Heretical/Serious question: Does Barwis deserve the hype?
It is a measure of his reputation that this question can even be raised. Most S&C coaches are anonymous to all but the close followers of a team, and are not noticed much unless there is a weakness or problem.
In the dim, pre-Barwis, Carr era, the thing above all else that I was most outraged by were comments from opposing players to the effect of "we knew they'd get tired in the 4th quarter" or "they were gassed at the end of the game." We heard this often, even after The Horror, and to hear that from an App St. player was the ultimate indictment of the Gittleson tenure.
So we all were thrilled at Barwis' arrival, and I continue to be glad he is here. And while many trolls make snarky comments about him, we know that our two year losing record isn't really a reflection on any S&C coach, being far more about talent, experience, position coaching, etc. I will caveat the issue with this: I assume it is tough for any fan to really measure how fit and strong a team is, let alone how that translates into winning on the field. The coaches are the only ones with the expertise to do so.
With that aside, do you believe there is evidence to show that Barwis deserves his high profile?
EDIT: to be clear, I'm not asking if he is good, I assume from player comments that he is. I'm asking if he deserves the extra money and reputation that puts him above other good S&C coaches.
December 2nd, 2009 at 3:18 PM ^
man that gets me so pumped up.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:37 AM ^
Whoa! easy now . . . easy!
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:45 AM ^
I'm guilty of speculating the same way you are wolverine1987, mostly because I'm accustomed to hearing criticisms of the S&C world. Growing up my mother was a Physical Therapist for an NFL club and she would complain that improper lifting regiments were leaving many athletes susceptible to some serious injuries. That was definitely a different era though, and evidenced from the youtube video where Barwis discusses his techniques things have come a long way.
I take some comfort in the fact that Barwis is holding summer workout camps that are being attended by some prominent former M players. I can remember reading that Jack Johnson and Braylon Edwards in particular raved about his workouts.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:46 AM ^
Graham said it best, (liberal use of quotes, but it was close to this), "I had no idea how out of shape I was until he got here."
I'm really looking forward to noticeable strides made by some of the young guys this coming year. Roundtree has commented on how little he was coming in and how far he has to go, obviously Tate has a ways to go...is it even possible Martin can become more of a beast?
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:26 AM ^
One negative/concern of Martin while he was being recruited was that he had already hit his peak strength-wise. Obviously, we've seen this not to be the case. (Eeeeeeee Barwis!) So yes, I think it is possible that Martin can become more of a beast.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:46 AM ^
I would point to the fact that several professional athletes go to him on a regular basis. I would take that to indicate he must be pretty good at what he is doing. I don't remember hearing too much about people going to Coach Gittelson once they left UM.
I do think people over-rate strength and conditionining in terms of sports. It is important, but I would also assume that most DI athletes are in relatively good physical shape or they wouldn't be DI athletes. It is not, nor should it be, the end all of be all of sports or competition.
For Example (This is silly, but I like it anyway. You can take the world's most physically fit chicken and put him in a room with the world's laziest and slowest lion and I'm pretty certain your going to have instant McNuggets every time (This is from some stupid TV show in the 80's - but this is the only line I remember)
Barwis is a good piece, but is only a single piece of what is needed to be successful
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:50 AM ^
Mike Barwis is not only a great strength and conditioning coach, but he provides another opportunity to build team unity. I'm sure the workouts the players do are tremendous, and that sort of strain is both mental and physical. I don't think his leadership role in the team is a question.
He's on the sidelines, firing guys up. He's in the locker room for the speeches, he goes to church with the kids. He's the man and we're lucky to have him.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:51 AM ^
Barwis has raised Michigan's S & C program to an elite level in college football. When players commit to Michigan, he is one of the first people mentioned as being part of the decision (Cullen Christian did so last week).
Plus, the team plays quicker and more athletic than in the past. Now all is needed is MORE PLAYERS and recruits to be in the program to see the results.
Mike Barwis deserves the accolades he receives. He does a fine job.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:52 AM ^
I think this coming year will tell us a lot. There a number of guys that need to add a good amount of bulk/strength (ie. Roh, Tate, Denard, Lewan, etc.). I will be very interested to see how a lot of these guys look next fall.
I think their stamina/conditioning was adequate this year, I think the lack of size/strength were much bigger factors in the second halves of games.
December 2nd, 2009 at 12:27 PM ^
Wouldn't size/strength be relatively constant as a factor during the first and second halves of a game? Are the players shrinking at halftime?
December 2nd, 2009 at 2:59 PM ^
that in the past it was more of an issue in second halves of games or he could be referring to the true freshmen who came in and played who had more issues in the second halves of games.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:54 AM ^
Mike Barwis ate Mike Tysons children...thats saying something
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:57 AM ^
NO. I didn't see us wear a single team out in the second half of any game this season. I also didn't see any speed improvement from year 1 to year 2. Until proven otherwise this guy is all talk.
December 2nd, 2009 at 12:00 PM ^
1. Speed is half conditioning and half talent. You can't turn a walk-on into a OMG shirtless...unless Barwis has an achilles-stretching machine.
2. A team with superior execution, and players to do it well, overshadows superior conditioning.
3. All talk is a bit misleading. When the man talks, your chest automatically expands. It's true.
December 2nd, 2009 at 12:29 PM ^
why doesnt rich rod try and get more of the skill players on the track team? I understand that talent and natural born athleticism are needed, but some speed can be taught by learning technique and repetition. Back in high school i was in pretty good shape from playing hockey year round, and I needed short fast bursts of speed playing winger, but I decided to run track and found that with training in the 100 meter i got faster from my first year to second just from learning and repetition, which translated (somewhat) to faster bursts on the ice, although im sure it would translate much better to football since both sports have shoes and the same running motion.
December 2nd, 2009 at 2:43 PM ^
If you're talking about just getting players to serve as human darts and show off straight-line speed, then that's fair. But I think you're claiming that speed is a precursor for quickness, shiftiness, etc.
Additionally, I'm pretty sure the S&C coaches at every other school around the country are teaching their kids speed drills. So, speed drills + talent > speed drills + walk-on.
December 2nd, 2009 at 3:19 PM ^
I would think a big part of it is that we have a pretty high-level track team, and most of the athletes on it are less interested in pursuing high-level athletic careers in their own sports.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:59 AM ^
Unfortunately, it's tough to argue that we've been physically superior in the second half of games. For example, Wiscy really grinded us down, and we got outscored pretty bad in the second half.
To be honest, I think S&C isn't quite as important as talent and experience. Carr still won a lot of games with a S&C coach that is generally thought of as inferior, and RichRod hasn't won anything (at UM) with a S&C who may be the best in the business.
I think the effect of a S&C program is only realized in the long run. For example, how many games do you think Carr lost because of S&C? Perhaps one every year? I think the flip side is that good S&C probably won't add many more wins.
But if you wanna be the best, you gotta work for every win you can get, so it's still crucial that we have a good S&C program in place.
December 2nd, 2009 at 1:42 PM ^
If there was one team this year that would grind us down in the second half, it was going to be Wisconsin. Players like Roh (young and not yet bulked up to where he needs to be) were constantly overpowered due to size alone, and there was not much anyone could do it about. Next year will hopefully show more improvement when facing highly physical teams.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:06 AM ^
Injury prevention stuff he does you'd think Brandon Minor, Carlos Brown and some others wouldn't have remained banged up all season long. I like Barwis as a person I just don't think his methods are that much better at all then any where else in the country.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:35 AM ^
Some people are going to be dinged up and injured no matter what preventative measures or workouts are done. Minor has been plagued with injuries his whole career. Carlos Brown has tendinitis (sp?)and Molks' broken foot was the result of it getting stepped on. I don't think any of these could be prevented imo.
I don't have the documents to show it but it seems as small as we were on both sides of the ball versus other teams we came out pretty good this year compared to other programs. And I could also see a considerable difference in the speed of our team from 2 years ago.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:44 AM ^
S&C really won't help prevent concussions and ankle injuries
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:45 AM ^
First, from just a few examples, especially Brown and Minor who were infamous for ongoing issues before Barwis got here, how do you blame Barwis for lack of injury prevention? I dont have the numbers, but I would guess we had relatively few players out with injury this season.
And you can't put the 2nd half losses on Barwis - I think it was probably more of a motivation and coaching adjustment issue, not that the team was spent by the end of the first half. The team seemed to execute worse because the other teams knew what was coming, not because they were spent.
And finally, what do you know of other S&C programs across the country? What are you using to make that assertion?
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:07 AM ^
Mike Barwis.
That is allyou need to know.
Seriously though, just like you can't truly judge Coach Rod's performacne at Michigan until he gets one of HIS recruiting classes to be seniors, you can't judge Barwis without seeing the entire body of work. Let's see how far the freshman he gets have come once they are seniors.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:08 AM ^
I don't think that Barwis himself is overrated, but maybe we overrated the importance of elite strength and conditioning versus plain old football talent, smarts, and technique. Looking at Will Campbell before&after pictures leaves me with little doubt that Barwis is all he's cracked up to be. It just doesn't matter if quarterbacks throw the ball into coverage and unblocked safeties&linebackers run themselves out of plays because they suck.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:12 AM ^
Barwis helped a team that was on the average of two years younger than their opponents to compete evenly with most of them, despite the opponents' advantage of two more years of chronological growth and two more years of S&C. I would consider that to be a worthy accomplishment.
Mostly, though, what Barwis has done is to replace an antiquated system with one that takes advantage of modern advances. I still contend that when we get to see a senior class that has been RR'd and Barwisized for four or five years, we will be very, very impressed.
December 2nd, 2009 at 12:42 PM ^
I'm still trying to picture non-chronological growth.
December 2nd, 2009 at 12:46 PM ^
You can have growth, or increase, in time and space. But you are right, it is difficult to conceptualize growth in space that is not accompanied by increase in times.
December 2nd, 2009 at 1:11 PM ^
That must be what is happening to my waistline.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:12 AM ^
Players were worn down in the fourth quarter this year because there was no depth to ever get them off the field. If we combined this roster with Gittleson, you would have seen a lot more people passing out and puking.
Barwis is good, he just isn't a miracle worker.
December 2nd, 2009 at 2:49 PM ^
So you're implying that Gittleson would have been taking them to a frat party and getting them drunk?
"Would you trust your child around THIS man?"
http://www.carloalvarez.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/fbl-coach-gittle…
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:13 AM ^
When I read about ex-players returning to Ann Arbor in the off-season (Braylon Edwards, Larry Foote, LaMarr Woodley) to train with Barwis, that's all I need to hear. This guy is the real deal. I never remember hearing any pro ex-players coming back to Ann Arbor to train in the off-season with Gittleson.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:22 AM ^
The players coming back does say a lot and makes me believe we will begin to see and more evidence going forward.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:24 AM ^
You forgot Justin "the traitor" Boren. Guess going to church with your S & C coach was not part of Boren's family value equation.
Pro athletes have the money to train with anyone they choose. The fact the choose Barwis tells you a lot.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:37 AM ^
And he reportedly takes no money from the pros because he knows the value they bring in recruiting. If a bunch of voyeurs like ourselves are impressed by pros coming back you have to imagine it's that much more impressive to them. After all, they will actually meet them, work with them, and get Barwisized!!!!
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:14 AM ^
I am AWESOME!!! Worth every penny if you ask me. If you choose to disagree, I will send my pet wolves after you.
Seriously though, I do believe that S&C is very important and underrated. Barwis has his workouts focus on core strength, explosiveness, and maintaining speed while building strength and muscle. I think his techniques are cutting edge, and I think that we will see improvements as these kids grow. To those who say that they haven't seen improvement is ridiculous, as most guys are bigger and stronger, and the ones who aren't are 18 and 19 year old freshmen. Wait until we have a team that has a large number of upperclassmen that have worked their entire college careers with Barwis before you say he is no better than other S&C coaches, or that no improvement has taken place. Every player that has worked with him praises him and says they are in the best shape of their lives after their time with him. That speaks for itself.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:19 AM ^
No. Barwis does not deserve the hype. At least, not until he earns it. Once Michigan football is overpowering taxed teams in the 4th quarter I'll join the chorus of "all hail Barwis".
Until that point, all we've seen is that Barwis is a noticeably motivated individual and that a lot of people respond well to him. Passion can be contagious and motivation is probably the most important factor in S & C. Barwis' ability to motivate is almost surely a good attribute, but lets talk about results. Where are they?
The best argument I've heard is Ryan Mundy. But when I watch Michigan football, as talent deficient as they are, I'm not seeing them outlast other teams. I'm not seeing (besides 5 star Brandon Graham) the players showing any above average "explosiveness".
Is the S&C program really elite? Or is this just conjecture based on a personality many people are drawn to? He is certainly a unique character, and intentionally or not, attention is drawn towards him. That doesn't necessarily mean he delivers results.
People are drawn to pay-day loans, but that doesn't mean they're a good financial decision. Player testimonials in Barwis' favor are a good thing, but lets remember these are mostly kids with limited experience. Even the NFL guys... how much do these people really know? Maybe they just enjoy the workouts and like Barwis pushing them. Or maybe they miss the college spirit and atmosphere or being BMOC... Doesn't mean he's making them better players.
Now I'm not saying Barwis is bad at his job by any means. Really, I have no idea and I suspect most of you don't either. But given the disparity between the extreme hype that Barwis got and the on-field results, I have trouble saying he's anything but overhyped.
....As a sidenote...
When I watch the Barwis video linked before ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPyST7zp5kg ) I feel a couple things but I'm not that hyped up by it. It doesn't stir my soul to rise up from my desk and go kick ass. If you look at the reaction of the players in the video, I'm not alone. Most guys are sitting or milling around aimlessly. #53 (walking in at 28 seconds) might even have a smirk on his face. Has he heard it all before?
December 2nd, 2009 at 12:58 PM ^
FWIW, he has taken true sophomores who have had to play virtually every down of each game due to depth and render them physically competitive against a group of fifth year seniors taking a breather every third play.
Certainly, nobody is making a claim that a S&C coach can or should be able to account for 4-5 wins/season, but from what I've seen, he deserves all of the praise he gets for his contributions.
December 2nd, 2009 at 2:34 PM ^
Popularity doesn't necessarily signify effectiveness. People make bad decisions all the time.
I didn't notice Michigan football being in better shape than other programs. I noticed 2nd half declines, though I can't say thats S&C's fault.
I wouldn't argue for this teams competitiveness to be a function of S&C. If you did so you're going to have more negative things to say than positive given 3-9 and 5-7, even with all the mitigating factors of system, experience, talent, depth, etc. In most games, Michigan had a talent advantage, even if they lacked experience.
Usually there isn't a big gap in fatigue between sophs and seniors. If anything the younger guys may have an advantage. Though size and strength would increase over age, and that would affect fatigue, obvs.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:20 AM ^
The fact is, Brandon Minor and Carlos Brown were injury-prone before Barwis got here. To use those two guys as evidence that Barwis isn't anything special is a bit misleading. Some people are just injury-prone, no matter what type of training they undertake.
Michigan actually stayed pretty healthy this year, I think. The only significant injuries were to Molk and Minor, really.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:27 AM ^
I think Barwis is worth the money. Is he worth the hype? Well, it depends on what hype you believe. He's not going to be the difference between 70 scholarship players and various walk-ons going 5-7 or 12-0, obviously.
But look at the workout warriors over the past couple years. Morgan Trent was one of the top performers for cornerbacks at the NFL Combine, and Will Johnson set perhaps an all-time record in the 225-lb. bench press (although it was at Michigan's Pro Day, not the Combine). Meanwhile, numerous pro players come back and say they've never worked so hard, and Brandon Graham a) was a beast all year and b) almost caught Javon Ringer from behind in 2008.
Additionally, even if his S&C program is just on par with everyone else, he's a significant reason why a lot of recruits are interested in coming here. A ton of those kids say in post-visit interviews that they were extremely impressed by Barwis.
We did not get worn down by Wisconsin because we were out of shape. We got worn down by Wisconsin because our defensive line is physically small and has no depth. We knew that coming into this year. We had two former defensive ends playing DT (Van Bergen, Banks), an undersized NT (Martin), and a true freshman LB/DE in Craig Roh who didn't enroll early.
Is he a savior? No. Is he going to be an integral part in Michigan turning around the program? Absolutely.
December 2nd, 2009 at 2:23 PM ^
He's probably an asset to the program. But many many people talk about Barwisizing recruits and turning them into bigger, faster, stronger, explosivier monsters. We'll need a few more years to see about that...
An interesting test will be if the recruits who were DBs (e.g. Mike Jones) can be converted into LBs who can stand up to Wisconsin-style running games.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:37 AM ^
started this year on D. This year will be very telling to see if the coaches and Barwis can get these guys to a bowl game. That being said there is a difference between the Leech's and the BG's. S&C and even coaching can only get you so far.. you need talent.
I have no doubt the guy is doing the best with what he has to work with.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:40 AM ^
The lineman all look so lean that I'm inclined to say yes. As another poster noted, the fact that pro players come to work w/ him (and that WVU players followed him to U of M) says a lot.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:45 AM ^
One look at Will Campbell before and after says that yes, he is worthy of the hype. Would you ever ask if normal porn is "deserving of the hype"? Why would eeeeeeBarwis-porn be any different?
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:47 AM ^
is so influential that we've created a verb to emphasize the work he does and the effect he has on the athletes.
All I know is he's less hyped than any running back Fred Jackson talks about.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:55 AM ^
I love Barwis and I think he deserves the hype, FWIW. But...
I am bitterly and (perhaps unrealistically) disappointed that the injury rates have not gone down yet. It's not just the obvious guys like Brown and Minor, who I don't blame Barwis for. It's all the others- Forcier, Shaw, Threet, Odoms, Hemingway, Stonum, Omameh, etc.
It's not just that injuries happen, that I understand. I was hoping that injuries wouldn't linger like they did under Gittleson (e.g. 2005), and I haven't seen improvement there yet. I'm a little concerned that for two years of the Barwis show seemingly every damn game somebody got dinged and then stayed that way for the rest of the season. Maybe this is unfair, I don't know.
S&C has dramatically improved, IME, and overall Barwis deserves the hype. The fitness, speed, and strength of the players is at the very least no longer a liability, and pro players coming back to work with him is a very big deal.
I just wish the injury bug would go away.
December 2nd, 2009 at 12:37 PM ^
"I just wish the injury bug would go away"
You are aware that we are talking football, right? I dont think that not having somebody get dinged every game is a realistic expectation.
December 2nd, 2009 at 2:02 PM ^
I don't mean that I expect injuries to go away, I'm just hoping that the rash of injuries goes away. Every team goes through bad seasons with injuries, but you would hope that (like turnovers) that you revert to the mean the next season.
Perhaps this is unrealistic, or perhaps because the team is so thin and inexperienced it magnifies the damage of each and every injury. I don't know.