend. Decades from now, the average college football fan will probably know who Bo was, but not Lloyd.
from a Nebraska fan.
Lloyd Carr had a 75.3 wp, averaged 9 wins a season, won your first NC since 1948, won the BT 5/13 seasons.
Bo had a 79.5 wp, averaged 9 wins a season, no NC's but won the BT 13/21 seasons.
So Bo won the BT more often but Carr won a NC, pretty even on the rest. Why more love for Bo? I've heard this from lots of Michigan fans.
I do mean Bo when I say "replacing a legend", but seems like Lloyd's #'s came as close as anyone could to meeting Bo's standards, even surpassed with the 1 NC. Hard even for a Michigan to have back-to-back legends.That's why their referred to as legends.
Nebraska was very fortunate to have Tom Osborne (83.5%) follow Bob Devaney (82.9%), but one of the reasons we took a dip the last 10 years was thinking this was normal for Nebraska, when in fact they were legends and that level of success is the exception, not the rule is for the best of programs.
"Why more love for Bo?"
I've never been able to answer that question. Part of it may have had to do with how often Bo proactively set the table by declaring "Our goal is to win the Big 10 championship!" This was usually a response to questions like "Where do you think your team ranks nationally?"
Eventually, most Michigan fans may have come around to Bo's world view and stopped caring about all the bowl losses. I can't imagine Lloyd (not to mention RichRod) getting those sorts of breaks.
Maybe Bo was smart. In most years that was easily the path of least resistance. He was looking at one big-time school on the schedule. He may as well have said "Our goal is to beat a bunch of mediocre teams from the Upper Midwest!" Doesn't sound quite as good, does it?
stopped caring about the bowl record while he was coaching. After he was finished, it became largely irrelevant. I don't have the stat book in front of me, but Bo lost what, 48 games? 22 of those games were by 3 points or less. He was the winningest coach, and Michigan had more wins than any other division 1 school in the 70's. (What have you done for me lately?) Won more than Switzer, more than Osborne, more than Paterno, Bear, & Woody in the 70's. The 80's brought his average down. If half of those three point games turned the other way, he may have had a couple of championships. But it wasn't to be. I guess some would say he could not win the close ones. (I don't know how many 3 point or less victories he had, compared to the losses.)
Big Ten championships and national championships - I think he wanted both very much. He had control over the big ten championship. But not really over the national championship - which was determined by vote, as much as by what happened on the field. But he didn't look back - he did not lose any sleep over it (if you believe him when he says that). Certainly not as we fans do.
I think a lot of it has to do with nostalgic memory. I imagine a coach or two from now (hopefully 20 years away), everything Lloyd did will be great too. Bo deserves everything he's gotten, but he didn't get it to this extent when he was coaching. "He's too conservative", "The game has passed him by with these modern offenses in the Pac-Ten", "Cant win a Bowl game". I kid you not I sat on an Tour bus after Bo's last Rose Bowl and people were saying "well, we lost...maybe now we can get out of the dark ages of football". People botched about Bo just like they do about Lloyd, or Rich. (Just watch The Big Chill). Probably the same people who complain the most now. They just don't remember it anymore.
As a Michigan fan, I'll gladly accept a national championship in exchange for a higher percentage of conference championships.
You have to admit though, that when Bo was coaching, the only way to a National Championship was by winning the Big Ten, and then the Rose Bowl, and then the vote. It just so happened that what it took to win the Big Ten, didn't do much in the way of preparation for post season success.
Granted, that is still pretty much what you have to do today. So I guess I would prefer winning more Big Ten Championships and winning more National Championships.
Like it or not, the BCS has allowed the NC to be settled on the field rather than a hypothetical matchup between 2 teams that will never play. In Bo's era it was more politics, TV, and glamour that got NC's crowned than today. That's not saying it doesn't happen now by getting a #1 & #2 that really shouldn't be there.
LLoyd's NC was before BCS. Hence the coaches' poll championship for Nebraska.
Many of Lloyd's years were during the BCS, so in theory he could have played for a NC on the field rather than a theoretical matchup. Bo NEVER had that option because in that era #1 and #2 only played on paper or in the scheduled bowl matchup. Everyone prayed that the #1 would be such a clear #1 that there was no question, but often there was and that even lead to split championships.
Do I think Bo could have had more NC's than Lloyd if they both had the BCS available to them...yes.
Take out the outliers of both Bo's and Lloyd's records and see what you get.
Follow-up question: Why no love for Frank Solich? 75% winning, a Big 12 title and a national title game appearance in his first six seasons, better than both Devaney and Osborne. Do you Huskers consider Solich a legend?
More like a Gary Moeller, not a legend because he didn’t coach long enough to win a lot of games or titleseven though the wp was outstanding.
Speaking strictly as an outsider seems to me Lloyd accomplished quite a lot with several BT and one National title and won over a 100 games. No one was as close to Bo’s level in the modern era.
My main point is maybe both Michigan and Nebraska fan bases have been spoiled by their legendary coaches, guilty of hubris and can learn something from the downturn of fortune that followed. Not sure what Wolverine fans consider "success" for RR and future coaches but Nebraska fans have a new attitude about coach Pellini winning 9-10 games.
and just because he had no NCs, doesn't mean he didn't deserve a few. Voters were, and are a finicky breed, and officials and our "one team bowl policy" kept some of his best teams from even playing at the end of the regular season.
As a braska fan, you know better than anyone how tough it is to win a NC, and in your case more than anyone, the saying about getting the right bounces speaks very loudly.
The reason Bo was a legend before he retired is because he returned Michigan to the standard it hadn't seen since Crisler. Carr merely inherited it and although he did a wonderful job of handling the changes Moeller had made offensively, its very difficult to gain the status one gains when he pulls off possibly the biggest upset in college football and immediately places the program back to significance. That '69 victory wiped out the the memory completely of the three losses he suffered. in his inaugural campaign.
You point out the similarities of their winning percentages, but I don't think you grasp the fact that Carr had far more talent than Bo did. If anyone ever hurt themselves by being ultra careful in recruiting, i.e., character issues, etc., it was Bo. If there was a question in this regard, no matter how minute, the kid wasn't offered. He did some wonderful things with players names Mallory, Dufek, Cannavino, etc., that never were going to play in the NFL.
And his teams never took a pounding and avoided embarrassing losses, especially the costly types that were viewed by the entire nation. It was easy for the Michigan fan to acknowledge the level of grit and determination separating Bo coached teams from those that followed. I think, if given time, those days will return because although many think RR likes to play around at practice, fact is he demands as much physically from his team as Bo did.
Ultimately, I think the timing of RR and Brandon will be much like that of Bo and Canham with both understanding the need for autonomy for the respective positions of the other and being able to work harmoniously toward a common goal. I have a great feeling with just a modicum of patience, M fans will be rewarded greatly.
But he also played against a lot more talent, if we're to be fair. In all honesty, Bo spent 3/4 of his career vs. a putrid Big Ten that consisted of 2 really good teams, and no one else. Makes those top ten finishes easier when you play 2 teams with talent...OSU, and the Boel game (vs. Teams like USC that had the NFL talent you speak of). Scholarship reduction and tv coverage really changed the lanscape of talent spread. I mean, forget your Iowa's and MSU's...Wisconsin is a regular contender (and thought to be for years, if you look at how people balance the new expanded Big Ten schedule), and they were a worse program than Indiana. Bo used to beat them by 30 and then complain in the press conference how bad a game Michigan played. So it's a different college football landscape. That's why I think a bunch of Rich Rod's biggest fans have set him up to fail...because while they talk of a streak of dominance that doesn't exist anymore, Rich would probably do well to do as much as Lloyd did.
To be fair to RR, lets see how his system does when he has a bunch of juniors, seniors, and depth. It's hard for any coach to succeed with freshman, sophomores, walk ons, and players transferring. 2010 will be an improvement, i believe 8-4, and we shouldn't be disappointed with 8-4 because if Carr was still coaching we would consistantly be 7-5 or 8-4 every year. 2011 will be the return of michigan football and the return to new years day bowl games my friends.
The Lloyd/RR comparisons are meaningless at this point. RR still has a long way to go (hopefully).
coming to you from the inside!
We changed from coach Carr and philosophy X, to RR and philosophy Y. Both are/were great, neither is perfect.
Transition can be rough, some aspects of the previous coaching regime probably exacerbated the situation, many decisions and actions from the current coaching staff also likely made things worse, both combined have resulted in some pretty poor results the past few years, but IMHO the future still looks bright over the next few years.
Bottom line, we sort of hit a perfect storm during the coaching change. No one is to blame. Everyone is to blame. Assigning blame gets us nowhere fast.
We are where we are. Arguing about how we got here is pointless b/c it is entirely a debate about the degree of responsbility between the old and new coaching staff and that will allways be based on personal opinion.....and it doesn't/shouldn't matter
Does Lloyd support RR? It is immaterial, he said he would let RR coach and that is just what he is doing. Whether he supports RR or not, public statements backing him can just as easily undermine him as the head of the program. I don't believe that a 'hey everyone, I believe in RR, you should too' statement from Carr would immediately engender the respect and support that many on here perceive as the obvious result. His silence is not evidence of non-support.
By the same token, I have never heard RR say anything remotely deragatory about the previous coaching regime, quite the opposite, in fact. He talked about changes, philosophy, etc., but nothing out of the ordinary for a new coach.
Does Lloyd support M football? Yesssssss and unerringly so. Even IF Lloyd had issues with RR, quite simply he is far, far too honorable a man to conduct any kind of behind the scenes activity that would hurt M football. Period.
We had a great coach. We have a great coach. We have a season coming up and we should all be excited about that. It will not be perfect, it will hopefully be better.