October 22nd, 2015 at 10:39 AM ^
...i never hated brady the way that some others did, but cumong man. brady talking about the 'rebuilding' job he did ignores the fact that the team got worse the further he got from the rodriguez years. did he raise the talent level? sure. i guess. but he also coached them right into the goddamn mountain.
October 22nd, 2015 at 10:56 AM ^
the team also got younger the further we moved away from Rodriguez...
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:03 AM ^
Based on early returns of Devin Gardner's first significant playing time, he was supposed to be the QB out of Michigan going early on draft day, not Connor Cook.
Thomas Rawls will probably get a nice payday in the offseason if he keeps his head on straight in Seattle. I don't know if that happens if he would've stayed here.
And no line with Taylor Lewan should be as bad as they were.
It's okay if you're young as long as people see development. They did not develop enough under Hoke.
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:19 AM ^
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:00 AM ^
This.
You can sell me on 2013 being a rocky year because of two transitions in quick succesion and Rodriguez and Hoke both being hamstrung recruiting in 2011. But come on. There is no way the 2014 team should have been as bad as it was. Yeah the offense was young (though we did have a 5th year senior at QB and NFL early round talent in Funchess...and as Brian has pointed out, our OL was only a year of experience younger than the OL that won the national title), but we had a pretty veteran defense last year and they were mediocre whenever it mattered.
There's no reason to believe he was building towards anything. He got handed talent by Rodriguez/Carr that won him some games early (along with immense luck, the opposite of Harbaugh) and that's it.
October 22nd, 2015 at 12:15 PM ^
October 22nd, 2015 at 1:04 PM ^
Yep. Hoke is my guy, but 2014 was a disaster.
I never had really high hopes for 2013, I was certain the OL was gonna kill us. Even still, that 7 win season was worse than I had expected.
But 2014 left no doubt that he wasn't going to work. Everything got away from him, he lost control of the team, and you almost never get it back.
October 22nd, 2015 at 10:40 AM ^
I know most of us here really got fed up with Hoke and his "lack of's" in a lot of areas - but it's pretty obvious that he's a good guy and loves Michigan and is one helluva recruiter. He's a decent coach but just not elite. Not much more you can say - Michigan needs an elite coach for an elite program. I wish him the best.
October 22nd, 2015 at 10:41 AM ^
It'd be cool if Hoke and MIllen were the tv commentators for a UofM game
/jumps out window
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:42 AM ^
That would be a sign of the apocalypse
October 22nd, 2015 at 10:42 AM ^
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:00 AM ^
dude, have any of you even bothered to look at how lopsided the roster has been in terms of age in the past 4-5 years?
can you name a single coach who has won big with 58 out of 85 scholarship guys in their first or second year, and only 27 out of 85 in years three, four, and five?
i'm sorry, but the level of hate for Hoke on this blog is just fucking ridiculous.
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:09 AM ^
no really though, who among you can name a coach who has won big in a power 5 conference with 58+ out of 85 scholarship players in their first or second year.
anyone?
if anyone can name such a coach I will happily admit I am wrong and drop this point.
but I don't think a single one of you armchair experts can actually do that so why don't you chill out and move the fuck on.
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:29 AM ^
Last year our offensive line had one less year on campus than Ohio State's. Guess how they did?
We had a 5th year senior QB and a JR early round NFL wideout.
We had a JR RB in Justice Hayes and two SOs who had seen extensive playing time.
We also had JR TE AJ Williams and JR RB Dennis Norfleet.
On the defensive line we had seniors Frank Clark and Brennen Beyer as well as juniors Ondre Pipkins and Mario Ojemudia.
At LB we had senior Jake Ryan and juniors RJS, James Ross and Joe Bolden.
In the secondary we had seniors Raymon Taylor, Delonte Hollowell and Blake Countess as well as junior Jarrod Wilson.
While the situation was not ideal, this was not a team devoid of upperclassmen. We had plenty of guys in their third year or greater who were highly ranked recruits. There is no way that team should have went 5-7.
October 22nd, 2015 at 12:42 PM ^
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:31 AM ^
Steve Spurrier won the Captial One bowl in 2013 with 74 Sophomores and freshman (Including red shirts). 43 freshman, 31 sophmores. This is out of their 104 man roster. They had 4 seniors and 26 juniors.
What do I win?
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:38 AM ^
That same year these teams has high percentages of underclassmen and did better than Hoke.
Texas A&M - 66% underclassmen - Won Chick Fil A Bowl
Vanderbilt - 62% underclassmen - Won BBVA compass bowl
Missouri - 61% underclassmen - Won Cotton Bowl
Auburn - 57% underclassmen - lost to FSU in championship game.
While the percentages aren't as high, it's very apparent that you can win with underclassmen.
October 22nd, 2015 at 12:12 PM ^
By my calculations, 2013 Auburn had 62/113 players in their 1st and 2nd year, which rounds up to only 55%.
That includes WALKONS, who skew the numbers because many walkons will quit the team before reaching their 3rd or 4th year.
For Michigan, the number was 58/85, which rounds down to 68%.
So look at it this way, for the scholarship roster (the part that actually matters) Michigan had 32% of players in their 3rd year or later. Auburn had 45% of their TOTAL roster, meaning the % of players in their 3rd+ year on the scholarship roster is even greater than 45%.
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:59 AM ^
You're making an apples to oranges comparison: Michigan had 58 out of 85 in their 1st or 2nd year
What are the numbers for 2013 South Carolina if you don't include walkons (which inflate the numbers for underclassmen as many walkons quit before their junior and senior seasons) and don't include 3rd year sophomores?
Give me the numbers for the scholarship roster, without including 3rd year sophomores, and then we can discuss your winnings.
October 22nd, 2015 at 2:32 PM ^
According to this site: http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/south-carolina-gamecocks-team…
Their roster was 82. They were cut a couple scholarships as a penalty. Below are the stats for that roster adjusting for redshirt status:
SR: 5 1 RS - Total 6
JR: : 17 0 RS - Total 17
SO: 24 0 RS - Total 24
FR: 35 0 RS - Total 35
Total Soph and Fresh: 59 71% of roster
Total Junior and Senior: 23 28% of roster
October 22nd, 2015 at 4:11 PM ^
South Carolina was also working with a Senior QB who'd played the backup role as a freshman and had been the starter as a sophomore and junior. His senior season, which was his 4th in the same offensive system, he threw for 24 TDs and only 1 INT.
Hoke had Gardner in 2014 , who threw for 10 TDs and and 15 INTs.
Gardner was learning his 3rd offensive system in 5 years (RR --> Borges --> Nuss), wasn't even practicing at QB for half of 2012, and was also playing with an Oline and run game that was transitioning to primarily zone blocking.
And while Funchess may have been a 2nd round draft pick, he was drafted that high solely because of his immense physical potential, and was only playing his first year as a full time WR instead of TE (which is the position that other schools had recruited him to play as well
Am I saying that Hoke should have been retained? No. Am I glad that we've got Harbaugh, who was one of the top NFL coaches not named Belichick? Hell yes.
What I AM saying is that Hoke is not anywhere near as terrible, bumbling, and incompetent as many fans think he is.
His biggest shortcomings, in my opinion, were his unwillingness or inability to go out and hire a good spread OC in 2011 when he inherited Denard Robinson, his inability or unwillingness to bring top talent to his staff (Mattison being the exception), and yes the fact that his game management skills deteriorated as the pressure mounted later in his tenure. QB recruiting was a long term problem but having one more redshirt freshman QB on the roster probably wouldn't have made any difference in 2014.
He has shown the ability to be self critical about all of these things (well, he hasn't said publicly that Funk and Ferrigno should have been replaced / never should have been hired in the first place, and good for him for not saying it publicly but I'm sure he has thought it to himself) and has gone out of his way since being fired to improve his weaknesses by learning from successful coaches.
It is unreasonable to conclude that he is incapable of being a succesful coach at a smaller P5 school, and most of the hate directed towards him by this fanbase is some variant of "he must be an idiot because of the dialect he speaks" or *insert clapping joke here*.
I get it, you're pissed because of disappointing seasons and so am I, but bitterness and anger towards Brady Hoke is not going to change the 2014 record. Wish him well & let it go. We have Harbaugh now - better days are already upon us.
October 22nd, 2015 at 4:21 PM ^
It is unreasonable to conclude that he is incapable of being a succesful coach at a smaller P5 school
I agree.
It is also unreasonable to conclude that he is capable of being a succesful coach at a smaller P5 school.
Now... if you want to look at what the evidence indicates but doesn't prove...
October 22nd, 2015 at 5:40 PM ^
I'm not pissed either way to be honest. I just provided an answer to your claim that a P5 school cannot compete with such a large number of underclassmen. The merits of Hoke being a head coach aren't my decision. I think he'll make a great MAC or low expectation P5 coach or a decent line coach.
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:31 AM ^
that should lead to an 8-4 season.
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:42 AM ^
Hoke's problem is not that he failed to win big in 2013. The biggest criticism of Hoke is his disastrous 2014 season. That team had 40 players in their third year plus. The 2013 team was young, but they got a lot of experience. He had the team going in the wrong direction. If he had built on that 2013 season, he'd still be coaching.
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:58 AM ^
scholarship players in 2014. That's obviously false, given the sizes of our recruiting classes. I count half that many on the roster. It's a ridiculous claim for him to make.
http://www.mgoblue.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/120214aab.html
October 22nd, 2015 at 1:18 PM ^
that's a good point. after further poking around with the rosters, it looks like that stat is counting redshirt sophomores after all.
October 22nd, 2015 at 1:22 PM ^
Dabo Swinney.
Clemson has 76 Freshman and Sophmores on their roster right now. 39 Juniors and Seniors.
They're 6-0 and ranked #6 in the country.
Last year Michigan was #75 in terms of youth (according to Phil Steele) - so still pretty young.
Teams that were younger:
#1 Ohio State
#3 Alabama
#7 Baylor
#8 Georgia Tech
#12 Arizona St.
#13 Wisconsin
#15 Clemson
#24 Louisville
#25 Stanford
October 22nd, 2015 at 3:41 PM ^
"can you name a coach who has won big in a power 5 conference with 58+ out of 85 scholarship players who are 18-19 years old?
i will insert my foot directly into my own mouth if you can." - MgoCarolinaBlue
I'd like to see you insert your own foot directly into your mouth now, please.
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:09 AM ^
The YOUTH MAFIA still exists. Mind blowing.
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:19 AM ^
can you name a coach who has won big in a power 5 conference with 58+ out of 85 scholarship players who are 18-19 years old?
i will insert my foot directly into my own mouth if you can.
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:32 AM ^
Harbaugh was handed a pretty bad offense who lost its effing 5th year senior QB and its main deep threat...the offense isn't stellar but it at least looks like he's BUILDING something there. Yeah, it was fairly blah against MSU, and yet that was BY FAR the best offensive output we've had against them in awhile. I mean, really, we haven't scored 23 or more on them since....
I'm sorry...youth does not explain it all. It just does not.
October 22nd, 2015 at 12:24 PM ^
Some people can just accept losing, or going in the wrong direction, without acknowledging any need for change.
Doing the same thing and expecting different results is always a good definition of insanity. We needed a change, badly, from the top down.
Just because he is folksy, or seems like a nice guy, or has good values, does not translate to him being a "good coach".
IMO, Michigan never would have been a top team again under Brady Hoke.
October 22nd, 2015 at 4:19 PM ^
How on Earth do any of you think that I'm saying Hoke should have been retained?
I am not saying that.
Harbaugh is a much better coach and I'm very glad for that.
However Harbaugh being a much better coach does not make Hoke a terrible coach - Harbaugh is a much better coach than almost every single current coach of a P5 team.
Is Hoke a significantly worse coach than, say, Jerry Kill at Minnesota? Is Jerry Kill a terrible, incompetent, idiotic coach, or is he an average coach for a P5 team?
Brady Hoke was not good enough to coach at Michigan - most P5 coaches aren't! That doesn't mean they are shit coaches, it means they are not the type of elite coach we expect to have here.
edit: "Just because he is folksy, or seems like a nice guy, or has good values, does not translate to him being a "good coach"."
Where have I EVER made that claim? Stop putting words in my mouth.
October 22nd, 2015 at 4:43 PM ^
Is Hoke a significantly worse coach than, say, Jerry Kill at Minnesota?
Absolutely, yes.
Kills 1st head coaching job was Saginaw Valley State. He's the winningest coach in SVSU history. He won 73% of his games vs. a historical average of 59%. +24% vs. historical norm.
At Southern Illinois Kill went 55-32. He won 63% of his games vs. a historical average of 46.5%. +35% vs. historical norm.
At Northern Illinois Kill went 24-16. He won 60% of his games vs. a historical average of 54%. +10% vs. historical norm.
At Minnesota Kill has won 46% of his games vs. a historical average of 57%. -24% versus historical norm, but was positive relative to the 5 years before he got there.
Hoke has never had a better than historic norm record at any of his coaching stops.
Hoke:
Ball State:: -9% relative to historic norm
SDSU: -1.6% relative to historic norm
Michigan: -12% relative to historic norm
October 23rd, 2015 at 10:28 AM ^
Hoke's numbers at Ball St and SDSU are deflated because he did poorly in his early seasons and he was only there for a few years each. If you look at the trajectory of those programs, he has greatly improved every program has has helmed except for Michigan.
October 23rd, 2015 at 10:33 AM ^
No, he hasn't.
Hoke was at Ball St. longer then Kill was at any stop.
If you look at the trajectory of Ball St - it was basically a flatline except for one season.
Ball St. in 3 years prior to Brady Hoke:
2000: 5-6
2001: 5-6
2002: 6-6
Ball St. under Brady Hoke:
2003: 4-8
2004: 2-9
2005: 4-7
2006: 5-7
2007: 7-6
2008: 12-2
October 22nd, 2015 at 5:48 PM ^
October 22nd, 2015 at 4:38 PM ^
I don't hate Hoke, but I thought that hiring him in the first place was a mistake. His body of work was pretty mediocre and that first season he had as a head coach was a complete outlier. He regressed to his mean. Simple as that. Any AD will have to keep that in mind when they consider him as a candidate.
October 22nd, 2015 at 10:42 AM ^
I love Jim Harbaugh, and at the same time, I loved Brady Hoke. I don't want to get into a debate here with other posters about what kind of coach he was. That's why I didn't wade into the punt thread yesterday. I do think Brady was a good coach: others disagree. C'est la vie. Thanks for posting; I enjoyed the read, and truly wish Hoke well.
October 22nd, 2015 at 10:48 AM ^
we all know what Coach Harbaugh says about comparing things...
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:02 AM ^
....................what makes you think he was a good coach?
You know, besides "He's a really good guy" or "He's a nice guy" or something along those lines.
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:19 AM ^
The reason I think he was a good coach is because of what I've heard from Jack Harbaugh and Greg Mattison and the guys who played under him. Now, I think Harbaugh is a better coach, with a much, much better staff. But I still think Hoke was a good coach. There are multiple reasons things didn't work out. I tend to write too long posts, which I'm not going to do. Really, in my mind, it doesn't much help to look back. We can agree that is great to have Jim Harbaugh, and it is great to be a Michigan Wolverine.
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:32 AM ^
So no real reason then? You realize they were just being nice to him, just like Harbaugh has been nice to him in the media?
Edit: I should say this: Its entirely possible that he's a good line coach, good recruiter, etc. But he's not a good head coach.
October 22nd, 2015 at 1:28 PM ^
I think it really depends on your definition if "good"
If one views the 60th best coach in FBS as "good", it fits.
If one requires a coach to be top 20 in the country to be good - Hoke wasn't close.
October 22nd, 2015 at 10:43 AM ^
You ended up in a few negative headlines this week for saying you wouldn't have punted at the end of the Michigan State game. What did you mean by that?Hoke: I didn't say that to criticize Jim. I prefaced it by saying it's easy to comment three days later, as opposed to the heat of the moment. My only comment was that defense is the strength of Michigan's team. Because of the mechanics of the punt, I'd rather snap the ball to the quarterback and try and win the game.
October 22nd, 2015 at 10:53 AM ^
Of course it was "weird". They only had sandwiches, not subs. Had they had subs, it would have been upgraded to "crazy".
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:15 AM ^
One thing about Hoke is that he went for the first down (or the touchdown) more so than many coaches. I kind of liked that about him. It doesn't make him right in this instance but that was his style.
October 22nd, 2015 at 11:34 AM ^
In 2013 against Penn State, Devin Gardner was tearing Penn State up on the ground after a shaky start. When we could have won the game with a first down, Hoke chose to run Fitz into the line 3 times, unintentionally took a delay of game and then punted for a touchback.
There is zero doubt in my mind he would have done the exact same thing Harbaugh did (if he was somehow fortunate enough to be in the same position).
Hoke's balls on calls left when Denard Robinson left.