Helmet to Helmet
Listening to Sparty fans this morning, they can't believe a personal foul was called on the helmet to helmet hit late in that game Sat night. WHAT? Last time I checked it's in the rules that any helmet to helmet is 15 yds, no questions asked. Guess now Sparty doesn't "lose" games, things just happen to them that prevent them from winning.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:34 AM ^
Meanwhile, I have never heard anyone bitch about the Crable hit on Troy...
October 26th, 2009 at 10:37 AM ^
Troy was out of bounds and it was Helmet to Helmet. It should have been 2 penalties.
October 26th, 2009 at 3:22 PM ^
I've done this 3-4 times now, but here we go:
First, Smith was definitely not out of bounds when he was hit. I've actually never heard anyone suggest that he was before now. Also, while it was helmet to helmet and it wasn't a bad call, people give Crable too much grief for this - it's difficult for a 6'6" guy running at a full sprint, without having time to form up before contact, is likely to hit a 5'10" ball carrier in the head. Ware, on the other hand, had plenty of time to adjust his angle so that he hit with his shoulders, and isn't any taller than the Iowa dude anyway.
There are plenty of other stupid moments in Crable's career (and good ones, too) ... let's not keep putting undue blame for that game on him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOmGMGUDPbk
October 26th, 2009 at 10:36 AM ^
who are these spartans you speak of? are they the same ones who are satisfied that their season is complete since they beat Michigan?
October 26th, 2009 at 11:38 AM ^
I heard they left the scoreboard lit up for a week in EL after beating us. Can anyone confirm this?
October 26th, 2009 at 1:00 PM ^
for sure. I don't think it was up for the entire week.
October 26th, 2009 at 2:35 PM ^
I don't know, but more importantly, aren't we as a nation trying to conserve resouces right now in the economic downturn? LOLZ
So much for MSU's "sustainability" initiatives.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:44 AM ^
Never said people didn't, but this isn't 2006 anymore.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:40 AM ^
Does anyone know if there is a video up of this somewhere? I was listening to the game on the radio and the announcers made it seem like this was the worst call in history. They didn't mention that it was a helmet to helmet.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:45 AM ^
The call was the right call. Ware's helmet hit the other guy's helmet. The reasonable complaint that they have is that the flag wasn't thrown until it was obvious that the hitee was f'd up.
If it's helmet to helmet, call it right away. If it's not, don't. It has nothing to do with the resulting injury. People get injured on clean plays too.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:50 AM ^
You'd rather have them make the wrong call as long as they don't call the right call a little later than usual? That doesn't seem right to me.
I guess the rule says that any hit above the shoulder pads is an illegal hit, which this was. That hit doesn't explain the other 70 some yards they gave up with a minute left.
October 26th, 2009 at 11:02 AM ^
I didn't say that I'd rather have them make the wrong call. I'm saying it seemed like they were waiting to see if the guy popped up or not.
They may have just needed to sit there and think about what they saw for 10 seconds before they made a decision, but to an MSU fan, that's probably not how it looked.
And yes, they made a lot of other mistakes on that drive. The penalty alone isn't the reason they lost, but it did account for 15 of the yards that were gained, which is definitely significant.
October 26th, 2009 at 11:22 AM ^
That the refs were thinking "Oh shit, is this dude dead?" and dropping the hankie wasn't the #1 priority for them immediately after the hit?
And, this wasn't even the final drive. Sparty scored a touchdown after this occurred, so I'm not sure why they are grasping onto this as the reason they lost, and not blaming their D for failing to stop Stanzi.
October 26th, 2009 at 12:58 PM ^
Alright, that makes more sense. I thought you were saying if you're not calling it right away don't call it at all. To that I say, nay! I actually saw a rrport of someone at the game that said they did throw the flag right away but the officials met afterwards to talk it over and then made the call. With the tv being centered on the player and not the officials I can believe that for sure. A good crew would talk it over after the penalty flag was thrown.
October 26th, 2009 at 11:03 AM ^
Looks like he led with the crown of the helmet, making it a completely valid call in my view.
October 26th, 2009 at 2:39 PM ^
Stop video around 39 seconds in. Even with your bias, you can't honestly say that while his head was level with the Iowa player's shoulderpads, he was going for a helmet to helmet hit. Well, I guess you can, but you'd be wrong.
October 26th, 2009 at 11:15 AM ^
I know that as an official, you are not supposed to make a call based on the result of a play, HOWEVER, the Iowa player being concussed is clear evidence supporting helmet to helmet contact. From the video, it was clear that no part of the defender was in a position to come in contact with the head of the receiver aside from his head. I don't know what the argument is here.
Regardless, despite this call coming in the 4th quarter, it had less bearing on the result than Sparty wants to lead on. Long after this "bad call," they scored to take a 4 pt lead with just over a minute to play. Don't b*tch when your defense surrenders a field-long 2 minute drill to lose the game.
October 26th, 2009 at 11:28 AM ^
I was listening to this on WJR and Miller and Blaha made it sound like an awful call. Miller claimed that helmet to helmet is not a penalty as long as the guy getting hit is not defenseless. Anyone ever heard of that? Didn't sound right to me when he said it.
Funny to see one of the youtube comments saying it wasn't helmet to helmet or above the shoulder pads. It's amazing what people can see when they have a bias.
October 26th, 2009 at 12:55 PM ^
Helmet-to-helmet, leading with the crown of your helmet like Ware did, is a penalty regardless.
Defenseless receiver is a separate thing. That doesn't even require helmet-to-helmet -- if you blast a defenseless receiver with your shoulder that can be a penalty too. The penalty is for targeting the defenseless player above the shoulders.
Where it isn't a penalty is if you lead with your shoulder on a regular tackle (i.e. not a defenseless player) and your helmet makes contact with the head. But it looks pretty clear to me that Ware led with the helmet.
October 26th, 2009 at 11:38 AM ^
I've heard Sparty fans complaining about the two seconds left on the clock for the last play. I find that HILARIOUS.
October 26th, 2009 at 12:23 PM ^
It was a violent hit. Textbook helmet to helmet. The fact that the kid was knocked out cold before he hit the ground should have confirmed the flag.
Dantonio ffighting the penalty so hard while it wasn't clear that the Iowa kid wasn't DEAD is disgusting.
I have had several arguments with Sparty fans about this and I refuse to back down on this. It should have been a penalty and it could have been an ejection. The officials NEED to call these things. There are dozens of catastrophic head and neck injuries every year in football.
Also..there should have been another flag for the Sparty Defender standing over the dead Iowa kid posturing.
In regard to the Crable hit...that was the right call too. I have never heard a Michigan fan get upset about that call.
Typical Sparties.
October 26th, 2009 at 12:52 PM ^
I've been listening to the Ticket all morning at work and half the callers calling in are all complaining about this helmet to helmet. There was even a supposed high referee that called in and complained about it, but after Gator put him back in his place, he backed off and admitted that it was the right call. The consensus, though, is that the call came in late, which is pretty much true. The flag was thrown after like 15 seconds after the play was over which is unacceptable. Either throw the flag or not. In this case, I think the ref was influenced by the fact that the Iowa player was lying on the field with his arms twitching. Regardless, it was a good call, if questionable b/c of the delayed reaction by the ref.
October 26th, 2009 at 1:05 PM ^
I was in a bar so I couldn't hear what was going on. I don't know why it took so long to make the call. I would have been frustrated as a fan too if that happened.
October 26th, 2009 at 1:02 PM ^
The call should have come in sooner. You could hear the
hit on video. At least they got it right.
October 26th, 2009 at 4:06 PM ^
and saw the Spartans, live and in real-time.
There's another thread that already touched on this. (Re: "Spartan Radio", and the George Blaha/Jim Miller call of the play and the penalty.) Somebody asked in that thread, if Donovan Warren had made that same hit in that same way, and was flagged for 15, would the M Faithful be complaining? And to that, I say, YOU BET that I would!
It's a bad call, in my opinion. The point of contact was the d-back's shoulder pad, hitting the front of the reciever's shoulder pad. If helmets touched each other, it was incidental to that contact. The crown of the helmet was not the hitting instrument, if such a concept is even apt. There was nothing going on "above the shoulders." Above the shoulders means the head and neck. And that just is not the case.
Are you guys saying that helmets must not, ever, so much as touch each other? If so, there's a lot of no-calls on that subject. The equipment managers must wonder how it is that so much paint from the opposition's helmets get on their guys'
helmets.
I think that the Spartans got jobbed on this call, and even worse was the fact that the call appeared to have been made only after it was seen that the Iowa reciever was not getting up. As I said elsewhere -- that just signalled to every wideout in the Conference; on a big hit, stay down, and maybe you'll get a sympathy call.
October 26th, 2009 at 2:45 PM ^
Personally, I'd love to see one of UMs players lay someone out with a hit like that. I can't remember the last time a UM player, not named Brandon Graham, put a good hit on an opponent.
October 26th, 2009 at 4:21 PM ^
I think it was a questionable call, it could have gone either way and my team got the bum wrap. But the thing I'm most pissed about it how long it took to make the call. Other than that like Section 1 said would you be bitching if that happened to Warren? Yes you would, just like the hit on Troy Smith in 06 (i think). I still know fans who complain about that call.
October 26th, 2009 at 6:26 PM ^
I was at the game, as a friend of mine is an MSU Student with no rooting interest in them outside of the novelty of a night game.
1. This was a helmet to helmet hit and should have been called. No questions asked.
2. The refs should have waited to call it and mark off the penalty yardage until the motionless Iowa player was off the field. Nothing like 74,000 Sparties booing loudly as a kid nearly has to be taken off on a stretcher (might not have seen it on TV, but the cart was out there and waiting) This isn't Philly, guys.
On a side note, when the first Iowa guy got taken off the field, the fans natural response was to do the wave as he laid motionless on the field. Classy.