Hayes and Rawls in the EMU Game
With our RB depth rather low and no lock in the 2012 class at the RB position would it be worth burning both of their possible redshirts in these up coming games? I ask this because there was an article up on AA.com that said those two both may get a shot at some playing time in this game coming up.
I would rather try and keep them both on the sidelines if possible we have a couple of guys who look like they need some work in Fitz and Shaw plus there is Smith so I would hate to see the possiblities of redshirts used up in some garbage time on two of our more highly rated RB's from last years class.
If either of these two have been used in our two games I apologize for this post but I cannot remember seeing either of them getting on the field for our first two.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:07 PM ^
You've got to give the freshmen a shot. Fitz is too delicated to be an every down back, Smith is too small, Shaw is mediocre, and Hopkins is a liability when out there. After a week in which our RBs combines for 10 yards rushing, I'd love to see what Rawls and Hayes can do.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:11 PM ^
Right now depth for us I think is more important. Having both of these being able to redshirt for this season would be great and to burn a redshirt in mop up time when we already have 4 to 5 backs who can carry the ball would seem to be a waste IMO.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:14 PM ^
although some of it is the line being asked to do something they're not made to do
September 14th, 2011 at 5:20 PM ^
This is sarcasm, right? The RBs were ineffective last year, too, under RRs genius zone blocking scheme. The Oline is being asked to do something "they're not made to"? What? Block?
September 14th, 2011 at 5:13 PM ^
There's a long list of small NFL and NCAA backs who were very successful.
Smith's shown to be the one back Michigan has that doesn't get dinged on a regular basis.
I'm not sure there's any legitimate concern with Smith as the primary back other than his lack of elite speed.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:25 PM ^
It's more than just height that defines you as "small." Backs like Barry Sanders and Maurice Jones-Drew have way thicker frames than Smith has along with massive leg muscles.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:28 PM ^
I don't think anyone here is calling Smith an every down back but as the poster above stated he is a "gamer". He has taken plenty of hits and gotten back up ready to play so his size is not a major concern IMO. He can carry 15 to 20 times in a game and be a productive player if used in the correct game plan.
September 15th, 2011 at 7:30 AM ^
Please tell me which play you saw ANY type of hole for either Shaw or Hopkins to run through last Saturday. That's what I thought, there weren't any holes. Our OL did a decent job of pass blocking, but the run blocking was TURRIBLE.
Our current backs will be fine when they have a crease to run through. With regard to Hopkins, I'm more concerned with ball security.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:07 PM ^
This was the most frustrating thing to me about the RR era. Burning a kids redshirt for mop up time in the EMU game is beyond stupid. A redshirt is a great thing and it helps provide that thing called depth if you use a hand full of them per class.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:12 PM ^
Who in the fuck was RR supposed to play? Whatever upperclassmen LC didn't "advise" to transfer? Coaches don't like burning redshirts any more than micromanaging fans do.
Brady Hoke deserves to play his own people without "fans" whining about it. If that means burning some redshirts, so be it. Besides, if either plays and it doesn't work they can always have a debilitating pinky sprain and get a medical exemption.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:15 PM ^
You really are a moron. I would typically offer up reasons as to why I think that way but your response is delusional and there is no reasoning with that.
September 14th, 2011 at 6:18 PM ^
Do you really have a long list of "reasons" to doubt Rodriguez on the subject of redshirts? Apart from the single dubious example of Gardner... then, who?
September 14th, 2011 at 7:08 PM ^
BWC and I will even throw in Marvin Robinson. I could live with those two but Gardeners redshirt possibly being burned is almost unforgivable. Tate was a slap dick but a 2 year separation between Devin and Denard is a must.
September 14th, 2011 at 8:23 PM ^
I would call Stokes a wasted redshirt.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:21 PM ^
We really need "Blatantly Too Stupid To Read" as a moderation vote option for posts.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:27 PM ^
Michigan was non-sensically burning redshirts long before RR (Gabe Watson, countless wide receivers who snagged two or three catches, etc.)
September 14th, 2011 at 5:30 PM ^
But he burned redshirts needlessly at about the same rate as RR. It's not exactly an uncommon thing for coaches.
Sometimes it may be due to the players (ie whether you like it or not, some players "require" in a sense that they aren't redshirted) and sometimes if coaches think players are going to play a big role the next year you want them to at least have game experience of some kind.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:38 PM ^
Burning redshirts in mop-up or special teams duty is a time-honored Michigan tradition dating to the Carr era - it was not a RR innovation.
September 14th, 2011 at 9:36 PM ^
How about Frank Clark? If I'm not mistaken, I've seen Clark on special teams this year with his red shirt afire.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:08 PM ^
IMO - no as to Hayes. Let him develop and play behind Sr. V. Smith as a RFr. next season as the situational back (as opposed to the every down back I assume we'll be searching for until at least 2012)
As for Rawls - if he is 100% healthy he may need to play Saturday. Get him some time and see if he can be counted on later in the year if Hopkins struggles in short yardage situations. But, only if he is 100% healthy.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:13 PM ^
Can we stop talking about this "lack of RB depth" please?
Chart:
| Fitzgerald Toussaint | 11 | 80 | 7.3 | 43 | 2 |
| Michael Shaw | 6 | 51 | 8.5 | 44 (TD) | 1 |
| Vincent Smith | 3 | 14 | 4.7 | 7 | 0 |
| Stephen Hopkins | 5 | 10 | 2.0 | 3 | 0 |
Yes, Hopkins sucks.
Touissant was decent in his limited action, Vincent smith has an n of 3, and shaw has an n of 6, with 1 going for a 40+ yarder.
When you don't run the ball, its hard to see them impress.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:14 PM ^
While Fitz looked good, due to injuries, you can't count on him as an everydown back.
Shaw had one 44 yard TD run with a hole that my grandma could have gotten through. Other than that, Shaw has ran the ball 5 times for 7 yards...which isn't too impressive.
Smith is too small to be a featured back in a Brady Hoke offense, and is used as a 3rd down guy.
Hopkins loooked really bad against Notre Dame, and didn't look at all capable to be a starter.
We don't have great running back depth, so I'd love to see these freshmen get a shot.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:17 PM ^
my point was to look at the number of carries they are getting. COLLECTIVELY, they are averaging 12 carries per game (as in, 12 carries split between 4 backs). It's hard to draw any conclusions based on samples that small. Not to mention, both game situations made it impossible to really learn anything about the running game.
WMU was half of a game
ND was a game that we were trailing the entire game.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:19 PM ^
Oh, and Smith is too small to be a featured back in the Hoke offense? Tell that to Mike Hart
September 14th, 2011 at 5:28 PM ^
Smith doesn't have the vision or ability of Hart. Hart was the exception, not the rule. I say that with all respect to Smith.
September 14th, 2011 at 7:10 PM ^
He was no bugger than Hart was.
September 14th, 2011 at 8:24 PM ^
Look at his scores vs. UConn last year...hell, look at his TD on the screen from last Saturday. He can also, block, he's tough as nails.
What he doesn't have, is Jake Long and one of the best OLine's in the past 20 years of Michigan football.
I don't think it was vision or speed that Hart had more of, it was #1 power, Hart was bigger, especially in the lower body. It was also #2 agility, Hart could make anyone miss...at least one time per game you could yell "SNIPER!" as a opposing team safety would just shameless fall to the ground reaching for Hart in desperation as he ran past him. Hart could turn -3 into +5 the way Barry Sanders could turn -3 into +25.
That run by Fitz late in the game during WMU was very Mike Hart-esqe.
September 15th, 2011 at 12:46 PM ^
Let's please hold off on saying that Hopkins sucks. He's a true sophomore that had limited touches last year. No redshirt and an offensive transition means it's a might bit hasty to say the guy is permanently in the "suck" category.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:12 PM ^
We definitely do have depth, it's just that
Fitz can't stay healthy
Shaw can't stop running east/west
Smith can't make himself grow
Hopkins can't hold on to the damn ball
Burn ONE redshirt, not two.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:18 PM ^
Agree - and Shaw is a Sr and won't be here next year.
Get one guy (Rawls) experience this year so he can step into a (hopefully) "co-starting" role next year with game experience and 3 years to contribute
2012:
V. Smith Sr.
Cox (?) - 5th
Fitz - RJr.
Hopkins - Jr.
Rawls - So / RFr.
Hayes - RFr.
And unless we get Dunn, no true freshman TBs on the roster
September 14th, 2011 at 5:33 PM ^
Cox ain't coming back next year.
September 14th, 2011 at 11:50 PM ^
And he can't keep ahold of the balls, possibly because he's in the wrong position.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:15 PM ^
Simple. Until we have a true running game, you play everyone. We don't have the luxury of redshirting them, unfortunately.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:16 PM ^
Perhaps the use of lack of depth wasn't warranted. Just that we don't have a RB in the 2012 class YET so I would like to have one of the two a RS Freshman next year is all.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:19 PM ^
I thought that borges said that one of the two would be redshirting. Rawls has a better chance to contribute this season because of weight and playing style and hayes is the same weight as vincent smith and 4 inches taller. From what I have seen from this coaching staff so far nothing will be given. They arent going to play rawls just becuase he fits the system, he has to earn it just like everyone else.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:24 PM ^
Hayes should be locked inside Newsterbaan Fieldhouse and forced to catch and return punts and kickoffs except for when going to class, when he will be randomly tossed punts and told to return them through the Diag while the entire student body tries to tackle him.
Then next year he should be unleased upon Notre Dame so that we can find a fourth way to beat them in the most devastating manner possible on our last drive.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:28 PM ^
To me I think you really want to have Justice redshirt because he can really help depth in the future at RB and or receiever.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:29 PM ^
before burning redshirts out there (assuming EMU is put away early that is)? Dude is a 4 star junior with like 79 yds and 2 TDs in his career.
Come on. Michigan has good running back depth (and talent).
But here's the thing - unfortunately, you have to, you know, actually give the RBs some carries before you pronounce that on a blog that tons of people read that they "suck" or not.
Or do you give a guy 3 chances, he misses expectations and you fire his ass?
Except Borges hasn't really given the UM running backs a chance yet.
Denard had 256 carries last fall. He's on track to get only 144 this year and still lead the effing team in rushing attempts! Sure, makes sense since he's the teams best rusher, but Michigan needs a second punch and preferably a 3rd change-up back who can hurt ya. I think Shaw and Toussaint CAN do the job, but shit,14 carries in 2 games combined? Seriously? They've already allowed Denard double the carries.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:43 PM ^
Totally agree. No reason that Cox shouldn't see the field before those other 2.
September 14th, 2011 at 11:36 PM ^
Give Cox a chance before burning a red shirt with Rawls & Hayes. Even if he hasn't shown the coaches much in practice he has at least shown that he can excel against lesser teams. Maybe this gives him the confidence he needs like BWC?
September 14th, 2011 at 6:30 PM ^
We've now had two very different coaching staffs arrive at the same conclusions:
1. Between Smith, Shaw, and Hopkins, no one stands out as a primary back.
2. Toussaint has trouble staying healthy.
3. Mike Cox doesn't deserve to play in meaningful situations.
A third coaching staff ain't happening, so at what point is the second opinion enough already?
September 14th, 2011 at 5:37 PM ^
I think the biggest issue is not the talent at RB but our O-Line just isn't set up to be running a power run system. The guys we have here now were brought in becuase they were quick on their feet and a good fit for RR's system and the zone blocking scheme he ran. Give Hoke and company a few years and our O-Line will be better suited to push people around again. Until then Al and the coaches will need to adapt and put the players we have in the best position to suceed and if that means the Robinson is the leading rusher so be it.
September 16th, 2011 at 2:21 PM ^
Mike Hart ran over 260 times, for 1300 plus yards in 2007 with a zone blocking scheme. Theoretically it is possible to have a running game with the line we have.
I think the sample size is too small. Al Borges said they went to deep jump balls because Notre Dame wasn't allowing us much in closer. Effectively the Irish were more worried about Denard on the ground and in short passing ala last year. I would think keeping the linebackers up close made it hard for our offensive line to create gaps and creases that weren't immediately filled by someone. So, not only did they keep Denard to short yardage, it impacted our run game as well. Especially when we ended up with long yardage after 1st down.
Now all those the teams we have yet to play have seen that if you pound us short at the expense of deep coverage, Junior is going to jump ball your ass to death. For the next set of opponents, Occam's razor just got more dimensional.
As for red-shirt burning or not. I need to see more before burning a shirt. I think the press jumped a little further than Hoke or Burgess sounded on whether we'll see the freshmen or not. (i.e., they sounded like "eh, it's not likely but possible", and Detnews was like "OMG, the Freshmen might play!")
September 14th, 2011 at 5:35 PM ^
Give Rawls a shot. Why not? Everyone else has done a pretty good job of illustrating why the current backs might not be sufficient over the long haul. Hayes can play either position, so I feel like burning his redshirt might not be a great idea given he would provide depth later on. The only thing stopping this team from becoming great on offense is consistent RB production (yes, Denard will start throwing the ball better). Somebody has got to step up and I think Rawls could be that guy.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:45 PM ^
Has anyone considered that ND had every player ever in the box this last weekend and has a lethal front 7? I'm by no means saying our backs are elite, but very few backs can be successful in that situation.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:50 PM ^
It is hard to be productive when you carry the ball three times and two of those plays have zero chance to be successful.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:45 PM ^
I would redshirt Hayes ... and play Rawls. We need a big power back, abd right now, Hopkins hasn't shown he can be trusted with the ball in his hands. Play Rawls for most of the Eastern game and see what he can do. If it works out, then he assumes the role Hopkins was going to take on.
September 14th, 2011 at 5:49 PM ^
Fitz, Shaw, and Smith are all very good players. All three are averaging over 7 yards per touch on the young season and each has scored at least one TD. They didn't get a chance to carry the ball against ND with any success. Fitz sat, Smith got one carry, and Shaw got to run into the pile after Denard made a poor read and then got to run away from three defenders because his line didn't block anybody.
If you want to complain that Borges didn't give them enough chances, fine. But if these guys are healthy we do not have a problem in the backfield.