Can you link us to the article/thread?
Goodbye: Pharaoh Brown???
Thank you sir! I was pretty excited for this guy though, seemed to be a rare combination of size and athelticism. Good luck to him, regardless of where he goes.
doesn't even have oregon on his list http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/player/_/id/130459/pharaoh-brown
My friend that's an insider on Scout just told me this as well. The coaches apparently don't consider him a recruit anymore after his visit to Oregon.
No longer considered a commit? Or no longer considered a recruit?
Big difference between the 2....
I'm not too concerned honestly. We'll be fine either way. I'm just curious what the news is tho.
No longer considered a commit because of the visit.
No longer considered a recruit because of the secretive nature of the visit.
Word is he is on the outside looking in as of right now. This may change but as of now he is no longer considered a commit.
Sounds more like he is on the outside looking elsewhere.
I think everyone should explore all of their options, Brown included. Michigan coaching staff included.
opens a spot up for someone who really wants to go to Michigan.
Not true at all.
That's like saying fucking my babysitter doesn't mean I no longer want to be married to my wife. You don't do the first one if you really want the second one.
Did you just call your wife a has-been who hasn't looked hot since 97?
You could fuck your babysitter and still want to be married to your wife. Not being married to your wife anymore is going to cost you 50%+ of your assets. Better be a pretty hot babysitter and worth it or hope she's really discrete.
A better analogy would be if you're married to your wife can you no longer check out other women?
Looking at other women is like watching Oregon on TV and is probably ok. Going on a recruiting visit is more like a date, and is probably not.
much all babysitters are hot. This goes for daycare workers as well. For those on this board not yet fathers, wait until the daycare years. It is simultaneously the most exciting and most depressing ten minutes of your day at the same time.
are you kidding? The only question is if he takes an official to Oregon - there doesn't seem to be much doubt on the response.
Word on the street, is that he visited (past tense) for the USC game.
Is this bad? I thought we were already pretty well stacked at TE, maybe this opens up a spt for a more vital position.
Actually, UM will be extremely thin at TE in 2012: Brandon Moore (Sr.) and Rico Miller (So.) are the only two currently on the roster and it is debatable whether Miller even qualifies as a TE as he is still only about 230 lbs.
Devin Funchess is definitely going to play TE in college but the growing consensus seems to be that A.J. Williams is a better OT prospect than TE. UM probably needs to sign two TE's in the 2012 class and right now they 1 full-fleged TE if Brown is indeed no longer part of the picture.
On Rivals message boards, it's being reported that the staff and Brown have parted ways. Tim apparently confirmed it and said it was because the staff was very unhappy that Brown took the visit to Oregon in such a secretive way.
I didn't say anything earlier because it was on the paid boards, but now it's already out there.
Tim confirmed it.
P.S. I think I'm within bounds saying that he confirmed it. No new information, just confirmation. Mods, if you feel differently, let me know.
... hopefully we continue recruiting him. Also, I hope this means the staff feels good about a) our existing recruits at those positions and b) our chances with the handful that are still on the table for us.
As someone said before it puts another spot in the class for someone who really wants to come to Michigan
So why would you say it again?
Some people need to hear it twice.
Liked it so much had to repeat it. Sorry that inconvienced you
With Brown gone he would have looked pretty good in the Maize and Blue and he wanted to be a Wolverine. With AJ Williams looking like he'll be sliding inside letting Brown move to TE was an easy decision. Now we have no replacement candidates at a position with no proven replacement or depth.
So like he can no longer come to UM, or he just is no longer a commit, but could still end up going to UM if the coaches still allow it?
Also, Hello Ron Thompson?
Bingo and Ron Thompson will not be taking his spot.
Bingo that he can no longer come here or bingo that he would need to mend fences and recommit?
Need to mend fences and recommit. If his spot is available at the time. He basically hopped on a plane and went to Oregon without a word to the staff. I am a betting man and I wouldn't look to see him in this class.
Who is Bingo and what position does he play?
Bingo is Bingo Baggins, the name J.R.R. Tolkien was initially going to use for the main hobbit protagonist in the Lord of the Rings. Yes, he was seriously going to use the name Bingo Baggins.
/obscure, pointless Tolkien geek reference
Ron Thompson already commited to the Cuse, plus Brown wasnt recruited as a TE so I do not think Ron Thompson will be related here.
It was pretty well documented that Brown was told he could play TE at Michigan and he was a Michigan TE commit with AJ Williams being an OT commit.
There was also a rumor that Tommy Schutt was going to fill Brown's spot on the DLine.
So I'm not sure how this affects Thompson, IMO, the coaches cooled off on him (as did the recruiting sites)...I'm not sure Thompson will get a call. However, maybe someone like Taylor McNamara? Hoke and the staff have been on him, he's a San Diego kid.
Brown was originally recruited as a TE??? I did not know that. What i meant was whatever Brown's decision would not affect Thompson's decision whatsoever.
I think we'll take the best players from here on out.
Worry about needs in the next class, this one is pretty full.
If the coaches were pissed about him visiting Oregon in a secretive way and don't consider him a commit I doubt we get him. And Ron Thompson committed to Syracuse.
Sad to see him go. I was excited for the potential matchup nightmares but I get why the coaching staff feels this way.
Opens up a spot for o line probably.
If I had to guess I would say that it means he's going to have to do a decent amount of damage control and prove he wants to be a part of this class. If he convinces the coaches, I'd bet they'd let him back in.
The coaches might also think that the remaining spaces can be better employed in a different position and/or player. Sounds like the exodus for Pharaoh.
I've got no problem with him wanting to take other visits. If he wants to check out his options that's fine as long as he knows his spot comes open. While I understand his not wanting to tell the coaches, I definitely see them wondering if he tries to get away with this then what does that mean for the future.
Sounds like the exodus for Pharaoh.
I see what you did there.
well, it sux. he could have been really good, and we could use a te. but, what choice does coach hoke have? good luck to him.
Let'em travel. But he doesn't have a committed spot.
Man, between Chris Barnett and Pharaoh Brown, we seem to have a hard time holding on to those four-star tight ends.
Seriously. It's also a position that we need people to step up quickley at considering the offense the staff wants to run.
Isn't considered a 4-star at TE. He is considered a 4-star a DE, as all the recruiting sites project him at that position. He has not really been scouted much as a TE. Also, to say we can't hold on to TE's seems a little silly, and I would say this is just pure coincidence.
That is completely false.
He's been scouted very much as a TE and was switched to TE on Scout.com a week or two ago. He'd been rumored to be moving to TE for awhile.
Having personally scouted him earlier this season, I definitely thought he was a more college ready TE than DE. I'm sad to hear this news, but things happen I guess.
What happened with Barnett may have informed the staff's decision regarding Brown. Barnett committed to something like 4 different schools during the recruiting process. Maybe the staff feared that Brown's wandering eye might lead him to bug out of UM before even seeing the field as well.
Sorry to see Brown leave the class, but I doubt we have any problems filling his spot with another high-flying recruit
Maybe we can give Demar Dorsey a shot?
If he is playing at the same level as the past, I love the idea.
I will take him any day over Brown.
that want to play for Michigan, Demar sure seems to...
What about Yuri Wright?
Dorsey said he would walk-on if that's what it takes, that just shows how badly he wants to be a michigan man. And that's the difference between Brown and Dorsey.
Dorsey would be in the 2013 class if he does indeed make it here. I too would love to see it happen.
At an emotional level I have this blind hope that Demar Dorsey might somehow pull that off. Then TV can make a movie about it that replaces Rudy in the late night rota.
Well in that case sign him up. We can give him Kovacs's number and start a new tradition of lockdown walkon's in the defensive backfield.
That may be the first time Ive ever heard Kovacs called "lockdown," as his coverage skills leave something to be desired. That being said, kid is a sure tackler, tough, and a real player.
I believe he is a 2013 recruit
It would have been wishful thinking to imagine that this class would continue intact. However, I was excited about Brown- if this is really how they are parting ways, I doubt there will be much chance of a reconciliation. If Michigan can replace him with an equal or better player who is truly committed to Michigan, then great. If not, then I will be a litle disappointed that Michigan is missing out on Brown's talents.
I was really looking forward to seeing Brown in the winged helmet. His size and athletecism is a rare combination, and i was really excited to watch him develope. That being said, we are sitting pretty well as far as recruiting TEs goes and it really shows how serious Hoke and this staff are about committing.
Double post, whoops. such a n()()b.
Guys Noah is not coming here!
Not to mention your vs. you're.
Meh, he'd be the 3rd guy on my list. I still don't think he's in the same ballpark as Payton or Diggs. I'm not even sure he's legitimately a four star talent. He is the best prospect in a state with a few D1 guys though so he will get a little benefit from that.
What are you basing this off of, rankings? I don't give a crap if hes from Iowa, North Dakota, or Alaska. If he can play, he can play. The coaches offered him and are recruiting him for a reason.
Well, you better get used to the idea of Darboh in a winged helmet because he is by far the most likely of all the WR's they are recruiting to end up at UM. I seriously doubt that Payton will end up in AA at this point.
This was the guy I was most excited about on the offensive side of the ball. I thought he'd make an immediate impact if he came in weighing about 240 instead of the 220 he is at now. Like a couple others have said I am all for this approach and it sets a precedent from here on out. I love these coaches.
I'd have to say I'm more excited about some of our OL recruits. Brown was still a DE recruit a couple weeks ago.
With a class of 24 commits, many of which were made a while ago, to me it seemed pretty likely that there would be a decommit/parting of the ways. But, then again I'm a pessimist.
Exactly right. In fact, we should expect a couple more before Signing Day, especially if we recruit some really highly rated kids who make current commits worry about playing time. This stuff is all part of the process.
If he visited Oregon in a secret as people are saying then I totally understand this. Hoke and Co have built up the team and their recruiting reputation (short lived as it is thus far) on being completely up front with people. If he's not gonna be honest with them then he doesn't get it.
i am just wondering what was he thinking, he knew the rules and he still went to visit. its not like we would not all know. someone was bound to recognize him. i wonder what the full story is. he must have known this would happen and the position it would put coach hoke in. strange. but, its fair. i try to defend the kid on the other thread, but he knew the rules. oh well.
and he literally tweeted when he was at the airport and etc. He had to know it would get back to the coaches,
which is why there has to be some kind of story. if not, only reason i could see is he wanted to see the game and force the staff to make a decision.
So our coaches got all butt hurt because a high school kid wanted a free trip to Oregon for a HUGE game? Sounds mature. I wanted to be at the Oregon game too. I hope I can still be a fan of Michigan.
If u are committed to Michigan u don't visit other schools! I want players who want to be at Michigan!
He does want to be at Michigan hence him comitting to play for Michigan. Do you think being butt hurt about a visit that meant nothing and losing out on a recruit is what is best for Michigan? All that matters is the kid comes here. Now there is no chance of that. That is not what is best for Michigan.
So u know the visit meant nothing to brown? Have u talked to him about it? The coaches know what they are doing! I'm all in for Michigan, so should all the committed prospects!
Also, as our former recruiting TomVH says "Once you get a recruit on campus, anything can happen."
I'd rather have a commit know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he wants to be at Michigan. Hoke's rule ensures that we don't have the kid, secondguess himself once he gets on campus. And then end up leaving in late August (ie Chris Barnett, although in hindsight we should have known he was a flight risk with his 2 decommits). Because at this point, we can plug in a quality recruit. In August, we don't have that luxury.
Good luck to Pharaoh wherver he ends up.
You're either in or you're out with these coaches. If you take up a spot as a commit then you lose the right to shop around at other schools. The player gets the spot and the coaches get certainty with this approach and there is nothing unethical about it. If anything, Hoke's approach in this regard is respectful: if you want to look around then don't commit at Michigan...but don't expect a spot to be there for you, either.
Hoke has always said that if you're taking offical visits you are not really committed. Obviously the other commits understood that Hoke wasn't messing around so they canceled visits to other schools. He should have done the same if he really wanted to be here.
Kid's in high school.
But he's going to be in college in one year. High school seniors need to be responsible for their actions. Especially high school seniors who want full ride scholarships to top football programs.
Every other commit understands the rules, you can't make excuses for from just because you're still "butt hurt" about our coaching staff.
This sucks, but it sends the message out there that it isn't a one way commitment...If the consequences are real, than players now and later will think twice about these visits...down the road, it may even save us a recruit or two from not visiting other schools
He also told a major college football program he'd go there. If you commit to hold a spot and keep looking around it's the beginning move of a bait and switch. Hoke & Co. aren't butthurt, they're making a fair decision that doesn't allow players to commit just to make sure they have a spot.
That's the thing, it's not just a free trip to the game. If Brown's uncle had tickets and took him to go sit int he stands, that would be one thing.
It was a recruiting visit, and our recruits know the rules. Brown knew the rules, and tried to keep it a secret from the coaches. Now he doesn't have a spot. Making rules and then enforcing them is very mature.
If Brown didn't honor his commitment, then neither should the coaches. Committing to a school should be about more than just saving your spot. If you aren't completely certain you want to go to a school, don't commit there. It isn't rocket science.
From what I've read, the coaches aren't opposed to recruits taking visits, but it's the secretive part of this that the coaches didn't like. That aside, the coaches are basing their recruiting off of the commitments that they have received. They need to be sure that those kids are actually committed or they could be turning someone away who wants to go to Michigan, only to find out that the commit doesn't actually sign with Michigan. That's not fair to the coaches or the other recruits.
how you felt when RR pulled Dewayne Peace's offer for not switching to cornerback
I can't agree more and it amazes me that people neg this.
What is the average age of this board's users?
Do you have any recollection of what it was like to be in high school/going into college?
So you have the opportunity to take free trips to watch great college football games, visit and take in some of the nation's coolest college campuses on someone else's dime and you're going to say no?
It's a 17 year old acting his age.
If you really have a problem with this, then you should be upset that the coaches allow recruits who have already committed to other schools into the Big House, seeing as we obviously weren't their first choice and they might just be using us.
You're not giving 17 year olds enough credit. They're involved in a process, and that process has rules. Rules that all the other commits can handle. Brown knew these rules, and broke them. This either means he didn't care about the consequences (he was OK with losing his spot in our class) or he has a problem following rules
Since I'm also sure Brown's parents knew these rules, I'd guess this means he just like Oregon better than Michigan. This should not reflect poorly on Hoke, he's just doing his job.
What would you rather Hoke do? Let these kids visit anywhere and then scramble when guys de-commit?
Is Michigan that forgettable of a place that one visit to another school means kids will instantly de-commit?
When I was a senior I knew what a commitment was and how important it was to keep my word. That is all Hoke is asking them to do. He's saying if they visit elsewhere they aren't really committed. Makes logical sense to me. The analogy the other night was telling your fiancée you want to fool around with some other women before the wedding day just to be "wined and dined". See how many women would be ok with that
This is actually 100% consistent with Kalis and allowing other "commits" into AA. Basically, if they are willing to look around, they aren't really committed
Hole is in the right here and frankly I was getting tired of all the decommit/verbal/soft verbal bullshit. You are either undecided, in, or out. But when you decide you are in, be a man and stick to your word.
But what sport and what school?
I just asked megangoblue, and this is her coach's policy as well. She plays mid-major softball for a coach that isn't very strict about a lot of things.
If that's what he was doing then why not just let the coaches know and clear it with them? That's clearly the bigger issue. The Michigan coaches are holding their recruits to a higher standard of honesty and integrity than the average 17 year old and you should be proud of that.
but maybe it had something to do with the coaches hard line stance on no visits to other schools.
Or maybe he thought they weren't that serious and now found out they were.
If them's the rules, so be it, but I think that it does reflect poorly on our staff. They should have the confidence that a visit to another place isn't going to result in a decommit.
It has been stated that the coaches inform the players before they commit of the rules they have on this subject. They're not "Butt Hurt" it's the fact that they don't feel comfortable with his commitment anymore so they need to move on and find someone that they can trust will commit in February.
that they would accept the Kalis commitment seeing as how he can obviously switch schools at the drop of a hat.
(I don't think this at all. I just think its ridiculous that the coaches would take such a hardline stance on high school kids making one of the most important decisions of their lives).
i can understand, but how would you feel if you save a position for him and now have to re-recruit players you said no to because you have a committment. i understand that they are kids and change their minds, but coach said up front what his rules are.
but I think taking such a hard line on recruits might have some negative implications in the future.
I mean, I'm just thinking back to being 17 and having the opportunity to be at Autzen to see USC vs. Oregon...and to not be able to take that trip just because the coaches don't want me to, while they have other team's commits at a Michigan home game seems somewhat hypocritical.
i am kind of split on this. i could understand 17year olds wanting to visit and enjoy the recruiting process. but coach hoke is committed to the player and not shopping his schollie for a better player. big committment. this may effect us in the future, but you get kids who really want to come here.
We have plenty of targets that we're still pursuing that are going to take visits and live up the recruiting process, but they're uncommitted. If you want to do that, fine, but don't commit.
true. if you are from a poor family and have to pay for the unofficial, but really like the school. as i said i tried to think of any possible reason for him in the other thread.
i dont think he thought this would happen, i didnt think he loves oregon but hey, just my guess anyway.
Well, then you'd have a choice: call the coach who's recruiting you, tell him you really want to see the game, it doesn't mean you're interested in Oregon, and negotiate/deal with the consequences. or go without telling anyone and deal with the consequences. or tell oregon you really appreciate the opportunity but no thanks because your commitment to michigan is too important.
Any 17-year-old with a social life has probably faced a situation like this at some point.
but would this be the first time a 17 year old went behind the back of an authority figure to have some fun?
Coaches talk about molding their players into "fine young men" because they are still boys when they get to campus.
Then take all your official visits and THEN choose which school you want to commit to. That is how it should be done.
I wouldn't want to go to Autzen for any reason whatsoever, especially to see a fly by night program like Oregon. I agree wholeheartedly with the coaches and if that is the rule that they set up, then so be it. Plus these kids will get to see a lot of different campuses when we travel there to beat the crap out of them. Next year we play at Cowboy's stadium, ND stadium, Nebraska and Ohio, they can visit some great places playing here. If he wants to play in Twin Peaks Oregon, where he will get much less exposure and play in the crappy pac 10, so be it. Don't commit if you are not serious.
Well then he shouldn't have committed. It's like asking a woman to marry you and before the wedding saying, "wait, I want to go on a date with a couple other ladies first." Either be committed or don't. Recruiting isn't just some little thing. I also think it may have had more to do with sneaking around than the actual visit.
I'm fine by that.
I think that analogy is a little ridiculous: You're talking about two adults planning to spend the rest of their lives together as opposed to a 17-18 year old making a decision on which school they want to attend for 3-5 years.
"I hope I can still be a fan of Michigan."
Sorry. Hoke just informed me you're no longer a Michigan fan. Please give all your UM gear to Purple Heart.
The policy is no visits if you commit. He took a visit so his spot is no longer saved. He also didn't tell the coaches about it and they decided to no longer recruit him because he wasn't up front with them. Curious as to how this translates to butt hurt.
Brown isn't talking at this point, but yeah, everything points to this being the case. I don't have any info that you guys don't have, but we're all well aware of this staff's policy, and obviously Brown decided to trip to Eugene anyway. So it goes...
That said, Michigan is still in decent shape at TE with Funchess and Williams coming in, and they could still go after a guy like McNamara or snag another high-profile player at a position of need. I was excited to see Brown as a 6'6" tight end, but this isn't a class-killer, obviously, and there's still a long way to go until signing day.
Also, this should go without saying, but let's keep the bad-mouthing of any recruits out of this. Brown made his choice, and he had his reasons, and we should respect that. The coaching staff apparently made theirs, and I respect the way they approach recruiting. There's no need to make a bad guy out of this on either side—sometimes things just don't work out, and you move on. Brown is trying to figure out where he should go to school—no easy choice—and Michigan is trying to put together a recruiting class that is fully committed to Michigan. No need for anger, especially with the Wolverines in on so many blue-chip recruits who are still uncommitted.
70 comments in and I don't think I've read a single post bad-mouthing Brown
True, and that shows why the commenters at MGoBlog are the best. I just wanted to at least say my piece in case anyone decided to come on here and say some BS about a high school kid. Just trying to make sure my Sunday night doesn't head towards message board damage control mode. Glad to see that shouldn't be the case.
Williams is not a TE for the record. He is coming in as an OT.
Scout reclassified him as an OT, but Williams is still coming to Ann Arbor with the intent of being a tight end, and for his freshman season I expect he'll play there. Michigan is in desperate need of bodies there, and Williams can function as a sixth offensive lineman who can also go out and at least be a threat to catch the occasional pass. At his size, he seems destined for the offensive line at some point in his career, but there's such a huge need at TE next year I think he'll find some early PT there, even if he comes in at 275 pounds. In fact, I'd actually like to see a 275-pound tight end on the field if Michigan moves to a power running game.
I've heard that AJ is 285+ and that is a little big for a tight end. It's also been said that if Williams was classified solely as an OT then he would be a consensus top 5 player in Ohio this year. He's said he'll do what's best for the team and if he's that elite of an OT then he should probably play there. The coaches will decide but with everything I've heard about his performance this year it stands to reason that he'll be put on the line.
I agree with all of that, but Michigan should be set along the O-line (especially at tackle, at least in terms of incoming depth) next year, and they need someone to put out there at tight end. Brandon Moore has shown nothing in his career. We know nothing about how Ricardo Miller will take to the position. Kevin Koger and Steve Watson will be gone. Somebody has to play tight end, and it might as well be a guy who can block incredibly well for the position and still has the potential to go out and catch a pass. Like I said, I still expect Williams to end up on the line, but next year he can come in and contribute immediately at tight end. I think he'll do just that, even if he's not catching many passes.
Seems like a great player, but I figured our shot was gone when he committed to Arizona last month.
He's still taking visits, and at this point I'd say it's safe to consider him a "soft commit" at best for Arizona. I think Michigan could get right back into the thick of things if they made a strong pitch for him. There's also the chance that the coaching staff feels set with two TEs in this class, or at least that they'd rather fill the remaining spots in the class with other positions.
I just think kids these days, with all the glamour and press that surrounds the recruiting process, forget what 'COMMITTED' means....
Committed doesnt mean, I like having a press conference to put a hat on just so I can fly around the country to see if I want to 'commit' to someone else....
I am sad to see that Pharaoh Brown is no longer in the class, but I am extremely happy that the coaches value what a 'COMMITMENT' means....
can't wait to see you booing Kalis, the former Buckeye commit.
Better tell Dunn we don't want him either.
OSU is caught up in various scandals.
We are not.
To what school a recruit commits is between the recruit and that school. It's possible for coaches to have gentlemen's agreements about not going after one another's committed recruits, but it's usually the case that they don't. OSU's staff is free to tell their commits they can't take other visits on pain of losing their spot, but that's not Hoke's business. Hoke's business is recruiting whoever will help Michigan the most, and he's doing a damn good job.
Not everybody has the same policy that Hoke has about visits. The staff knows this, and soon recruits will know this too. There's nothing wrong with trying to recruit kids that are willing to listen. He is just holding Michigan commits to a higher standard, as he should.
If this is the rule, then that is fine and Brown is being made an example of. The staff laid it out for him and he went ahead and broke it anyway.
I think the rule itself is dumb. If I'm to believe that Michigan is such a special place, I have to think we wouldn't need a rule that cuts ties with someone just cause they take in a place like Oregon. I feel like it could have a negative impact in the future and might turn some kids off.
I also think a lot of the holier than thou attitude on this board over a 17-year old kid wanting to visit other schools is excruciating to read. Almost all of us were not in this position as 17-year olds. To sit there and say "We only want players who will honor their commitment to Michigan" when you have no idea what its like to be in their position seems shortsighted.
And, I think that if the staff wants players who are committed to honoring their commitments, it comes off as hypocritical to have recruits who are committed to other schools visiting our campus. But I can see the argument against my reasoning. Its an agree to disagree situation.
But, at the cost of being neg bombed here, this is kind of hypocritcal of the Michigan staff. So it's ok for kids committed to other schools to visit here, but kids committed here can't visit anywhere else? Not quite fair. That being said, GBOD!
visit, then any of the other schools are free to act as they see fit. Hopefully, this staff will continue to enforce their rules.
Agreed. Also, Michigan doesn't completely cut ties with a recruit that commits and then decides to take more visits. He just loses his place in line and is no longer considered a commit. Brown would have been OK if he would have alerted the staff, as long as they still wanted him as a player.
if they were committed to UM and they were looking around, Hoke would pull the offer. But they're committed somewhere else, and Hoke doesn't have any control over over schools' recruiting strategy. Control what you can control: how is this hypocritical?
Simple because he can't control anothr situation at another school, doesn't make it not hypocritical.
The policy is, "If you're visiting different schools, you're not commited to a school." The policy is not "Kids who commit to one school and then look at another are not worth having on our team." If someone wants to visit here, then they are not commited and Hoke feels free to recruit them. This is not hypocrisy.
But if we don't want kids who would visit other schools, because we think they might decommit, why are we going after kids who would decommit from their current school visiting Michigan, because clearly they aren't the types who would honor their commitment.
(I don't believe this, it just seems kind of ridiculous)
Because Michigan coaches set a certain precedent about vists that other coaches do not. If those other coaches set the same precedent their commits would think twice about visiting Michigan.
It's not hypocritical. It's just a different philosophy about handing current commits.
Just seems like if you want someone who would honor a commitment and by having an already committed player on campus, you're getting someone who has to dishonor one by playing for you.
But maybe this is the way to keep players from finding out that the weather stays nice year round down south and near southern California.
Maybe it's less of an honor thing, and more of a numbers thing. With this philosophy the coaches don't have to worry as much about recruits decommtting at the last minute, and then having to scramble to fill the class with a quality kid.
But maybe this is the way to keep players from finding out that the weather stays nice year round down south and near southern California.
Geez, thanks to you everyone is now going to know that the weather is not the same throughout the country.
My big mouth...my bad, my bad!
But you know what I mean. If you're a kid whose never been to southern Cal or Florida and you show up, the sun is shining, the blondes are walking around and someone smiles and says "It's like this all the time"...it's a little different than seeing an agreeable temperature on the Weather Channel.
Exactly. It's like swinging!
it doesn't seem to me that you have.
Hoke isn't rebelling against kids taking trips after committing. He's just setting a policy in the best interests of his team. No hypocrisy at all.
Hoke is paid to do what's best for Michigan. This means he should make sure his recruits stay committed, and take a look in Columbus and South Bend and say "all ur recruits are belong to me".
If he's not going to do that, what are we paying him for? We might as well just set up a system where everyone gets an equal share of top talent so it would be fair for everyone.
this could go against chip kelly. he has the same rules that hoke does. but he allows committed players to visit oregon. you can control what you control.
Yeah, our coaches are really immature for sending a message that being committed to Michigan means that you are actually committed. If he wanted to take visits, he should have stated that he still had an open committment to the coaches. They want committment to actually mean something again and I couldn't agree with them more.
This was to DUDENESS
I like what this kid brings in terms of talent but clearly he violated a 'code' that the staff has in place for commits.
The lessons of T-Rich were not learned. I admire Hoke et al. for their stand as "this is Michigan". Perhaps there can be some reconciliation here but, if not, good luck to P. Brown and hello to the new player who fills that 5th spot.
I know Shallal Taylor and Widlak are reading this
I hope we play Oregon at some point in Pharoah Brown's career and show him what he's missing out on.
Preferably in Pasadena or the MNC game (or both)
That's kind of silly. If Hoke and Co. want to go around and say, "We're Michigan," then he should at least have the confidence to not get offended/scared when a kid takes a visit to another school. I mean, these kids have FREE OPPORTUNITIES to travel to another college campus in another part of the country to watch a football game. If you had a chance to do that, you'd take advantage of it too.
IF this is a way to drop a recruit that we don't really need anymore by using his visiting another school as a sign of unloyalty, then I guess it's cool. It's much better than oversigning and doing it the SEC way.
I'd take advantage of it *before* I COMMITTED.
Jensen's right. If you want the free trips, then don't commit. You can either have the benefit of your spot saved at a top school, or you can have the benefit of free campus trips, but not both.
But kids who visit often - hell, usually - fall in love with the schools they visit. It would be foolish to let a kid hold a spot in your class while he shops around and then see him leave when it's too late to find a quality replacement.
If I were Hoke, I'd have the exact same policy.
How do we know you're not Hoke? Your avatar is only a face, so I can't tell if you only wear short sleeves. BTW, if Hoke is warm outside for 3+ hours in 50 deg weather wearing only short sleeves, how does he survive summer?
"BTW, if Hoke is warm outside for 3+ hours in 50 deg weather wearing only short sleeves, how does he survive summer?"
I was wondering about that on Saturday. Does Hoke feel like he's in a furnace when it's 85 out? If so, how did he coach in San Diego. He's probably just too tough to feel cold.
He gets cold, hes just mentally tough and ignores it. I love it. I coach baseball in NW Ohio and wear shorts at every practice, and early in the season its still in the 30's...Im cold as can be, but I just ignore it and for some reason the players think Im some badass. Little do they know, I still sleep with a nightlight. Whatever motivates. Hoke does, therefore, no sleeves!
I love it too. But, at some point doesn't being miserably cold create a distraction for you that is greater than the benefit you send about toughness?
What's done is done. Brown made his choice by going, Hoke just simply reacted as he promised he would. Wish Brown the best...hope (and expect) that we put the scholarship to good use.
It looks like this will be known as the "Pharoah Brown Rule" in the future for future recruits. I knew Terry Richardson was flirting with the idea of visiting other schools earlier in the summer, but then talked to the coaches and that faded. But whatever happens with Pharoah, hopefully he lands somewhere good and has a successful career.
he would have really skrewed the pooch if he doesn't commit to Oregon. I mean, you cost yourself a spot at a top program near your home for a school you aren't going to go to....
I hope he can make it back into the class. Would really love to have that size and athleticism in the passing game.
Hokes' people say we must let you go......
Pharoah was a pretty cool name...
Confusing though, I'm sure we would have had to endure Spielman butchering it for 4 years,
THOSE WHO STAY (COMMITTED) WILL BE CHAMPIONS.
A recruit like TRich or Pharoah tells Hoke, "Coach I want to visit another school."
Hoke: "Ok. We understand that you want to be sure of your decision. But for the best interest of Michigan, we just want to let you know that while you are exploring other schools, if someone else is willing to commit at your spot, we cannot in our right minds wait around. It would be putting us at a disadvantage. We appreciate your honesty and know this is a big decision. We will continue to recruit you, but want you to know we cannot consider you 'committed' as long as you are going to other schools."
For Dudeness and others trying to say that it is petty for the coaches, remember what happened to Dequinta Jones... What good does it do for Michigan to save a spot for someone who is taking visits. We always say for recruits visiting Michigan, "You never know once they get on campus." Well the same goes here. And we will be screwed over if we continue to save spots for "commits" visiting other schools versus recruits who would be dying for a Michigan spot.
Get your childhood dreams of visiting schools in BEFORE you commit somewhere. Why would you want a kid to come play for you if he really did go behind your back? We don't know that this is what actually happened, but how could you trust a kid if he won't be up front with you.
And then if they choose to take the visits and drag out the process, like Jordan Diamond, they may see their spot in the class disappear.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
You're not really damned if you do considering if you go to a place like Michigan you will get the opportunity over the next four years to travel for free to many of those other campuses you could have as a recruit, as a Michigan player.
So yes, they are young and I understand that. But Hoke does have a job to do and as we have gotten screwed over in the past (RE: DT) I appreciate the fact that Hoke is already trying to instill accountability in commitments before they get to campus (RE: TRich).
If you want to be at Michigan (which I would think you do if you would commit) then come to Michigan, go to the Rose Bowl, and get free travel and gifts when you go to Pasadena.
Also, if it is true that a commit knew the policy and went behind the coach's backs, that is a whole other issue that makes you consider whether the player really was committed to begin with.
I think that's a fair way to look at it.
Hopefully this can be used as the standard in the future.
You are right that we never know. The fact is you have no idea who is going behind who's back or who said what to whom. As a coach, you want the kids you are most sure wil succeed with you. As a player you want the program you are the most sure you will succeed in. There is amazing internal and external pressure to commit. New information comes out constantly! Constantly. As this new info hits kids and coaches, it often changes their needs and priorities. This happens all the way through signing day. Just have to hope each kid makes the best choice with the info he has.
i don't understand this these kids are just taking a free trip to go see a game stuff. yeah thats part of it but it's not the only thing. it's not like they show up on campus take a stroll around go to the game and leave. they are there being recruited and sold on the program. the coaches and the hosts are doing eevrything in their power to get these kids to commit or de-commit if they have somewhere else. it isn't just going to see a game and saying it is is being willfully ignorant of what goes on at recruiting trips.
And hosted recruits, I can tell you personally there is a lot pressure on these kids. The coaches have about as much incentive to tell the truth to the recruit as they do to give the media the whole story in a press conference. With all the coachspeak it can be very confusing to kids and their families to sort out the right thing to do. Hoke can always go get another tight end, but Brown only gets one college career. I say, we will never know the complete story and each kid must do all they can to make the best choice for them. Give them the benefit of the doubt. At 18 years old how many college coaches could have swayed each of you? You think you know? You have no idea until you have been there.
I disagree. There are some distinctive things about some programs and few offer the combination of Michigan's tradition, academics, stadium, facilities, etc. I don't hold it against any kid who has a different set of priorities but I sure as hell don't hold it against Hoke for looking for the kids who place a high value on what Michigan offers.
On a completely related note...what's up with all the sneak peaks at Oregon?
Brown was switched to TE, but my understanding was that UM (especially Mattison) was primarily recruiting him as a DE with the possibility of playing TE.
On a side note, could it be considered some type of violation to have several famous sport stars on the sidelines who are in no way affiliated with your university or the sport being played other than the shoe contract they're under? I saw D.Wade, Lebron, Bosh, Melo, Chris Paul, Boozer all at the game last night on Oregon's sideline. Yeah, they were just there by coincidence.....probably not interacting with recruits at all.....improper benny's maybe?
Honest question: Were all those guys really on the Oregon sideline?
Wow. People were pretty suspicious when USC had Will Ferrell and Snoop Dog on the sidelines when Leinhart and Bush were there, but this is a whole different level. I realize these are all Nike athletes but you can't tell me that this isn't helping bring recruits to Oregon. The NCAA should get on this IMO.
Yes, and we should be in trouble for Russell Crowe, Michael Phelps, Charles Woodson and Patrick Stewart visiting our games.
What about Russell Crowe?
With 5 or 6 4&5 star recruits having Michigan at the top of their list, I'm not too worried. Best of luck to him wherever he ends up.
Replacing him with a Dunn, Garnett or Diggs would be fine by me. I like his athleticism, but I have no idea how good of a tight end he would be.
All I have to say is that I hope he didn't leave us and plans to still GO BLUE, but if he did I wish him the best.
If Brown is done, I don't think it's worth it to harp on his decision. I think we should focus on what to do next. Does this open up a tight end spot or does it open a defensive line spot?
Well...good luck to him whether he does end up at Michigan or if he ends up somewhere else.
He looks to be a great athlete and I hope he does well for wherever he ends up. No use of some people getting mad, if a coach has a certain way of doing things then that is just the way it is.
They have said this from the beginning. If you want to commit, then commit. If you are not sure, then don't. They're not going to hold a spot and if you're going to take trips and take your time and commit 5 days after signing day then this program probably isn't the one for you. I think Pharoah wants someone to say "If you want to be a TE, then we'll let you play TE." If they will, then go and be happy.
Glad to see the coaching staff practice consistency with their recruiting policies. It's anyone's guess whether or not Brown told the staff before taking the visit. Hopefully there's still mutual interest both ways. If not, then I'm sure the staff can find another recruit that's just as talented, if not more, to take Brown's spot.
Edit: according to thewolverine.com's chat this evening, Brown's visit was unexpected by Michigan's staff. It sucks to lose such an amazing athlete but I'm sure the class of 2012 will be a major success with or without him!
wish him the very best at oregon or wherever he ends up. seemed like a good kid.
as far as our team is concerned, i think we'll be fine. we have two other tight ends that i like very much. we've got a junior tight end that i really like that is very interested. and there are a lot of other studs at positions of needs we could use.
...i wonder if we'll get re-involved with ron thompson?
If Brown is gone, does anyone know whether we're likely to replace him with someone at the same position (not that you really replace a TE/DE/QB)? If not, does this likely turn into a best player available spot?
Personally, I'd still love to see a QB in this class, even if he isn't an elite one, but these coaches know a lot more than I do.
Anyone know the reason he took the Official to Oregon? I mean seriously, he must have a lot of interests and guts to take that visit.
*You get Hoke pissed, he will release the power on the field. Yup Nebraska, blame on Pharoah Brown.
the "he's only a high school senior" bit. They are essentially adults and should be held to the same standard. They should understand the meaning of the word "commitment." People need to stop making excuses for him. Why commit if you aren't sure that it's where you want to be? We should change the way we use that word when it comes to recruiting. Instead, we should just call verbals a soft agreement.
I see Hoke's process to be very much like a military recruiting process. You give your recruit a pitch, he commits (enlists), and you develope a bond with that person. The moment they back out of that commitment they will no longer be considered a part of the "family" and will no longer be welcome or taken seriously again when it comes to that branch of service. (this paragraph is assuming that you have not left for bootcamp yet)
It's very unfortunate that this happened, but Hoke is sending the right message. Regardless, good luck to the kid.
Show me this band of HS seniors (not just athletes) who don't change their minds as time goes on. People transfer all the time from school, change their acceptances at the last minute, etc. If Brown leaves and he has not signed a letter of intent, then I see no problem with him looking around. This isn't excusing anybody for poor behavior because there is nothing wrong with how he is acting.
it's just that fact that I was enlisted that causes my anger when it comes to the word holding no credibility. I agree that not all HS seniors keep promises nor change their minds. Still, that doesn't make it any more acceptable. The rules were set before he commited and he knew what they were.
The way he went(allegedly) about it is wrong. It's like cheating on you fiance, it's wrong. I'm not saying his behavior is poor. There could be a million explanations for what went down. but not talking with the coaches at all? That may be the most telling part of the whole situation.
I was fortunate to have a good coach in high school who sat me down at the beginning of the recruitment process who made it clear to me not to commit to a school until I was ready to fully commit and understood the magnitude of the action I was taking. On signing day your promising away 4 years of your life (20 hour rule is a joke if you ever want to play). I can't say I know what was going through the guys head but I'm sure he was aware of the risk he was taking in visiting Oregon. Its unfortunate to see how recruiting has become a game where so many kids jump and forth between offers but as disapointing as it is to see UM lose a big recruit its encouraging to see Hoke holding his ground on a posistion he made clear months ago. But on the bright side its not as if Michigan is short on highly regarded prospects to take his slot in the class.
It sounds like he might still be looking, which is fine. Kids should figure out where they fit in best. Wish Brown the best if he goes Blue or not.
Man, 180+ comments on a Sunday. Apparently nobody else caught Survivor Series.
No, I did...when I was twelve.
If a "kid" is old enough to join the military (the ultimate commitment)....I think a program should be able to hold him accountable when he makes a verbal commitment.
I for one would love to see Demar Dorsey in a Michigan uniform. Seems like the kid is trying to do the right things and become a better person despite past failures. Isn't going to school, working hard and walking out a much better person, at least part of what it means to be a Michigan man.
Hoke seems reticent to take on any RichRod recruits and I know Michigan doesn't usually take junior college guys, so that may keep him from ever being on the team. However, I hate to see a guy with great talent who is putting in the effort and dying to be a Michigan Wolverine shut out.
The integrity of the rule and the program are more important than a recruit no matter how good they are.
There are pros and cons to having absolute hard lines. Does seem that Hoke and Co. are treating recruits and comitts like adults which is probably a good thing. Even non student athletes have to make a comittment if they are enrolling early. If those 17/18 year olds can honor their comittments so can D-1 athletes IMO.
Best of luck Pharaoh I hope you have a great career and wish you luck in al your games unless you are playing us. No hard feelings.
Maybe we could get Wes Brown though I know he is at a different position. Bringing Diggs and him together as a package deal would be sweet. He is a different type of back than Dunn right? Also Johnson ma be our future return specialist a la the Chicago Bears player?
Happy Thanksgiving and Go Blue in Maui and in Ann Arbor later this week.
Your name and comment match.
Given that Hoke has made it clear to other recruits that taking official visits after committing to Michigan would result in their offers being pulled, he had to do it. Had he let Brown slide, then Richardson thinks, "WTF? I got a threat when I wanted to take a visit."
Best of luck to Brown. It's a big decision for a young man, and i hope he makes the right one for himself.
in this class it seems to me. Williams is almost certainly going to become an OL here. And Funchess is probably too light to play much his freshman year. The good news, is there's still a lot of time between now and signing day. So, the coaches will be able to fill the spot with someone good and who really wants to come here.
Sam Webb just confirmed what you stated. Seems like the coaching staff parted ways with Mr. Brown.
better to find out now...
good luck pharoah dude
better to find out now...
good luck pharoah dude
Not to worried about this, we had quite the DL class comming in, and while he was one of the better if this means we get in on a guy we may of had to turn away well it works out for us and hopefully works out for brown and he finds somewhere to be happy.
Diggs, Wright, Payton/Darboh, Dunn, and a wildcard for who knows