If the Spur position disappears

Submitted by cypress on

Sorry, this is another thread about our D next year, so if this type of thread makes you twitch with anger..move on. It is important because it could mean the difference between a decent team and a great team. Anyway..here's the question:

If we scrap the current D scheme, what happens with the guys who are "tweeners" that play the SPUR for us now? We have T Gordon, Cam Gordon, Carvin, MRob, Hawthorne, and possibly Furman. Who do you believe will end up at a LB position, and who do you think will be better suited at SS or FS. I guess I'm hoping Carvin can play FS, MRob and T Gordon competing with Kovacs at SS, and the rest at LB. Any other opinions?

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blacknblue

November 8th, 2010 at 10:16 AM ^

I don't think we scrap the postions.

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure they played with four down line men 2 linebackers, and then they had Vinopal at free, the two corners, and also Cam Gordon and Jordan Kovacs on the field playing somewhere between the corners and the linebackers.

This defense is essentially a 4-2-5 and still utilize the type of tweener players that we have been recruiting the last couple years.

Joined: 06/18/2009

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His Dudeness

November 8th, 2010 at 10:37 AM ^

 You can set them up in weight lifting to get them out of the "tweener" build. Add more weight for the guys they think could be LBs and put the rest into a S role...

Joined: 11/24/2008

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joeyb

November 8th, 2010 at 10:58 AM ^

We were rotating between 4-2-5 and 3-3-5. The positions all stayed the same. If we were to go back to a standard 4-3, though, the Spur becomes the 3rd LB (The SAM) while the Bandit becomes the SS/FS/Box Saftey/whatever terminology they want to use. This is why Rodriguez keeps saying that scheme doesn't really matter, because our 3-3-5 personnel is the same personnel we would use in a 4-3. Look how much better we looked in the 3-3-5, though, with Roh at DE and Ezeh at SAM. It's amazing what a pass rush can do.

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kmanning

November 8th, 2010 at 11:02 AM ^

I think we'll see some type of hybrid scheme for next year, or we'll have some tough decisions to make. If we bring in a new DC and defensive staff and they want to run a 4-3... what do we do with Kovacs? I think everyone likes the guy, he's a great tackler and has been very good, but as we saw last year, if we have him as a safety in a 4-3, he'll have to play some deep safety, and that's just a recipe for disaster.

Or do we put Marvin or T Gordon at the other safety position by Vinopal/Carvin and then use Kovacs as an OLB? Is he even big enough to do that?

I will say, it's nice to possibly be overflowing with talent to put in limited spots on the field. Should make for some excellent competition and limited drop-off when someone goes down with an injury.

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bronxblue

November 8th, 2010 at 11:11 AM ^

Most of those kids will naturally get bigger the more time they spend in a big-time weight program, so at least a few will grow into other positions.  That said, good athletes find a way onto the field, and I expect that a couple of these tweeners will become at least situational rushers and/or pass-based defenders.  

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Magnus

November 8th, 2010 at 11:20 AM ^

Well, I think Cam Gordon should be playing linebacker, regardless (Spur counts).  So if we switch to a more traditional 4-3 scheme next year, I think Cam Gordon should play WILL, Thomas Gordon should play SS, and Carvin Johnson should play FS or SS.

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WolvinLA2

November 8th, 2010 at 11:29 AM ^

I think it would depend on recruiting a little, more specifically if we bring in HaHa or Karlos Williams, and Avery Walls at FS.  Assuming we bring in Walls but not the other two, I think we would have Walls and Vinopal at FS, Carvin, Kovacs and Thomas Gordon at SS (with Carvin being a guy who could play either if necessary), and MRob, Furman, Hawthorne and CamG at LB. 

MRob and CamG are the ones most on the fence.  If we get HaHa or Karlos, Marvin and Cam go to LB.  If we don't, but we bring in Desmond Morgan and Kris Frost (in addition to Kinard and Kellen Jones) but neither of the 2 big time SS guys, then one or both of those guys could stay at SS. 

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Seth

November 8th, 2010 at 11:43 AM ^

Great question.

Against a spread offense, having this type of hybrid safety/linebacker who can cover the slot yet still take on blockers is really important (the blockers get lighter, making them more useful). The 2006 defense actually used Brandon Harrison to good effect in a spur-like position.

Let's say you have a really good player at Spur, which Michigan should have given all of the talent we are accumulating there. Here's what I think we do in various formations:

4-3 -- There are several options for the Spur in a 4-3. Against spread teams, and on passing downs, he's less of an outside linebacker and more of a safety (this makes it a nickel package in a way). The biggest difference between this and what we have now is that you'd generally see the Spur on the strong side of the formation (since he's replacing the SAM), whereas he's usually on the weak side in our 3-3-5. On running downs, he would move out to Strong Safety, pushing the SAM into an interior position and giving us a 4-4 look. A Spur is a great thing to have around if you're facing a Triple-Option offense, since that offense stacks power up the middle, then puts speed against the OLBs on the outside. Against a Pro Style offense, your opponent will try to run off-tackle a lot in order to force you to sit the Spur in favor of a bigger OLB type (then they'll pass in the flats against your run-stuffing OLB). A really good Spur would be able to hang in there against this, shooting past blockers, causing disruption, and forcing the offense into the dreaded 3rd and long.

3-3-5 -- Obviously the spur does what he's doing now. In Casteel's 3-3-5 the Spur will be lined up against a slot receiver and cheat inside as much as he dares -- the closer to the QB the more of a blitz threat he poses, and the more help he will be against the run. You saw this in a very basic alignment a lot against Illinois, where Michigan came out with Roh-Martin-RVB on the line, and Obi/Fitz, Demens, and Mouton as the 3 LBs. Gordon would line up in the box to make it more of a 3-4 look, and then usually move off a bit to be over the slot.

4-2-5 -- This is the "nickel" that Michigan used to run against the spread to great effect under Hermann and English. The nickel shut down Purdue pretty efficiently. It struggles more than the 3-3-5 against QBs who can run, but is supremely effective against a passing spread offense. In this, I would guess that the Spur would serve as the nickel back instead of a cornerback, making the nickel actually a hybridized 4-3.

4-1-5 -- This is the "dime" package. No spur, since the dime does away with OLBs in order to maximize zone coverage. Usually it's against 4-wide or some such, so the blockers are receiver/slot/RB sized, so you don't really need a bigger Spur to take them on.

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