Instate Recruiting Battle
An ESPN article recently had a troubling quote about instate recruiting (I know that they arent the greatest site for recruiting, but nonetheless). It basically said that more and more prospects think MSU is better than M. I know that most of you think that MSU overtaking M instate wont happen, that it is just a result of us hitting Ohio and Florida harder, but the past couple of years there has been a steady flow of instate recruits heading to MSU, which is sort off troubling.
(No paywallhttp://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/football/columns/story?column…
Let's revisit this in a couple of years.
The only recruits we have really pursued hard and lost to MSU were from Rennissance. There is nothing RR can do about a MSU booster running a HS
RR beat out MSU for a guy from Ren when he was at WVU. Carr got guys from Ren too when MSU wasn't even pursuing them because they knew it'd be pointless.
Carr was going up against John L. which has to be an easier task than recruiting against Dantonio. The only players Michigan recruited heavily that ended up going to state are Gholston last year and Lawerance Thomas this year
I heard the Ren. Coach didn't like what he heard from his player that went to WV, and still hates UM for how they treated Carson Butler, who was a head case, but I guess that was Michigan's fault. The result, no more recruits... As long as he has a say in it, that is. It's way too early to say we have totally lost the state, bein' we just added Will Campbell, the clear #1 instate player, just two years back. Give it time.
I would think Devin Gardner would be another example to go along with Campbell.
And some had him and Gholston close on "best player" in the state. I'm not worried though...
Technically, MSU is better than UofM, since they've won two in a row.
now you are just bating ppl lol
Nah. I'm just being honest. A lot of people around here like to ignore reality.
The jagged shiv of reason in the hysterical kidney of MGoBlog.
I don't know if it is a UofM slappy opinion that UofM is still better than MSU. Four years ago Michigan was one personal foul penalty from playing for the NC, three years ago we were ranked in the top 5 to start the season and were plagued by injuries all year. We have struggled for two seasons in a transition to a new coach. North Carolina won the NC in basketball last year but struggled with young players this year. By your logic, any team that beat them this year is clearly a better program? MSU was 6-6 in Dantonio's 3rd year, finished worse that the year before, had program wide behavioral issues, and despite getting Gholston (who I think looks like a workout warrior more than a football player) still had a much lower ranked recruiting class. How is it simple reality that they are better?
-I feel obligated to say I didn't neg you. Disagreeing with someone shouldn't be grounds for negging in my opinion.
They've had a better record and beaten us two years in a row. Our coach has won 8 games in two years on the job.
They're better because they won. I mean...if we won two years in a row, would you argue that Michigan isn't better than MSU? Absolutely not. You'd say, "Well, we've won the last two games, so we're better. Suck it."
It's just amazing sometimes what Michigan fans (and other teams' fans, I'm sure) convince themselves into believing.
So what if Michigan has a new coach? Let's say you buy a beat-up sports car and you're going to soup it up. In the meantime, some guy challenges you to a street race, but he beats you. Later he says, "My car is faster than yours."
Would you say "No, your car isn't faster. My car used to be faster and it needs a new engine, but when I finally fix it up in about six months, it'll be faster again. So your car isn't faster"?
That would be stupid. Yeah, his car is faster. Yeah, their team is better. You can believe all you want about how soon the ship is going to be righted, but in the meantime...sorry, that guy's car is faster. Ignoring it doesn't make it untrue.
What is amazing is how some people can miopically look at one thing and make it into another. Michigan's 2008 football team was not better than many teams that year. Michigan's 2009 football team was not better than many teams that year. Michigan's football program is better, historically, than everyone IMO, and right now, is better than all but probably 3 teams in the Big Ten. MSU is not one of those teams.
Damn...when people twist around words that are very easily defined ("better", for example), then it's difficult to argue.
Right now MSU is better. Like I said. They've had a better record and beaten us for two years in a row. There's no getting around it. You can ignore it if you want. That's fine. I guess that's what Michigan fans do.
But I'm done arguing what "better" means, because it's just ridamndiculous to have conversations like this.
I am more agitated by the tone of your argument. It is very condescending to say things like, " You can ignore it if you want. That's fine. I guess that's what Michigan fans do." It is implies that clearly you are of the superior intellect and I am walking headfirst into a wall struggling to realize that there isn't a door there. You have an opinion and I have an opinion. When left as such there is discussion. The approach you are taking is that we lower class fans just can't seem to come to grips with the simple reality that you have the ability to understand. It is an arrogant attitude and annoys me.
forget it
don't like Magnus, though they put up with it for his football knowledge.
was better in 2008 and 2009. No denying that. But to say they are the "better" team right now implies that they will have a better future which I disagree with.
Its possible MSU could prove better in the future, but a look at the talent of both teams, the on-field track record of their respective coaches and the recruiting histories of the 2 schools says otherwise.
Apparently Magnus hasn't checked out the MSU Spring depth chart......
March 25th, 2010 at 11:16 AM ^
FINALLY. I never thought I would see logic on this board. I guess having so many points negates the effect of a negbang. Agreed with everything you said.
It's hard to say you're wrong on this Magnus, but it's even harder to say you're right. I find that to be the case with many of your posts when the topic moves outside of technical football analysis. You know the technical side better than the vast majority of this board. The opinion side? Eh, I guess it depends on the amount of coffee you had on a given day.
Michigan State will never be a "better" program because it's a 2nd tier coaching destination. If Dantonio has an incredible year, he's going to jump ship just like Saban and they'll be stuck back down in the muck of deep mediocrity again.
The alumni support just isn't there to make MSU a sustainably good program, the best thing they can hope for is a couple of good years and then they start all over again. For that reason, I find it difficult to understand how an informed recruit would pick MSU over Michigan if they felt like they had an equal chance to play at both.
Michigan State was nowhere in B-Ball, until Magic Johnson went there, facilities were upgraded and Heathcote/Izzo made it a 1st tier coaching destination.
Heathcote didn't do much for MSU (aside from the two years he rode Magic's coattails). They were mediocre for most of his tenure. Izzo is pretty much solely responsible for their current state.
I don't drink coffee.
March 24th, 2010 at 11:38 PM ^
By Magnus' criteria MSU is better. Head to head they have beaten our boys. That is grounds for a sound argument in which one can say that MSU's 2008 and 2009 teams were better than ours. It is not a broadstroking statement in which he is supplanting Michigan from the top of the food chain in the state, he is just simply stating his opinion based upon what he considers to be the most unbias critera, their performance on the field. Because in our hearts, we know that we have a better program, better history, better coach, better personnel...but it has not translated to wins. So...they get the nod for their on the field performance. Like it or not, that is a sound way to judge the two teams, their head to head performances.
+1 for you sir. Touche.
Not that you need it, or that it matters. But sometimes the homerism around here drives me crazy. Michigan has sucked the last two years, and that's the reality. Part of bringing positive change is dealing with reality.
I appreciate your candid comments on recruits, too. I'm not astute enough to know who is a good prospect and who isn't.
I'm curious, though. What are some predictions (on recruits) that you have made which haven't matched up to reality. I'd be interested in both the positive and the negative, i.e., prospects you thought weren't very good who became awesome, and vice versa. The next question to follow that would be if there is some measurable factor that caused your bad initial projection.
One current case that would be interesting to follow: JT Turner. He has been widely hailed as da bomb, the second coming of Charles Woodson, etc. Now he appears to be a step back. Is he not as good as advertised, or do the schemes really make that much difference, or something else?
March 24th, 2010 at 10:03 PM ^
OUTPERFORMED MY EXPECTATIONS
Ryan Van Bergen
Martavious Odoms
HAVEN'T MET MY EXPECTATIONS (YET)
JB Fitzgerald
Michael Williams
Sam McGuffie
Those are a few that I can think of. The jury is still out on a lot of players, so I can't comment on some of them.
As for why:
I thought Van Bergen was too slow to play defensive end. I still don't think he's fast, but his motor has been good enough to help him make some plays.
I didn't think Odoms would be as good as he has been, partly because I wasn't familiar enough with Rodriguez's offense at the time. I thought Rodriguez would want speed demons at slot receiver, and I didn't really think Odoms was a blazer. I've partly been right because his acceleration is better than his top-end speed (in my opinion), but that acceleration has been good enough to turn him into a good slot guy.
I thought Fitzgerald would be a beast of a middle linebacker, but he's been behind Ezeh and I think he's been a little slower to learn than I had hoped. But who knows? He could have a great junior or senior year.
I thought Michael Williams would be a great replacement for Brandon Harrison as the slot corner. As it is, that position kind of disappeared, and Williams hasn't really found a place since then. Again, he might break out this year or next from that spur position. Hopefully he does.
I thought McGuffie would be good, but I wanted him to redshirt. I really thought he would have benefited from a year to get bigger, and I thought Brandon Minor was the superior back in 2008. I can't really take the blame for being wrong about this one, since he transferred and had a bunch of concussions, but he's someone I liked who didn't pan out.
I have to agree from a head to head, and overall record standpoint.
I hate it when that happens!
Technically, CMU is better than MSU, since they've won one in a row. So shouldn't they be sucking up all the in state talent?
Probably.
We all agree that Eastern sucks, right?
They suck.
define technically, 'cause I don't think it means what you think it means...
You could also say that M is better than MSU because we own the all time record battle. If M wins the next game and is 1-2 in the last three games does that make us the better team, or them? My point may be confusing, but I don't think you can say they are better simply because they won the most recent games. Most people will also be looking at the future of the programs, and while I am probably (read: definately) biased, I think M's is brighter.
If michigan wins, we are the better team. If state wins, they are the better team. If you want to debate programs, it becomes subjective, but we have Ritch Rod and they have Dantonio. Need I say more?
and say magnus comment will be negged lol
This depends on how you frame things. First, the NUMBER of recruits from the state of Michigan has been declining steadily since 2002. Second, the QUALITY of the recruits form Michigan has been consistent, or slightly improving since 2002. These data are from Scout, and are the number of Michigan recruits and the average star rating of the group since 2002:
2002 11 2.72
2003 6 3.67
2004 6 3.5
2005 6 3.5
2006 4 3.25
2007 5 3.6
2008 5 3.8
2009 4 3.25
2010 4 4.0(!) [the numbers are 3 & 4.0 if you discount Ricardo]
2011 2 (already) stars have not settled yet
The two best years in terms of quality were 2008 and 2010. The best years in terms of quantity were 2002-2005.
There are a couple of instate players that we really could have used, such as Baker, Capers, Mylan Hicks, Max Bullough, and Gholston, but as long as we are getting players that can play at a high level does it really matter what state they are from?
This article was written by Kurelic(also works for Spartan tailgate). It is so slanted it is ridiculous and not worth checking.
the OP's article is a regional roundup written by JC Shurburtt
It's a ESPN recruiting insider article so I can't link. I didn't see Shuburtt's article. The 2 scrubs MSU picked up he made them seem like All Americans and then he completly blew off Hollowell's commitment even though he and Thomas were the only ones on the ESPN150 watchlist. Then he went on to say if MSU can land Beyer, Zettel, Hayes and Arnett that would prove MSU is taking the state and Dantonio is winning the recruiting battle head up over RR. Sure if that happens he would be right, chances MSU gets all 4 is uh slim??
it doesn't matter if UM is better for him on or off the field. He will blindly walk off the cliff and not choose UM. We will always find similar or better talent so no worries.
Still waiting for MSU to "steal" a big name instate recruit from UofM... Gholston, Thomas, and Bullough were earmarked for MSU for a long time.. It would have been an upset if one of those guys chose UofM, not the other way around. And Michigan was too busy pursuing guys like Cullen Christian and Demar Dorsey to worry about what Mylan Hicks was doing. Seems to me that UofM is still able to recruit just fine in Michigan, while also recruiting guys from Florida, Cali, Texas, Pennsylvania, etc.. Something sparty is incapable of doing. Color me worried if MSU snatches a guy like BWC or Devin from UM. Until then, forever and always, fuck sparty.
The premise of the entire blurb is that, according to a kid being aggressively recruited by MSU, he likes MSU over UM. Is that some major story? Go talk to Conway or Hollowell and you'll probably hear how UM is the better choice. This is a typical puff piece that should probably be on a specific fan site, not a general-purpose recruiting article.
One thing I did find hilarious was the notion that MSU is somehow a receiver school, even though Dantonio has been about hammering the rock since he showed up. Sure, they could throw the ball this year when they were down, but this is not the type of team that is going to showcase any receivers. Pointing out guys who played for MSU 4 coaches ago totally ignores the fact that those systems are no longer in place.
Well, they've got one kid playing for the Redskins and another kid who had a pretty good Combine this year.
Meanwhile, Michigan has produced Laterryal Savoy and Greg Mathews.
I mean, the jury's still out, but judging by the current coaches only, I'd say MSU is more of a receiver school than UofM right now.
So one kid in the NFL makes MSU a better receiver school? You guys aren't exactly working with statistically relevant samplings are you? We have a punter who should be drafted this year. We are clearly the best 'punter school' in the Big Ten. Florida State had a defensive back win a Rhodes Scholorship. They are clearly the best 'intellectual defensive back school' in the nation. Are we really this bored?
(unless he tries to fake punt in the NFL, that is.)
ZOLTAN NO!!!
Never mind.
Michigan is clearly a better destination for a receiver wanting to make it to the NFL, because of Braylon Edwards.
Recruits don't give a poop about David Terrell or Jason Avant, because Erik Campbell is in Des Moines and Lloyd Carr is sitting in an office somewhere. They care about what you've done lately, and other than Chris Henry, Rodriguez doesn't have much in the way of receivers to brag about; Tony Dews, meanwhile, was coaching offensive tackles at CMU when Chris Henry was around. I mean no offense to him, but his track record for producing NFL-caliber wide receivers isn't exactly stellar.