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If you were negative recruiting against Michigan today....what would you say?

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:05 AM
#1
mGrowOld
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Joined: 10/04/2010
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If you were negative recruiting against Michigan today....what would you say?

There has been much talk recently on the board and in the media in general about the whole negative recruiting issue.  Many of the kids we actively recruited said that Hoke did not engage in this tactic while many of those same players reported that other coaches they met with did.   Lets face it - recruiting at its core is simply sales.  The salesman (Head Coach) trying to "sell" the recruit on the virtues of signing on the line that is dotted (I'm looking at you Alec Baldwin) so they will attend your school and play in your program for the next 4-5 years.  And having spent the better part of the last 30 years of my career in sales and sales management I can definitely tell you there are two schools of thought regarding negative selling.

School #1 states you NEVER mention your competition during your sales pitch.  That the merits of your offering should be enough to sway the buyer and besides, why waste your valuable time with the client talking about the other guy.  This would seem to be the current Hoke approach.

School #2 believes if you can clearly identify your opponent you go for the throat and use whatever means necessary to discredit their value in the eyes of the buyer.  Turn on the TV or radio during an election and you'll see first hand this approach in all its negative glory.  Coaches negative recruiting against us in the past used Carr's health (allegedly) and RR's potential termination as means of negative recruiting against Michigan's potential players.

But what about today?  What could you say if your were head up against Michigan and were going negative?  About the only thing I could think you could use was our poor NFL draft showing recently.  Auburn, for example, if going negative in the battle for Diamond, could point to a very strong NFL presence in the last few drafts while we have no one since Brandon Graham drafted very high.  And the reasons don't really matter nor does the number of players we used to place high in the draft under Carr.  We have done poorly recently in grooming players for the NFL and I wonder if that isn't a big underlying reason why we are losing out on some of these last big name recruits.

What do you think?

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:10 AM
#2
buttesnake
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I'd probably say "They're

I'd probably say "They're Michigan fergodsakes!"  But I have a sneaking suspicion that would end up backfiring.

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:52 AM
(Reply to #10) #3
MattisonMan
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Joined: 01/29/2010
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posted from iPhone

I hope you, however, like Bolivia.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:13 AM
#4
elaydin
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Joined: 04/17/2010
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Easy

For an SEC school against any B1G school:

- girls

- weather

- Big Ten sucks

- $$$$$

- more girls

- essssss eeeee seeeee

- $$$$$

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:37 AM
(Reply to #3) #5
Carl Winslow
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Joined: 11/10/2010
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Ya well our

Helmets got wings

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:06 PM
(Reply to #58) #6
TNWolverine
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I would say "They don't even

I would say "They don't even have a mascot! One of the oldest programs in college football history and they still haven't figured out how to design a mascot!!" lol

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:14 AM
#7
xcrunner1617
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Joined: 02/11/2009
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Michigan is in the Big Ten and the conferences recent bowl record leaves a lot to be desired. ESPN also has done a great job of making public opinion think that any conference other than the SEC and USC is inferior and not capable of winning anything. Until the Big Ten has a couple great bowl records along with a National Championship I think many coaches can use that to discredit Michigan and the other schools in the Big Ten.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:33 AM
#8
Tony Soprano
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Are you serious?

You must be an under-cover Ohio fan.  There's NOTHING negative about Michigan, so let's not waste our time on this here thread.  

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:15 AM
#9
thesauce2424
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I see this all the time

The analogy between negative recruiting and negative campaign adds is wrong. Negative campaign adds tend to keep independent voters from voting and bolster the confidence of those that hold the same views as the campaign that puts out the ads.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:16 AM
(Reply to #6) #10
thesauce2424
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*ads
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February 4th, 2012 at 10:26 AM
(Reply to #6) #11
mGrowOld
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I was using the election

I was using the election analogy to demonstrate the reasons why people "go negative" in any medium rather than the specifics of voting behavior.   Despite public backlash against the tactic we see it over and over in a variety of arenas for one simple reason - it's effective in achieving one's objective.

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:12 AM
(Reply to #15) #12
thesauce2424
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Yeah I get that, but

People think that the objective is to sway voters to a side. Thus, they liken negative recruiting to negative campaign ads. I'll agree that most people find negative ads/recruiting objectionable. I just don't think they're comparable with respect to intentions. Which, I thought was your point. I was just using my one post per 6 months( or whatever) to point out that they are not the same, as well as shed light on a common misconception about compaign ads.

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:50 AM
(Reply to #42) #13
mGrowOld
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I'm honored that you chose MY

I'm honored that you chose MY post to render your bi-annual thoughts in public.

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:07 PM
(Reply to #61) #14
thesauce2424
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You're very welcome good sir

After mostly lurking, I knew you would respond.



Now, on to the purpose of your post:



MSU/OSU

Our school is easier

We aren't going to punish you

More recent success



SEC

All of the aforementioned

Women

Weather

Better competition (real or not)



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February 4th, 2012 at 10:16 AM
#15
Tater
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OK, I'll play...

Michigan won't give you anything under the table.  No hostesses, no golden handshakes, no free drugs, beer, or tats.  And they make you do your own school work, too.  They'll kick you out of school if you get arrested for anything worse than DUI, and they won't even let you do more than one of them.  

If you come here to blah blah U, you won't have to worry about the police, either.  We handle everything "in-house."  And even if you get caught, we have the DA in our back pocket.  You can come here and do whatever you want on your way to the NFL, or you can go there and have to follow rules.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:27 AM
(Reply to #7) #16
coldnjl
Joined: 12/31/2009
MGoPoints: 12627
Thank god we don't give

Thank god we don't give golden handshakes! Coaches always wash their hands

 

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:36 AM
(Reply to #16) #17
teldar
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Joined: 07/14/2009
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Not only golden handshakes

No stinkpalms either.

 

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:26 PM
(Reply to #56) #18
bluesouth
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No stinkpalms but

the stinkfinger is always an option.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:17 AM
#19
Lionsfan
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Probably lack of recent

Probably lack of recent success, like how we haven't won the Big Ten since 2004, or how our last National Title was in '97.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:22 AM
#20
the Glove
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kills me to do it

Michigan has not won the conferences since 2004, they have only won 1 bcs bowl game in over a decade, and they haven't competed for a national championship in 15 years.

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:10 AM
(Reply to #11) #21
BlueMan80
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Joined: 01/21/2011
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My thoughts exactly...

Plus the Big Ten isn't as highly regarded as the SEC. Better teams, better competition, better chance to prepare for the pro game.

If that doesn't work you go for more national night games, better weather, better girls, and $$$.

Almost forgot to add that SEC players have "more chest" according to Les Miles....

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:24 AM
#22
PepperHicks
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Joined: 12/13/2011
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I've always wondered if some

I've always wondered if some coaches warn kids about how tough UM's academics are as a way to steer recruits away.  I'd imagine a degree from Auburn would be somewhat, ah, easier to attain than one from UM.  

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:24 AM
#23
Jinxed
Joined: 09/15/2009
MGoPoints: 1375
I could think of quite a few

I could think of quite a few things I'd say if I was talking to a receiver...

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:24 AM
#24
BlueUPer
Joined: 10/03/2010
MGoPoints: 2138
Why?

Maybe-- "Why would you want to go to a school that has won 42 conference championships? Why not come here and try to build something?". Or "Do you really want to be blue your whole life?"

Right now it is difficult to put a whole lot of negative spin on playing with Denard or playing for the coaches we have.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:31 AM
(Reply to #14) #25
ohioplayer34
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Joined: 01/02/2012
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worst thing we did was hiring Rich Rod

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:27 AM
#26
jmblue
Joined: 11/07/2008
MGoPoints: 56299
One thing is the offensive

One thing is the offensive style of play.  Our outside receivers haven't put up monster numbers in a few years, and I think other schools have been mentioning this to recruits.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:28 AM
#27
UMgradMSUdad
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Joined: 07/02/2011
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If I were negative

If I were negative recruiting, I would use Michigan's performance in the Sugar Bowl. Any recruit interested in Michigan surely watched the game, and let's face it, while Michigan won, they didn't play all that well.  We know injuries played a big role, but recruits probably haven't analyzed it that carefully. With prospective TE's and WR's, I would push the idea that Michigan is a run-first program, doesn't pass that often, and can't pass all that well.  Again, we know the full story, but someone pushing a half truth can get a lot of mileage out of these tactics.

I would say the whole NFL approach you suggested probably plays a role, too.  They might even use Michigan's high academic standards against us, along the lines of, "Do you want to work your ass off in classes, or work on your football skills and get a higher draft rating."

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:49 PM
(Reply to #18) #28
MGoSoftball
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Joined: 10/18/2010
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Im not sure if that

would work.  Yes, the players played like crap.  However, the coaches pulled it out.  It shows how good these coaches really are.  So to point out that we didnt play well but we won is actually a really BIG deal for the coaching staff.

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:42 PM
(Reply to #77) #29
maizenbluenc
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Joined: 07/21/2009
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Looked to me like the

players pulled it out.

The defensive game plan was clearly to stop the run (as it was against Ohio State) - betting on a Beamer game plan to keep the ball out of Denards hands rather than go hyper aerial.

Our offense struggled (and I'd love a UFR or some analysis to understand why), and didn't adjust well (like the MSU game). But the players stuck together and never gave up (and Molk risked his future career playing injured) and came out with a win.

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February 4th, 2012 at 7:03 PM
(Reply to #18) #30
jmblue
Joined: 11/07/2008
MGoPoints: 56299
I don't think recruits worry

I don't think recruits worry too much about individual games the way fans do.  They know that teams have off-days.  

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:28 AM
#31
m1jjb00
Joined: 11/21/2009
MGoPoints: 5350
Too many students with plus

Too many students with plus 100 IQ's. You know they'll kick you out if you flunk your classes? Come here. We got the diploma all filled out.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:37 AM
(Reply to #19) #32
mGrowOld
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Joined: 10/04/2010
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Not sure on the academic

Not sure on the academic angle.  When I was in school way back from 78-81 there were a LOT of cake classes that existed seemingly for no other reason than lifting ones GPA.  I took a 300 level geology class that was only open to students with departmental approval and had NOTHING but football and basketball players in it other than me and a handful of other "normal" students in it.  We spent the year weighing things and reporting the weights on tests.  Not kidding here.  I think everybody got an A.

Things may have changed since then but I wonder.  The only player of note I can think of getting booted recently was Tate and he flat out just stopped going to classes.  We may be harder than SEC schools but I dont know that it's THAT much harder for the classes a lot of athletes chose to take if all they want to be is academically eligible.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:39 AM
(Reply to #23) #33
UMgradMSUdad
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For the recruits, everything

For the recruits, everything is perception at this point--not reality necessarily.  

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:41 PM
(Reply to #23) #34
elaydin
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Joined: 04/17/2010
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I don't know if it's you or

I don't know if it's you or me, but in the last couple of months, most of your posts have started making sense...

Let's stop pretending academics plays much of a role in football recruiting.  Take a look at the majors of the football players.  A whole bunch of "general studies" and "kinesiology" majors.  

People also seem to think that somehow, going to an SEC school will somehow make it harder for a player to get a job after graduation.  This is complete nonsense.  A former football player in Alabama, even with an Auburn degree, will have no trouble finding a job assuming they're even mildly compentent.  Once you get your first job, nobody really cares where you went to school.  They only care if you can do the job.

I suspect academics is very low on a recruits priorities.

0. (for maybe 5% of recruits) Money

1. Distance

2. Opportunity to play

2. NFL prospects

4. Girls (this is probably too low)

 

huge gap

5. Academics 

6. Weather

 

 

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:54 PM
(Reply to #76) #35
mGrowOld
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Why thank you. I think.

Why thank you.

I think.

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:02 PM
(Reply to #23) #36
M-Dog
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Joined: 07/06/2008
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Tate would not have gotten

Tate would not have gotten thrown out at Ohio State.  Someone would have covered for him while he was avoiding classes.

It's not that we have some easy classes recruits can take, it's that at some other schools they don't have to take classes at all - easy or hard. 

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:36 PM
(Reply to #80) #37
elaydin
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nice try

Tell that to Duron Carter.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:33 AM
#38
LSAClassOf2000
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The Bullet Points...

You would have to hit on several things, including perhaps:

 - the recent lack of high NFL draft picks (which is a developmental issue that would probably ring large in the minds of recruits dead set on going pro at some point). 

- relative lack of recent major titles (overall historic performance and bowl record notwithstanding, it's been 15 years since a national title, and almost ten since we won the B1G)

- the recent perception of the B1G as a middling conference (I imagine that the ones that are set on the pros might want to be tested against the perceived "best")

- climate (this might matter to some people - we are the 4th cloudiest state and fall can be bloody damp and winter can be bloody cold)

- the standards (which are high for obvious reasons, academically and otherwise, but you could probably spin that into "You won't be able to commit fully to you game", which again, might sway a few people)

This is not exhaustive, of course, but it is an intriguing introspection. 

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:06 AM
(Reply to #20) #39
crjorgensen
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Joined: 01/23/2012
MGoPoints: 122
Definitely agree with all of

Definitely agree with all of this....We haven't won a big ten title/national championship in awhile. Also, academics really aren't a concern in my opinion for some of the highly ranked players in the country because most think they will make the NFL someday so they would rather not have to worry about the burdens of having a tough academic career while playing football. I just think that could lead to a lot of stress for some 18-22 year old kids. I could be wrong but since I am 21 I couldn't imagine going to one of the top universities in the country while playing football. It would make life extremely difficult. Weather could be a big thing for recruits from southern states/states out west that people are recruiting, but since a lot of the Midwest kids are used to playing in a colder climate this may not be as big of an issue as dealing with kids from the south. Obviously, some Midwest kids would like to play in warmer climates but they would also have to be further away from home which may be tough for some of these kids to deal with.

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:12 PM
(Reply to #20) #40
blueheron
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Joined: 03/26/2009
MGoPoints: 2579
NFL draft picks

You wrote: "... recent lack of high NFL draft picks (which is a developmental issue that would probably ring large in the minds of recruits dead set on going pro at some point) ..."

How do you explain Brandon Graham and Jonas Mouton?

Yes, I'm cherry picking there, but I'd say the lack of recent NFL draft picks (Mallet excepted) has more to do with a *lack* of talent rather than talent development. The '05 to '07 classes, in retrospect, look pretty weak. What's frightening is that they may end up looking great compared to the '09 to '11 range.

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:11 PM
(Reply to #70) #41
M-Dog
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Joined: 07/06/2008
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The University of Michigan

The University of Michigan has more active players in the NFL than any other school.

Let me repeat that:  The University of Michigan has more active players in the NFL than any other school.  That is amazing.  

You can recruit negatively against Michigan NFL-wise for the last couple years only.  Recruits are young and memories are short, but the last couple of years can be easily overcome. 

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:38 PM
(Reply to #85) #42
LSAClassOf2000
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Joined: 01/07/2011
MGoPoints: 81411
26, To Be Exact...

...per ESPN's listings - http://espn.go.com/nfl/college/_/letter/m

That is pretty awesome to basically have half a team in the NFL of just your former players. Listed right below them is MSU with 19. On the same listing, however, Ohio (that Ohio) has 46. 

To be honest, when I wrote my list, I was rather thinking of it in terms of what I would say if the conversation were taking place today. You're right, of course, in a few years, the slight decline might be all but forgotten and it wouldn't be an argument someone could use. 

NOTE: If anyone is interested, Shippensburg and Slippery Rock have made contributions to the NFL, with 2 and 1 listed resepctively. 

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:31 PM
(Reply to #85) #43
elaydin
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Joined: 04/17/2010
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Source? Where are you

Source?

Where are you getting that?  Everything I find on Google has Michigan at around #6 (behind Texas, LSU, Miami, USC and OSU).

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:34 AM
#44
ohioplayer34
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If I was recruiting against Michigan

I would say their cheap when it comes to paying for good coaches,and lack of success against Ohio.

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February 4th, 2012 at 7:05 PM
(Reply to #22) #45
jmblue
Joined: 11/07/2008
MGoPoints: 56299
Why would a recruit care how

Why would a recruit care how much the head coach is making?  Besides, Mattison and Borges aren't exactly underpaid.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:36 AM
#46
Princetonwolverine
Joined: 10/10/2010
MGoPoints: 11061
"Unlike us they UNDER sign

"Unlike us they UNDER sign their recruiting classes, fergodssake"

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:37 AM
#47
ohioplayer34
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Beat Ohio and recruit will come

The point is we have to beat Urban and company in November.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:40 AM
(Reply to #25) #48
Crable2thaGrave
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Joined: 02/03/2012
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ya like cars and tattoos?

ya like cars and tattoos?

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:15 AM
(Reply to #27) #49
JHendo
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Joined: 10/25/2008
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That's what you chose to say

That's what you chose to say for your first comment?  Interesting.  I guess it can only improve from here.  Anyways, awesome name and welcome to the board as a contributing member.

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:36 AM
(Reply to #30) #50
M Wolve
Joined: 09/04/2011
MGoPoints: 816
The

guy he is replying to has the screen name "ohioplayer34."  It was pretty funny.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:47 AM
#51
SysMark
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Joined: 11/15/2008
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They'll be warned in some

They'll be warned in some subtle or not-so-subtle fashion that if they go to Michigan they will have to actually go to school, and won't be getting the cars, tatoos etc.  Stamford's in the same position (though with better weather).

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:51 AM
(Reply to #28) #52
mGrowOld
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Joined: 10/04/2010
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I guess if you like salt

I guess if you like salt water better than fresh you could make the weather arguement but other than that.....

Stamford, CT

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:53 AM
(Reply to #31) #53
SysMark
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oops...got me before i caould

oops...got me before i caould fix it - I live in CT so cut me some slack :)

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:19 AM
(Reply to #32) #54
mGrowOld
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I was just teasing.  

I was just teasing.   Actually at first i thought you wrote "samford" and I have a buddy of mine whose daughter attends there.  So i got that snarky response all cued up before i realized I had misread your mistype!

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:22 AM
(Reply to #46) #55
SysMark
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got me again before I could

got me again before I could fix "caould"...rough morning so far...I think I'm too stressed thinking about our Giants tomorrow

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:28 AM
(Reply to #48) #56
mGrowOld
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My best friend is from Long

My best friend is from Long Island and is HUGE Giants fan.  I'm not telling him (yet) but i'm laying the 2.5 and taking Brady/Pats.  I read an article today that said money is dropping 2-1 on the Giants and the points and usually when that happens, go the other way!

Either way I'm jelous you have a team in the game.  I'm from Detroit (Lions fan) and have lived in Cleveland for the past 20+ years and now have Browns seasons tickets.  So I have a strong rooting interest in two of the last teams to never make the big game!

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:07 PM
(Reply to #51) #57
SysMark
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My brother-in-law and his

My brother-in-law and his three sons are rabid Browns fans.  Without a doubt the Browns are the most painfully frustrating team in the NFL.  The Lions have actually been worse - with the Browns it's the near misses deep in the playoffs that kill you.  From my time at UM the Lions are my second favorite team - hopefully it happens soon.

Can't argue with your logic - it is basically NY fans taking the Giants vs. nuetral fans taking Brady.  Actual New England fans are not enough to sway it.  I think the Giants are going to win but not easily, especially if they stay on their no-turnover run.  Putting aside the much discussed pass rush advantage, I think the improvement of Eli may be the deciding factor.  He has been razor sharp over the last 6 weeks.

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:51 PM
(Reply to #51) #58
bradybrady
Joined: 02/03/2012
MGoPoints: 136
posted from iPhone

Brady or Mannigham

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:47 AM
#59
bdneely4
Joined: 01/06/2009
MGoPoints: 2179
I would probably say........

"Son, why would you want to go to the school with the winningest program in college football?  11 National Championships?  3 Heisman winners?  Great traditions that date back many years?"

After second thought, I have no idea how some of the coaches convince these kids not to go to Michigan.  Man I love this school!

GO BLUE!

 

 

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:54 PM
(Reply to #29) #60
bradybrady
Joined: 02/03/2012
MGoPoints: 136
posted from iPhone

I'm committed

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:57 AM
#61
cigol
Joined: 11/21/2010
MGoPoints: 1227
Negative recruiting....

1) Weather

2) Our degrees are very comparable....large state school with big alumni network.  Unless you're from Michigan, you probably wouldn't know the difference.  Also, Michigan really sets itself apart in its grad programs...the undergrad is maybe top 30, to where if some SEC / Big 10 school is 40-60, I dont think a kid going into undergrad is really going to give a crap about the Michigan academic advantage...especially when most of that advantage will never be realized since Im not sure the last time a big time football recruit pulled a 170 on the LSAT or 30+ on the MCAT.  Also, kids get jobs based on graduating at big time college football programs.  Trust me, the football players going to Alabama, Texas, Florida, etc. that are graduating with a moderately human GPA are getting hooked up with jobs in the same way that Michigan players do.  

3) Brady Hoke is all about the seniors....sooooo if you want to play early, you better beat senior X out by a huge margin.  (This isn't necessarily true, but when you hear him on TV talking about the seniors, then another coach throws a half truth in there, it could stick: SEE Republican primary).

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:59 AM
#62
ClearEyesFullHart
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Joined: 09/09/2011
MGoPoints: 2756
Parking

Parking situation, girls are smart, weather, and for Jordan Diamond: See Newton, Cam.

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:46 PM
(Reply to #34) #63
maizenbluenc
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Joined: 07/21/2009
MGoPoints: 7931
yes

IF you can beleive the rumors from OSU fans, if Diamond was looking for extra incentive then Auburn is the finalist that would make me suspect the rumor more.

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:59 AM
#64
VAWolverine
Joined: 11/06/2008
MGoPoints: 3665
At Michigan...

you have to go to class.

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:05 AM
#65
KindOfBlue
Joined: 03/06/2010
MGoPoints: 5
Michigan limits the hair color of girls you can think about

"They tell their players to think only of brunettes.  Here, when the going gets tough, you are free to picture redheads/blondes/etc." 

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:06 AM
#66
True Blue Grit
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Joined: 01/21/2011
MGoPoints: 16087
You can negative recruit any school when it comes

down to it.  That's why Michigan really doesn't want to depend on getting last-minute kids to fill up our recruiting class.  We're always going to do poorly trying to play this game because of the negative recruiting we're up against.  Most of the players who are waiting to the last minute to sign are undecided (and possibly indecisive) and can easiliy be swayed by some slimy recruiter who waves some kind of inducement in front of them or makes pie-in-the-sky promises.  Homey (Michigan) don't play that game!  That's why we're going to lose out in most of these Jordan Diamond-like recruiting battles.  He seems like one of those players where the more he looked around, the more undecided he became - not less. 

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:15 AM
(Reply to #37) #67
riverrat
Joined: 02/01/2009
MGoPoints: 778
Bingo - all the hand-wringing

Bingo - all the hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth over Hoke's "inability to close" at the end was a bunch of crap, because the coaches absolutely did close in that we lost no one at the end...

In my mind, this NSD rocked, because it was low stress, with no surprises, and no desperate hoping to get a stud or two while competing against the cheaters in the SEC...

 

 

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:47 PM
(Reply to #45) #68
Rasmus
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Joined: 07/02/2009
MGoPoints: 2201
And

There's still a good chance of one more, which will be nice, but beyond expectations at this time. Hoke's method works in securing low-drama, high-quality players early on in the process and then keeping them. I don't expect him to be able to compete late in the process until he has been in place longer and has some championships and NFL starters to his credit.

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:09 AM
#69
sarto1g
Joined: 08/28/2010
MGoPoints: 4416
These aren't necessarily my opinions, but:

Coach prestige:  Brady Hoke hasn't proven he can do anything at Michigan with his own recruits and say he's just benefitting from RR's players.  The same goes at SDSU.  He was only there for 2 years and didn't prove he could build a program.  He also hasn't done anything on a national scale or proven he can sustain success.

Coaching longevity:  Coach Mattison is 62 and will slow down soon.

Location:  self-explanitory

 

 

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:12 AM
#70
Jasper
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Joined: 12/30/2010
MGoPoints: 1941
history

What would I say?

"RichRod was the coach there very recently. In his 3 1/2 recruiting classes he took midgets at every position. You'll have mostly midgets on the field and the scout team won't have any players of normal size. You'd be better off at MSU or Wisconsin."

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:13 AM
#71
rob6reid
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Joined: 01/08/2012
MGoPoints: 16
1. Michigan is so stacked

1. Michigan is so stacked that you'll never get any playing time.

2. Ann Arbor is too liberal for you.

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:39 PM
(Reply to #43) #72
champswest
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Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 18449
Point #1 is exactly what I was thinking.

Don't come here unless you want to compete against the best every day in practice.

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:15 AM
#73
Blue Palasky_68
Joined: 02/05/2009
MGoPoints: 949

I only want the kids smart enough to not buy into the negative as a part of my team!

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:21 AM
#74
Wendyk5
Wendyk5's picture
Joined: 11/20/2008
MGoPoints: 16680
If you walk over the

If you walk over the Washtenaw overpass carrying new textbooks, there's a chance you'll get caught in a massive wind gust and all your books will fly out of your hands and onto busy Washtenaw below. (I saw this happen once after a person had just gotten a bunch of textbooks at Ulrich's). 

 

Other than that, smooth sailing. Ann Arbor is awesome. 

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:22 AM
#75
michfan6060
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Joined: 01/22/2011
MGoPoints: 1479
If I'm Saban probably the

If I'm Saban probably the weather stinks, classes are harder, and I've won 3 national titles since they have won one.

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:25 AM
#76
stetgor
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Joined: 03/27/2011
MGoPoints: 234
Two points to address here. 

Two points to address here.  First of all Mgrowold, I disagree that there are only the 2 sales approaches you stated.  I've been a successful entrepreneur for years and in my experience, the most effective method of "sales" (if you're looking for longterm relationships) is to absolutely acknowledge your competition and to do so positively.  I objectively lay out what I do well and not so well and do the same regarding my competition. (trust be known, you can position things as positives for your competition that actually drive the prospect to you.  See answer to your question below).  You get the clients you should have and more importantly, KEEP THEM, and the ones you shouldn't have don't come to you.  That's a positive too since I don't go to the up-front costs without reaping the longterm benefits.  Most importantly, when your clients are a good fit, it's just more fun.

Ok, a sarcastic answer to your question is I'd tell recruits "if you'd rather play AGAINST the best rather than FOR the best, come to my school.  We play Michigan every year and you'll never get a better chance to measure yourself against the best". 

I'm out!

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:32 AM
(Reply to #50) #77
mGrowOld
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Joined: 10/04/2010
MGoPoints: 111811
You are 100% correct.  Let me

You are 100% correct.  Let me restate...."while there are many different methods of conducting a successful sales call there are two widely known schools of thought...."

I stand humbly corrected. (eyes looking down at shoes)

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:35 AM
(Reply to #50) #78
ChuckieWoodson
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Joined: 01/13/2012
MGoPoints: 12566
Well, keep in mind

Your sales approach only works if indeed your product/service is better unless you really spin the facts.  I agree that for long-term relationships (and, keeping clients is a lot less expensive than getting new ones...) your method is sound.  But if they start producing/providing a lot better product/service - you might be in trouble as loyalty only takes you so far.

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:52 PM
(Reply to #55) #79
stetgor
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Joined: 03/27/2011
MGoPoints: 234
Chuckie, I completely agree.

It's why I'm an entrepreneur rather than a salesman.  A salesman is generally locked into the product/product line he/she represents.  In my environment, I keep a given product/service at a competitive advantage as long as possible (at some point someone always builds a better mouse trap or penetration leads to declining new sales) then discontinue offering to new clients once it isn't.  It's why I always have an ever evolving product/service line going.  Because product cycles move so fast today, I find it makes a whole lot more sense to establish strong macro client relationships and bring appropriate products rather than represent a product and always looking for new clients the way the majority does.  Anyway, best of luck to you!

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:31 AM
#80
bacon1431
Joined: 07/26/2008
MGoPoints: 10330
You like Michigan? What are

You like Michigan? What are they paying you?.......Nothing???!!!??? You don't want to play for an ameteur team, do you?

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:32 PM
(Reply to #54) #81
bluestan
Joined: 09/17/2011
MGoPoints: 628
Strangely enough, I don't

Strangely enough, I don't remember us playing Appalachian State or Toledo.

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:48 PM
(Reply to #54) #82
bronxblue
Joined: 11/22/2008
MGoPoints: 59232
Rest of the coaching staff is

Rest of the coaching staff is a bunch of old white guys

And Fred Jackson, who thinks this list is tremendous!

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:53 PM
(Reply to #115) #83
bradybrady
Joined: 02/03/2012
MGoPoints: 136
posted from iPhone

Our coaching staffs will need a makeover

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February 4th, 2012 at 5:29 PM
(Reply to #115) #84
Urban Warfare
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Joined: 09/28/2010
MGoPoints: 1691
Actually, if I were negative

Actually, if I were negative recruiting an RB, I'd mention Fred Jackson.   Something along the lines of:

"Prospect, according to Fred Jackson, every running back he's coached over the past three years has had the strength of Jim Brown, the speed of Chris Johnson, and the toughness of Herschel Walker.  Yet despite that talent, the team's leading rusher has been the quarterback.  So is he lying, or is he just a godawful coach?"

 

 

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February 4th, 2012 at 7:08 PM
(Reply to #115) #85
jmblue
Joined: 11/07/2008
MGoPoints: 56299
And Jerry Montgomery, who is

And Jerry Montgomery, who is definitely neither old nor white.

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:28 PM
(Reply to #59) #86
michgoblue
michgoblue's picture
Joined: 11/16/2009
MGoPoints: 20962
Brandon

Is from incompetent. He pretty much aced his most important decision on the job.

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February 4th, 2012 at 7:13 PM
(Reply to #74) #87
snarling wolverine
snarling wolverine's picture
Joined: 12/14/2011
MGoPoints: 43028
You know Brandon has to be

You know Brandon has to be doing a pretty good job as our athletic director when the case against him boils down to "too much rock music" and "road uniforms aren't pretty enough."

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:10 PM
(Reply to #59) #88
maizenbluenc
maizenbluenc's picture
Joined: 07/21/2009
MGoPoints: 7931
This and

I have coached in the SEC. I know how to beat Alabama and LSU. I have coached teams to win 2 BCS championships. Yes Mattison was there with me, but he us old a may retire before you graduate

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:55 PM
(Reply to #84) #89
bradybrady
Joined: 02/03/2012
MGoPoints: 136
posted from iPhone

Mattisons time in Michigan might be an issue

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:43 AM
#90
WichitanWolverine
WichitanWolverine's picture
Joined: 09/30/2009
MGoPoints: 16847
A lot of these comments are

A lot of these comments are from the viewpoint of a school outside our conference, but what would other B1G schools say about us?

The lack of recent success, while true, is almost more of a positive aspect than negative.  There's a reason we brought in a new staff, and they've done a tremendous job thus far.

Nothing comes to mind right away that another B1G coach could negatively and truthfully say about us.  Perhaps they could mention Mattison's age as a concern.  That's a worry of mine, but I doubt it would really sway a recruit away from us.

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:45 PM
(Reply to #81) #91
bronxblue
Joined: 11/22/2008
MGoPoints: 59232
I wouldn't say the S&C

I wouldn't say the S&C program is a joke - Barwis coached most of those guys for 3+ years, and they have a rapport with him.  My guess is that in 3-4 years, we'll see kids coming back to work with Wellman.

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:33 PM
(Reply to #60) #92
M-Dog
M-Dog's picture
Joined: 07/06/2008
MGoPoints: 147119
B1G coaches have a much

B1G coaches have a much harder time recruiting negatively against us.  This is obviously evidenced by our tremendous success recruiting against the rest of the B1G.  They have the same negatives we do - weather, the lack of B1G success nationally, un-glamorous midwest location - plus more negatives of their own.

The exception to this is Ohio State.  Over the last decade or so, they have successfully positioned themselves as an "SEC North" school.  They went the opposite direction of Notre Dame which emphasized academics and integrity, and instead made it clear to recruits that anything goes, someone will cover for you.

Bringing in Urban Meyer just fuels this even more.  Make no mistake, this has been extremely effective for them.  If you are a 4/5 * recruit who's plans are to play in the NFL in a few years, it can very attractive to go to a place where you can just hang out and run wild through town when you are not playing football.  Who needs the extra burden of classes and lots of rules?

We have to hope that the spotlight on them from the NCAA infractions, and the instant hostility Urban Meyer has created among B1G coaches will constrain thier SEC-ness somewhat.

 

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:55 AM
#93
Tulip Time
Tulip Time's picture
Joined: 01/05/2012
MGoPoints: 1503
Don't know if

"Don't know if you noticed, but there's goat blood all over their locker room from the last coach. It's pretty gross. You don't want any part of that."

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February 4th, 2012 at 11:59 AM
#94
Amutnal
Joined: 02/05/2011
MGoPoints: 2095
I really think

Their obesity is an indirect turnoff for some recruits. It's like a job interview. All other things being EQUAL, an employer chooses the well-groomed, fit candidate over the 350 pound, sloppy one.

I also think that a lot of blue chip skill position players like to have their egos stroked a little, which I don't think our staff does to the degree of others. I think their shtick works better with lineman (which recent events unfortunately don't corroborate). Also, being overly critical, it is possible that some players (maybe more of skill positions) have more confidence in someone who is more slim and fit. If u were a stud WR and saw some overweight coach vs a fit or simply not morbidly obese one, who would give u more confidence all otter things being equal? Parents' opinions are probably subconsciously affected as well. I know this post will draw some harsh responses, but keep in mind I'm talking about potential negatives that may affect a recruits' decision process when he is torn between two schools.

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:33 PM
(Reply to #64) #95
michgoblue
michgoblue's picture
Joined: 11/16/2009
MGoPoints: 20962
Obesity

1. See Charlie Weis. Couldn't coach, but could recruit like a monster. He was fat.



2. Hoke just put together a top 5-6 class. All while being fat.



As to skill players, I think that the issue holding us back is probably Denard and maybe devin. It is not entirely rational, as Denard is graduating this year and Devin has a strong arm, but for a WR prospect, our passing attack is still an unknown. If I were a top WR I am not sure i would want to take the risk of going to Michigan until we show that we will have a consistent passing attack. These kids are making decisions partly to get to the NFL and a team's recent history of utilizing their position has to factor in.

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:20 PM
(Reply to #64) #96
Mgoblue2011
Joined: 01/21/2011
MGoPoints: 78
posted from iPhone

Let's be clear about this. Brady Hoke is NOT "morbidly obese" yeah he's a bit overweight but Charlie Weis he is not. Al Borges on the other hand is almost there.

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:48 PM
(Reply to #89) #97
Amutnal
Joined: 02/05/2011
MGoPoints: 2095
I wasn't trying to single out Hoke.

U are correct in that the morbidly obese reference was for Borges, not Hoke, although I didn't explicitly say that.



And again, I was just suggesting that being overweight might factor in the decision process if recruits are torn between two schools. Imagine Borges walking into your house if u were a recruit and tell me his weight doesnt leave a negative impression on some level?

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:33 PM
(Reply to #64) #98
narddog860
Joined: 02/01/2012
MGoPoints: 3
Now that's just silly, i'm

Now that's just silly, i'm not sure a recruit looks at Hoke and thinks "Hmm He's fat, I'm not going there." Just Silly

 

 

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:44 PM
(Reply to #95) #99
Amutnal
Joined: 02/05/2011
MGoPoints: 2095
I said

All other things being equal... More than once.

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February 4th, 2012 at 7:30 PM
(Reply to #112) #100
jmblue
Joined: 11/07/2008
MGoPoints: 56299
Do you know of a time in

Do you know of a time in college football recruiting  where this actually seemed to be an issue?

 

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:42 PM
(Reply to #64) #101
bronxblue
Joined: 11/22/2008
MGoPoints: 59232
I'd buy that if not for the

I'd buy that if not for the fact that it's not the other coaches at schools all hit the gym 3 hours a day and look jacked.  I mean, I saw a list of the top recruiters in college and most of them look, um, well-fed.  And while guys like Saban and Meyer look like they work out a bit, but Hoke doesn't look like a Mangino/Weiss; he's just husky.  

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February 4th, 2012 at 7:15 PM
(Reply to #64) #102
snarling wolverine
snarling wolverine's picture
Joined: 12/14/2011
MGoPoints: 43028
Their obesity is an indirect

Their obesity is an indirect turnoff for some recruits. It's like a job interview. All other things being EQUAL, an employer chooses the well-groomed, fit candidate over the 350 pound, sloppy one.

I would not assume that 17-year-olds' thought processes are identical to those of grown adults working in human resources.

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:01 PM
#103
Maize n Blue
Maize n Blue's picture
Joined: 09/09/2009
MGoPoints: 675
I would say "hey look at this

I would say "hey look at this thread on mgoblog http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/if-you-were-negative-recruiting-against-michigan-todaywhat-would-you-say"

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:17 PM
(Reply to #65) #104
blueheron
blueheron's picture
Joined: 03/26/2009
MGoPoints: 2579
rate

Score: -1 (Recursive)

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:02 PM
#105
jaggs
jaggs's picture
Joined: 02/03/2009
MGoPoints: 3981
I would say

They already have it all. They are the winningest program of all-time. Why not come here and be a part of building something.

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:08 PM
#106
scmaize
Joined: 01/07/2011
MGoPoints: 8
Weather

"Ann Arbor gets cold in the winter, and you'll freeze your butt off."  That's about it, and it only works for warm-weather schools, not our Big Ten competition.

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:25 PM
(Reply to #69) #107
bradybrady
Joined: 02/03/2012
MGoPoints: 136
posted from iPhone

Good that Meyer can't use that

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:25 PM
#108
UMfan21
Joined: 09/28/2009
MGoPoints: 23019
posted from iPhone

Nice try Urban. I'm not helping your recruiting.

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:57 PM
(Reply to #73) #109
bradybrady
Joined: 02/03/2012
MGoPoints: 136
posted from iPhone

Urban got owned

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:35 PM
(Reply to #78) #110
bradybrady
Joined: 02/03/2012
MGoPoints: 136
posted from iPhone

Madonna s daughter will go there too

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February 4th, 2012 at 12:59 PM
#111
LIZARD4141
Joined: 12/09/2011
MGoPoints: 123
There isn't a large

There isn't a large population of good looking girls at UofM,  and most are lesbians.  80% of the male population are guy's who are 5' 7'' or shorter and they like soccer.  They also have a inferrior complex because they are small and are geeks.  They spend their friday nights playing video games instead of doing keg stands and chasing tail.  A large percentage of the students will think they are better than you because their parents are wealthy,  but the only reason that they got accepted in the first place was because their parents are alums.  Brady Hoke will require you to attend class.  Attending class sucks.

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:17 PM
(Reply to #79) #112
Mgoblue2011
Joined: 01/21/2011
MGoPoints: 78
You could say that...

But it wouldn't be true. Sure the girls aren't as hot as probably any sec school. But you absolutely cannot look at the top end sororities here and say there aren't many hot girls.

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:33 PM
(Reply to #79) #113
bradybrady
Joined: 02/03/2012
MGoPoints: 136
posted from iPhone

Very convincing

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:35 PM
(Reply to #79) #114
bronxblue
Joined: 11/22/2008
MGoPoints: 59232
Come on Chizik, why you gotta

Come on Chizik, why you gotta lie like that after getting Diamond?

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:12 PM
#115
UMinOhio
Joined: 02/04/2012
MGoPoints: 99
ungulates abound

Thar be moose in der state. Moose can be dangerous.

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:32 PM
(Reply to #86) #116
bradybrady
Joined: 02/03/2012
MGoPoints: 136
posted from iPhone

Moose in Michigan.. Lol

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:16 PM
#117
jwilkins3
Joined: 01/28/2011
MGoPoints: 83
This is a tough topic

because this year and beyond will have more nfl players than the rich rod days

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:29 PM
#118
narddog860
Joined: 02/01/2012
MGoPoints: 3
the weather

I would say "DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH IT FRICKIN SNOWS THERE!!!"

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:31 PM
(Reply to #91) #119
bradybrady
Joined: 02/03/2012
MGoPoints: 136
posted from iPhone

I think it's about to change with the globose warming going on

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February 4th, 2012 at 1:37 PM
#120
M-Dog
M-Dog's picture
Joined: 07/06/2008
MGoPoints: 147119
The guy from your high school

The guy from your high school that went there last year got eaten by polar bears.

 

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:30 PM
(Reply to #97) #121
bradybrady
Joined: 02/03/2012
MGoPoints: 136
posted from iPhone

Funny

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February 4th, 2012 at 2:31 PM
#122
bronxblue
Joined: 11/22/2008
MGoPoints: 59232
If I'm an

If I'm an academically-rigorous school like NW, ND, Stanford, etc., I'd say:

  1. Highlight academic rankings.
  2. Talk about options after football.
  3. Point out athletic successes along with strong classrooms.

If I'm another Big 10 team:

  1. Coaching transition.
  2. Same conference, so still benefits of competition.
  3. Show "them" if they were slow to recruit/felt disrespected.
  4. "Arrogant" fanbase would spit you out.

SEC/ACC/Pac-10

  1. Proximity to home.
  2. Weather.
  3. Coeds.
  4. National success.
  5. NFL success.
  6. Why play with the junior leagues where everyone is slow.

Not saying any of these points are true, but those would be my arguments.

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February 4th, 2012 at 6:18 PM
#123
Monkeyknife
Monkeyknife's picture
Joined: 01/24/2011
MGoPoints: 3118
Unless you're the best of the best...

you'll never play.

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February 4th, 2012 at 9:30 PM
#124
uminks
uminks's picture
Joined: 11/10/2009
MGoPoints: 10602
who could resist playing in the big house?

I like the recruits we already have in the 2012 class. Sure it would have been nice to add a few more OL, but if they don't want to play for Michigan, then best of luck to them elsewhere.

 

 

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