Hoke vs. Beilein Parallels

Submitted by Lucky Socks on

Hoops season starts soon and we're all very excited about that.  John Beilein is a genius!  We're ranked #7!  We're coming off a Final Four!  OMG Shirtless Sophomores! We have good reason to be upset about yesterday, and the overall play of our 6-2 team but I personally believe in the big picture.  "Fire Hoke" and drawing negative conclusions about his regime's trajectory is unwise at this juncture.  Allow me to describe -- using parallels to our current hoops coach who is figuratively walking on water in AA these days.  

Beilein was hired in 2007 to replace a "sexy" name who didn't get the job done.  Nobody was really excited about the hire because we struck out on Pitino [EDIT:  Pitino was 2001.  In any case, Beilein wasn't a super exciting hire with his "White Guy" reputation and preverbial "ceiling"].  Hoke, 2011, and Harbaugh and it's the same.  Beilein had to re-recruit Harris and Sims and we struggled to a 10-22 record.  His second year was charmed and we overacheived to an NCAA Tournament win.  Hoke had to re-recruit Denard and others and we overachieved to a Sugar Bowl win. At this juncture, Hoke is ahead of schedule.  Both coaches/teams fell back down to earth in the following season and fans are rightfully disappointed.  

In Beilein's following season (2010-11), we started 1-6 in Big Ten play before the light went on and we upset MSU in East Lansing.  It's been a consistent increase in production ever since. This isn't Hollywood so the parallels aren't perfect (we got smoked yesterday and Lewan didn't have an anueysm of leadership), but we're 6-2 and have some opportunities to wake up.  In any case, we're still a year ahead of schedule according to the "Blueprint to BUILDING a Program" by John Beilein.

Now, Beilein made some coaching changes (Hello:  Jordan, Meyer, and Alexander) that helped him out.  I'm not saying Hoke does or doesn't need to make a few changes, but we're still figuratively playing with a couple Novak's and Douglass' at some skill positions, but while others (like the guards) have Darius Morris talent before the transformation.  

The worst thing Hoke could have done was apparently expidite expectations with the Sugar Bowl.  Have some perspective; remember Beilein's long road.  We're recruiting better than ever.  He's united the alumni and we love how he does things the "Michigan way".  We've enjoyed some success on the field and I promise we'll get to play MSU (1-2 isn't ideal, but better than 0-3), OSU (1-1), and ND (2-1) again.  

My opinion is that we should continue to support Michigan.  We're obviously not where we want to be, but these things take some time.  Tough to coach ourselves to a win when the interior O-Line literally gets crushed within 1 second on every play.  

Should this be a diary?  Is this too long?  Are my paragraphs not up to the "MGoBlog Pulitzer standard?"  Who cares.  Step away from the cliff, anxious Michigan fans.  The last time we gathered our pitchforks coaches negative recruited the hell out of our coaching stability and we got a Josh Groban appearance we'd all like to forget.  

Dr. Merp McMerpleton

November 4th, 2013 at 9:40 AM ^

With all seriousness, the OP's post was one of the worst Mgoblog posts of all time (where the OP had intentions of sounding intillgent).

Hoke's Head Coaching resume prior to coming to Michigan:

- 2008 Ball St season where he went 12-1, won the MAC West and promptly left his team before they could get destroyed in their bowl game.

- 2010 SDST season where he finished 9-4 and won the Poinsetta Bowl.

- His only other WINNING season (let alone his 'next best season') was 2007 at Ball State.

Beilein's resume prior to coming to Michigan:

- 1996: Took Canisuis to the NCAA tournament.

- 1998: Took Richmond to the NCAA tournament, won a game.

- 2005: Took West Virginia all the way to the Elite 8

- 2006: Took West Virginia to the Sweet 16

- While at Michigan he has taken us to the tournament 4 times (after a ten year NCAA draught), won our first B1G title since 1986, and coached in one of the best NCAA final games of all time.

Beilein also FIRED half of his assistants, undoubtedly making the coaching staff stronger.

While there might be some similarities (e.g., "they both pissed off seemingly the entire fan base at some point"), it's very, very silly to compare the two.  One is much more seasoned and had a tougher hill to climb (Coach B) while the other had a Sugar Bowl caliber team dumped into his lap (Hoke).  If Hoke wants to set his legacy at Michigan, he's going to have to make some adjustments this offseason.  That much is clear.  

[Edit: And if anyone wants to make the 'well look what Beilein did after Year 3 at Michigan, Hoke can do the same thing' argument - go ahead.  Just know that Beilein laid waste to half of his staff after that third year.  Assuming we don't beat Ohio this year due to some amazing playcalling on both sides of the ball - Hoke's going to need to bring down the hammer this offseason, or else we've all lost.]

 

evenyoubrutus

November 3rd, 2013 at 3:40 PM ^

This may be Hoke's "third" year but from a recruiting standpoint it is his 2nd.  If fingers must be pointed, they should be directed at David Brandon for dragging out The Process and basically wiping out an entire recruiting in 2011.  Everyone (including recruits) knew that Rodriguez was a lameduck coach after the OSU game that year.  Instead of just firing him then and going through that process in November, we waited until freakin' January and Hoke had three weeks to piece together a recruiting class that will basically amount to an equivalent of the disastrous 2010 class, which is barely extant.  "His" recruits are currently sophomores and RS Freshmen.  6-2 at this juncture in what is, for all intents and purposes a "rebuilding" year is not something that very many fanbases would complain about.  Meanwhile Dantonio will be graduating more than half of his starters and is at the pinnacle of what he could potentially achieve as the head coach of MSU.  It may seem like MSU is headed forward while we are headed backward, but I believe the opposite to be true; we are on an upward trajectory and MSU has peaked.  We may never be Alabama but we also will always be better than what we are at this moment under Hoke.  So everyone chill the 'eff out.

michfan4borw

November 3rd, 2013 at 4:31 PM ^

"Meanwhile Dantonio will be graduating more than half of his starters and is at the pinnacle of what he could potentially achieve as the head coach of MSU.  It may seem like MSU is headed forward while we are headed backward, but I believe the opposite to be true; we are on an upward trajectory and MSU has peaked."                                                                                                                                             MSU has a perfect schedule this year in conference by avoiding OSU and Wisc.   After this year, MSU's OL and defense will lose a lot, and I don't remember Dantonio getting much talent on OL and DL the last couple of years.   

I Like Burgers

November 4th, 2013 at 9:29 AM ^

"MSU's OL and defense will lose a lot"

Haven't we said this about MSU the last couple of years?  And even if they do lose a lot, given MSU's ability to develop the talent they have on their roster, I don't think that's as big of a negavtive for them as you think it is.  Michigan may be recruiting a bunch of four and five star type guys, but they haven't shown any ability to get the most out of the players that they have.

saveferris

November 4th, 2013 at 11:46 AM ^

Those players are all, for the most part, redshirt freshmen and sophmores.  It's premature to close the book on them and definitively say that Hoke and his staff have been unable to develop the talent they've recruited.  For every Kyle Kalis and Derrick Green who have yet to live up to their recruiting hype, there is a Devin Funchess who has developed into a legtimate weapon. 

Hoke and crew may not pan out in the long run, but we need to give them the chance to develop their guys to upperclassmen and then decide if we can't develop talent.

Mgoscottie

November 3rd, 2013 at 5:01 PM ^

good until you look at who we played.  Penn State barely beat Illinois, and our best win is against a ND team that looked significantly better than us on the lines and isn't very good.  If we go 8-4 against the worst big ten in 40 or 50 years, that's pretty terrible. 

MSU isn't that good either and they manhandled us.  This season is already a massive failure even if we win 3 more games.  We have no shot at a big ten title and we're only in the middle of the season. 

jblaze

November 4th, 2013 at 10:05 AM ^

for the next 50 years, so that's OK. Aside from OSU, who can compete with the big boys (Top 5 teams)? Not MSU, certainly not RU or MD. If Wisky didn't lose Beilema, maybe them. MSU will do well in the B1G, but would get destroyed in a Rose Bowl vs. Oregon or Stanford. 

All Michigan has to do is keep recruiting at the same level, improve a bit, have Borges be less arrogant and we'll do well in the B1G (except for against OSU, but if we win 1 on 3 vs them, that's not horrible). 

B1G_Fan

November 4th, 2013 at 10:43 AM ^

 A good defense can keep you in any game. I don't see Stanford or Oregon destroying MSU. They might beat them but definately won't be destroying them.

 So you're happy with beating OSU once every 3-4 years?! I'm not and if thats the best a coaching staff can get us they damn sure better be packing their bags. There is no reason for The university of Michigan to take a backseat to Ohio state ever

blue in dc

November 3rd, 2013 at 5:51 PM ^

While Brandon could have fired Rodriguez and hird Hoke right after OSU, giving Hoke significantly more time to recruit, I think there are downsides as well. Would Hoke have gotten the same reception he did if people thought we hadn't given Harbaugh a chance, would the team have done any better in the bowl game, would we have gotten Mattison.

I think Brandon had little choice but to give time for the Harbaugh drama to play out, which coincidentl made the RR firing easier because of the bowl disaster. Brandon inheritted a bad situation and I really don't think he handled it badly.

snarling wolverine

November 3rd, 2013 at 7:43 PM ^

And if he didn't let the Harbaugh situation play out, the fanbase would be up in arms right now: "Why didn't you wait for Jimmy!"  Or they'd complain that if RichRod had only gotten the chance to coach in the bowl, he'd have done an amazing job against Mississippi State, with a whole month to prepare.

He was damned if he did, damned if he didn't.   I think he ended up taking the better option, even if it did hurt our recruiting class that year.

 

saveferris

November 4th, 2013 at 11:59 AM ^

This is a great point.  Had we hired Hoke early and bypassed the pursuit of Harbaugh, the fanbase in general would've completely flipped their lid.  Besides, hiring Hoke after the OSU game would've gained him, what, another 2 or 3 weeks or recruiting time total?  That might've been enough to improve the class slightly, but letting Hoke start in on the 2011 class at the 10th hour as opposed to the 11th hour probably wouldn't have changed things too much; especially since that doesn't really play into Hoke's recruiting wheelhouse.

tricks574

November 3rd, 2013 at 3:39 PM ^

John Beilein had a resume, and one a mile long. Success at every level of the game, and consistent success, including a final four appearance at WVU. 



Where is Hoke's resume? 10 years of coaching and he's had 2 ten win seasons, and 7 of those years were at the MAC or Mountain West. 



Also, Beilein's teams got better. Hoke had one team make a jump to 11-2 the first year he was hired, but every year has gotten worse. Beilein had one team get worse then immediately was back to improving. Hoke had one team get worse and the next year followed it up by descending further into it. Beilein plays in the best basketball conference in the country, Hoke in the 4th best football conference, and by a ways. 



Beilein never looked like he was without answers, and was very swift in replacing his entire coaching staff when it would benefit the team. Hoke looks confused, his "simple guy" routine with the press is quickly turning into "stupid guy" and I would be stunned if he was so eager to replace coaches. Beilein, when faced with deficiencies in his frontcourt, managed to find a way to minimize them and make a tournament run with a team that was left for dead. Hoke, when faced with O-Line issues, has actually seen them get worse over the course of a season and gets Devin Gardner nearly killed. 



Don't compate Hoke to Beilein. Beilein is one of the best damn coaches in the game and Hoke is mediocre at best at everything but recruiting and having friend's who are great D-coordinators.

tricks574

November 3rd, 2013 at 4:42 PM ^

I'll just bury my head in the sand! Surely, Brady Hoke will have us in the national title game in a few years, because he's a Michigan man by golly! Just ignore the team obviously getting worse on the field, that's just because of the nasty effects of Evil Rodriguez, who had nothign to do with the 11-2 team the year after he left, but is entirely to blame for the crap offensive line we have 2 years later! 

glewe

November 3rd, 2013 at 7:21 PM ^

 

How about this: Stop making up shitty analyses of our football team?

"RABBLE RABBLE TEAM'S GETTING WORSE RABBLE RABBLE"

It's actually the most useless thing you could say. The real answers are far more complex, and yes, of course coaching has something (read: a lot) to do with it.

But at this point you just sound like a moron spouting nonsense out of your ass. Quit talking in absurd and useless platitudes; quit using meaningless statistics. Did you know that Hoke has a head coach for 20 years less than Beilein? Yet he won a championship at his first destination, and he was en route to winning one at his second when we plucked him away. And what did he do? He struck early: He won again. Granted, not a championship, but a BCS bowl game. Since then, he started rebuilding.

I'm not sold that Hoke is an elite coach, either, but you can quit being an insufferable douche. Get off the computer for a little while. Take a break from football.

Sten Carlson

November 3rd, 2013 at 9:07 PM ^

By the same token, Hoke had nothing to do with 11-2 and the BCS win, nor the defensive turn around huh? Can't have it both ways.

If Hoke leads Michigan to an NC game in a few years, will you be here to say you were wrong?

Dr. Merp McMerpleton

November 4th, 2013 at 9:56 AM ^

'in a few years'... what is that? 2? 3?

I am not even sure what we are arguing about anymore.  Is it, 'Is Brady Hoke a good coach' or 'can Brady Hoke be like John Beilein'?  

If it's the latter - Beilein inherited a tire fire by Michigan standards (sanctions, Amaker, lack of NCAA tournament appearance for a decade), had a few rough years, fired staff, turned the team into an annual NCAA lock, and even took us to a National Championship game (with all due credit to Trey Burke and Mitch McGary).

Can we expect Hoke to deliver a similar result 'in a few years'?  I don't know man.  I think 2011 was more of a mirage than anything, as Brady won the players over, had a very strong DL that he leaned on, and Borges let Denard do what he does best (and Denard had weapons on offense that he could use).  Will 2015 be any better than now? I sure hope so, but to expect a Championship caliber team is probably silly at this point.  Second Year Shane Morris is still a mighty big question mark (even though there is hope surrounding the remaining offensive positions).  

jmblue

November 3rd, 2013 at 4:03 PM ^

Actually, Beilein's first and third teams both declined, record-wise, from the previous season.  Tommy Amaker's last team won 22 games; Beilein's first won 10.  His first season was very similar to RR's first year - a huge decline in the win column, and a team that didn't seem to really understand or fully buy in to the new system.  Of his first three years, only the second was really satisfactory to the fanbase, but it was enough to buy him time to survive.

We also don't know yet that this football season will be worse than last year's.  I think there's still a good chance we end up 9-3.

 

LSAClassOf2000

November 3rd, 2013 at 4:06 PM ^

"Hoke had one team make a jump to 11-2 the first year he was hired, but every year has gotten worse. Beilein had one team get worse then immediately was back to improving. Hoke had one team get worse and the next year followed it up by descending further into it."

Not trying to be difficult here, but it is hard to say that Hoke has gotten worse every year when we aren't even done with the third year under this staff, at least if you're really going by the record. So, of course, strength of conclusion and all that. 

So, 10-2, 8-4, 6-2 to date. Even if we went 8-4 again, all it means if the record is the judge is that we waded through a season fraught with some different issues than 2012 to achieve the same result. I just think we need to use a more textured argument (or wait a few years with Hoke, changes to staff or not) than wins and losses if we're going to start throwing around phrases like "worse every year". 

aiglick

November 3rd, 2013 at 4:32 PM ^

Agree that 2+ seasons does not make up a trend. However, 8-4 this year does not equal 8-4 last year. Alabama was basically an auto-loss last year and they dropped off the schedule basically spotting us a win this year.

If we go 8-4 and beat a good team in the bowl game that could go a long way for us. This season is pretty much over for much of the team's goals this season but a lot can be done to make the future seem bright again.

We are certainly in a fragile position but all is not lost yet. The coaches are going to have to move quickly and try to make this season look respectable in order to come back with a vengence next year and/or the year after and hopefully for many more to come.

They also need to figure out road games which hopefully some of which is that we are a young, inconsistent team.

LSAClassOf2000

November 3rd, 2013 at 4:55 PM ^

In certain rather important metrics, it isn't quite where last year's team is. What I was pointing out is that the record is not what one should base such conclusions on necessarily, and even then, it isn't necessarily fair to claim much of a trend yet even if we are talking about more specific aspects of the game.

As an aside, it does lead me to wonder why some people use the tired old "third year" argument as if it applies the same every team regardless of situation - three years, unless one wants to break it out by game (which likely wouldn't show any obvious trends yet) never seems like sufficient time.

M-Wolverine

November 3rd, 2013 at 5:01 PM ^

Beilein never went to the Final Four with West Virgina. His highest achievement was one Elite Eight. And he finished 7thin the conference that year. He was 6th, 8th, 7th, 3rd, 7th at West Virginia, and had only finished 1st twice, once each at Canisius and Richmond in Division 1.

You might be making a point, but it's probably the opposite of what you're trying to make.

jmblue

November 3rd, 2013 at 3:40 PM ^

Beilein was hired in 2007 to replace a "sexy" name who didn't get the job done. Nobody was really excited about the hire because we struck out on Pitino.

This isn't quite right. We made a run at Pitino in 2001, before we settled on Amaker. Beilein, by all accounts, was our first choice. I don't know about other people, but I was thrilled we landed him. His WVU teams with Pittsnogle and Gansey were awesome.

UMfan21

November 3rd, 2013 at 3:51 PM ^

He was known as a recruiter, his coaching was largely unknown, and it was just assumed because he went to Duke that he would be a good coach. We've seen what happens to Coach K coaches ever since.

PurpleStuff

November 3rd, 2013 at 4:00 PM ^

He took Harvard to the tournament for the first time in over 60 years in 2012 and won a game in the tournament this past season.  He was .500 or better in league play 4 of his last 5 years at Michigan, despite dealing with probation and shitty facilities. 

"Not Beilein" isn't a terribly fair criticism of any coach.  The guy did way more good than harm here, esecially when you consider how things were going when he got the job.

Michigan4Life

November 3rd, 2013 at 4:04 PM ^

has been a good coach in terms of bridging from Ellerbe to Beilein era.   He had success but was close in a few times in making the NCAA tournament.  His inability to make the NCAA tournament is a big reason why he was let go. He can recruit talent but towards the end of his tenure at Michigan, it fell off because he couldnt' close on some high caliber players because of NCAA tournament appearance and facilities.

Bando Calrissian

November 3rd, 2013 at 4:05 PM ^

We're talking about Amaker at Michigan, where he managed to make good players regress and average players as mediocre as ever, couldn't coach X's and O's if he tried, shied away from doing any media or extraneous promotion for the program while Izzo was everywhere, and couldn't get a team beyond the bubble. Even with the sanctions, he had enough talent to do it, and flamed out every time. You can't blame facilities and sanctions when physical freak like Brent Petway couldn't be taught to play even passable defense. He did it to himself.

I'm glad he's done well at Harvard, he was a good enough guy, but not the guy for a program like Michigan.

jmblue

November 3rd, 2013 at 4:11 PM ^

I will say that I am shocked at how well he's done at Harvard.  I didn't see that coming at all.  When he was here he seemed like a pretty good defensive coach, but his halfcourt offense was always a mess.  I don't know if he just has better assistants now or what, but his Harvard teams look a lot more sound at that end of the court.

He's definitely a good guy, and had to put up with more than he deserved (like having to actually buy his own VCR to break down game tape).  I'm happy for him that he's having success now.

 

 

PurpleStuff

November 3rd, 2013 at 4:16 PM ^

That was really the only problem his teams had.  Daniel Horton was a short 2 who played the point for 4 years and Amaker never brought in anybody else who could run the show. 

Having guys like Morris and Burke has made Beilein look a lot smarter than he would otherwise the last few years.

jmblue

November 3rd, 2013 at 4:38 PM ^

Of course, those guys didn't exactly fall into Beilein's lap either.  Morris is from Los Angeles and Burke was an unknown, recruited only by PSU.   It's to his great credit that they ended up at Michigan.

I think we can also argue at this point that Beilein has developed a very point guard-friendly system in general.

 

UMfan21

November 3rd, 2013 at 4:49 PM ^

"Having guys like Morris and Burke..."



Do you remember what Beilein did with two walk on PGs named CJ Lee and Dave Merritt?



Beilein has certainly pulled in some good talent and found some gems, but the man can flat out coach and get the most from his players.