January 16th, 2016 at 9:57 PM ^
the way his teams allowed Devin to be utterly abused spoke volumes. The lack of player development was disgusting, and no, that's not conjecture.
The way his program fell apart, culimating in the twin humiliations of his handling of the Gibbons situation and the Morris fiasco is not something I imagined.
Everything I said is based in reality. Sorry if you have trouble processing reality from all the way up there on your imaginary high horse.
January 16th, 2016 at 10:00 PM ^
of Hoke's offensive linemen.
Judging from the results and what we all saw Saturday after Saturday, they were on to something.
January 16th, 2016 at 10:01 PM ^
you seem to be talking about that school down south, but for as bad as the team was in Hoke's last two years, his first year was our only win over them in 12 years and he played them better than anyone during that time, including this year. His three losses to OSU were by far fewer total points (5+1+14=19) than we lost that game just this year (29).
In none of his four games did we get physically dominated the way we did this year. But we weren't that far away this year (underdogs by 3 points but just had an absentee defensive coach) and we're already ranked higher than them next year. That whole "we have so far to go" thing is so off base, largely because he brought in some great talent that is going to peak in 2016.
January 16th, 2016 at 10:10 PM ^
but
1) we were not physically dominated this year - Durkin just got badly outschemed and we could not handle the mobile QB/short passing game
(if you couldn't see the difference in the way our strength matched up against opponents this year, I don't even know what to tell you)
and
2) you are ignoring what was happening in terms of program building. Urban has created a monster down there, and none of us can deny this. Instead of coming close to keeping pace, we had a program that declined from Hoke's first season on.
Hoke was getting the wrong players, playing the wrong players, failing to develop those players, and created a culture of losing and doubt. At the same time, Urban was creating nothing short of a professional organization in Columbus. Ironic that they're probably paying their players less than before and they've never been so professional in the way they approach all aspects of the game.
Sorry, but it goes far beyond beating Fickell and keeping it close in those two other games.
January 17th, 2016 at 8:01 AM ^
January 17th, 2016 at 9:57 PM ^
in your bitter, unsubstantiated rant that we were dominated by OSU under Hoke (never in four games) and that the program was so far behind (clearly not).
As another commenter pointed out here, we were physically dominated worse this year against OSU than in any of Hoke's years. If you think Hoke's performances in those games (pick any one of them) were worse than this year, you do not know anything about football.
I said nothing about other opponents or other games so I'm not sure why that's part of your argument. You brought up Hoke's performance in this rivalry, and I addressed the ways in which we weren't dominated in those four years.
Our teams were bad in Hoke's last two years and he absolutely deserved to be fired, because it was his fault, but that doesn't change the fact that we were not dominated in ANY of those four rivalry games which was the argument.
And if the program was left so far behind, we could not have had such a successful year with Hoke's players. Harbaugh would be the first to tell you that. The reason for Hoke's failures were mostly twofold: 1) Young, ineffective offensive line which was only partially his fault in his last two years and 2) Running bad offensive schemes for his QBs and doing a horrible job of recruiting QBs. It looks like Hoke QB recruits will start a total of two games EVER for M, and both of those were by default and mostly disasterous. The first problem was somewhat corrected this year just by gaining another year of experience for the o line so that those players were at least the age when guys usually are when they become starters. The second problem was corrected thanks to Harbaugh getting and coaching up Rudock. And it looks like O'Korn is going to bridge the full gap left by Hoke.
You obviously can't be a good football team without the most important position on the field being effective and that was all on Hoke, but at least putting the right guy at that one position with the right scheme is an immediately implementable solution. So no, the full program wasn't and isn't that far behind.
If you blame Hoke for the Morris incident or bad department PR, etc. you should read Bacon's book.
January 17th, 2016 at 12:59 AM ^
At least Harbaugh had a pulse against Michigan State.
January 16th, 2016 at 10:01 PM ^
you seem to be talking about that school down south, but for as bad as the team was in Hoke's last two years, his first year was our only win over them in 12 years and he played them better than anyone during that time, including this year. His three losses to OSU were by far fewer total points (5+1+14=19) than we lost that game just this year (29).
In none of his four games did we get physically dominated the way we did this year. But we weren't that far away this year (underdogs by 3 points but just had an absentee defensive coach) and we're already ranked higher than them next year. That whole "we have so far to go" thing is so off base, largely because he brought in some great talent that is going to peak in 2016.
January 16th, 2016 at 10:26 PM ^
freejs, I didn't downvote you because you made some very strong points about how personally you took some of Hoke's shortcomings. The same points could be made to some extent about every coach who's ever been fired, I'd say.
I do find it insincere when people say they "wish they were..." fill in the blank. I don't generally get the feeling that you or anyone else means it. I think it shows our better nature when you choose to be more forgiving, or generous, or kind, or whatever kinds of things people "wish' they were more of.
AS has been pointed out in a few prior comments, Hoke bled Maize & Blue, his greatest dream was to succeed in this job. His passion convinced virtually our entire roster to join him on his Quixotic quest - Peppers, Butt, J. Lewis, M. Cole, Darboh & Chesson, Mone, Henry, the Glasgows... I could go on. But ultimately he failed in the job.
If you want to say he failed Devin Gardner, I'd agree. Shane Morris too, in an unconscionable way really. But I doubt you'd find many who'd say they felt "hung out to dry" by Hoke. My main point all along is that when greeting the news that he's been made the DC at another fine school with a strong football program with a sort of bitter derision, you really just cheapen yourself (and by extension the school which you support and in some fashion represent with public comments).
When you mock Hoke rather than congratulate him, you all sound like buckeye fans talking about John Cooper - and I know you don't wanna be lumped in with them!
January 16th, 2016 at 11:46 PM ^
DV - it's much more mature and thoughtful.
I did laugh - not harshly - at your contention that it's insincere. It's funny, because you are quite wrong in this instance. If you've ever known anyone with a temper, believe me, we wish things didn't piss us off quite as much and we wish we were slower to anger.
As to the other content - I don't think the same things could be said about every coach that is fired. Some coaches catch bad breaks. Some coaches just aren't quite good enough. Not every fired coach presides over a program that exhibits such disarray in so many instances. Not every fired coach rolls out incoherent game plans on one or both sides of the ball so consistently.
The Funchess situation was crazy - on the one hand, it's revolting to see a guy just kind of opt-out on his team - on the other hand, the coaches literally devised game "plans" that looked like they were desgined to get him injured. You can't run that play to him over and over again, especially without setting it up.
I never doubted Hoke's desire to do well or his passion for the program, but man, I've got passion for the program, too. You are either qualified and good enough to coach at a school like Michigan or you aren't - by neither prior performance or actual performance was this guy qualified.
The games against Sparty were damning. I've never - never in my lifetime - seen a Michigan team get beat like that. Or have something as humiliatingly dumb as the spike and then the hanging out to dry that followed that all.
As to his recruiting, he recruited well, but I've never been sure how much better he did than most any decent recruiter should recruit to Michigan.
"Hanging out to dry" is a matter of how you look at it - in terms of on field stuff, I think any kid who commits to Michigan should expect a certain level of player development and it just wasn't there. Listen, I had the same disgust with the Amaker teams. Kids weren't getting better, and in my book, that's not okay.
In terms of my derision, it's more a reaction to the falling all over of the selves to show no ill will. I wish him well, I've got ill will. I am very alright with where I stand as a "classy" or "classless" fan. I'm pretty confident about where I stand on that equation over all, so I don't indulge in some reflexive desperation to try to show just how "klassy" or "reasonable" or "better than" I am than other fans. I am better than Ohio State fans because they think horrible things and believe in horrible things. I am better than Sparties because they are horrible, sad people. I am a fan. There are limits to my "reason."
OMG this game is insane - I think I just blacked out
January 16th, 2016 at 11:56 PM ^
Man you were typing that during the Hail Mary & subsequent AZ drive?!?!
You really are a better man than me then - I just watched slack jawed. Most incredible ending I've ever seen - and this is coming from someone that lost $200 when Bama allowed Clemson to score a meaningless TD with :12 left on the clock a few days ago! Between Rodgers' throws from the endzone & the Hail Mary, and then Fitz's reception following Palmer's nearly being sacked by his own guy - cumong man!!!!!
And that's leaving out the coin "non" flip...
Anyway, Hoke failed, pissed you off, embarrased you more than a bit I'd judge by your comments - but all that being as it may, he loved our school, our team, gave his all, the job was just bigger than him. I wish him well until the day JH humiliates him in a CFP game!
Cool?!
January 16th, 2016 at 11:58 PM ^
I would certainly like to see him do well.
I can't believe the game I just saw. I'm a Giants fan, so the Tyree game is still more religious, but that was one of the most insane things I've ever seen.
January 17th, 2016 at 12:26 AM ^
The Tyree catch is the most incredible single play in the history of organized football - surpassing the "band is on the field" 6 lateral Cal-Stanford ending.
But the series of events that just unfolded from the Rodgers throw on 4th down from the endzone to the AZ OT TD was unprecedented.
If you love the G-Men so much stay away from the unadulterated Brady love on the NFL games thread, brother! I guess it'd be hard to root against TB and have some of your greatest sports memories be his defeats at the hands of NYG?!
To sum up this entire Hoke topic, Hoke pissed me off too, the Shane game was my last last last straw - I thought he should've been fired the next day. Instead, we all know how that marketing genius Brandon drew it out until the entire UM was humiliated and/or infuriated.
In retrospect the whole Brandon/Hoke ouster, Harbaugh hiring may never take place as it did without Shane being sacrificed on the alter of Hoke's incompetence.
And yet still - I wish him well so long as he doesn't play us. I don't root for or against RR either. I'm an interested but impartial observer. And he didn't bleed Maize & Blue...
January 16th, 2016 at 11:41 PM ^
if you're a true knuckle dragger, regulate yourself.
If you're passionate and exhibit a view that it downright chaps your ass for your program not to live up to an at least somewhat reasonable standard? Believe me, there are many recruits who want to play for a fanbase like that. Believe it.
January 17th, 2016 at 3:56 AM ^
That make me wonder about the board as a whole! Hoke sucked, PERIOD! Everyone has the right to their opinion, if you are a Hoke applogist (Which it sounds like you are) then start your own F****king thread about what a great hire it was...Geesh!
January 16th, 2016 at 7:40 PM ^
January 16th, 2016 at 5:36 PM ^
January 16th, 2016 at 6:00 PM ^
January 16th, 2016 at 6:35 PM ^
....but if these two can make it work, then maybe Mark and Brady can also....
January 16th, 2016 at 6:52 PM ^
Wildest marriage? Have you heard about Warren Jeffs' foray(s) into this institution? What about Woody Allen's?
January 16th, 2016 at 8:08 PM ^
I haven't even heard of Warren Jeffs!
January 16th, 2016 at 9:38 PM ^
You should meet his wives.
January 16th, 2016 at 5:40 PM ^
This is going to end well...both this thread and his coaching tenure.
But seriously, good luck to him.
January 16th, 2016 at 5:38 PM ^
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January 16th, 2016 at 6:23 PM ^
Best wishes to Brady Hoke! I hope that this Michigan Man continues to master his craft. It's splendiferous to see a great man get another opportunity after things went south for him and for the team. I'll be really interested to see what he can do without an athletic director who arbitrarily breaks things and fires people in the name of "progress."
January 16th, 2016 at 6:27 PM ^
January 16th, 2016 at 5:38 PM ^
Ex #Michigan HC Brady Hoke is #Oregon's new DC.
— Bruce Feldman (@BruceFeldmanCFB) January 16, 2016
January 16th, 2016 at 6:36 PM ^
I'll give him a big hug if and when I see him on campus.
January 16th, 2016 at 5:39 PM ^
Not even Nike can make a headset flashy enough for him to wear.
January 16th, 2016 at 6:07 PM ^
This is admittedly funny, but it is much less necessary for a HC to wear a headset than it is for coordinators. The fact he didn't wear one here is notable, but not a damn scandal. I am 99% sure he will be wearing a headset as Oregon DC.
January 16th, 2016 at 7:00 PM ^
Hope Brady does well in Oregon and wish him the very best - unless it is against us!
But I really disagree with you about the headset, you don't think it would have helped to have him hear what the coaches upstairs are seeing and saying??? He is on the filed trying to coordinate the next play and substitutions and would have benefitted by hearing what people were seeing.
January 16th, 2016 at 7:22 PM ^
No. I don't think it would have. Did you read Bacon's book? It didn't seem that lack of real-time communication with Hoke was one of the real drivers of this terrible series of events.
Edit: just to clarify for others, Hoke tried to call time-out and buy Shane out of the game and the refs (incorrectly) told him that was not allowed.
January 16th, 2016 at 7:49 PM ^
Hoke tried to call a time out to keep Gardner IN the game after he had his helmet knocked off. Hoke put Shane BACK into the game after pulling him. That was why the whole sequence was such a travesty. He could have put Speight in the game, or Jake Butt, or anybody who didn't have a concussion. He didn't have to put Morris in as a sub at that point.
January 16th, 2016 at 8:56 PM ^
Hoke didn't put Morris in the game, Morris went in to the game on his own volition. Moreover, he was released to return to the game by a person on the medical/training staff. You're allowed to have your own opinions, you're not allowed to present fantasy as facts.
You and your ilk have a lot in common with 9/11 truthers and birthers.
January 16th, 2016 at 10:41 PM ^
You're claiming that Shane Morris entered the football game without the permission of the coaching staff? He had been benched by Hoke. That would be a pretty serious issue if players are entering the game from the sideline without the go ahead from coaches.
Whether or not he had been cleared to play by the medical staff (and I find it pretty hard to believe that he could have been cleared through any kind of concussion protocol since he clearly took a HUGE shot to the head a couple of plays before coming off the field, just minutes before going back into the game) he has to get permission from the coaches before coming into the game.
January 16th, 2016 at 8:10 PM ^
Shane was the one who was hurt, whether they knew it was a concussion at the time or not. Hoke was aware of that and was trying to keep Shane off the field by attempting to call timeout. Gardner did not have a concussion and there was not indication he was hurt. Because having one's helmet come off during a play =/= concussion.
January 16th, 2016 at 10:43 PM ^
If Hoke was trying to keep him off the field he could have done a bit better. There were other players that could have gone in to take a snap other than Morris. He could have taken a timeout to draw up a play for a wildcat quarterback. He could have called a timeout to have a player come in and take a knee in victory formation. Hoke's hands were not tied in any way. Morris was not the only option other than Gardner.
January 17th, 2016 at 3:57 AM ^
Nuff said...
January 16th, 2016 at 9:32 PM ^
he wouldn't have been pushed into that by an incompetent ref.
Harbaugh would have literally torn that fucking dude's face off before accepting that bullshit.
Brady accepted everything, for so many reasons that are all unacceptable.
It was agony to see a coach so unable to stand up for his players and his team.
January 17th, 2016 at 2:13 PM ^
I'd like to think that Harbaugh would have a better grasp of the rules and know that he could have kept Gardner in through the expenditure of a timeout. It's hard to know for sure how that interaction would have played out, even if Harbaugh blew a gasket.
More importantly, though, I'd like to think that Harbaugh would have enough imagination to know that he could have subbed another player in for Gardner other than Morris, even if he couldn't convince the ref to allow him to keep Gardner in with the use of a timeout. I'd also like to think Harbaugh would have the situational awareness to know that Morris was likely suffering from more than just an injured leg (which is what Hoke claimed to be the extent of his understanding of Morris' medical condition, at the time). I don't know if it's a headset issue, a general lack of communication with his staff, or just a lack of awareness, in general. But I don't see how 100,000 people in the stadium and millions of viewers at home saw Morris take a head shot, but no decision makers on the sideline or in the press box were able assess the situation and get word to Hoke.
I don't know why I'm even bothering to rehash conversations that were held on this blog ad infinitum a year and a half ago. But clearly there is a lack of understanding on the part of some people that are defending a huge error that was made by Hoke's staff that endangered the life of a player on the team.
I don't think that error means that Hoke should never coach again, nor do I think that he doesn't have the ability to learn from his mistakes. But you can't whitewash the events of the Minnesota game, which was a complete debacle. John U Bacon did not totally exonerate Hoke in any way.
January 16th, 2016 at 5:39 PM ^
January 16th, 2016 at 5:39 PM ^
I hope he does well.
January 16th, 2016 at 5:59 PM ^
Hoke is a good man. I wish him well ... unless Oregon plays Michigan.
January 16th, 2016 at 5:39 PM ^
January 16th, 2016 at 6:56 PM ^
as long as Oregon keeps the offense clicking the defense never really has to be an anchor of the team. They were 120+ in several defensive statistics this year I believe. Couple that with Brady's proven ability to develop D-linemen and the fact that his defenses were always good here. If he can bring Oregon into the 30-50 overall range overall he'll be kept a long time
January 16th, 2016 at 7:33 PM ^
January 17th, 2016 at 12:03 AM ^
I would think he'd work on defending whatever offense they were up against that week.
January 16th, 2016 at 5:40 PM ^
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