I hate this line. I hate it on Wikipedia, I hate it in newspaper articles. I just hate this piece of trivia. Do you know why? Woody Hayes only coached at Miami for two years. And those two seasons just happened to coincide with Glenn Schembechler Jr.'s junior and senior seasons there. NOBODY who played for Woody at Miami wasn't also Bo's teammate. Is that not far more relevant for this narrative? Isn't closeness to Bo > closeness to Woody? I suppose it's possible that a senior Bo and a younger John Hoke may have never spoken more than two words to each other, while Hayes obviously would have had a profound impact on both. But still, if you aim to construct a narrative wherein Hoke was born to coach Michigan, shouldn't Bo be the logical starting point?
"Hoke's father played for Woody Hayes at Miami of Ohio"
The Bo tree is dead. Long live the Bo tree. That was three years ago. Now I suppose we're taking cuttings from the Hayes tree, if a little bit indirectly.
But yes, I see your point. Just trying to add an overarching media-spun narrative.
The Bo tree and Hayes tree are part of the same tree. The two programs are perpetually interetwined whether the fan bases want to admit it or not.
that's part of what makes it so epic, guys. it's ok.
I agree, which is why I'm hesitant to wish fire and brimstone to OSU over this Tressel crap. They should be seriously punished because they deserve it, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing for Michigan. Sure we'll win more games and get more recruits but the rivalry has lived for decades with both programs at the top of their game. That's when it's really special.
I say throw him out. The Buckeyes did not fight fair. They gave us their best shot in the 90s and came up short. Some of OSU's best teams were from the 90s. Then Tressel comes in and starts the improper benefits dog-and-pony show he perfected at YSU. He knew the rules and his players knew the rules. Now they must face the consequences. I can't wait to play a sanctioned OSU a la SMU trotting out its first post-banhammer team.
I completely agree that Tressel should be fired, but OSU's program transcends Jim Tressel, which is something that Ohio State doesn't seem to understand right now.
This is true. Let us not forget the great athletic tradition of OSU. Jesse Owens. Archie Griffin. Eddie George. The tradition at OSU speaks for itself.
The AD and the fanbase appear to have lost their way at the end of the aughts. Corruption in the AD is rampart. The major Buckeye blogs have all rolled over and played dead on Tresselgate. The vast majority of fans are unable or unwilling to comprehend that Tressel and the AD are in very hot water right now. We cannot save them from themselves. If it is their fate to consume themselves and their own tradition in the ignominous end of the Tressel Era, then so be it.
Nothing is permanent in sports. The M-OSU rivalry is the greatest we have. However, if OSU's indiscretions on and off the field have doomed OSU's side of the bargain, then our job is to be the best team we possibly can, and I-form/4-3 those hillbillies back into the Stone Age. I will be cheering in the stands, wearing maize.
I don't suppose there's any way to convince you to move your graphic from your sig to the spot for avatars is there? I'd really like to read what you write but if it's longer than a line I find myself annoyed/disinterested because you have an avatar in your sig line (just being honest, not trying to be mean).
The site is still not accepting new avatar uploads. If I could move Doomguy into the normal avatar space, I would, but the site isn't letting me do what I want since at least the Malware Apocalypse.
Forgot about that - fair enough.
Also, when "we" always speak of "What would Bo do?". Do Buckeyes look themselves in the mirror and ask "What if Woody were here?". It wouldn't be pretty.
It's a shame what happened but if the Cheaty McSweater Vest era of the 2000's must be vacated beginning with the Pittman tweet about his tats, so be it. Did OSU ever consider the YSU cloud when they hired him? They sold their soul, and now hopefully it time to pay the fiddler.
If Woody was there he wouldn't have reported either. FWIW, my mother, tOSU class of 1965ish, said it was well known by the student body at the time that the program was far from legitimate (players given grades to remain eligible, $20 handshakes, etc.).
Just solidifies the fan base and culture of cheaters down south then. I always pictured WH as an Evil version of Bo not dirty. Bittersweet IF the shitstorm hits tOSU.
have witnessed lapses in playing by the rules.
Excerpt from Harry Kipke article at MVictors:
1. . . . he engaged in the practice of subsidizing athletes.
2. He failed to organize his coaching staf. [yes, one f.]
3. He was incompetent.
4. The board objected to his private associates.
5. He tolerated summer football practice. [In the '30's, practice was prohibited by the B1G before September.]
Yikes. Here’s a brief look at a few of the spiciest of the charges:
* Subsidizing players. Yes, it appears as though Michigan promised the classic nice “jobs” to incoming freshman. According to a university report players were basically guaranteed a wage at certain jobs whether they showed up or not. The local employer was “instructed to bill another Ann Arbor firm for the time the freshman collected for not working” [Chicago Tribune, 11/11/37]. The whole thing unraveled when a bogus “employer” wasn’t reimbursed in a timely manner and complained.
* Those “Private Associates”. This was aimed squarely at Kipke’s pal Mr. Harry Bennett, henchman/head of security at Ford. Henry Ford sent his problems to Bennett and they disappeared. Or were buried up north. Think Joe Pesci in Casino, or perhaps Winston Wolf from Pulp Fiction…
It looks to me like Tressel needs to be sanctioned, but, either way, life will then go on. There's nothing new under the sun.
Selling the gold pants would be a Dead Man Walking VIolation to WH I would have to think.
Woody would probably lock you in a corrugated metal shed all day and have the guys hit it with baseball bats. That's how fucking crazy he was.
Earle was talking about an incident early in Woody's tenure. When Woody arrived in 1951, he set up a summer jobs program for players to earn some money. These were legit jobs, not no-show jobs. Landscaping, construction, etc. Woody discovered that the Black players were making less than the White players, and paid the Black players out of his own pocket to make up for it. The NCAA put OSU on one year probation in 1956 as a result.
Tressel might not have had quite the edge he has had if he had played by the rules.
The irony of that statement is over the past 3 years, I think a large part of the Michigan fanbase forgot that Michigan's program transcends Bo Schembechler.
If OSU is knowingly committing egregious violations like playing guys who are ineligible, then their program is a sham. Which makes the rivalry a sham.
I agree that the rivalry is at its best when both programs are at the top of their game ... but if one program is shattering the rules to get to that point, then it's meaningless. I think they need to be punished severely to get it through their thick fucking skulls that they're not above the law ... unless they are, which vaguely seems disturbingly probable.
Exactly. I hope the rivalry will be what it once was again...some day. But I'm obviously not shedding any tears for OSU. I hope their punishment is severe. I hope their name gets dragged through the mud and their fans feel the pain from a coach who cheated, got caught and still won't give a proper apology. It couldn't happen to a more deserving fan base and I'll be there the whole time watching and eating popcorn.
of what the movie compilation of Tresselgate would look like when you post it on Youtube in a few years from now.
Given that Ohio State prides themselves on a seven-year winning streak vs. us (compared to an 11-year winning streak for Michigan, still the longest streak in the rivalry), our games from at least 2004-2010 will figure prominently. I'm going to go with gut-wrenching, followed by bacchinalian.
It will make it sting all that much more for TSIO when the pendulum swings back Michigan's way. Just like the aughts were sort of a lost decade for Michigan, the teens could be a lost decade for TSIO. If that happens, TSIO fans will be a lot more pissed about the reference than Michigan fans will.
There's plenty in the media to get upset about, but I don't think this is worthy of it. As you essentially state yourself, it's very possible that Bo and Hoke were not close.
More to the point, the official Miami media guide lists all the letterwinners in the program's history, and John Hoke is not among them. So if he played at all, he was never a starter, and wasn't even a good enough backup to earn enough playing time to get a letter. That also would have been a source of distance between Bo and Hoke. Although Bo was a lineman, he still was one of the stars on the team, and I doubt whether he would have hung around much with a younger guy who it appears would have been one of the scrubs.
Unless John Hoke has stated anything to the contrary, it's much more reasonable to assume that Coach Hayes's influence was more important and relevant than whatever Hoke's relationship with Bo was. The fact that Hoke and Bo were members of the program together for two years is more of an interesting historical footnote than anything else.
It would appear that we were quibbling over minutiae earlier in the thread. Your insight makes a lot of sense to me.
If you hate it on wikipedia, change it, or at least add the relevant bo information.
I'm just tired of the MIDWESTERN FOOTBALL (whatever TF that is) orgy that's been taking place all year. Here's the latest from everyone's favorite genius football columnist Tom Dienhart:
ARRRGGHHHHHH! Is there anything original in that column? Anything? What has he contributed to college football other than some "insider" quotes from Purdue coaches and players?
I fixed the wikipedia page for you Brodie. only took a couple of seconds.