If Michigan loses to Michigan State does your confidence in the direction that the program is heading change?

Submitted by graybeaver on

I was thinking about how important this game is for Michigan this Saturday against MSU.  Not only is this game important in regards to Michigan winning the Legends division, but also a measuring stick in the progress that Hoke has made since being hired.  This is Hoke's third season at Michigan and historically a good coach at a school like Michigan that has tradition, great facilities, and deep pockets is enough time to build a super power.  That being said it is not like Hoke walked into a perfect scenario.  The team he inherited lacked depth up front and was built to run a system that didn't match what coach Hoke wanted to implement.  It looks like Hoke has finally been able to build some depth up front, but the players are young and raw.  Personally, I think the program is heading in the right direction. Dave Brandon should allow Hoke to coach for the duration of his contract as long as Michigan wins 9 games and is competitive with MSU and OSU.   Now in year five if Michigan has not won a Big Ten championship then it will be time to look for another coach.  The team will be loaded with talent and experience in 2016 for a new coach to step in and succeed immediately. 

umchicago

October 29th, 2013 at 2:48 PM ^

I've read many of your posts and really appreciate your viewpoint.  but to use a basketball analogy.  Trey Burke was great at driving the lane and making contested layups (call this man ball); against most anyone.  However, if I'm playing against a great 7 ft shotblocker (call this playing 9 men in the box), I'm not going to have Trey keep driving for layups to continually see his shot swatted into the 5th row.  I might have him drive, pull the D, the kick it out to open guy (like a play action pass or quick screen).  as bad as we run out of the I-form, i don't advocate abandoning it.  but 25 times with no success is like having 20 shots blocked.  the psu game was a horrible strategy.  i really don't understand how anyone can see past that.  the IU game was a much better mix, and i give borges credit.  but he crapped the bed against psu.

Space Coyote

October 29th, 2013 at 3:14 PM ^

And it's not a bad one, but hear me out.

Before Michigan tried to either a) kill the clock, or b) felt comfortable with their position to kick a FG, Michigan ran Fitz or Green 14 times. 14 times in 54 minutes of play. That's about 16.666 times in a game if you extrapolate it to 60 minutes. Three of those were to try to pick up "and 1" situations or trying to kill the clock at the end of the half (when the first down pop pass didn't spring, Michigan was just trying to get into the half, so they ran Fitz twice). So on normal downs they ran with the RBs a total of 11 times.

To me, that's a number that indicates "we're keeping the defense honest but we are running a lot of other things". Or in your basketball analogy, they went to it enough to keep the defense collapsing to open up the shooters. Now, I agree I would have liked to see it get more varied by down, and it did in the second half. But at the end of the day, people are vastly overstating how often Borges ran Fitz head first into brick walls. He used 11 plays to set up pretty much every successful deep pass Michigan had.

Again, the game plan wasn't great, but it should have been succeeded, and to some extent it still did. Or to throw it back in your analogy, if Burke had to take 11 to 14 shots (however you want to quantify the "and 1" situations), contested, difficult shots that had a minimal chance of scoring, say he makes two or three, is it worth it to leave the three-point shooters wide open all night. You can argue, maybe he should have taken only 9 shots or something like that, is that enough to keep the defense collapsing? What if for a time the defense quit collapsing as PSU quit stacking the box? Should those number then start going back up? So there is a magic number somewhere in there with a changing defensive plan. Michigan did need to at least get the defense to respect the run to open up the pass within their game plan. They were able to do that, but did they do it too much, perhaps. I just don't think it's as wildly out of control and stubborn as people are making it out to be. 

FWIW, I don't mind people arguing that "yeah, maybe it should have been 7". I think when Borges looked back maybe he though, "yeah, maybe should have done it fewer times". The point is to try to see things from the there and now perspective, and trying to set up what Borges was trying to do within his game plan. You can't just abandon the game plan, and if the game plan is to run to set up the pass to an extreme extent, you need to do it a bit. So yeah, maybe it should have been 7, I have no problem with the argument.  But I just think people are acting like he did it 27 times in the first 54 minutes, rather than what really happened.

umchicago

October 29th, 2013 at 7:11 PM ^

i agree with much of what you say here.  however, i don't think you can just shew away the end of regulation and the OTs (settling for punts and FG).  i have as much an issue with that strategy as the overall game strategy.  but we don't really know if that was hoke or borges.  and i don't want to beat that dead horse.  hopefully borges may have learned his lesson, as you have to agree the play breakdown was much different in the IU game (ie. throwing on early downs; more spread runs vs i-form runs, etc).  but we've seen this in prior years; great gameplans against iowa, sc, neb and osu (both at home); yet several headscratchers: @iowa, @nw, @msu, @osu, alab, @psu, @nd, akron.  he's paid too much money to have all those headscratchers.

HAIL-YEA

October 29th, 2013 at 10:41 PM ^

I get that you have to run the ball a bit just to keep the defense honest. But if every single time you run that zone stretch outside..you lose 2 or 3 yards, wouldnt it be better to just slam it up the middle for no gain or maybe a yard or 2? What kills me is these run plays that take a long time to develop and go for big losses. Half the time I am just hoping we dont fumble..the lss of yardage seems guaranteed.

pescadero

October 29th, 2013 at 2:00 PM ^

".in theory they can and might very well work when the pieces of the puzzle/experience are gained and in place."

 

I suspect it is a difference in how one sees the coaches duty.

 

The job of the offensive coordinator is to put the offense in an OPTIMAL play... a play that SHOULD succeed, not a play that COULD succeed.

 

SC seems to consider any play that COULD succeed to be a good play call. I consider any play that isn't the OPTIMAL play a failure.

Space Coyote

October 29th, 2013 at 2:09 PM ^

Then probably 99% of all play calls are failures, because you can't just call the optimal play every time.

I don't think simply because a play could succeed that it's a good play call. All plays could succeed. A Hail Mary, in theory, works every time. So no, that's not at all what I think, though it's been said multiple times. Borges called played that should succeed, that took advantage of the opponent, and set the opponent up for success. The game plan wasn't optimal, but the play calling within the game plan should have succeeded. Not could have, should have. 

Victors5

October 29th, 2013 at 1:13 PM ^

Fitz and Gallon are the only experienced players on our offense? What about Lewan and Scholfield? Funchess has a year and a half of experience under his belt now. Devin Gardner is in his 3rd year in this system, and has a years worth of starts under his belt. Any faults in his game aren't from inexperience, but from lack of development by the coaches.

I actually agree with most of your points, but dont try and over sell them by making ridiculous claims about having only 2 experienced players on our whole offense.

Space Coyote

October 29th, 2013 at 1:34 PM ^

So I wasn't counting the OL as play-makers. I took it to mean he meant skill-position guys and the QB. As for the OL: OL, probably more than any other position, is about a unit. You can have two great pieces and still be a terrible unit, because it's about all 5 working together. The unit as a whole is vastly inexperienced, and having two guys that have experience doesn't make up for that.

Gardner has some decent experience, but it's not great. He only has 2 years of QB coaching in this system and has only had a single off-season as a starter. For how raw he was coming in, he has made great improvement, no doubt. I think he'll continue to improve, but I wouldn't call him an extremely experienced player, he's kind of inbetween.

At the end of the day though, on both sides of the ball, Michigan is plugging in experienced players between the youth. It's the opposite of the desired way to have it. You want the more talented but raw inexperienced players to be plugged within the experienced players to maximize output. The balance is off on both sides of the ball.

pescadero

October 29th, 2013 at 2:43 PM ^

Years experience in program (FR=1, RS FR/So =2, etc.)

 

Texas A&M skill players: 18 "player years"

Michigan skill players: 22 "player years"

 

Texas A&M OL: 17 "player years"

Michigan OL: 17  "player years"

 

Number of starts (entering season):

 

Texas A&M skill players: 39 starts (2 players with 0 starts entering this season)

Michigan skill players: 46 starts (2 players with 0 starts entering this season)

 

Texas A&M OL: 74 (2 players with 0 starts entering this season)

Michigan OL: 58 (3 players with 0 starts entering this season with Butt as TE)

Space Coyote

October 29th, 2013 at 4:04 PM ^

So I really didn't want to get into this again and don't want to continue what has started. Needless to say, there are different philosophies when looking at protecting players, giving them easier assignments (does this mean more likely to not lose consistently, or more likely to win?), utilizing methods that help you move the ball in big chunks because you aren't consistent, etc.

There is nothing binary about this. It's not 0 or 1. Running out of a formation the majority of the time doesn't mean every time. Running power doesn't mean you're utilizing you weakness when your weakness is apparent no matter what you run. I really don't want to go into depth with this again because I'm exhausted arguing my point of view. I'd really like to move past the game and onto future games. I am really sorry if you are genuinely asking because you haven't seen my responses or if you're just wondering my opinion or what have you, but it is something that has worn on me enough to not really wish to go in more depth now.

funkywolve

October 29th, 2013 at 10:16 AM ^

Is the secondary really that young? 

Gordon is a senior who is a multi year starter.  Avery's a senior who's started and seen lots of playing time.  Taylor and Countess might be young when it comes to class designation but they are both 2nd year starters. 

Wilson is young and a first year starter and the 6th db they bring in is very youong but with their core nickel package, don't they have tons of experience? 

pescadero

October 29th, 2013 at 1:25 PM ^

"Experience checks in at different times for different people. Better coaches will help it come along sooner, having more experienced players around you will also help."

 

Can't one also make the argument that better coaches will recruit players who have less far to come and that the if the "distance" needed to be covered by a player is excessive - it is a failure of the coach in recruiting?

1464

October 29th, 2013 at 9:23 AM ^

I don't understand the negging of the OP.  He asked an honest question that created a good dialogue.  Negging has become a reflex for some people, they hit the down arrow before their brain even processes the content.

I don't think that this game will be the bellwether, but I do think that in year 4 or 5, there will be a point that if we are not functioning at a high level, blowing out bad opponents, winning the games we should win, and looking good in the process, that the question will be a fair one.

On one side, Hoke's best recruiting classes are still young or not even on campus yet.

On the other, current players are not living up to their billing.

I still have 100% faith in Hoke, and even Borges.  I'd like to give them both two more years of unconditional support.  Creating a coordinator carousel is a stupid idea, in my opinion.  But I like being able to debate topics like this much more than most of the stuff on the boards.

MonkeyMan

October 29th, 2013 at 5:48 PM ^

I agree, the OP's question was fair. Do people only want cheerleading? If hoke can't find a way to win a big one on the road with the talent he has, then he is not as good a HC as many here hope he is. This is his mid-term exam.

Space Coyote

October 29th, 2013 at 9:33 AM ^

It's written between the lines in a lot of threads. That said, and while I feel it here as well with even asking the question, I do feel like it's a fair question to ask to some degree. At least, from my point of view, the OP isn't just blindly crapping on the coaching staff like many have been doing here lately. It seems like a legit question that the OP wants to know how others feel if a hypothetical happens.

ijohnb

October 29th, 2013 at 9:46 AM ^

just think people are tired of the negativistic approach to things right now.  Like, I don't think he would have got negged if he would have asked "When we beat Michigan State will your confidence in were the program is headed be confirmed or restored?"  I think a lot of people are just done talking about State with trepdiation.  In that way, the post was a "negative post" that I think many people thought essentially negged itself.

Space Coyote

October 29th, 2013 at 9:50 AM ^

I guess I'm just looking at it from a relative standpoint compared to recent posts. It's negative, but at least it isn't negative to an insulting degree. I'm just glad I didn't read "When Hoke loses because he's fat and Borges gets stuffed for trying to run the ball 50 times and he's an idiot and far and arrogant, then can we talk about firing this coaching staff?", because honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see that posted here as of late.

1464

October 29th, 2013 at 9:55 AM ^

I think it's just human nature.  Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.  Also, asking "would a win restore or strengthen your confidence" is a completely separate question.  It indicates that faith has already been lost or is waning.  The way he phrased it makes it more optimistic in my opinion.

 

Hello_Heisman

October 29th, 2013 at 10:14 AM ^

I get that Hoke is still building the program back to where he wants it to be, but this team has enough talent that it shouldn't get a free pass to lose every big road game for 3 years.  As others have pointed out, MSU's team is not comprised of mostly 4 and 5 star recruits, yet they are still winning.  And it's not like they were a consensus favorite to be the best team in the B1G this year a la Ohio.  They had a huge question mark at the QB spot, had to replace LeVeon Bell at RB with no clear successor, had a bunch of unproven receivers who couldn't catch anything last year and had to replace a couple key starters on D. 

I don't think Michigan's at the point where they can beat a team like Alabama yet and that's ok.  But asking them to gut out a tough road win in East Lansing in Year 3 of the Hoke era with the existing talent on this team is not an unreasonable request. 

With the schedule and talent Michigan has, I felt that coming into the season they should go either 9-3 or 10-2, depending on the outcome of the Ohio game.  Anything less than that would be a step backwards, in my opinion.  This is a critical game in terms of meeting that expectation.  At some point, this team needs to be able to recover from a punch in the mouth on the road against a good team and fight back to win.  If Michigan doesn't win this game, it will absolutely give me pause when I think about the potential progress this team is making under Hoke, Borges and Mattison.

 

Reader71

October 29th, 2013 at 12:58 PM ^

The only people who are sure we will lose on Saturday are those that have already given up on the program. I don't think its unreasonable to win in EL, because I think we will win. But I also have adult-level emotional control, so while I will be disappointed (I may even use curse words, natch), my belief in a program that has gone 25-8 after seeing the previous program go 15-22 will not be shaken.

AriGold

October 29th, 2013 at 9:05 AM ^

it will change my faith in Hoke so long as the loss is very competitive and we don't get stuffed with up the middle runs that don't work and abandon the pass altogether...but win or lose, I will not judge Hoke until after year 4...and at that time if we aren't a solid 10 win team with him going at least 2-2 against MSU and OSU, then I would start to worry about the direction of the program

bluesalt

October 29th, 2013 at 9:05 AM ^

Do we lose a close one? Did the refs only call one penalty on Staee? Is it terrible weather? Do we lose 63-0? If we lose 63-0, my opinion will change. Otherwise, not so much, since my expectation this year was 9-3, losing to Ohio, and losing two road games. But again, how we play matters. Coming off a bye week, I'd hope we don't look unprepared. That will disappoint me.

wayneandgarth

October 29th, 2013 at 9:06 AM ^

More than anything it is just one game.  Unless they are blown out (never in the game and physically dominated and intimidated) I will still have a wait and see attitude.  If they lose, I think you need to see if they can bounce back with three wins leading up to The Game; that would be encouraging. 

Now if they win on the road in a hostile environment, that will be a nice step forward.  A very nice step. 

TheDirtyD

October 29th, 2013 at 12:34 PM ^

and I am. Ask Alabama how hard it is to win titles. They seem to do a decent job at that. I want to be better than them. If you seriously think that going 9-3 10-2 is good enough than perhaps you should be a Clemson fan. It's been way too long since we have seen Michigan be Michigan. Carr couldn't maintain, rich rod never got off the ground, hoke so far has been on the decline since the end of season 1.

Sten Carlson

October 29th, 2013 at 1:12 PM ^

Ask Alabama how much easier it is to win titles when they got five full recruiting classes every four years and the minimum entrance requirements.

That aside, you made a point that I think actually disproves your contention.  You state that "Carr couldn't maintain..."  This, IMO, should be something that the Michigan fanbase gives the significance that it is due in relation to state of the program today.

Long term college footbal success, IMO, is built on a foundation of continuity, recruiting, facilities, and of course a high winning percentage.  Michigan at the end of the Carr era was suffering from a deep infection festering inside the program.  The facilities was woefully outdated and in need of renovation, and recruiting (see 2005) had slipped in large part due to Tressel in OSU.  The facade was still there, and from the outside all appeared ok.  But, then we all were witness to the debacle that eventually brought RR to Ann Arbor.  The details of that event have been laid out, but it seems to me that Michigan on the inside wasn't what the fans saw (or wanted to see) on the outside.  RR exposed a lot of this infection.  He told us that he had a severe lack of scholarship athletes (again, see 2005), that S&C were outdated, and not to expect a great deal.

What does all this have to do with today? 

As I look at it, when Hoke took over Michigan was in an only slightly better position that it was in 2008 when RR took over from Carr.  There was still a scholarship deficit, but the facilities were being renovated and upgraded, but, RR kind of forgot that he needed to recruit OLinemen.  So here we are today.

Remember continuity?  Well, Michigan lost it and teams like Alabama, OSU, and Oregon didn't -- even when they had coaching changes.  When you lose your foundation, you MUST rebuild it.  You cannot just start building a structure on top of a crumbling foundation. 

IMO, that is what Hoke is doing, and more importantly, that is what Brandon has mandated he do.  Short term pain for long term gain.  Remember, Michigan has been playing football for 134 years.  Brandon and Hoke want to bring Michigan football back to national contention, and they both understand that to do that, there MUST be continuity and a slow steady approach to player development.

Everything you need to know about what is going on with the Michigan program can be found in looking at the roster, and the rosters going back to about 2005.

pescadero

October 29th, 2013 at 2:52 PM ^

"Long term college footbal success, IMO, is built on a foundation of continuity, recruiting, facilities, and of course a high winning percentage."

 

...and it often seems to be something that goes AGAINST winning national championships. A bit of a dichotomy.

 

Sometimes you have to choose whether you want to be the 1990's Buffalo Bills or the 1990's Washington Redskins.

 

 

jbibiza

October 29th, 2013 at 9:09 AM ^

If we play well, and Borges calls an intelligent game, but we still get beat by a pretty good MSU team ... playing what is THE GAME for them ... at home - then No.

Howevah - If Borges goes all reptile brain and has us at 2 and 12 all day, and/or we come up with nothing innovative to surprise them... and we lose... and Hoke makes no changes at the end of the season then... yeah my confidence will be shaken (but not stirred to point of despair).

Soulfire21

October 29th, 2013 at 9:10 AM ^

While there are some things I am quite displeased with, we have to realize that Hoke's current recruits are only sophomores.  2011 was a nice Cinderella-type season, and maybe through my maize-colored glasses I was thinking more, but the rebuild (and conversion from spread to pro-style) really started last year.

If there wasn't a complete style change, then I'd be more frustrated than I already am, but it's simply not fair to hire coaches and then not let them get "their guys" to upperclassmen before the griping and calling for his head starts.

Don

October 29th, 2013 at 9:17 AM ^

I was a Hoke supporter before the season started, and I had us going 9-3 including losses to MSU and OSU this season, so there's no reason for me to change my view after losing up in EL. I think he needs at least the '14 season before I start making conclusive judgements about whether he's going to make it or not.

No head coach, especially one who's more of a program manager than someone who's directly involved in game-time direction and decisions, is any better than his assistant coaches. It's not unreasonable to have reservations about some of his staff at this point, and Hoke's success is exactly tied to how he hires, assembles, and manages his assistants. If he doesn't maintain a staff that's stronger overall than his predecessor, he won't be successful in the long-term.

Getting back to the MSU game, I guess what would impact my view is how the game goes. If we get blown out in embarrassing fashion, that would certainly not be encouraging.