If Michigan loses to Michigan State does your confidence in the direction that the program is heading change?
I was thinking about how important this game is for Michigan this Saturday against MSU. Not only is this game important in regards to Michigan winning the Legends division, but also a measuring stick in the progress that Hoke has made since being hired. This is Hoke's third season at Michigan and historically a good coach at a school like Michigan that has tradition, great facilities, and deep pockets is enough time to build a super power. That being said it is not like Hoke walked into a perfect scenario. The team he inherited lacked depth up front and was built to run a system that didn't match what coach Hoke wanted to implement. It looks like Hoke has finally been able to build some depth up front, but the players are young and raw. Personally, I think the program is heading in the right direction. Dave Brandon should allow Hoke to coach for the duration of his contract as long as Michigan wins 9 games and is competitive with MSU and OSU. Now in year five if Michigan has not won a Big Ten championship then it will be time to look for another coach. The team will be loaded with talent and experience in 2016 for a new coach to step in and succeed immediately.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:16 AM ^
But I would really prefer a win...
October 29th, 2013 at 11:20 AM ^
October 29th, 2013 at 9:17 AM ^
can we at least wait until after the game for this crap
October 29th, 2013 at 9:18 AM ^
No, but it does change my outlook for the rest of the year. I think we'll go 11-1 if we beat Sparty and 9-3 if we lose.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:49 AM ^
October 29th, 2013 at 10:45 AM ^
I think a lot of OSU fans see how Hoke is recruiting and that worries them a little. It was definitely nice going into that Saturday in November and knowing (or feeling pretty confident) that OSU was going to beat UM. But there are a lot of OSU fans, myself included, who want to see Hoke succeed and continue to recruit well. I think that when every thing comes easy to you- especially winning B1G games for most of the 2000's- it leads to complacency and you end up getting smoked in back to back national championships. As much as OSU fans hate to admit it, OSU needs UM to be good. And that will drive OSU to be better. More OSU fans will realize this once we get left out of the NC game this year.
October 29th, 2013 at 11:26 AM ^
Why would OSU fans be worried about our recruiting? It's not like we're pulling in Alabama/Texas level classes every year. They're closer to that under Urban than we are under Hoke. Know the last time Rivals ranked one of our classes higher than Ohio State's? 2010. If anything, Ohio State is doing better in recruiting when compared to us than they were during the Tressel/Carrr years.
October 29th, 2013 at 11:59 AM ^
Whoa, man, try to have some perspective. First of all, at the end of the day, rankings are not that important as they are far from an exact science. Secondly, if you finish in the top 10- which UM has done and it seems like they will continue to do under Hoke- you have obviously recruited some very good football players. You have to give Hoke some credit in what he has done on the recruiting trail (especially if he lands Hand). I am still witholding judgment on his coaching ability/player development, but Hoke and his staff has done extremely well with getting talent to Ann Arbor.
October 29th, 2013 at 12:16 PM ^
I just don't see why OSU fans would be worried about us recruiting at our historical norm. From the Ohio State fans I know, they seem to think recruiting is going wonderfully for them and that for every Ohio recruit they lose to us, they grab someone better from out of state.
Hoke has recruited well, I just tend to think that he isn't having the monster classes that scare our top rival who are pulling in classes at least equal to, if not better than what we're getting.
October 29th, 2013 at 3:28 PM ^
"I just don't see why OSU fans would be worried about us recruiting at our historical norm."
Maybe because our "historical norm" had us beating them at least as often as we lost to them. Further, it is Hoke's ability to break through the "wall around Ohio" that Tressel built in the latter stages of Carr's tenure that has them justifiably worried.
Similaryly, MSU fans are worried because they were able to gain a short-term advantage in the rivalry when Michigan was at its historic lows.
October 29th, 2013 at 4:54 PM ^
I don't think it is Hoke's recruiting success in Ohio that has a majority of the fans concerned. At the end of the day, Urban still gets 90+% of the guys he wants from the state of Ohio. What I was alluding to in my previous post is that you cannot discount what Hoke has done not only locally but nationally- Peppers, Hand, Campbell, Harris just to name a few. I am not saying he won't outrecruit Urban but if he can keep it close and win some battles which he has done, how would OSU fans not be concerned? Again, though, that is good for the B1G, the rivalry and it will make OSU better in the long run so I am all for it.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:20 AM ^
This fan base is absolutely intolerable this week.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:57 AM ^
like this sometimes when people are unsure what to think about things. Win or lose, the Board will find an equilibrium after this week where nearly everybody agress that we are pretty good or pretty shitty. There will still be some hysteria, particularly if we lose, but it will be a much more stable environment and dialogue. It may be a clinically depressed dialgoue but the manic phase will be over.
Feels a lot like before 2009 Penn State around here right now (hopefully we don't have a gut punch like that coming). Everybody is antsy and confused as hell.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:46 PM ^
Good point about 2009 Penn St. I wasn't posting around here then but there's definitely a feeling right now as though we're at a cross roads. I'm a bit in the middle of the chaos vs everything is hunky-dory. Many questions are in all of us and this week does in fact, to me, have a bit weighing on it. Is the world hanging on this game? No, but enough is that will tell where this season is heading more or less how it'll likely end.
October 29th, 2013 at 11:08 AM ^
October 29th, 2013 at 9:21 AM ^
the make or break for Coach Hoke. The sad reality may be that we win all of our Legend division games (a perfect 5-0) and if we lose to ohio, MSU would likely play for the B1G championship (assuming that they would only have 1 loss in the conference). This would mean that Michigan would be 10 - 2 and still not be in the title game.
On the flip side if MSU wins, I wonder how the team will react because any chance of a B!G championship would be gone ... again.
Go Blue!
October 29th, 2013 at 9:24 AM ^
October 29th, 2013 at 9:31 AM ^
2. If the line on number of penalty-worthy WWF moves is at 1.5, I will take the under.
3. Channing Stribling gets his first career pick and Michigan's D forces at least one fumble.
4. Langford rushes for less than 100.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:24 AM ^
The coaches really need to create an advantage in this game, whether by scheme or new plays or trick plays. I'd like to see Sparty try a fake something, and Michigan be on the lookout for it and snuff it. I'd like to see a real counter to double A gap blitz and snap count jumping. I'd like to see Borges really have a plan to get some good (open) deep shots and running lanes against that cover 4. And I'd like Mattison to befuddle their Offense and force some turnovers. I don't expect to see this every down, but I'd like our guys to be outsmarting theirs. That needs to happen.
I don't want to be screaming "watch the fake" on every punt and watch as they go around for a 20-yard gain. We need to reverse that.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:27 AM ^
October 29th, 2013 at 9:40 AM ^
Three top 5 recruiting classes? When exactly did that happen? And are you seriously trying to count the 2014 class as a reason why Hoke should win games now?
October 29th, 2013 at 9:41 AM ^
October 29th, 2013 at 9:41 AM ^
Akron and UConn were close games, but there was nothing lucky about winning either.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:50 AM ^
...this is embarassing. Downright awful. In fact, you have no clue what you're talking about. None whatsoever.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:31 AM ^
Hoke is in his third year. No excuses. He MUST beat spartie and ohio. If he doesn't, then I have no confidence. None. The schedule is very favorable. There are no excuses. Good coaches succeed in second and third years. Period. It is time to show me. If Hoke cannot get it done he WILL not get it done.
I want him to succeed. I really do. Show me. Now.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:39 AM ^
You can't be serious. You have no confidence in Hoke if he doesn't beat OSU this year? Look at the respective rosters. That's a very large and very legitimate excuse.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:59 AM ^
October 29th, 2013 at 11:52 AM ^
While I agree with your roster point, I still expected (before the season) that we would beat spartie and ohio this year. Year 3. I expect that. So my confidence would be a casualty if we don't, especially since I have seen how 6-1 was accomplished. I believe that the close games against UCONN and Akron were not flukes, they were harbingers. So far I have been correct. Those games showed us to be SOFT. We need to turn it around and be tough enough to win these games ahead. If Hoke's team continues to be soft, we will lose to spartie and ohio, and my confidence will be completely gone. It is shaken right now. I hope to get it back.
So yeah, I am serious, and I am saddened as well. Look at history. Coaches at big time schools in their second and third year WIN. If not they lose their job and someone else steps in. I am aware of what Hoke started with here at Michigan. Well aware. Still, the toughness I thought was coming back is not. Is he another Notre Dame level failed coach? So far I fear that is a yes, unless he can win in his third year against his rivals.
And to cite a specific SOFT example....I am still stinging from the game two years ago when Hoke actually shook Golston's hand and patted him on the back after the game..... ugh how embarrassing. You think Bo or Mo and even Lloyd would have put up with that by acting that way? Ugh. We all know the answer to that. And that hurts my confidence.
October 29th, 2013 at 1:42 PM ^
So you think Hoke should have slugged Gholston like Woody would have? Being a jackass to a kid would be more embarrasing?
I have not one loss under Hoke in which I felt like Michigan lost because they were "soft" as you say. Soft teams don't come back to win when they're getting stunned by an inferior opponent. Soft teams crator and pout, Michigan did neither.
I think the problem is with your expectations NOT with what Hoke is or isn't doing. If you EXPECTED to beat MSU on the road, and OSU -- one of the best teams in the nation -- with a team as young as Michigan's team is, then you're not really paying attention, IMO. I WANT to beat those two team, but do I EXPECT to beat them? Hell no!
October 29th, 2013 at 2:03 PM ^
I never said Hoke should punch someone. I said he should not have shook his hand and, stay with me here, pat him on the back. Lloyd would have been clear about things.
I think we are soft because we get pushed around (by Akron omigosh).
I do think we have great resiliency and (young) talent.
I do not believe osu is one of the best teams in the nation. That is crucial to our points of view and who knows who is correct right now. But I definitely do not believe that. I do believe they are one of the best in the Big Ten and I think we can be as well.
I am paying attention. Look at my other posts. This is not a new topic for me. I have thought about this for a long time now.
And I think it furthers my whole point that you (and others) do not EXPECT to win this weekend. WE SHOULD EXPECT IT! We should not be at this point. I have faith that it will happen, I am just saying that my confidence of where this program is heading will be hit hard if we don't.
October 29th, 2013 at 3:13 PM ^
"And I think it furthers my whole point that you (and others) do not EXPECT to win this weekend. WE SHOULD EXPECT IT!"
I have no expectations -- expectations and attachments are the source of all human suffering. The results of something as complex as a football game are pretty much beyond anyone's control. Players and coaches can influence the result, to an extent, but trying too hard to control results that are beyond your control is folly.
When you state something like, "WE SHOULD EXPECT [to win]" you state it with bravado, as if expecting to win is the nirvana state that all fans should seek to attain. Not expecting to win is not indicative of a lack confidence nor passion for Michigan football. Not expecting to win is, IMO, indicative of understanding the reality of sports, the "on any given Saturaday..." idea, and accepting that my expectations are wholly and completely irrelevant.
I have no problem with your expectation, unless you (and others) decide that it's something that they should hold against others, and the coaching staff. As for the coaching staff, they have a very different perspective, and motivation. If asked, "do you expect to beat MSU?" I am sure you'd hear Hoke say something along the lines of, "I expect our team to play hard, to be physical, and to leave everything they have on the field for Michigan." Those, IMO, are healty expectations. They are expectations that are within the control of the coaches and players.
In reading your posts I get a very negative vibe from you, and specifically in relation to Hoke. Fine, your choice. However, I think your indictments of him and the teams that he's coached are unfair.
"We should not be at this point."
There is that SHOULD again. Why should we be at this point? Because...? We should be at this point because you feel like we're supposed to be? I personally don't think we should be. Setting aside my Buddhist philosophy for a moment, and looking purely at personnel and continuity, I don't think we're anywhere near "back" from the hole that Michigan was in since about 2005. You obviously harken back to the glory days of Bo, Mo, and early Carr. But, you can basically discount much of Bo's tenure (in comparing his era to today) as for his first 3 seasons there were no limits, then in 1972 the limit was 105, then 95 in 1978 -- it wasn't until 3 years AFTER Bo retired that the current limit of 95 was set. I loved those days too, believe me. But, rebuilding and reestablishing the pipeline of recruits takes time, and we're just not there yet.
October 29th, 2013 at 4:03 PM ^
"I expect our team to play hard, to be physical, and to leave everything they have on the field for Michigan". Agreed. If we do that, I would expect we would win. Having better caliber players than spartie, we should fare well. I have much faith that we can do this. I know all about reestablishing the pipeline, but I am not happy with the thought it should take longer at Michigan than is does at other programs. I am not giving that free pass to Hoke. And I hope he is man enough to understand that. Course it doesn't matter what I think, it matters, eventually, what the Money Men think and tell Brandon to do.
I would allow that the negative vibe you feel is our season so far. It has been a very negative 6-1. Two narrow victories against teams with 2 wins between them is included as well as continuing to underperform on the road. I would like my vibe to be on the fence kind of thing. The balance of the season depends on this game. My vibe/confidence will fall to the negative side if we lose because I feel Hoke has no excuses. If we win, bravo, and I will be vibing all positive about games to come this season.
October 29th, 2013 at 4:47 PM ^
"I know all about reestablishing the pipeline, but I am not happy with the thought it should take longer at Michigan than is does at other programs."
What programs are you speaking of? How long has it taken Michigan? Further, if it has, in fact, taken Michigan longer (which I don't think it has) to reestablish the pipeline, doesn't that indicate just how disfunctional Michigan's pipeline/recruiting/development had become?
Michigan essentially had the same regime in control of the program from 1969 until 2007. It had become stale, out dated in its facilities, techniques, and was getting walled off from its most fertile recruiting ground by OSU's new coaching staff. I feel like whomever Michigan chose to replace Carr was going to struggle -- change was needed several years before. RR, IMO, made things even worse with his lack of recruiting.
So, IMO, Michigan made the necessary changes to the facilities and got "new blood" into the program that were needed almost a decade before. You might think the rebuild is taking too long and get impatient, but I don't. To me, the RR years should be thrown out on a the time line -- very little rebuilding progress was made, and likely even more harm was done in recruiting. So, to me, it's 2010, and Hoke was hired to replace Carr. As such, I am not impatient because I know many of the issues (facilities, scholarship deficit, poor recuriting) have been solved. We have a great coach who has been recruiting very well. Now is the time for patience. Let the staff do their work, enjoy the fact that we can be rebuilding and still win more than we lose, and be excited about the team going forward.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:18 PM ^
What programs are you speaking of? How long has it taken Michigan?
Alabama, USC, Oklahoma...it has taken all a minimum of three years. They all won NC's in year four or sooner, and were in the top 5 in year three or sooner.
But that is beside the point, because I believe Hoke's strength has been reestablishing the pipeline to be sure. We have a talent advantage (by far) on Saturday. I do not think this can be denied.
It would be nice to see the rebuild translating to the field. And winning Saturday would validate that. I would be more confident that the rebuilding is happening. If they continue their trends and get pushed around again, then my confidence goes away.
We have a great coach who has been recruiting very well.
I am certainly not ready to call Hoke a "Great" coach. Why would one call him a great coach?
I am with you on recruiting and getting RR behind us. And I am willing to be patient. Just give me something to see it all happening. Becauseeeee, as I state above, I expect things to get going in Year 3. That may be too soon for you. I hold Michigan to high standards. So many others do it in Year 3. Why can't we? And I am not saying we have not. I am saying that IF we lose Saturday, we probably have not.
FTR it is not ideal to argue all this over a What If scenario. We might be in complete agreement if our OL all of a sudden starts blocking better and we can run and our QB doesn't turn the ball over and we push their OL around and so on.
October 30th, 2013 at 2:00 PM ^
"So many others do it in Year 3. Why can't we?"
Maybe because the pipelines were in better shape at those schools than Michigan's was when Hoke took over. That was my point in going back to 2005 to understand why Michigan is where it is today. I don't have time to investigate the three programs you listed above, but I would be willing to bet that they were no where near as had become -- remember when RR took over in 2008 Michigan was 20+ scholarships short of the allowable limit. Again, I'd be willing to bet that neither USC, Oklahoma, and certainly not the oversigning Crimson Tide turned over the program with that kinda of deficit in scholarships. Then throw in 3-9, no bowl for the first time in 30 years, bad press, and even worse recruiting, and one should have a pretty clear picture of why Michigan might take a bit longer.
"It would be nice to see the rebuild translating to the field."
I agree 100%, although I think that has been translating to the field. Michigan is undefeated at home under Hoke, has only lost 8 games in 3 seasons, and has a BCS Bowl win. They broke the losing streak to their biggest rivals, and went 2-3 against ND. Add to that the fact that recruiting has been excellent, and I don't see what all the complaining is about.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:51 AM ^
If this was 2015...I'd agree with you 100%. But, sorry my friend.
October 29th, 2013 at 11:56 AM ^
Really? You are willing to be soft for an entire 5 years? I sincerely hope that things turn around. They might. They could. That is why I am focused on how we do this week. If we are tough and win like we are supposed to, I would be the first to say confidence is renewed and the ohio game can bring it very high. But really? 5 whole entire years? What other big time program waits 5 whole entire years? I know of no successful program that waits that long.
October 29th, 2013 at 1:09 PM ^
October 29th, 2013 at 1:38 PM ^
Appreciated. This is what my friends and I talk about during timeouts in games.
I agree we are having our bad stretch now. I was born during the Bump Elliot era. The first football game I can remember watching was the 1969 UM-osu game. I am from the Bo era.
Let's not discuss Oregon and LSU since they are not storied programs from the Bo era and have only gotten good while, let's say, taking advantage of the rules.
notre dame == since Lou Holtz, they have had their bad stretch with coaches named Bob Davie for 5 years, Ty Willingham for 3, Weis for 5
USC == pre-Carroll, they have gone through a long bad stretch peppered with Rose/BCS-type Bowl appearances. Larry Smith lasted three years after 3 Roses in a row, Hacket 3 years total. John Robinson's second stint in there for 5 years and a Rose Bowl. I refuse to let Lane Kiffin help my argument.
Alabama == post Bear era (pre-Saban and not counting Gene Stallings NC & cheating 7 years), you had Ray Perkins for 4, Bill Curry for 3, Mike DuBose for 4, Dennis Franchione for 2, and Mike Shula for 4 (omg).
I will state I was surprised that some of these coaches went more than 3 years, but will point out that their final seasons were garbage.
Sooooo, the above is what I am concerned about. If Hoke isn't the answer, we will know in Year 3 but may hang on longer for no real reason. So, this year I am not even asking for a NC, I am asking for Michigan Football. I want to beat our rivals. I do not want to be pushed around by the likes of Akron. I will lose my confidence if we lose to our rivals. I will KNOW Hoke isn't the guy. I hope that doesn't happen. I am not predicting the outcome, I am saying if Hoke is not another Bump Elliot, we MUST win this week, plain and simple.
October 29th, 2013 at 1:22 PM ^
To echo what Reader71 said.
Texas was a national non-entity after their glory days in the 60's, and it wasn't until Mack Brown came along with VY and McCoy that they regain their national status.
Bama won the NC in 1992 under Stallings and weren't back there until 2009.
You seem to act as if "waiting" means being "soft" and not winning. By contrast, I think "waiting" means understanding how CFB cycles work. When you're young and talented it's just a matter of time before your experienced and talented, and that is when you're most likely to win championships. Waiting 5 years (from the time a coach is hired) is giving that coach at least one complete recruiting cycle. Let that coach have an entire roster of players that he has recruited and developed -- especially if he can keep the team winning most of the time in the mean time. That was what did RR in. They gave him a pass for 2008, but he couldn't win with any regularity while he was rebuilding. Hoke has been.
October 29th, 2013 at 1:48 PM ^
Agreed with a lot there. I am not saying I already have lost confidence. I am anwering the OP's question, kinda. I am saying my confidence will change for the worse if they lose this week...then prolly gone completely if we lose to ohio.
We are i2i on the CFB cycles. {except please let me point out that Texas was a national Power in the 70's through Fred Akers reign....then they had coaches for 5 years at a time while winning their conference}. I can be patient.
The SOFT reference is because we have been this year. On the lines and in tackling. By soft I mean not physical, not imposing our will. It is football, after all.
If Hoke is going to get 5 years fine. But if he cannot beat spartie and ohio in year 3, my confidnce that he will be the man and lead us past 5 years will be gone.
Does anyone really believe we if we lose to them both this year but will magically beat them both NEXT year when they are both on the road? My confidence needs Hoke to win these games now.
October 29th, 2013 at 10:20 AM ^
October 29th, 2013 at 9:32 AM ^
If we go PSU and continue to do completely worthless play calls and DG isn't turning it over I'll be quite disappointed. If DG is turning it over I don't think I can blame the coaches for that as much as DG continuing to grow.
I've got a nervous excitement about this game - if we open it up and play the offense that we're best suited for I think we win by 10 or more. If we go into "OMG we're playing on the road we need to try 1 yard and a cloud of bodies" mode I'm going to be extremely disappointed.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:44 AM ^
Depends on why he's turning it over to me. If we're consistently putting him in third and long situations by refusing to pass on first and second down, it's going to be hard for me to blame him if that's the case.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:34 AM ^
I just want us to play well. For me, that's what's been lacking this season - a real sense that we're a good, disciplined, well-coached team. I'd like to see some consistency now. Even if we don't win games, if we're in them from start to finish, then I'll feel like we're headed in the right direction. So far, this season has me confused on what direction we're going in.
October 29th, 2013 at 10:15 AM ^
Spot on. The record last year wasn't great but we were competitive in every game save the one against the JV team for the NFL. I felt very good about the direction of the program last year because a couple of plays here and there and we have a very good record with one of the harder schedules. This year we have a much easier schedule so if we go 8-4 we have not made progress. If we go 9-3 or better coupled with a bowl win I would say that is progress. Definitely too early to be calling for Hoke's head IMO but Funk and Borges should probably get questioned.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:38 AM ^
October 29th, 2013 at 9:46 AM ^
per Mlive:
"It all starts Tuesday at 7 p.m. No live television broadcast is scheduled, but a replay will be shown at 7:30 p.m. Thursday on the Big Ten Network"
http://www.mlive.com/wolverines/index.ssf/2013/10/michigan_basketball_s…
October 29th, 2013 at 9:46 AM ^
The recent threads around here make me want to gouge my eyes out. For fuck sake people, lets play the game first.
October 29th, 2013 at 9:46 AM ^
Next year will be better and quite honestly, If we don't show vast improvement it wouldn't bother me to lose a few more. I think that this season is more of a building block to next season but if we skate by and win these next few games we shouldn't and then lose to OSU two times, to end the season, followed by a thrashing in a bowl we shouldn't be in, it could kill any momentum we may have for next season.