I think Hoke is going to turn out to be a damn good coach. I'm so happy that he sees Denard as our QB not just an athlete. Time to do the Hokey pokey.
Hoke on Denard "He can be our QB"
I'm sure I am in the minority here, but I really think it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if Denard transfered.
Yes, I'm sure Hoke/Borgess will try to incorporate some spread stuff, but they are not going to run a read option spread to keep Denard. Therefore, Denard will have to be a pocket passer first and a runner 2nd. From what I observed this year, Denard was a spectacular runner and also hit many big plays when his primary reciever was wide open due to his threat of the runner. However, when D-Rob was forced to read the defense and go to his 2nd or 3rd option it often resulted in INTs.
As an opponent, I would much rather face D-Rob in a pro-style offense than Garder.
Just one Spartan's opinion.
Now, of course Hoke should try to keep Denard on the team, but what if he convinces D-Rob to stay but then Gardner beats him out and Hoke asks D-Rob to change positions. This could be a touchy spot. I know Denard is a great kid, but he may feel like the rug had been pulled out from under him.
It will be interesting to follow, but if Denard transfers I don't think it would be doom and gloom.
p.s. Was anyone else waiting for Hoke to take a guitar and smash it over Drew Sharp's head like Bluto from Animal House.?
for 2011: no
we would probably be doomed if we lost both tate and denard. devin is the answer in 1 or 2 more years
But look forward to Denard killing opponents for another 2 seasons!
Denard is a true sophomore. Please show me a true sophomore that doesn't have problems cycling through his reads. I seem to remember Cousins having the same sorts of issues last year, and you saw the progress he made this season. I think Denard was on par or better throwing the ball than just about any sophomore QB in the country, and if he makes even half the leap next year that he made between his freshman and sophomore years, his efficiency solely as a passer will be scary. Combine that with his running ability, and a coach that teaches him how to tuck it and run when his receivers aren't open, and he will be absolutely devastating.
agreed, when cousins was a RS freshman, same age as denard he looked lost as a QB.. Denard will get better, we haven't had an upperclassmen since Henne...
It will be nice to have Denard back there with plenty of experience. Devin is obviously a better pure passer, but denard just needs some reps and i think we all know he will put in the hard work to learn hoke's offensive scheme in the off season.
It would be the worst thing in the world, ok? It would literally be the worst f***ing thing in the world.
Stop trying to be so damn rational.
What you obviously don't know as a Sparty fan is that Denard is the heart and soul of this team. Hoke will be here beyond 2012, but for the next two years, Denard is the team leader on a peer basis. Virtually as important as his dilithium charged speed is the incredible person that he is and the way he inspires all his teammates.
Watching Denard lead Crisler Arena in The Victors on Wednesday night was absolutely phenomanal. That whole episode not only convinced me that he is staying, but he is Blue through and through and is the absolute leader of this team right now. His leadership ability alone is enough of a reason to keep him at QB.
I agree. Denard is the leader of this team, which is why it's so imperative that we keep him on board. If he were to transfer, then I could see that "making it OK" for other guys to transfer, leading to a mass exodus.
Seems like nothing to worry about though, as Denard is all in for Michigan, and not just its coach.
Avatar, not so much. Welcome anyway.
Devin is the future, Denard is the present.
Our true sophomore QB just put up 4,272 yards of offense and 32 total TD's. He had a higher passer efficiency rating than any season of Chad Henne's career AND led the Big Ten in rushing. Anyone acting like there is a better option anywhere in college football, much less on the current Michigan roster needs to stop smoking drugs.
But perhaps the biggest DOOM possibility of it, is the fact that if he does transfer, we are left with a Redshirt Freshman who is unproven (although a stud who, theoretically at least could be better than Denard with Hoke at the helm) and DOOOOOOOOOOOM.
If Denard transfers, we are one torn ACL or broken leg from Threet/Sheridan Round 2.
From above (I don't know how to put this in a yellow box): "From what I observed this year, Denard was a spectacular runner and also hit many big plays when his primary reciever was wide open due to his threat of the runner. However, when D-Rob was forced to read the defense and go to his 2nd or 3rd option it often resulted in INTs."
I assume since you're an MSU fan that a lot of what you saw of Denard this year was UM vs. MSU (and highlights of other UM games). The MSU game was definitely not his best game, in fact, it was arguably his worst of the year, especially in terms of passing.
I don't deny that Denard needs to improve as a passer, but he was able to deliver the ball on the money in tight windows at times as well. He just needs to develop some consistency in his throwing. The other point (made above), that he is only a true sophomore, leads me to think that his passing will continue to improve.
My hope is that Hoke/Borges incorporate spread elements to customize the position for Denard, and it works so well that it becomes our permament offense. Wishful thinking perhaps, but certainly possible.
I second this, I always have liked teams with dual threat QB's more, they're much more dynamic and exciting. At the college level, the threat of injury is much less when compared to the NFL, and even less when you have a guy like DG a.k.a. VY 2.0.
Niiiiiice. Shoelace will go a long way to getting us wins this season. And it should be pretty obvious. Knowing what a big Michigan fan Hoke is, I'm sure he's watched more than enough games this year to realize that.
was so used to the same ole regime that when Rod came in and blew up the program, they figured that all coaching changes are like that. Sure, every change will have attrition, but not a complete blow-up of styles, etc...
Not all changes are that way. It has been said many times, the best coaches take the players they have and adjust, not make the players change immediately. I think that is what Hoke will do.
I will caution, though, I doubt we will know the real cost of attrition till after spring ball, when the depth chart picture comes into clearer focus.
Is Denard best at QB if we don't run the spread though? I have my doubts. He is a superb spread QB, but if they start running a more traditional offense I don't know if he is the best QB anymore. Also, his best shot at the pros probably is at another position. I really hope he stays because he is an incredible athlete and weapon no matter where he plays, but I honestly don't know if he is our best option at QB if we aren't running the spread.
Denard is the quarterback of this football team. Period.
I realize I will taking a neging for this, but that's fine.
Why do I have to just stop? Why can't I have an opinion? I love Denard, I think he seems like a great person and is obviously an incredible athlete. Why can't I have an opinion that in a pro-style offense he may not be the best QB on the team? Which by the way, a whole lot of college coaches agree with me because only spread teams recruited him as a QB and Steve Sharik in his diary says what may be best for Denard is a trasnfer to Oregon.
I am not bashing Denard, I want him to stay desperately. In fact, I hope we run an offense that suits his skills so that we keep him at QB. But if, and only if, we run a pro-style offense, I think that Denard might not be our best QB, I think DG or someone might be better in that system. And if Denard isn't the starting QB, which in that scenario it's possible he won't be, then why not put the best athlete on the team on the field in another capacity? The "group think" that the point system creates can be really annoying sometimes.
I am not hating on Denard, I don't want him to transfer, I fully support the team and Denard. I am just sharing my opinion that it's POSSIBLE Denard isn't the best QB on the team if we use a pro-style offense. For everyone to get their panties in a bunch about that pretty reasonable suggestion is crazy to me.
And all the comparisons below to Vick are fairly irrelevant. Sure, they are both mobile and athletic QB's, but that doesn't mean Denard is Vick or Vick is Denard.
it seems like Denard can throw the football, just needs to work more on accuracy which I'm pretty positive he will be doing that this off season. Plus do we have anyone else on the team as of now that can be better than him? I would rather have Denard than any other guys on the bench. DGardner will be good, but he falls in the same boat as Denard just taller.
Denard can probably be very good in a pocket passing situation. Most of his errant throws were on the run or running from a DE. It seemed like when he did drop back to pass with time he was on the money.
Think back to that pass Denard threw to Martavius in the Gator Bowl. That shows you his potential as a pocket passer. Add in the running ability and there are hybrid offenses that can use him almost to the max. After last year, I'm not sure he can take the pounding of being the first running option anyway.
Denard is a QB - he threw for nearly 2000 yards, while being the feature running back too. doesn't matter what O you run, as has been discussed elsewhere all over this board, Michael Vick wasn't featured in a spread - a great athlete like that can make a non-spread much more dynamic. everything doesn't have to be option read.
The Hokester will find the right way to use him. Denard for Heisman 2011!
Denard threw for 2570 yards this season. Also, ran for 1702. Impressive, and has never been done before.
I think it does sort of matter what offense you run, especially in light of the fact that he's spent his first two years at Michigan learning and practicing an advanced spread concept. He is a special athlete and player, and while talent overcomes a lot, it is still important to find a system that will better utilize his skill set. This is not to say Hoke et al need to run a spread for Denard to be effective, but it's a bit naive to assume you can just drop him in to a Pro Style with a FB and 2 TEs and expect production similar to what he put up last season.
Yes, he threw for over 2k yards and had a lot of stats as a QB in a spread system. That doesn't mean he will have similar success in a pro-style system. Look at the numbers all the QB's for Tech had over the years. How many of them had any success in the NFL in a pro system? Zero. The system matters.
Don't you have any recollection of the "mobile QB" issue?
For so long, we would face a somewhat mobile drop-back passer who, when the play broke down, could shred us for 9 yards on a 3rd and 7. Think about Denard in that situation (especially if his passing continues to improve):
1) If they stack the line to prevent him running, he distributes the ball to receivers in single coverage (which is usually a receiver win), or
2) If they play two-deep coverage and rush 3 (or even 4), he runs for first downs on every play and TD's on occasion.
The offense doesn't have to be Shoelace running first for him to tons of success.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "QB's for Tech," but most NFL teams have some form of the wildcat that they use with differing levels of frequency.
Texas Tech is what I meant. Should have been more clear. Point being, Every year Texas Tech QB's would put up an insane amount of passing yards and TD's. Was it because they were insanely awesome QBs? No, the system did that. They didn't make it in the NFL, often times not even picked up. The system matters. So to say, "oh well look at the passing yards Denard had so obviously he can pass" is an invalid argument. The spread aided his passing numbers because teams were so freaked out about the run. Is it possible that Denard can be a good pro style QB? Of course, he is a fantastic athlete. Do I think that is the most likely outcome? No, honeslty I don't. But I know one thing, his numbers within the spread have zero bearing on his numbers in a pro-style offense.
When Denard was in the pocket, he was at his worst.
But, I will say that Hoke should be able to land a superb QB coach (Loeffler...fingers crossed) who can help develop that aspect of his game. Sure, Tall did a good job, but I'd imagine (conjecture) that Tall had limited experiences with true pocket passing.
I can see an offense that is similar to what the Eagles run with Vick... a West-Coast style that calls for short, quick routes, a homerun ball here or there, and Denard scrambling around.
Mike Vick is pretty OK this year in a pro style offense.
In addition to his ability as a football player, I hope he stays because of the person he is, which is the reason I wish him nothing but good things in life. His character and humility are very refreshing. He is loved by his teammates for reasons that go way beyond his 40 yard times.
Amen! His leadership during this change is just as valuable as his ability. If he says, works hard on the new offense, his teammates will rally around him.
I think opposing coaches will have a harder time prepping for UM. With the spread, they knew what they were getting. Now, if Denard does stay, they know there will be specfici Denard designed run elements, but no real clue how it will all be incorporated.
Last night at the bball game, the video screen showed Denard sitting in the stands. People started cheering, and Denard started clapping along, smiling of course, then pointed right to Coach Hoke (courtside), who was standing and clapping. Hoke then pointed back at Denard and they were smiling and nodding, cheering, etc.
It was a cool moment, and an impromptu exchange that I don't think would happen if there weren't something positive going on there. I'm optimistic.
I didn't see that much, damn B1G Network, but I did see Denard clapping and smiling. That smile lit up Crisler last night. I definitely think that could be a great relationship.
Would somebody give the guy more than a fucking day to start making a bunch of assumptions about what's going to happen with Denard?
Up to this point I haven't heard Hoke say he thinks Denard can be a QB. The fact that he came out and said Denard is a QB and he is willing to adapt his scheme goes a long way to Denard choosing to stay here.
I think he was referring to the "customizeable spread sets" assumption.
Not aimed at you at all; it's the "basketball on grass" people that are freaking out about him leaving. Hoke's not an idiot; Robinson is popular and a superstar and I'm sure he'll do whatever he can to keep him on board.
Sorry about that. I misread your comment.
I took that comment and the comment Hoke made about defense wins championships, as a shot at RR and Gerg's soft on the field product.
Yeah, Hoke is kind of an X factor since most of fans know so little about him. Hearing that at least puts to rest speculation he'd try to move Denard to a back or slot receiver or something insane like that.
Could we stop acting like a particular version of the spread offense is the only way to effectively use a dual-threat QB like Denard.
Any offense that makes him the QB and lets him throw the ball a lot and run the ball a lot will be successful. The kid is the truth and only dumbass internet posters think there is any chance of Hoke moving him away from the quarterback position or forcing him to stand in the pocket on every play and never run with the football.
I agree with you but isn't this what Tressel did with Pryor a lot the first couple years? Trying to make him something he wasn't?
That's what Pryor wanted. To groom himself as a pro QB. It's not what Denard wants. Though if it is, we certainly can do that too at this point.
This is what I am on board with. He's shown the ability to 1) improve, and 2) work hard. Combined with special innate ability (strong arm, freaky legs) and he can excel in any system
Please don't compare Pryor to Denard ever again.
I'm not comparing Pryor to Denard, I'm just stating that it's possible that a coach could potentially not best utilize the talents of a dual threat quarterback.
I know, I just hate seeing their names next to each other unless its something like: Pryor smells Denard's farts as he flies by him
Pryor has been reluctant to run with the football in favor of standing in the pocket and trying to read defenses and pick them apart (something he isn't very good at). My point is that Denard can be utilized as a dual threat QB in ways that don't involve multiple wide receiver sets and zone read principles. Beamer didn't run the spread with Mike Vick, but he was still put in loads of positions where he could excel with his combination of throwing and running ability.
This is great news.
if you can't work a Denard into your O as a QB you should not be coaching
he has enormous talent
Xs and Os are not as important as execution and toughness
I'm seeing Hoke as a potentially fabulous, inspirational manager, in the Lloyd mode. He DOESN'T have to be an X's and O's genius.
Now, I'm just praying that Denard really buys in. Despite all the positive talk, he is going to have to live with all a while to sort out his feelings and prospects. The fact that RR isn't taking up the reins anywhere right now helps. And I think that Denard really loves it in A2, and would like to make it work.
Also, FWIW--and despite his strong desire to be a QB--I don't think he is necessarily and NFL QB. So it is not as though he is ruining his pro prospects if he stays.
I don't want to say I think Denard will be a great NFL QB, but unlike many I haven't given up on that idea. Denard was just a Sophomore this year and is an extremely hard worker. Mike Vick is only 6'0" so its not completely out of the realm of possibility if Denard bulks up a bit and gets tutelage of a QB coach like Loeffler if Hoke is able to bring someone like that on board.
Again, it's unlikely maybe that Denard could be an NFL QB but I don't think it is completely impossible yet.
Hopefully, Al Borges has some secret X&O wizardry in his pocket. Or can at least buy RRod's tapes on running the Spread'n'Shred and modify it to something he's comfortable with.
I for one loved what denard did last yr in the spread. I also think if hoke implements more of a drop back approach with a few spread plays in there we'll see much of the same, dare i say maybe better results. Denard obviously improved drastically with his throwing game in one off season. Imagine what his second one will bring. Now I think the big thing he has to work on is decision making. If he gets that down then when he drops back, if no one is open with in a few seconds he takes off running like we know denard can and will. Designed pass play with a pocket, LBs dropping back and CBs/Ss chasing our recievers don't you think the running lines will be HUGE? I'm sure i'll be hated for this thought though haha
I think this approach can be very successful as long as the OC isn't a complete idiot in the spread. I have to say that I thought our playbook last year was actually pretty bland. I would like to see some diversity.
I spent much of last sseason wondering why Denard didn't take off running more when his receivers were covered. He finally started doing it in the last 2 or 3 games to great effect non designed QB draws. I hope he will be coached to do this more often.
I think one thing you can definitely say about Hoke is that he's going to be far more open minded as a coach than Rich Rod or Lloyd were in terms of how he's going to run his team. He knows that despite this initial Michigan Man lovefest, he's going to start getting buried in the media and by the fan base if he doesn't win, and win now. He understands the urgency of what's going on here and if he needs to run a more spread-like offense, he'll do it.
My personal forecast (even though making assumptions right now is ridiculous, per aquaman) is that whatever offensive system we are running, we are going to see a lot of quick throws from Denard and we're going to still see our share of designed runs from him. However, there's going to be a lot greater emphasis on the running game from our actual running backs, and that can only be good for Denard's health as the season goes on. We need more balance there, and the threat of Denard's running is still going to make defenses prepare a lot, even if he carries the ball less.
and I hope Hoke has a couple of big fullbacks he can bring over from SDSU's recruiting class. to keep Denard's jersey clean on blitzes, and to open holes for him...
I can go back to work now, now that I've had a solid Denard update today...
...if he had said, "Denard will be our QB."
Carr's staffs in the past told both Jermaine Gonzalez and Antonio Bass that they could be the QB at Michigan, even though, imo, they never had any real intention of playing them there b/c they knew those guys couldn't do what guys like Brady, Henson, Navarre, and Henne could do in their offense. Going to Michigan was not in the best interests of Gonzalez or Bass, imo.
Rodriguez never would have said that, either. Its always a competition among the QBs on the roster. To say anything else is an insult to Devin (and any other QBs we may have).
First and foremost, you want to make sure you're utilizing your personnel in the best way. You don't want to put a square peg in a round hole. I think sometimes coaches make a mistake that, you know "I'm gonna do what I need to do no matter what," and sometimes you gotta step back from that. This is never gonna be about the coaches, it's gonna be about the guys who are playing, and who gives your program, your team, the best opportunity to be successful. . . . There's difference ways to do things, the spread, and different types of spread . . . we've been able, because of the personnel, to do a lot of those things, and Denard fits right in there with what we'd like to do.
There's no parsing those words. He will adjust to the players he has. Thank god, and step away from the ledge.
it's just that our recievers drop half of his passes.
QB IMHO. His H.S. coach said that Denard is going to ask BH about the system, and that he doesn't want to run a pro-set that wouldn't take advantage of Denards main weapon...his legs.
This guy has done nothing but say the right things ever since he stepped on campus. If he coaches and recruits half as well as he talks I'd say things are looking up for Michigan.
I am glad to see that early signs show Denard might be staying. Any talk of him transferring or changing positions is bad for Michigan. With Tate being gone who would Gardner's backup be if Denard left or changed positions? I think Michigan should continue to run the spread and also look at how Marty uses Vick in Philly. Denard could be deadly on bootlegs and sprint outs. I think sometimes people forget that last year was Denard's first year starting at qb. Of course mistakes and bad throws especially in the red zone are going to happen.
The only thing that will change is the order of progression. This will not be qb run first option. RB handoffs, short screen passes, tight end passes, ect. first will then allow him to use his speed when plays break down. I think this will be a hell of an offense when teams can't key on his running.
Reading coverage and finding passing lanes are his issues in the pocket. If Hoke can build in those skills, then great! Denard has the work ethic to learn and improve at anything. His height will always be an issue, but Troy Smith was short too. Chances are probably low that it works out, but Denard has made one quantum leap already; maybe he has another in him.
If Denard doesn't work out in this offense or transfers, I have all the faith in the world in DG.
Cheers to that. There was a reason why so many great teams wanted Gardner as a QB. A year ago, many or most of us assumed Gardner would be pushing to start in 2011. If both QBs stay, great. Doubly excellent. If Denard leaves, it will be a sad day. But hardly doomsday.
Unless DG gets hurt.
On this board, Hoke was debited about eight months before he was hired. So really, it's already September 1st and the clock is running. We had better be 12-0 & headed for the NCS by next Monday (that's thenend of November, MGoBlog-Hoke time) with the number 1 2012 recruiting class or else. I blog here & by God, I WANT RESULTS. NOW.
ESPN just said Hokes primary concern is keeping Denard from jumping to the NFL.
You want Denard Robinson to be your qb? Fine. But use him intelligently.
1. They should watch the Philadelphia Eagles offense. We have pretty similar personnel. The Eagles use 5'9" Desean Jackson very creatively on underneath routes and as a deep threat(Odoms) as well as 6'1" deep threat Jeremy Maclin (Stonum). They also have a strong third down and red zone receiver in Jason Avant (Hemingway) and a playmaking tight end in the seams (Koger). In addition, like us, they have a quarterback who at any time is one of the fastest players on the field. They do many creative things to get him outside the pocket, on the move, and even draw up some running plays for him to mix things up as well. The only true dual-threat qb in the NFL.
2. Be creative. Talk to Rodriguez. You don't wanna use spread option, that's fine. But talk to the creative minds. Figure out how to get Denard 10-12 rushes a game to keep the defense off balance.
3. Denard will need a lot of work as a passer. Some of the most gifted NFL qb's have struggled running the WCO. Accuracy and mechanics need to improve tenfold, as does his ability to make reads. They need to get a very good qb coach.
Semi-related question: Anyone have an opinion on we never once got to see a version of what my friends and I came to call the WolverCat? Tate under center and Denard at RB? Obviously this shouldn't have been the number one or two or even three option, but I kept thinking all season that they'd show it to us at least once or twice as things got increasingly desperate.
(Sorry, network issue caused this to appear not to have been posted so I reposted it),,,
Holy shit! The reigning big ten offensive player of the year, who plays QB, is good enough to play QB for michigan?
My mind is blown.
Semi-related question: Does anyone have an opinion on why we never, even in our most desperate times, saw what my friends and I came to call “The WolverCat?” That is, Tate under center with Denard lined up as an RB (or reverse it if you want, I guess, but that wouldn’t make half as much sense). It’s obviously not something that you’d do as your first, second or third option, but as things got increasingly dire as the season progressed I thought they’d mix it in just to provide a fresh look. Never happened. Why? (“You’re dumb” isn’t the answer I’m looking for here.)
A tantalizing followup would be whether something similar could be run with Denard and Devin could be run this upcoming season.
and he will be the starting QB next season (please don't leave !). However I think that a new coach may actually help Denard become an even more complete QB. He has a great arm and has shown touch ... his height makes his "reads" tougher than if he was 6"6" (ala - Cam) ... but I didn't see a huge improvement from the start of the season to the end. His pure raw talent was his primary source of his greatness.
Just maybe, if Hoke has a good QB coach (aka - Scott Loffler) we'll see an even more dangerous Denard !!!
Go Blue !
in a Tim Tebow like freshman year attack where they rotated Tim in for certain plays. Denard is the lead QB, but Devin has some skills and he is BIG. We could use that size on certain short yardage plays, or even bring him in with Denard in the slot. Devin could throw it, run it or dump off to Denard.
We not only need Denard here for his skills mostly for the damn good kid he is. How refreshing to see someone that talented, yet so humble. Love the kid. I think he and coach Hoke are going to be buds.
I just asked that in this same thread, although it was partly backwards-looking (Tate and Denard) as well. Weird.
With the option to view specific comments.
It's a pain in the neck to read through a 100+ comment thread for the 5 new comments.
I don't know what that comment is doing in this thread, but here is a suggestion:
Try the comment viewing options at the bottom of the thread. Change it to "date-newest first." Then, you will get to see the newest comments first. Sounds pretty easy to me.
For fuck's sake, Denard was the Big Ten Offensive Player of the Year as a sophomore. Over Pryor, Cousins, Stanzi and the 3-headed RB Monster at Wisconsin. Translation: he's a fantastic football player. His abilities exceed the system the he was playing in.
I would invite our opponents to assume that he won't be effective in any other system. Please. Go ahead. Jump to that conclusion.
Hoke better adjust to his personnel. His staff decisions are also vital. Being surrounded by good coaching is vital for a head coach. Just ask Rich Rodriguez...
am very happy so far.If we can keep most of are players we will have a good season next year.