"A House Divided" from Genuinely Sarcastic
http://genuinelysarcastic.blogspot.com/2010/01/house-divided_05.html
The above is a link to a post by The Other Brian, who runs the blog Genuinely Sarcastic. Half of it discusses the "Lloyd Carr's University of Michigan" comment by Braylon Edwards. The other half discusses Archie Collins, the "evil" coach from Detroit Southeastern.
Perhaps we don't know exactly how Archie Collins steers kids away from Michigan. But before we get pissed at Collins for what he does at Southeastern, shouldn't we look at our own "feeder" school?
The head coach at Cass Tech is Thomas Wilcher, a former running back at Michigan. Of the players from Cass Tech High School in recent years, not one with an MSU offer has chosen MSU. This goes back to Joseph Barksdale (LSU), Boubacar Cissoko (UM), William Campbell (UM), Thomas Gordon (UM), Teric Jones (who chose UM, although I'm not sure if he had an MSU offer), Dior Mathis (Oregon), and Daniel Easterly (Missouri). So while there are TWO (EDIT: three) guys (Fred Smith, Johnathan Hankins, EDIT: William Gholston) from Southeastern who were "steered away" from Michigan, I count SEVEN who have been "steered away" from MSU.
Now...I say "steered away" not because I'm accusing Wilcher of any wrongdoing, but simply because these players have chosen schools that aren't MSU. Perhaps Wilcher is extremely hands-off in recruiting and these kids choose Michigan, Oregon, Missouri, etc. of their own volition. But in the brouhaha over Michigan recruiting at Southeastern, this issue is rarely raised.
Why are we so eager to degrade Archie Collins and Ted Ginn (from Glennville High School in Ohio) for feeding kids to MSU and OSU, respectively, when we have a guy who's seemingly doing the same thing at Cass Tech?
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:04 AM ^
Ah, um,....because we are biased Michigan fans. This is a Michigan blog right? FWIW, we need more Thomas Wilchers.
January 24th, 2010 at 2:51 AM ^
If I were a Coach at a Major Pipeline school, I GUARANTEE you that I would steer my kids to U of M too. I want Michigan to succeed, so naturally I would steer them there. What's wrong with that?
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:04 AM ^
I have never jumped on Collins, because I know this goes on everywhere. Pretty much every major program has some high school that historically pumps players to them. All you can do is try to make sure you get in on the major high school programs.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:07 AM ^
i do it is because the messiah of MSU sports on 97.1 called out wilcher last year on signing day. if the MSM wants to call out michigan and its ties to a HS in the detroit area, and then ignore the ties that MSU has to a HS in the detroit area. then i'm going to make sure it is known when a state fan gets in my face over who recruits the state better...
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:09 AM ^
To the question of why "we" are so eager to degrade Archie Collins and Ted Ginn while giving a pass to our guy at Cass Tech; I believe it has to do with the perception that Michigan is a school most kids would kill to come to because of our academics, tradition, facilities, uniforms, etc. etc. Whereas Michigan St. is perceived by our side as a middle of the road university. So if a kid holds a Michigan offer and chooses not to come, then we ask ourselves: how come? He must have been influenced by someone else to steer him to another school. But when a kid holds a State Scholly and chooses not to go, then we all nod our heads and think: Yeah, I would have chosen -insert school- over Michigan State too. We assume the kid just made a smart decision.
Right or Wrong, I feel that is one reason for why our fans give the coaches at our feeder schools a pass over the coaches at Glennville and others.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:11 AM ^
Not real big into conspiracy theories and a lot of the accusations are based on anecdotal evidence that I haven't seen corroborated by other sources (if there are corroborating sources, it'd be great if someone would provide them).
However,
I'm not sure that it's the 1:1 comparison you're attempting to make. According to TOB, Collins has gone to extremes in steering students away from Michigan. I haven't heard anyone level those kind of accusations against Wilcher.
I don't think TOB is saying Collins is bad because he has student-athletes that don't go to Michigan, his charges deal with how and why they don't go to Michigan.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:12 AM ^
wilcher hasn't steered anyone towards michigan, i'd say teric and flash gordon being at michigan has a lot more to do with will campbell than it does thomas wilcher. in fact if wilcher were steering people towards michigan, joseph barksdale would be an OL wearing a winged helmet right now.
as for archie collins at MSU, he also steered will gholston away from UM. any time gholston would be getting ready to visit michigan he'd all of a sudden have a "mandatory basketball practice" (in the off-season mind you) or not be able to miss a football meeting. things he'd easily miss if he were visiting MSU. plus the guy literally drove fred smith to east lansing to see dantonio and izzo after the kid had committed to michigan.
the two situations aren't the same
January 26th, 2010 at 8:52 AM ^
if wilcher were steering people towards michigan, joseph barksdale would be an OL wearing a winged helmet right now.
Replace "wilcher" with "Collins", "michigan" with "Michigan State", "joeph barksdale" with "Jonathan Hankins" and "winged helmet" with "Spartan helmet", then try that on.
January 26th, 2010 at 9:18 AM ^
is too much work.
January 26th, 2010 at 11:31 AM ^
Once again (and I've mentioned this more than once), the logic you're using is flawed.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:13 AM ^
I'm pretty sure Cass Tech players decline offers from State because, well, State sucks. Wilcher doesn't really have to point that out - it's a well-known fact.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:19 AM ^
TOB has discussed this many a time. Collins takes it to another level. I don't think Wilcher is controlling in the same way.
I see your point, but HS coaches are coveted recruiting touch points for programs. RR's Florida connection and Carvin Johnson I assume are products of connections to the current Mich staff.
I don't think there is anything wrong until the interests of the players are circumvented. TOB has good info and has detailed multiple instances where this appears to be the case - with MSU and USC.
Feeder high schools are not evil to a point. Even Gholston is served, if he truly has a better home life with Collins ( I don't know the details there.) I have not heard of any behavior by Wilcher going over the top.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:26 AM ^
This is probably becoming relevant now because Southeastern has an elite prospect we really desire, William Gholston.
Isn't the coach at Detroit Renaissance also pissed at us for disciplining Carson Butler? Somewhere it was written that is why we're on the outside looking in with 2011 LB Lawrence Thomas.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:27 AM ^
Generally, MSU seems to pull more kids from Detroit. Whether that's because they concentrate on Detroit or simply because they don't have much pull beyond state lines, I think it's worth noting that playing at Michigan isn't automatically a bigger honor to everyone than playing at MSU. While some of these kids are noted as having grown up to be Michigan fans, probably just as many of them were Spartan fans as kids, too.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:38 AM ^
I would have to agree that playing for Michigan is not automatically a bigger honor. There are plenty of people who would consider it a higher honor to play for the Spartans than for us. I was not trying to justify whether anyone is steering students away from one school or another. Merely trying to answer the question: Why do we think the feeder schools for State engage in this activity but assume no such thing about the coaches at our own feeder schools.
January 23rd, 2010 at 6:18 PM ^
Generally, MSU seems to pull more kids from Detroit.
Huh? I don't think that's accurate at all. Detroit definitely has historically leaned in our direction.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:29 AM ^
Yes, Renaissance's coach dislikes us for the situations of Butler and Andre Criswell. That situation is addressed momentarily by The Other Brian's blog post.
But yes, I don't know how, but Gholston slipped my mind when I wrote the post. He would be the third guy from Southeastern.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:36 AM ^
Magnus - One quick question for you, Ill ask and immediately go back to my MGoBlog timeout......
Is there any historical evidence of the Renaissance coach actually steering kids to MSU? Or is he just upset about Butler and Criswell, and other schools will have a realistically equal shot at landing Thomas?
Thanks, and I apologize for whatever I did to piss you off.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:49 AM ^
There was a video a while back that featured an interview between Hondo from Sparty and the coach at Renaissance. Their coach is definitely bitter toward Michigan but I don't think that's evidence of wrong-doing. I was going to link to the video but the only copy I found brought up a virus warning from Avast. Can anyone else help with a link?
January 23rd, 2010 at 5:52 PM ^
Gooood motherfuckin' beer!
January 23rd, 2010 at 5:56 PM ^
be fuckin fat girls in no time!!!
January 23rd, 2010 at 12:17 PM ^
It's one thing to steer players toward a college with whom you have a past history and current interest (Wilcher), it's a another to fabricate stories and negative recruit against a college that you dislike (Collins).
Edit: A request to those who neg: perhaps a few lines about why you disagree? I don't have a problem with differing opinions, though I'm not sure that's the purpose of the point system, but I am curious.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:44 AM ^
I guess my question would be...
If we know so very much about how Archie Collins handles recruiting, why do we rarely, if ever, hear about how Wilcher handles recruiting? Has he ever had Cass Tech players living with him? Does he drive players to UM for recruiting trips, but perhaps not MSU?
To repeat, I'm not accusing Wilcher of anything. I don't want anyone to think that. I'm just trying to get a handle on the differences in perception.
P.S. Does anyone know if Kishon Wilcher is Thomas' son, nephew, etc.? I'm assuming it's his son.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:55 AM ^
he's much more hands off. if one of his players wants to go to UM, great, if not he'll help get to where they wanna go. i've never heard of him keeping a player from visiting MSU. he's never had any of his players live him as far as i know either. i honestly think that if he had a player that really wanted to go to MSU, he would help them achieve that goal. that's just not the case with archie collins and the staff at detroit SE.
January 23rd, 2010 at 9:38 PM ^
Yes Kishon is his son, not his nephew.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:47 AM ^
The Renaissance issue is also discussed in the GS post and has been mentioned by Brian before, IIRC.
MSU got Chris Norman and Mylan Hicks, and 2011 recruit Lawrence Thomas is going to be a tough get for us because he goes to Renaissance, too.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:56 AM ^
As a general trend, the Renaissance players don't even look at M. Any serious football player in the state of Michigan should at least consider M, but so many just say "I'm not interested." It could be that they grew up hating M, but often players are willing to keep an open mind b/c they want to have the most beneficial college football experience.
Many kids from Ohio grew up as OSU fans and still consider M, but this doesn't seem to be the case from the Renaissance players. Maybe they all just grew up hating M or none of them believe that M runs the right system for their style of play, but I tend to agree with TOB that something else is going on Renaissance (and not something good).
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:56 AM ^
Why didn't you just address Other Brian directly rather than this? And again, why don't you reply to a persons post directly instead of creating your own and using their handle as the title? ah so many questions.
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:59 AM ^
a) I wanted to get other poster's thoughts, not just The Other Brian's. He's not the only one who has insight, and I basically already know his feelings on the issue because he made a giant blog post about it.
b) I've explained this several times (I think I even explained it to you in particular the other day), but when I'm at work, the REPLY button doesn't work. I can only post on the main thread.
January 23rd, 2010 at 12:06 PM ^
gotcha, I probably came off as a dick. Sorry about that. I asked you the other day but I didn't log in for the rest of the day and forgot which thread I asked you on.
January 23rd, 2010 at 12:28 PM ^
How do you know that Archie Collins is negative recruiting or fabricating stories about Michigan? I haven't read anything about that. I mean, it's likely, but I don't think anybody on this thread or even The Other Brian has said much of anything about fabrications/negative recruiting.
Negative recruiting means the players are being told negative/untrue things about other schools, not simply that they're being steered away from other schools.
January 23rd, 2010 at 1:00 PM ^
I don't have any personal experience, so it's 100% hearsay; but, logic strongly suggests negative recruiting.
To me, negative recruiting is simply a tactic to steer players away from a particular school, which differs from the tactic of heavily promoting one's school of choice (and saying little or nothing about a school you dislike). It seems like Collins uses negative recruiting more often because his players tend to have zero interest in M. If he was simply heavily promoting MSU (as opposed to negative recruiting), I suspect his players would have some interest in Michigan, but they often don't, which is odd because it's not like M is a MAC conference school or anything and M is so easily accessible to his players. A second trend seems to be that his players have real interest and then all of a sudden have no interest (almost overnight).
When I think about this, I often think about political campaigns even though it's not a perfect analogy. During an election, the losing candidate almost always "goes negative" before the leading candidate. I kinda think of MSU/Collins as the losing candidate and M as the winning candidate (especially when a player has interest in M and then seemingly overnight loses all that interest).
I'll try to dig up some sources forming my hearsay.
Just my two pennies.
Edit: Also, I think this theory holds up well when you compare the interest in M and MSU from Cass Tech and Renn players overall. Cass Tech may not send many to MSU, but most seem to give MSU a shot. I don't think the Renn players give M the same chance. Of course, this is not dispositive, but it's strong enough evidence for me.
January 23rd, 2010 at 12:46 PM ^
I think most of them realize that Michigan is better in just about every way.
January 23rd, 2010 at 1:40 PM ^
looks like you've contracted a severe case of chitownblue.
January 23rd, 2010 at 2:09 PM ^
Ok, obviously, like most fans, I want all the great players out there to come to Michigan. But I want HS coaches who really are looking out for the best interest of their players. This includes, among other things:
1) The coaching philosophy (is a player suited for a school. Some guys just don't fit. We've talked about this ad nauseum with Mallet, for instance.)
2) The academics, and programs offered (this matters to some. Some guys don't care at all. Others want to go to a school where they can get a specific degree.)
3) The depth chart. (are they ready to play as a Freshman? Would a year or two of seasoning help? Would they ever see the field.)
4) Their skill level relative to the team. (It is bad for a player to be a half step behind, unless they are content on the bench.)
5) Their love for a particular school. (a few are really a fan of Michigan, or some other school.)
6) The integrity and honesty and style of a coaching staff. (If a HS coach has a sense that a college coach isn't looking out for his team, why would you want to send a player there?)
In a post a couple days ago on Ryan, the new LB commit, there was discussion on how Ignatius has sent kids to OSU, MSU, UofM, and many other D-1 teams. I think this is a sign of a good high school and a good coach. If kids from a particular HS NEVER go to a local major college, that's a sign that something is broken in some way.
January 23rd, 2010 at 5:10 PM ^
If Wilcher has steered any of his players either away from MSU or to UM, I haven't heard about it. And considering some of the watchdogs mascarading as media types in this state (especially from places like SpartanMag), I find it hard to believe something like that would go unmentioned. MSU wanted Thomas Gordon, Boubacar Cissoko, Will Campbell, and Dior Mathis. Mathis just liked Oregon more. If he had wanted to go to MSU, I have not heard anything that would suggest that Wilcher would've interfered. He didn't interfere when Vernon Gholston (people tend to forget that he's a Cass Tech alum) committed to Ohio State.
The difference is this: Thomas Gordon, Cissoko and Campbell grew up Michigan fans. When UM offered Gordon, his recruitment was over. MSU tried like hell to get in on Cissoko during the UM coaching change, but didn't get anywhere, because Cissoko loved Michigan. Campbell didn't give them the time of day. Those guys grew up UM fans - just like Fred Smith and Jonathan Hankins did.
I have a problem with any coach injecting his own interests and biases into his players' recruitments. I'm sure it's happened in Michigan's favor in the past; that doesn't make it right. Look at Quinton Washington's recruitment last year. His high school coach is a diehard South Carolina fan, and they were in a state where the pressure to stay home is tremendous - and Washington's coach didn't interfere. He let the kid make the decision that he felt the most comfortable with.
January 23rd, 2010 at 5:47 PM ^
There is a pot over there, and something is in it, should I stir it? Yes, I think I will...
January 23rd, 2010 at 9:24 PM ^
EDIT: posted in wrong board
January 26th, 2010 at 12:14 AM ^
If I could, I would move to Southeastern and become good at football and commit to Michigan just to shove it up that guy's ass
January 26th, 2010 at 8:57 AM ^
Again, there is no evidence that Collins "kidnapped" anyone, or anything. This is an apocryphal account ripped from recruiting message boards - no recruit has ever publicly accused Collins of doing anything, nor has any parent - this is the product of people reading into one kid's brother seeming upset when the kid switched from a Michigan lean to an MSU commit. That's it. It's a bunch of circumstancial nonsense strung together by a wishful narrative.
Is Collins pro-MSU? Probably - he played there. I'll buy that.