For those who are calling for Rich Rod's head and are declaring the press conference yesterday the "last straw"- do any of you really, truly, honestly believe that the exact same things weren't happening under Carr? Just curious.
You're going to have to be more specific.
1) Do you think Quality Control guys going over their "official boundaries" never happened under LC?
2) Do you think UM NEVER exceeded the allowed practice time under LC?
Basically, I'm asking if you think if this investigation happened 3 years ago if the results would be significantly different.
Does Adrian Arrington running the steps at the Big House during the summer after his (*ahem*) incident with his girlfriend and her car count as "punishment" conditioning in the same way that Barwis was doling out conditioning punishments for missing class in summer school?
If so, then my answer to #2 is yes.
If not, then my answer to #2 is still yes.
I have no idea on #1. Almost certainly, but LC didn't have factions in the AD gunning for his head like RR does. Lloyd was quoted in support of RR yesterday, btw.
any chance on linking that Lloyd quote?
Lloyd doesn't mention RR by name, just that these issues are easily fixed. The more conspiratorial among us might presume that one of LC's fixes is firing RR, but that's not how I read the quote. He just doesn't think there's anything serious here.
I haven't read anything suggesting Rodriguez be fired for this petty crap. Heck yeah this stuff goes on everywhere. I dont think anyone really cares if they practiced too much or were punished for missing class in the offseason. If you have to have NCAA violations these are the kind you want to have.
I have heard and read from a lot of people that Rodriguez needs to get to 8 wins this year to keep his job. That seems fair to me. 8 wins has been the status quo for Michigan for as long as I can remember. 3 years isn't a very long trial run. As a general rule you give a new coach 4 years to get his stuff together. You can make an argument either way, but I dont think its totally unreasonable to shorten the rope by a year considering how spectacularly aweful his teams have been.
Now that Tate has a year under his belt and the team has had a couple of years to learn the system I think this year should give us a pretty good idea of what Rodriguez can do one way or the other. I guess we'll see.
I agree with you and I do think most of the "MGoCommunity" is on the same page. However, if you listen to the radio at all, there are a whole lot of people out there saying he should be fired. The general argument made by these folk is that losing for 2 years was bad enough but now this is the last straw.
I'm just trying to see if these people really believe that things have vastly changed under RR.
Talk radio is about eliciting a response. Even the Sparties on 97.1...I think if they were honest, they dont really believe half the crap that comes out of their mouths. If it cheeses you off they are doing their job. And the callers...90% are spartan dominos employees posing as Michigan fans. It's fun to listen and get angry, just try not to take it seriously.
Sports radio--and apparently the Free Press--is all about taking a strong, contrarian view in the interest of creating buzz and viewership. Since radio and newspaper audience are both in decline, the desperation to make waves grows.
If there is one thing I have been disappointed in the past couple years (particularly the local media) it's the lack of patience or perspective. Sure, I too have been incredibly disappointed in the football team's performance and think that the coaching staff has made its' share of mistakes. But any meaningful change takes time and involves pain. I loved Lloyd and will always appreciate what he brought to the program, but agreed that we needed some outside blood for a change. I'm not convinced even if Les Miles had rode in on his white horse that it would not have meant simply a continuation of Lloyd's last couple years: talented teams who ultimately disappointed.
I think beating OSU will be enough regardless of the record at the end of the year
a dishonest question. Or am I going to have to go to the Freep for that?
...point in another thread. I think most D1 coaches are thankful they don't have any malcontent former players complaining about these trumped up charges. They've likely violated this same NCAA rule themselves year after year.
It's all about crucifying RR. Maybe it's because Michigan holds itself to a higher standard, I don't know.
IMHO, this issue should die and go away. It's frivolous.
If I were a player fortunate enough to play for Michigan, I would be working out and practicing all the time, in every spare moment. And I would appreciate the coaches being there to be giving me guidance at the same time!
Having said that, I'm not so sure Carr, a true player's coach, would pressure kids to practice more than the rules allow. And I'm not saying RR did, either.
I agree this issue is frivolous. I've been thinking about it a couple of ways.
1) Michigan broke the rules. Accept our punishment and walk quietly into the night.
2) Michigan broke the same rules that everybody else broke. Accept our punishment, but gently suggest the NCAA subpoena practice records from other prominent FBS programs to examine how widespread the problem really is.
3) Adopt a stance of civil disobedience - for which we will likely get hammered. These rules are obsolete - let's look for ways to update the rulebook while still respecting the student-athlete.
The message boards and the blogosphere are full of those who think Michigan should be crucified, and that Rich Rodriguez is the most egregious cheater evar.
2) This, imho, is the crybaby way to go. I'd prefer we not consider it.
3) This is a great platform to champion some significant change. There's probably going to be a lot of resistance from the NCAA and a lot of heckling from around the country. If the rules are that archaic and not representative of the state of the sport, perhaps it's the only way.
Me? I'm torn. I don't like that we're now being considered a rogue program because of this. And it's painful to read the message boards and see how happily people criticize this program. I think it's unwarranted. And I think if people looked in the mirror, they'd find the same. At the same time, we broke the 'rules'. Something needs to be done. Let's look at those rules.
Whether Michigan is ultimately found to have violated rules or not, I think it's pretty clear that Rodriguez runs the program differently than Carr did. A number of players have said as much, pretty explicitly. So no, I don't believe the "exact same things" were happening under Carr.
The only reason I negged this thread was because it implies that all other threads pose dishonest questions, which is preposterous. I would estimate it's probably more like 50%.
I'm sorry but the time that the NCAA allows especially in the summer is ridiculous. I don't believe that there are many universities out there that are perfectly under or at these time limits. That's why when these allegations came up most of the sport casters were saying the same thing that by the time teams watched film and lifted weights in a week they'd be up to close to 18 hours already leaving not much time for practice. Michigan was just unfortunate because they had some former players who were upset with playing time and RR so they complained and our books weren't up to date.
Michigan, in my opinion overreacted way to much in its handling of Gary Moeller. Moeller never put the future of the program at risk, but was summarily terminated. I am not sure we are not acting strong enough in this case. I just have a hard time believing that the coaching staff didn't know what the QSC's were doing, especially in light of their attendance in team meetings. I have supported Rich Rod for the past few years, but right now I am not sure anymore. The idea of the extra minutes is a common one at any school. I think these allegations are very minor. Just saying if I am Michigan, I would sure be wondering what the hell the coaching staff was thinking and I would have serious concerns about their judgement or lack there of with the QSC staff in his meetings. Negpoints begin.
The NCAA came into town to investigate. It is more than likely they looked earlier than January 2008 to determine a pattern of violations.
Yet every allegation is alleged to have happened no earlier than January 2008. Who wasn't the coach starting at approximately 5PM on January 1, 2008?
If Lloyd Carr's program had been breaking these rules on a habitual (or even occasional) basis, wouldn't there have been some indication of wrongdoing before January 2008 in the NCAA's document?
Well, a big part of the issue is the practice logs, or lack thereof. Carr's staff, it seems, kept them while RR's did not. But the Carr regime wasn't perfect; Artis Chambers played a few games in 2007 when he was ineligible due to a paperwork blunder. The sheer amount of bureaucracy involved in complying with the NCAA makes running a perfectly clean program almost impossible.
look at? We'll never know. An NCAA investigation is like a Vatican investigation. Full results to be published in about 450 years.
It is always going to be a fecetious argument, by the way, for anyone to argue, "Everybody else does it." I don't know that everybody else does it. Maybe they do; maybe not. But we'll never know that, either. Because, the NCAA won't investigate. The NCAA, by its own admission, doesn't have the resources to do that, and by its own terms, it relies on the member schools to "self-enforce."
But naturally, and clearly, we come right back to the Free Press investigation. This entire enterprise began because of the Free Press. If, for instance, the Free Press had on its own, simply chosen to investigate MSU, Notre Dame and OSU in addition to Michigan (Why not? Just assign three more reporters to do ten interviews each at each school), would the NCAA have expected all four schools to self-investigate, along with the NCAA?