How good are our linebackers?
On WTKA Monday morning, Andy Mignery and Marcus Ray were agreeing how poorly the linebackers played.Mignery said they had been swallowed up by Ohio's O-line, and Marcus said something that really surprised me - how Hoke and Company needed to go out and recruit some that are athletic enough to compete at a higher level.
I was under the impression we have a pretty good group of young linebackers. Thoughts?
December 4th, 2013 at 5:42 PM ^
I think we've gone after our fair share, they just didn't show interest back or commit. It's hard to blame them with UF, FSU, Bama, LSU, Georgia, etc. all in the south. We offered Levenberry, O'Daniel, Hutchings, and Jaylon Smith in the '13 class, and Yeargin, Swain, Williams, etc. in the '14 class. So, I think the offers are going out, the kids just aren't showing commiting just yet. But, I think the midwest has enough LB talent, but right now we're splitting them with PSU, OSU, MSU, etc. If we got the lions share I'm sure we'd be fine. But, each year under Hoke the rankings of our recruits seems to be trending upward. As we hopefully get more on-field success we can land more top kids versus just a 4-star regional kid.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:54 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:04 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:59 PM ^
I'm incredibly disappointed in RJS lack of development. He seemed to have it all. Nose for the ball, frame to add bulk, athleticism but he was passed by Bolden, which I can understand cause he was an EE but then Ross as well which was interesting. He's the all-rounder type I think the WTKA guys are talking about but he's not developing.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:08 PM ^
I think his "nose for the ball" isn't as good as Ross's or Bolden's. I'm not sure what gave you that impression, but Jenkins-Stone was known for his aggressive nature and athleticism in high school, not his instincts.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:18 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:35 PM ^
M's pass rush is average to slightly above average. It could get a lot worse.
December 4th, 2013 at 7:56 AM ^
We were 66th in sacks in the regular season, so that's middle of the pack.
And I don't think a 6'2", 225 lb. defensive end would do much good.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:39 PM ^
Ross' instincts are the best of all the LB's Michigan currently possess and maybe it was the aggressiveness combined with the quickness that made me think 'instincts' but still I'd rather have RJS being aggressive than Bolden, who strikes me as not passive but not 'forward', I guess, like Ross or Morgan are.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:15 PM ^
playing furman and avery. We could never get more than 7 in the box, often only had 6. We can to cover up the spread guys which left us very short on bodies near the ball.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:43 PM ^
It's been a nice run for Avery but I'll be glad when he is gone. Barring some kind of miracle we'll be better off if we can keep him on special teams next year.
December 4th, 2013 at 8:20 AM ^
December 4th, 2013 at 11:46 AM ^
I think the bigger issue was Josh Furman. Michigan basically played 10-on-11 when he was in the ballgame. Wilson will be back next season, obviously, but Furman is going to have to be relied on again unless an underclassman steps up.
This worries me slightly.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:30 PM ^
I don't know if our LBs are all-world, but the Ohio game is hardly representative of them.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:39 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:43 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:49 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:20 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:33 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:41 PM ^
1. How ridiculous is it to dog on the linebackers when the leading tackler is out for the game and replaced by a true freshman that had only seen limited time, and the LB who happens to be the best player on the team is 8 months removed from an ACL tear?
2. If the linebackers are getting swallowed up by the OL (which is four pretty good seniors and Tyler Decker), wouldn't that be an indictment of the DL, which was scrambling so bad due to lack of depth and size in the middle that Richard Ash saw his first meaningful snaps ever?
I suppose these guys generally know what they are talking about, but this is just plain BS.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:50 PM ^
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:56 PM ^
Hard to fault our LBs when Dl, without Pipkins, and safety play, sans Kovacs and sometime sans Gordon, SUCKED.
I have faith in GREG that he'll figure out the D-line issue and develop competent DL players.
Hopefully, Ross is our next David Harris
December 4th, 2013 at 12:05 AM ^
December 4th, 2013 at 12:12 AM ^
December 4th, 2013 at 10:36 AM ^
We had all Big 10 type players at all 3 levels in the past... they all helped each other.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:31 AM ^
December 4th, 2013 at 11:51 AM ^
Larry Foote's sophomore year: 4 starts, 29 tackles (11th on team), 7 TFL's, 3 sacks, 1 interception
James Ross's sophomore year: 8 starts, 81 tackles (1st on team), 5 TFL's, 1.5 sacks
Considering Foote was playing behind Rob Renes, Josh Williams, Eric Wilson, James Hall - none of whom were superstars but are probably better than what we have on the DL now - I don't think you have a lot of proof for your conclusion.
December 4th, 2013 at 5:50 PM ^
Yeah, I'm no football coach and Foote has had a long NFL career, but my impression of him is a tough motor guy that plays above his ability. Plus he's 6'1". While Ross isn't as tall, if I'm just watching the two play Ross passes the eye test. He appears the faster and more athletic of the two. I like my chances with Ross as he gets older assuming he stays healthy.
December 4th, 2013 at 6:08 PM ^
Ross is listed at 6'1", 220 lbs. Foote was listed at 6'1", 211 lbs. as a sophomore.
December 5th, 2013 at 7:49 PM ^
I'm aware he's listed there, but I think general consensus is that he's more like 5'11", no? I know D-Rob was listed at 6'0", but measured 5'10" at the combine for example. I see Ross more in the mold of a Denicos Allen. From seeing the two on TV (R0ss and Foote) Ross looks more muscular, but shorter, but that's just me.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:35 AM ^
Interesting point. And I agree the standard has been lowered (at quite a few positions) that people forget what Carr was doing. God bless Dileo but on a team from 15 years ago he wouldnt be seeing the field...now he was our #2 option at WR until Funchess was moved. Same at a lot of other positions - the lack of NFL talent is pretty damning across the board. I think on a typical UM defense you used to get 5-6 starters drafted with 2 in the top 3 rounds in any year, and another 2-3 would get a sniff as a UDFA. On this defense other than JMFR I dont see another upperclassmen who will get drafted. Maybe Taylor or Clark will get a sniff or Gordon at safety but those are late round picks if at all.
Bottom line the NFL type talent level now is not the same as even late Carr era...
December 4th, 2013 at 12:02 PM ^
I dont know if that's true about UM defensive players and the draft. In the 13 drafts from 1996-2008, Michigan had 19 defenders chosen and in nine of those drafts it was just 1 or 0 UM players on D being picked. In 13 years, there were 8 guys picked in either Round 1 or Round 2. That's pretty good, but it's hardly spaced out. Half of those guys were selected in the 2007 draft off that killer 2006 D. Only 4 of those 13 drafts involved a UM defender being picked higher than the 3rd Round, with three of those just being 1 player. If you include drafts with a UM player picked higher than the 4rth Round, you only add one more draft. Michigan had a TON of players picked during this stretch, but a vast majority were on offense. Other than the 2000 draft (Gold, Williams, Dhani, Renes) and the 2007 draft (Hall, Branch, Woodley, Harris and Prescott) most draft days went by without much say from the UM Defense
December 4th, 2013 at 4:15 AM ^
...yet. Aside from JMFR, they are all young and undersized, take poor angles, and often can not shed blocks. I re-watched some of the OSU game, and Bolden got held so many times on critical plays, right in front of the umpire. I couldn't believe he didn't call holding. I honestly started to think B1G conspiracy theory, wanting Ohio to play in the MNCG. I know that's silly, but the ref was looking right at Buckeye linemen holding play after play, and not calling anything.
Taking my tin-foil hat off for a minute, I think our linebackers are too small, some are not all that athletic (Morgan), and often times Bolden and Ross take poor angles, leading to them getting caught up in the scrum while flowing backside pursuit. Part of the problem is our lack of big, space eating D-linemen. If we had some real big nasty D-linemen that required double teams, that would prevent the opposing teams O-Line from getting to the second level and blocking our linebackers.
One last thing- I was actually pleasantly surprised with how well Ben Gedeon played last Saturday.
December 4th, 2013 at 8:53 AM ^
December 4th, 2013 at 9:11 AM ^
Better in the next 2 years as our experience and depth is built back. The linebacker recruiting under RR was horrible.
December 4th, 2013 at 9:11 AM ^
I think the LBs have been very poor in coverage all year. (How many times was a guy open in the seam because the LB didn't ride his man through the zone?)
I think the LBs played very poorly in the Iowa game (Yes, the second string).
I think the DL was horrible in the Ohio game and the LBs had no chance.
Other than that I think they are a very solid unit, very rarely making a mistake in the running game. But they also very rarely made a game-changing play. It was a group that desperately needed last years world destroying Jake Ryan.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:11 AM ^
JMFR and Ross are the 2 playmakers. JMFR was not JMFR - he showed some flashes early at Iowa and OSU but at those games went by he faded. Understandable. Ross was hurt for OSU and is probably 10-15 lbs underweight. He has the speed... he lacks the size....that said Denicos Allen is smaller than Ross and a terror so Ross can do it. He is 2 years younger than Allen...we forget he is still a sophomore.
That is all we have in terms of big time LBs IMO from what I can see right now. Gedeon showed some nice flashes vs OSU and is our 2nd biggest LB from the eye test as a freshman so he could be something special.
Bolden is meh to me, and Morgan is a nice player - a 7 out of 10 MLB. His wisdom will increase even more next year as the QB of the defense but athletic wise he is not SEC level IMO.
Cam and Beyer are nice rotational players. Beyer sparked against opponents UM was better than on paper, which is expected but was moved around a lot and is again a nice rotational player. Whe facing players of his strength size in Big 10 Beyer began to have less impact. Cam I always thought was about to break out but never seemed to.
The relatively porous DL also hurts the LBs who have to deal with guys who MSU and Iowa for example keep off their LBs to make plays.
If Gedeon makes it into the 4th spot of the rotation next year I am actually quite high on that starting 3 + 1 next year. Ross will be a junior and I hope his body can find the ability to take o 10 lbs of mass - he did not grow at all from fr to soph so maybe he just doesnt have the frame. JMFR will be healthy. Morgan wiser. And hopefully Gedeon takes that big step. After that it's a bit of unknown and/or Bolden.
I do think we need better athletes throughout the defense.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:37 AM ^
I think we HAVE better athletes on the defense, they're just young and undeveloped. Also, from what I understand about LB play, much of their performance is tied to the play of the DL. If the DL is able to tie up the opposing OL and keep them off the LB's, the LB's a much more productive. Against teams with good OL's, like OSU, the LB's get "swallowed up" (as Ray said) by a very experienced OL.
I think our LB corp is good, I just think that we don't have a guy on the DL that commands a double team and can keep his guy(s) off the LB's.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:47 AM ^
Linebackers can't lineback (LOL) if they're swallowing the backs of the DL.
December 4th, 2013 at 12:50 PM ^
Why do we put more value on what these guys say? Because they are former players? That really doesnt qualify as expertise. Dont forget former player Jalen Rose likes to say UM Hoops is back because our recruiting is now focused on Detroit. This just smacks of not needed player assassination
December 4th, 2013 at 1:19 PM ^
Ben Gedeon was right up there with Delano Hill as two of my favorite recruits last year. But Gedeon did not play well against OSU. He was a huge problem out there defensively.
As far as the LBing unit goes, any one who thinks this unit was decent doesn't know what good LB play looks like. They were a sub par unit all year.
December 4th, 2013 at 1:21 PM ^
DE and CB were the best units on this squad defensively this year. S, DT, and LB were the weak spots.
December 4th, 2013 at 1:44 PM ^
We basically had one good defensive end, and that was Frank Clark. Heitzman didn't do anything, Beyer was only a part-time DE (and not a very productive one). I don't really know why you would point to that position as a strength and then say the linebackers weren't.
December 4th, 2013 at 2:21 PM ^
Simple, a position that only has two bodies on the field at a time one of them was solid. That is 50%.
When Michigan had 3 LB's on the field this year not one of them was solid, and that includes Jake Ryan who really lacked his lateral, and quick twitch explosiveness coming back from the injury. The LB's weren't a position of strength this year what so much ever.
December 4th, 2013 at 3:09 PM ^
Interesting. Does that account for the first couple games and Ohio State when Clark did nothing? Or the Akron, Penn State, and Northwestern games, when Ross had 33 tackles, 3 tackles for loss, 1 sack, 1 pass brekaup, and 1 fumble forced?
December 4th, 2013 at 7:56 PM ^
Hmmm, a guy that coaches football who is a stat's watcher. Not good...
December 4th, 2013 at 9:10 PM ^
As opposed to someone who doesn't coach football using the eye test to tell us that 50% of our DE's who were on the field were solid this year while completely ignoring Magnus' point about Clark doing nothing in certain games?
I feel like you would be a good spokesman for Sex Panther. It's got real bits of panther in it.
December 5th, 2013 at 12:34 AM ^
So are you trying to tell me that our LB's, heck one of them out of the 5 that played this year was better than Frank Clark this year? I almost want to be a dick to you, but I won't.
It doesn't take much to be bettter then what that unit brought this year, but Frank Clark by him self was far and away much better. Heitlzmen and the likes played right on par with the LB unit. And then when you factor in Clark's play it wasn't close.
And yes Magnus if he is indeed a football coach, which I believe to be true should never be using stats as an indicator of O or Dline play. Shame on him... Truth be told I don't think you'll understand what I'm getting at though.