It's all about what happens in March.
Hypo: Burke leaves. Where does he rank in a list of M's all time greats?
It impacts it, sure. But much of his legacy has already been solidified, I think.
Certainly, he's been one of the best, say, five point guards ever to play here, right? He's likely in the Rickey Green/Rumeal Robinson/Gary Grant tier of the pantheon even if we lose by 100 in the first round. At least that's what I'd posit. Now you try.
It's all about what happens in APRIL.
I'm pretty sure UM has never had a PG that will have as nice of an NBA career as Trey.
I hope you're right, but given that Gary Grant was a first round pick who stuck in the league for about 10 years, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion.
Rickey Green also had a 15-year NBA career, making the All-Star Game once.
Ill get back to you in march
March of next year? Or are you still stuck in February?
It's getting pretty hard to come up with a permutation of events where Burke doesn't end the year as an All-American. If you don't want to go too deep into hypo. pound-for-pound comparisons, that puts him in pretty august company.
So far all he has done in post season is lose to Ohio (the real Ohio) in first round. That being said he is best PG I have seen at Michigan since Rose, and is the best true PG I can remember. He stepped up today with some key defensive stops...and I can't wait to see what he is going to do in the tourney.
"One month too early?" Burke is producing the best legitimate season Michigan has had since the 1989 NCAA Champions. The game has changed; as college fans, we don't get three or four years out of our stars anymore. This produces a celiing: NBA-ready players leave.
I think Burke is as good as any PG I have seen in a Michigan uniform, and I started watching in the Cazzie Russell era.
This raises some questions, though. What if players were allowed to take money from boosters, like a computer science major on scholarship would be able to? Under the current system, Burke has to leave, or throw away the possibility of signing a contract for more money than many grads will make in their entire lives.
But what if a bunch of rich boosters could put a lot of money into the "pot" for a player like Burke? At what point would it no longer be mandatory that he leave?
Best since Jalen
D Mo's single-season assist record, so. . . these things can be sifted in different ways. I remember when Darius was beating MSU and shouting "our house!" and we were all saying no one would ever forget it. . .
But yeah, I will never forget those steals yesterday as long as I live. As far as iconic PLAYS go, that's right there with anything for me. Some of those incredibly graceful hesitation plays where he sends the whole opposing team off in the other direction are also breathtaking in their simplicity and efficacy. . .
Keep in mind, Morris played in 35 games in 2010-11 while Burke has played in 29. Burke's assist average is higher than Morris's, and his scoring average is too. He's also been a better defender.
Statistically, he's in rarified air. However, I have to wait until both the BTT and the NCAA Tourney to see. Players that get as many minutes as he does have been shown to peter out when it matters. His playing time has only increased as we've gotten further into B1G conference play.
All that said, I fully expect him to leave after this year and we should enjoy every single game he plays in a Michigan uniform until that day. He is (dare I say) a once in a decade player. Nobody should be expecting a second year Spike, first year Derrick Walton, or even possibly a second year Caris Levert to come close to filling his shoes.
As many have noted, this is premature. But here are those who will rank ahead of him:
Then you have several who were maybe as good:
In my mind he's ahead of all on the maybe list but Grant. Unless we make a helluva run, I see him no higher than 11th.
was a favorite of mine. 1st round pick, 10 year career, all-star.
Forgot about Campy. He's top 15. Man, Johnny Orr is the most underrated coach in M history. Had he been coaching football, there would be statues of him.
Had a helluva run throughout the 1970s, then feels unloved, leaves to coach Iowa St. for more $$.
Man, Johnny Orr is the most underrated coach in M history.
True, and almost ridiculous that we even have to talk about him as an underrated coach. He's got more wins than any coach in the history of our basketball program, right? Big Ten Coach of the Year '74, National Coach of the Year '76. Underrated and vastly underappreciated.
Where does Mike McGee belong on your list? He's our second leading scorer all-time without the benefit of the 3 point line. I vaguely remember Hubbard. McGee was the first UofM basketball star that I followed, so I'm a little biased.
If he wins the Wooden Award, that would be sufficient to enshrine him IMO.
Too early to have this conversation. There is more work to be done. I am still drunk and celebrating. Go Blue!!
He's the best point guard ever to play at Michigan.
Agreed -- I can't think of anyone better at *that* position (PG). (Too young to remember Ricky Green ...) Burke covers all the categories at least pretty well.
* Gary Grant was a great athlete and defender, but he was inconsistent offensively (particularly from the outside).
* Rumeal was a good spot-up shooter and could drive to the basket well. Not much to complain about with him, although I think Trey is a better ball handler and shot creator.
* IMO the Fab Five didn't have a PG. Jalen was more of a point forward.
* I viewed Louis Bullock as more of an undersized shooting guard.
* We didn't get to see much of Kevin Gaines.
* I liked Darius Morris, but he couldn't score as well as Trey.
Who else is there? I might be missing someone.
" Gary Grant was a great athlete and defender, but he was inconsistent offensively (particularly from the outside)."
This was my recollection too but on second iteration and looking at the stats our recollection doesn't bear it out his jr/sr year - guy shot over 50% from the guard position. If it came from outside or driving who cares - Trey got most of his points yesterday driving the lane.
I don't know if you would classify Joubert as a PG or a 2-guard, but I thought he was pretty awesome when I was eleven years old. Great nickname too (The Judge).
Because of the flameouts he had in the tourney. But Grant's regular season numbers in '86-'87 and '87-88 were fantastic. Over 21 ppg both seasons. 80 steals. Nearly 7 apg his senior year.
Yeah, his turnovers were a bit high, but back then Michigan pushed tempo and didn't stress taking care of the basketball the way they do now.
It's hard to compare because we only get to see 2 years of Burke.
Good points on Grant. Didnt realize he was >20 ppts jr and sr season WHILE shooting over 50% from the field and look at that 3 pt %.
MIN FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG TPG BPG SPG PPG 84-85 Michigan 31.7 55.0 81.7 2.5 4.7 2.7 0.1 1.7 12.9 85-86 Michigan 30.6 49.4 74.4 3.2 5.6 2.9 0.3 2.5 12.2 86-87 Michigan 34.0 53.7 48.5 78.2 5.0 5.4 3.2 0.3 2.7 22.4 87-88 Michigan 35.0 53.0 44.4 80.8 3.4 6.9 4.4 0.1 2.4 21.1
When looking at 3-point numbers from older Michigan players, it's good to remember that the line has moved back a foot the past 4 years. Although with grant its more interesting, since the 3 point shot didn't exist at all until his junior year.
I was too young to have seen him play. The first Michigan games I remember watching were the 1989 final four..
LOL. Literally was going to start identical thread last nite but decided to wait til this morning. Guess 6:20 AM is too late. Nice.
I'm too young to know the Cazzie Russell era other than some old highlights but in the modern era I can only think of Chris Webber, Gary Grant, and Glen Rice as dominant at their position for "a season" - Glen was a late bloomer though and Grant did it his sr and yr years so only Webber and Burke did it like this in their first two years. Still give advantage to C-Webb for taking his team to deep runs in the tournament but he probably had more talent around him as well. But top 4-5 in the "modern" era (post 1970) for A SEASON. Other guys had longer careers - I assume he is leaving after this year so he cannot add to his legacy so some of the guys others have mentioned.
Next group for me is Juwan, Jalen, Rumeal, and Roy Tarpley. They obviously had better post seasons and longer bodies of work. But for one season, again dominating every night while running the most important position in the sport, Burke is the man. The way I think about it is to reverse engineer as well - take Burke off this team and its lucky to play 500 ball in the Big 10 and probably has the typical 15-13 type record. Take Juwan off his team, or Tarpley off his team and they drop some wins but dont go from "top 5" to .500 team.
I hate this argument. If you switch Juwan and Trey it's the same deal. Juwan would make this team just as good as they are now without Trey and if you take him off, then it'd be a .500 team. The thing with the Fab Five is that they were so ridiculously talented and deep that it wasn't even fair. So yes, your point it true to a degree. You could put any top 10-15 Michigan player on this team and say the exact same thing about what would happen if you take them away.
And you're wrong about Roy Tarpley. Very, very wrong in fact. If you take him away, that team for sure becomes more of a .500 team than a top 5. If you look at this team and that one, they're a lot alike. What makes you think that team makes up for the lack of Roy better than this one for the lack of Burke? Roy actually averaged more ppg than Burke and 10 rebounds. In fact this team is better without Burke than Roy's Michigan squad without him.
Tim Hardaway right now has more than 100 points more than the second best player on the 84-85 team, and there's still games to be played. He's also averaging better percentages than the second best guy on that squad who was Antoine Loubert. Robinson and Nik will finish right about where Grant and Rellford did. Mitch is already stastitically right where Wade finished. So I don't see where you're getting this idea that Burke means so much more to Michigan than Roy did to his team. I think it's actually pretty even and without Burke we might have seen GRIII be more assertive on offense. Now, I do believe Burke is one of the best to play at Michigan. But, your argument just doesn't stand.
I am older than a lot of you; not old enough to remember Cazzie by a long stretch.
But Burke is probably the best point guard in Michigan history. And a top 10 all time player. Hell, could you imagine if this was the old days, and he stayed for four years, how good he could be?
Now, whether Burke is top 5 all time, and the next five, really depends on how the tournament goes. That is where GOAT make their mark.
too me it depends a little more on where he takes this team in the tourney. Right now he is a "really great" michigan player to me
He'll be number 1. Two NCAA championships, two player of the year awards, best pg ever.
/I'm assuming we win it all and he comes back because he wants a chance to defend the title. Yes, I realize this is unlikely at best.
He's going on "The Wall" in my house of Michigan greats.
He did something Glen Rice, Sean Higgins, Rumeal Robinson, The Fab Five, Robert Traylor, Lou Bullock etc. couldn't do. Lead Michigan to a B1G Championship.
Think about that for a second. Not even arguably the two best teams in program history (1988-89 & 1992-93), that produced multiple NBA stars could win one.
Plus, MOST LIKELY, he will only be here for two seasons. Who was the last Michigan player to score over 1,000 points in 2 seasons? Mr. Webber.
He's not leaving till after next year.
I'm not sure about where he ranks, I just know I'm going to miss seeing him in a Michigan uniform.
Apparently I will miss him so much I had to post twice about it.
and at 6' 3" its possible to conjecture that his 13-year NBA career was more distinguished than Trey's will be, although Trey may continue to surprise.
Right now he has a 1st round loss on his resume. That's not going to cut it.
Hang a Final Four banner and we're talking. Lead us to a Championship and I'm not going to argue against it.
...that are Burke-related. I went through the stats archive on MGoBlue and search the top 40 players (arbitrary cutoff admittedly) in various statistics. Here are some of the places where Trey appears:
|STATISTIC||TREY'S CAREER RANK (TO DATE)|
|Assists / Game||3|
|Points Per Game||17|
Here is another interesting fact, if we're going to judge in part by the impact he has on the team now and how much he has meant in the last two seasons. Michigan has scored 4,442 points since Burke's arrival, good for an average for 70.5 points per game over two seasons. Without Burke's 1,052 points (23.6% of the total), the team average falls to 53.8 points per game.
Given that he will likely spend only two seasons here, looking at this and other stats in comparison to other point guards in Michigan's past, I have to agree with others in that he's on track to rank among the best. A solid performance this month in the Big Ten Tournament as well as the NCAA Tournament would help cement that legacy too.
holding out hope that Lewan gets to him and convinced him to stay? (*sniff**sniff*-wipes tears knowingly...)
I can't believe how lucky we are to have Trey and Denard playing at the same time.
We don't know his place yet. There are way too many games yet to play. Win the two games this week, win the Big 10 Championship, get to the Final Four at a minimum and his legacy will be secure. Less than that, and Burke will be one of many good players to come to Michigan.
As an example, Glen Rice's reputation was made by the championship. Sadly, Webber's was made both by the lack of a championship, and . . . other issues.
Why is getting to the final four good enough for Burke but getting to the final GAME twice not good enough for C Webb. I realize the off the court issues but if we are talking about playing ability and taking his team through the tourney, its pretty impossible to beat C Webb short of the guys who won it all. He had 10 NCAA wins (out of 12) in 2 years. So I dont think his reptuation was sullied by the "lack of championship".
They did have a lack of Big 10 championship but their sophmore year they had three big 10 losses, with two coming to champion Indiana - both by 1 point.
Hahaha, I was wondering how long it would take for denard to sneak in. There is a huge difference in denard and trey, please let's give trey the credit he deserves without denard somehow getting credit.
Trey is great, I don't know where he ranks, but he is the best player in college basketball, that's a big deal. He is among the top tier players to ever play here.
Born in 89, but he is the best player I have witnessed and can actually clearly recall. But he is definitely outside the top 5 and unless he leads us to a national title or comes back for another year, I'd imagine he'll sit somewhere in the 8-12 range. JMO
As far as PG go, I'd say he is behind Grant and Jalen (who I am going to classify as a PG), but I think you could make an argument vs Rumeal, The Judge, and Green.
Played the 2 mostly with The General at point. I wouldn't put him on the list regardless. Jalen, Grant, And Robinson are the best I personally watched. Hard to compare as Burke will only be a 2 year player.
Reading this thread I am surprised at the perception and consideration of the Big 10 tournament as a marker on a career. It means little to nothing to me. So if a Iowa or Minnesota wins 3-4 games in early March to take the "Big 10 Tourney Title" that cements its top player as having a great legacy? Versus what they did in the months long slog of the regular season? MSU regularly bombs in the Big 10 tournament and goes for long runs in the NCAAs ....which is all that matters. I'd take 1 regular season Big 10 championships to 25 Big 10 tourney wins since it all it tells you is how you did in a week's worth of games. A crapshoot.
He scored more, had more assists, shot a higher percentage, and had a ton more steals.
Rose obviously had much more success in the NCAA tournament. Grant had one good personal year (86-87) but even his triple-double against North Carolina (24 pts, 10 assists, 10 rebounds) wasn't enough to get the win.
Then again, Rose might have scored more had he not played with such beasts like Webber and Howard.
without researching, has Michigan ever had a basketball National Player of the year?
In 1966. Also won 3 Big Ten Championships and played in two Final Fours (and one championship game).
We have a winner. Case closed.
You can add; Big Ten player of the Year (superfluous, to national player of the year), and first pick overall in the 1966 NBA draft. The number I particularly like is 30.8 points a game, before the 3-point era. And Cazzie earned an NBA championship ring with the Knicks in 1970.
Incomparable. We live in the House that Cazzie Built.
None of which would have happened if Cazzie had departed school in 1965, as say a second round NBA pick.
Oh, we'd have gotten a new multipurpose indoor arena in any event. Of course Cazzie didn't "build" the arena. Yost could no longer properly host basketball and everything else. And we could more accurately say that Fritz Crisler really built the house that bears his name. But no one doubts the meaning of "the house that Cazzie built."
Mike McGee was the man and led the team in scoring for 4 years. Pretty sure he was also a first round draft choice. For those who have questions about Gary Grant's impact, I remember guys wearing "Grant is God" t-shirts around the dorm when he was a freshman. Time also makes it hard to recall how good certain guys were, but Ricky Green (still the fastest guy I"ve ever seen play) has to be in the conversaiton. Phil Hubbard also helped take the team (with Green) to the championship game and made the Olympic team as a freshman. Burke, however, certainly rates as one of the best.
I was flipping between OKC vs. LAC yesterday, but I didn't hear a Jared Sullinger reference...hopefully he's risen above "that guy" label.
This year's Michigan team is easily top 10 in the country. How many wins do you guys think we'd have this year without Trey?
He'll probably go down somewhere in the 8-15 range when it's all said and done. Michigan has had some amazing past players.
Interesting. Burke is a possible POY winner. If he wins, are we saying he isn't as good as past PGs? That would be an odd statement, though still possible.
As a point gaurd, I think the only competition he has is Gary Grant and Jalen Rose. However, if we are talking one year comparisons, it goes to Burke. Unless Burke takes us to at least the Final Four, then he would be 3rd on that list.