The heisman candidates this year are really underwhelming. No one has stood out this year.
well that's just, like, your opinion, man
The heisman candidates this year are really underwhelming. No one has stood out this year.
I watched Manziel quite a few times and he was outstanding. Also the few times I saw Klein he was terrific and Teo was an absolute beast at LB.
But for Heisman finalists, that's a dull group.
Also - when's the last time the final Heisman group had no brothas?
/ obvs sarcastic (maybe?)
Y'know, that's a hell of an interesting question. I'd have to believe it's been a long time.
Tim Tebow, Colt McCoy, Sam Bradford.
And outside of the finalist, it was actually Graham Harrell that finished 4 with only 213 points (Tebow finished 3 with 1575, losing to Bradfor who had 1726). It took until Mike Crabtree at 5 (with 116 points).
Before then 2001 (Crouch, Grossman, Dorsey, Harrington).
Before 2001 is before 1969 it appears.
It was more recently than I would have guessed—2008, when Bradford won it. The runners-up were McCoy and Tebow; Harrell was a distant fourth, and Crabtree was behind him.
In 2001, Crouch won, and the runners-up were Grossman, Dorsey, Harrington, and Carr. Randle El was a distant sixth.
Manziel stands out in stark contrast to the others; it's his to lose. He didn't just beat Alabama, he put on a borderline mistake-free show. That's what really punched his ticket.
that he is the best Freshman to every play the game? I dont think so. I would never vote for a Freshmen.
The trophy is supposed to be awarded to "the most outstanding player in collegiate football" for the 2012 season. Saying it should never go to a freshman is akin to saying it should never go to a position other than QB or it shouldn't go to anyone outside the SEC.
Good thing you're not on the committee.
Either Manziel or Te'o are going to win, and you can't say those two guys haven't "stood out." I loathe Notre Dame football, but Te'o is the linchpin of one of the most dominant defenses we've seen in a while -- guy's a *linebacker* and is second in the country in interceptions (thanks partly to, um, Denard).
But Manziel has stood out even more, and that's why he should win. Let me give you season stat lines from two recent college QBs:
Player #1 -- Passing:
Player #2 - passing:
Player #1: 4327 total yards, 50 TDs
Player #2 -- 4600 total yards, 43 TDs
Player #1 took his team into Tuscaloosa in November and beat Saban's minions, 28-27
Player #2 took his team into Tuscaloosa in November and beat Saban's minions, 29-24
#1 is Cam Newton, #2 is Johnny Football. Manziel's stats are comparable, in some cases better, and against similarly tough competition. And if you watched the A&M-Alabama game, you know he's the reason A&M won that game. I'd hardly call that "underwhelming."
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Are buckeye fans mad. They thought for sure Braxton would get invited.
I am happy to see Miller not included (not just because he is a Buckeye) because his numbers simply weren't that great. Good? Yes. Heisman worthy? No. I don't think Klein should have made it either, btw.
It is probably Martinez from Nebraska, but yeah, Miller shouldn't be there.
That the ND love is going to over-flow and allow Teo to win. That would really suck - as we can't say Charles would be the only defensive player to win the Heisman.
If ever there was a defensive player that should win the heisman besides Woodson, it would be Teo. Just a great kid (man) and the heart and soul of his team. This might be blashphemy on this board but I personally think Teo meant more to 2012 ND than Woodson meant to 1997 Michigan.
HOWEVER... Woodson definitely is/was more talented. Juding off importance to a team is what the Heisman should be about, not simply stats.
or the best player in college football? Te'o is very good, but I don't think he's the best player in the country. Then again, the Heisman's mission statement means practically nothing in reality, so who knows what criteria everyone will use to vote.
I hear what you are saying and I respect it. But I think the Heisman should go to the player most important to his team.
For example Bush won in 2005, but many (including myself) think it should have gone to V. Young.
It just, to me, should be based not just upon athletic skill, but how you lead your team with that athletic skill.
Maybe you should make a new award where that is the criteria, but the Heisman is reserved for the most outstanding player in college football. Te'o is fantastic, but I just don't think he's quite there.
I agree that Te'o wasn't more important to his team (we can say as important I guess) and I agree he probably isn't the best player in the country, but I'm not sure any of those guys are. Menziel is exciting and made a lot of plays, but he also made some bad mistakes mostly due to his age. While he is very talented, I'm not sure he's the best. Klein may be the best of the bunch, but he's still probably not the best in college football.
I'd venture to argue the best player in college football one of the great DT that are currently playing college ball, or even one of the 'Bama O-lineman (possibly the guy who has started at G, T, and C the last three years). You could make an argument for one of USC's WRs too. The field is very even at the top, but my pick out of those three would probably be Te'o, Klein, then Menziel.
I would argue that Manziel at the end of the year is/was the best player in college football. He certainly didn't start out that way, but after a few games, he really turned it on and the mistakes plummeted.
So this stands to reason: does the Heisman winner need to put in a complete season of excellence? Are they allowed to have bad games? Are they allowed slow starts? Just something to think about.
Wait - you think Te'o means more to this year's ND team than Woodson did? You'll need to elaborate on that. Woodson was dominant on defense, offense and special teams. He took over games. What has Te'o done that makes him more important?
Senior LEADER on a great team trumps being a FREAK Athlete but just a junior.
It might just be me, but that is what makes the difference.
So only because he's one year older? Is that correct?
Well by that logic... yes.
Teo came back to Notre Dame because he said that he wanted to experience being a senior and a leader on HIS Notre Dame team.
I do not mean to take away what Woodson did for us, but a Senior Leader leading his team trumps a FREAK ATHLETE who is a junior.
All a matter of preference.
In that case, Jordan Kovacs should win the Heisman - he's a senior leader and a 5th year senior.
But you should have understood what I was meaning. Teo has the leadership skills AND the athletic superiority that few can claim to have. If you think I am an ND fan, I am not. I just think if ever there was a second Defensive player to win the Heisman, it should be Teo.
But that's not what you said. You said he meant more to his team than Woodson meant to us.
And I didn't say anything about you being an ND fan...why are you bringing that up?
I personally think that Teo is what the Heisman should be about. An extremely talented Senior leader leading his team.
Woodson was great, but he was on a Defense with so much talent that it did not rest on his shoulders alone to carry the team.
And I brought the "I am not an ND fan" thing up because I just don't want people on this blog to think I am a ND troll.
PS: I totally respect what you are saying. I am not trying to knock it down, just saying my own opinion.
Teo is what the Heisman should be about. An extremely talented Senior leader leading his team.
This is NOT what the Heisman trophy is all about. The Heisman trophy has always been very clear about being awarded to the most outstanding player in college football. Who cares what you think it should be about? That's not what this discussion entails.
Also, if you watch the games from 1997, I really don't see how you can claim that team (not just the defense) didn't rest on the shoulders of Woodson. We relied heavily on his special teams ability as well as big plays on offense and not just on his talent on defense.
My cousin repeatedly refers to the Ohio punt return as clinching the Rose bowl. Can't see how any defensive player this year has had so much impact.
"Woodson was great, but he was on a Defense with so much talent that it did not rest on his shoulders alone to carry the team."
This is a hilarious quote by you... So you are saying ND' has no other talent on the team?
Pretty sure if ND's D-Line wasn't as good as it was he wouldn't have had near the impact this year
This is some supremely awful reasoning.
Teo had 7ints as a LB. That number is absolutely insane. Also, to say that Woodson excelled in all three phases of the game is a bit odd. He returned only one kick for a TD and had some 200 yards receiving. That isn't much. CW won it based on his defensive performance, and there rest was icing on the cake, but doesn't really add anything.
I'm perfectly fine with Teo winning it, and if I had to choose another defensive player to stand with CW it would be Teo.
In UM's biggest game of the year in 1997, it was Woodson's complete game that one the game. If he only contributed in two of the three phases of the game, we would have lost. So even though Woodson didn't rack up a lot of garbage stats, he came up big when it mattered the most.
Additionally, has Teo really done anything memorable? I admit I didn't watch hardly any ND games, but I can't think of anything he did that was really special...
Whenever ND needed a stop or a big play, Te'o showed up. I've seen Te'o make a clutch interception, a bone-crushing sack, or a 4th down tackle to seal games.
I know that Te'o numbers at LB are only slightly above-average, but it is the timing of his big plays that elevates him.
You didn't see him make too many bone-crushing sacks, since he only has 1.5 on the season.
"Additionally, has Teo really done anything memorable? I admit I didn't watch hardly any ND games, but I can't think of anything he did that was really special..."
So you imply that he hasn't done anything memorable, then admit you hardly watched any games and then re-emphasize that you can't think of anything he did that was really special? You already answered why you can't recall him doing anything special...you never watched him play!
Now I understand he plays for a rival team, but everyone has to admit that this years crop of finalists is pretty bland. If there was ever a year for a defensive player to sneak in and grab the heisman, it's this year. Add to that the story lines (which aren't supposed to matter but often do) and I think he is going to win it. In fact, I hope he wins it and I don't htink it makes me a bad UM fan for doing so.
Te'o is a great player and the most dominent player on a great defense. As a LB the guy has 7 picks this year. That is a pretty damn impressive number to go along with all the physical skills he has. On that side of the ball, when ND needed a play it was almost always Te'o who made it.
Now I'm not saying I think he compares to Woodson in any way, but I think given the players he is up against he should win it this year. I think back to some of the other defensive players that have been nominated over the years only to sit beside some offensive freaks and lose...many of them would win in this years class as well. Warren Sapp comes to mind.
I would argue Ndamukong Suh was both more important to his team, and more talented than Teo, and he didn't win. Teo winning would be more an indictment of the other candidates than evidence of his worthiness in my eyes. That said Johnny Football should win this thing easy, his stats are incredible, in a very difficult league.
Suh was a beast. Didn't he have about 12 sacks as a DT and threw McCoy around like a rag doll? I think he proved that there is a strong bias toward offensive stats.
they are going to claim Teo was a PURE defensive player. Trying to diminish Woodson's achievement.
I'm the same way.. Charles earned it by playing some offense and running back kicks as well. Te'o had a great year a LB.. to me there's no comparison and he isn't deserving.
It has definitely been a strange year for Heisman candidates. There doesn't seem to be a clear front runner.
I hope Te'o doesn't win. I love him as a player, and he seems like a great person, but as outstanding as Woodson? I don't think so. Mathieu was far more outstanding and got 5th. You can argue that Suh's season was comparable to Te'o and he wasn't even close. If he wins it, it will not be about football it will be because of his personal story and because he goes to ND.
He's not going against Chuck, or Suh though. He can't help it that he might not be the best defensive player ever. The question is does he deserve the heisman this year. I wouldn't have a problem if he won it. He's been very good this year.
I don't want Teo to win it nor do I think he should, but this is 100% true.
Yea he's been great, but he only plays linebacker. He doesn't return punts/kicks or do anything on offense even as a decoy. Colin Klein essentially is the offense and Johnny took over for a first round draft pick, moved to a harder conference and his team is better than last year.
This is exactly it. This is why defensive players don't win it (and a defensive player who only plays defense has never won it). You just don't have that big of an effect on your team as a defensive player unless you're just crazy. Te'o is not crazy, he's just a great linebacker. One of the best college linebackers in a while, for sure.
He has 7 picks (tied for second in the country) for a total of 35 yards, and has never been in the endzone. He has 1.5 sacks. Ed Reynolds, the safety from Stanford (on an equally good defense, and nearly as successful team) has 6 picks for 301 yards and 3 TDs. Where is his Heisman love? A kid from Fresno State has 8 picks, 3 TDs and 4 sacks (!) which are all better than Te'o.
You need to be dynamic to win the Heisman, you need to put the team on your shoulders. I don't think Te'o has done that. I can't see someone winning the Heisman without ever sniffing the endzone.
There could be another reason defensive players don't win it. Since previous winners are voting members, and every previous winner except one plays on offense, there is likely a tendency to vote for the offensive player, more specifically, a QB or RB.
Defensive players don't win it because the stats they accumulate don't translate directly into points, with infrequent exceptions. By contrast, that's what QBs and RBs are all about, ultimately—points, and the vast majority of points in any game are scored by offensive players. And besides, defense may win championships, but offense sells tickets.
I agree I don't think a linebacker is that outstanding if he doesn't even have to rush the passer. 1.5 sacks all year. His d line is good enough that he can constantly drop into coverage. Great player though of course.
Why should he have to do something on offense to be the most outstanding football player? Why is there such a bias towards the offensive side of the ball. Johnny Manziel hasn't picked off anybody, made a sack, or returned punts. Teo has been outstanding he's played that position better than I can ever remember being it played. He's came up with some absolutely huge sacks and INTs. That team isn't undefeated without him. Also even though Klein is KSU's most important player I don't think you can discount Hubert. Overall my vote would go to Manziel because he has just been amazing, then Teo a close second, and then Lee. Personally if USC didn't suck so bad I would think about putting Lee first.
Manziel only has 1.5 sacks less than Teo.
I'm being facetious, but only a little. I wouldn't say he has "some absolutely huge sacks" when he only has 1.5. How can you say he plays the position better than anyone you've ever seen when he has the numbers more resemblant of a safety than a linebacker (yes I'm aware that numbers are only a small part of defense.)
I don't think Teo is here if his back story of what he has had to go through this year isn't attached. He got in the conversation from the MSU and Michigan games right after that happened and he had monster performances.
but wow, Klein probably should have prepared a statement. That was pretty rough to read.
Meh, not everyone is an eloquent writer and it was easy enough to read. Props to him for maybe actually writing his own statement versus letting someone else do it for him.
I went back and edited it to saying he should have prepared something. I agree the sentiment was great, but if it were me I'd want something more polished to comment on something this big.
It was fine.
What about the Yell Leaders, Johnny?
at least spell the brother's name correctly
whereas you said the far more racist brotha - RACIST!
Marqise and Braxton should have been invited. They both had phenonmenal years. The three finalists are all deserving, but I feel those other two should have at least been invited, especially Lee.
Braxton Miller, has a high ceiling, but look at his numbers compared to .. say... T-Magic
|Completion %||Comp||Attempts||Yards||TD||Int||Rushing Atts||Rushing Yards||Rushing TDs||Total Yards||Total TDs|
|Taylor w/o B1G Champ||63.3||195||308||2483||21||8||156||833||8||3316||29|
No way Te'o wins it, he is just there because ND is undefeated.
Klein blew his shot when he lost to Baylor.
Which means Manziel wins it, he's been unbelievable this year and he beat Bama, I think he deserves it.
And Manziel lost to LSU and Florida... 2 out 3 of his biggest games he was flat.
This feels like Te'o and everybody else, but nobody had really been a dominant story this year. Unless you love Johnny football, which is a fun story but doesn't feel dominant enough to be the first freshman.
To this day I still think that honor should have gone to Adrian Peterson.
He shouldn't have to be "dominant enough to be the first freshman." The award winner should have to be "dominant enough to have the best season of any other player in the country," freshman or not. In my opinion, he did just that.
Go Johnny Football. The kid is putting up ridiculous numbers against SEC defenses. He played the game of his life against one of the best defenses in the country. He deserves to break the freshman barrier. Klein plays in a league where defense is borderline nonexistent.
It would make me sick if Te'o won it just because he plays at ND. I want Woodson to retain his distinction as the only defensive player to win it. I know he'll lose that distinction at some point, but I don't want him to lose it to an ND player.
Ridiculous against who exactly? He had one good game vs Alabama and was non existent vs Florida and LSU. Loading up statson Sam Houston St is what is ridiculous.
Obvious ND troll is obvious. Don't go away mad, just go away.
Oh...as always, F*ck Notre Dame!
12 games aren't enough, since the trophy is awarded in December. T'eo 12-0, Manziel 10-2. T'eo made game changing plays in all the biggest games, Manziel was flat in 2 of 3 big games.
And in my opinion, it isn't close. He had a phenomenal season, and frankly I don't get the lukewarm reaction that many people have about him. If he doesn't win, its because A) he is a freshman, and B) he is a freshman. And that is really dumb.
That is the reason Griffin won't vote for him. I don't think he wants anyone else with a chance at multiple Heismans.
It took me a second to realize you were talking about Archie. You realized the last Heisman winner was named Griffin too, right? Kinda confusing.
RG3 was very good and could have been the second Griffin to win two.
If Manziel doesn't win, it'll only be because people won't vote him as a freshman. He SHOULD be the clear cut winner.
TELL IT TO THE PEOPLE
I can't find a handy gif, so here's a youtube video instead:
Ok based on the evidence, I've gotta give it to Manziel. Te'o is overrated, if he wasn't on ND he wouldn't be in the conversation, and while Klein is decent, he's not spectacular. Give it to Johnny Football!
Maybe you should post something from this year. When Teo was in Robinsons face all game.
You are easily the most annoying ND poster on this board. We got it, you think Te'o should win. We're all shocked.
He's still 1-3 against us though.
For God's sake, get the F*ck off our board, you Domer troll!
Maybe when you Domers stop trying to justify Te'o winning with "HE HAS SIMILAR INTERCEPTION STATS AS WOODSON!"
Funny, I never mentioned anything about Woodson. In fact in another post where someone else compared the two of them, I said that hands down Woodson was the better player. But Woodson isn't up for the Heisman this year. A QB who got smacked down by Baylor and a QB who had a great game against Alabama are Teo's competition.
which had previously been held by... Cam Newton. And before that, Tim Tebow. That doesn't seem like an easy feat.
No it doesn't.
Until you actually analyze the statistics. T'eo did it against a better body of work. There are no Sam Houston St.s, Lousiana Techs or SMUs, not to mention the dregs of the SEC.
But there were:
Navy, a horrible BC team, a bad WF team, and triple OT against a 6-6 pitt team.
I respect the schedule, but i think it's bigger in name, but most of these programs were a shell of their former selves.
only beating 6-6 Purdue by 3 points, and playing 6-6 MSU as well.
Really the only quality wins on ND's schedule were Stanford and Oklahoma. USC was having a down year, and we shot ourselves in the foot with turnovers. A true championship caliber team would've killed us in a game with 6 TOs, instead of only beaten us by 7 points. Can you imagine if we turned the ball over 6 times vs Bama? We would've lost by an additional 42 points.
Teo isn't even the most outstanding defensive player Michigan is going to face
T'eo has had an amazing year, but I find it hard to give him the Heisman. I'd find it hard to give any defensive player the Heisman. Woodson made such a strong case because he was a playmaker in every phase of the game. I think T'eo is just as much of a defensive playmaker as Woodson was, but he lacks the versatility that Woodson had. He doesn't have the ball in his hands enough. That's not his fault, but that's just the way it is.
Manziel has had so many Heisman moments this year. He beat Alabama. In Tuscaloosa. Where Alabama never loses. He broke Cam Newton's records. As a freshman. He's the fifth player in NCAA history to pass for 3,000 yards and run for 1,000.
Notre Dame would not be undefeated without T'eo, but it would still be having a solid year. A&M would be nowhere without Manziel. No freshman has ever won the award. That ends this week.
"The Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player on offense whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity."
How can you purport to recognize the single most outstanding player when routinely, every year, half of all players are excluded from serious consideration purely because they play on defense? Let's not kid ourselves—Woodson won the award because Lloyd Carr had the wisdom to let Charles play on offense. If he'd been limited to defense and kick returns, Charles wouldn't have gotten any closer to the trophy than Deion Sanders did, and Peyton would have it in his own trophy case.
The Heisman Trophy as it currently stands is an anachronism, an outdated relic from the era when all players played both ways, and for that reason I think Woodson is the only truly legit winner since two-way play disappeared, going by the Heisman Committee's own language. Of course I think that Desmond was the legit winner in '91 since he was by far the most outstanding offensive player, but only by the unspoken rule that has been in force since two-way players went the way of the dinosaurs.
Last year Luke Kuechly had as many solo tackles as Te'o does total tackles this year, and Kuechly was nowhere near the Heisman discussion. Te'o will have earned AA status, and a 1st round draft pick with a big contract, maybe even the Butkus Award (though Jarvis Jones 22.5 TFL and 12.5 sacks with only 5 fewer solo tackles against tougher competition would argue,) but he hasn't earned the Heisman this year. When A&M left the Big12 for the SEC West everybody pointed and laughed. Noone's laughing now. Manziel deserves the Heisman.
All hype, man.
Is it just me, or do others have a really empty sense of "who cares?" about this year's NC and this year's Heisman? It's the oddest thing ... normally I care more. This year? Not so much.
You would care a lot if Michigan was playing for the NC. I bet ND and Bama fans care a lot.
I bet ND and Bama fans care a lot.
Well, sure ... the home fans care. But does the rest of the country?
I guess we'll see what the ratings are for the NC game.
My sense is a lot of people are growing tired of Alabama and the SEC winning the championship. That's the risk the SEC runs with being too successful ... and my gut tells me there's a bit of tuning out of the NC chase because of it.
As for the Heisman ... only Manziel has any "buzz" this year. Klein, however good he is, is still a largely faceless player from somewhere in the middle of the country. T'eo is a great defensive linebacker, but his success is measured in what opponents don't do rather than what he does. Tackles and TFLs are all well and good ... but they don't generate the same excitement as a DB taking a pick-6 back 80 yards. Or a DB doing kickoff or punt returns and taking it to the house.
T'eo may well win the Heisman ... but if he does it's because (a) Manziel is a frosh and (b) T'eo is from ND.
Projecting this game to be one of the largest viewed games ever. Yah, I think there is some excitement here.
From what I recall Woodson won the Heisman because he truly was the most outstanding player that year. How many times did he pick the ball off when the opposing team tried to throw the ball his way? A lot.... and at least a few times right in the endzone. Not to mention the ridiculous one handed interception, get the foot in bounds, pick of the throw intended for the 3rd from against State. He made a real impact on special teams also. While his cameos on offense were memorable, I do not think they were relatively as outstanding as his defensive plays. I bet he would still won the Heisman had he not played offense.
I definitely can't see Teo justifiably even coming close to the Heisman. There have been many other dominant linebackers through the years and no one seemed to talk about them seriously.
He's only in consideration because there really isn't anyone else.
I've always believed the Heisman should only be given out the years where it was really deserved. Kinda like our #1 jersey. It should not be given out every year. Of course what would all the talking heads speculate about then?
This year is definitely one of those years that no Heisman should be given out.
But I doubt Woodson wins the Heisman without the spectacular plays he made on offense and as a kick returner. Don't forget who he had to beat out.
Did Teo go on his morman mission like he was promised when he was recruited?
I have wondered about that as well. I thought ALL Mormans were required to go on missions but T'eo did not and I can't imagine he is going to put off the NFL to go on one either. I guess he is just going to wait until he is finished with his pro career before he does his.
If you think that Michigan would have even won the Big Ten Championship—let alone the Rose Bowl and the NC—without Woodson, you're crazy.
I actually think it's less about him playing for ND and more about what he went through this year and how well publicized it was. Got him on everyone's radar an showed his mental toughness. And you know what? I'm actually fine with that. He's a good guy and will represent the trophy well given all the cheating and tomfoolery in cfb these days. Would still like Woodson to stand alone though, so go Johnny.
I understand the debate about who SHOULD win, however I am confused about the debate about who WILL win. Manziel wins this going away. Stiffarmtrophy.com...
Should be in NYC if teo made it. Dude did not get a vote? Also glad miller not making the trip to NYC.
manziel should be a sure winner. i dont think manti teo deserves to be in a class with charles woodson as the only other heisman winner to play defense.
But as much as I hate everything ND, it is hard not to be in his corner, you know, at least a little bit. He is going to be playing a Sundays for several years, barring injury.
it ws Suh.
Teo is a fantastic player, but he will not win the Heisman
Good to see that Miller wasn't invited. He's a special talent, but his numbers were incredibly underwhelming this year as far as a Heisman Trophy winner goes. I'd say his last two games were pretty pedestrian, and that's the time when Heisman trophy winners are allegedly supposed to shine the brightest.
Oh yeah, and he's a Buckeye.
Te'o is a great defensive player but there is a guy that is going to be playing against us in the Outback Bowl that, personally, I think is a better defensive player. I forgot the guys name, but there is also a chap on 'Bama that is statistically superior to Te'o. Again, not to diminish Te'o's accomplishments on the field but if you are going to give it to a purely defensive guy, Clowney and the guy from Alabama are just as dominant, if not more so, than Te'o. I understand that they play different positions on defense, but they should be in the conversation if Te'o is.