Where is his bra at? Learn the signs, learn the signs...:P
"Coach Mattison told me what the Ravens were about, what he thought," Beyer said. "He definitely encouraged me. I hold his opinion in high regard."
Where is his bra at? Learn the signs, learn the signs...:P
To someone who apparently did wish Gholston to get hurt (which has apparently disappeared). At that time it was pretty apparent that Justingoblue was being sarcastic, but looking at the thread now it's not so clear.
I responded to a (now) deleted comment saying something like "who cares, he sucks". The reply below mine, the one you're responding to, was posted while the other one was still up.
To be absolutely clear, I do not wish death on humans that happen to play sports for a school/team/country I dislike. I didn't think that needed to be said, but there it is.
You call for the guy to lose his medical license based on your entirely uniformed opinion. Next time that you plan on posting, stop and don't.
I'm not sure what happened, but it sure looked like he got knocked out. I've gotten the wind knocked out of me several times and it's never caused me to lay motionless for 30 seconds.
And as far as getting cleared by medical staff I, and many others, can attest to the fact that just being a doctor or being responding for another's health-care does not automatically make one objective. The vast majority will not let something like winning a game affect their objectivity, but you know what, all those trainers are still human. They can make judgement errors just like any other person can. I still lay this at the feet of Dantonio; he can make his own judgement not play the kid until more rigorous testing can be done. In the 2010 Illinois game, RR chose to sit Denard with the game, and his job, on the line even after he was cleared by the medical staff because of some possible concussion. He stated that Denard's safety was first priority and he wanted Denard to get checked out some more after the game.
I have once had the wind knocked out of me causing unconsciousness. I was dicking around in football practice with my friend, who found great pleasure in trying to punch me under the breastplate of my shoulderpads. He was chasing me for a good minute or so, then connected squarely, causing me to get the wind knocked out of me. I passed out due to oxygen deprivation and woke to the whole team and coaches staring down at me asking if I was ok.
So without any question, you cannot argue that something can't be caused by something else just because you haven't yet experienced it.
Judging from the hit he took to the helmet/head/neck, I don't think "getting the wind knocked out" was the issue.
I don't think Philibuster's post was dealing with this aspect but just responding to all the claims that getting the wind knocked out can't lead to loss of consciousness. Yes it can. Like Philibuster, I've had it happen to me too. I do agree with Magnus too, though, nothing about that hit looked like it had to do with getting the wind knocked out of him. That to me seems the oddest part of the whole thing. Unless the dude's head is full of air, that hit sure didn't seem like the kind of thing that could be characterized as getting the wind knocked outl
There were trainers out there while he was still on the ground. I presume they know whether he was conscious or not. He appeared to be unconscious, but we don't even know that for a fact. For allwe know the officials who saw the hit told everyone to stay still and not move. The tv commentators were praising Miller for his not moving to get out from under, but maybe he and Gholston were both taking directions from the officials not to move. I suspect after the hit in that Tulsa game a few weeks ago, officials have been advised about how to respond to head-to-head collisions and would have been giving such instructions.
The tv commentators were saying he was out cold; they had the same view and lack of specific information we did. And, we all know tv commentators are idiots anyway.
Now I'm no doctor
There's the problem. I think perhaps you should give actual trained medical professionals the benefit of the doubt here. Given the amount of publicity that the topic of concussions in football has received, I've got to imagine that team doctors have been urged to be very cautious in these matters.
I was really upset to see this yesterday. The kid was clearly not alright. You don't need a CT scan on the sidelines to see this. I'm not a doctor, but as someone who suffered a pretty serious sports-related concussion I would think it's something that's pretty easy to see in a case like this. Get him on the sideline and start with the rapid-fire questions. "What's your mother's full name? Where were you born? What dorm do you live in? What did you eat for breakfast? What month is it? Who's the president?"
I don't know what really happened on the sidelines yesterday, maybe he really was fine. I just have a hard time believing that after seeing him laid out on the field the way he was.
professionals on the field didn't think of doing that. I bet they just asked, "You okay, champ?" whereupon he answered with a drool, stumbling, and incoherence, all of which the medical professionals ignored, because, let's face it, it's not like doctors are trained to recognize concussions or anything, right?
You're giving their training staff WAY too much credit.
At least 1 doctor is present on every training staff. He's the one who makes the call about going back in or not, not some random college kid.
I don't like this thread. From what I've seen i've definitely had 2 concussions from being knocked out ( both playing baseball ironically). Never saw a professional, but i guess you can't do much after the fact?
Athletes are administered a cognitive test to get a baseline score, and once again after a possible concussion. Turns out there just wasn't much drop off from the 0 he scored at the training table.
I know you're just using it to set up the joke, but the baseline score really is one key way they test for concussions during the game. According to the best experts on U of M's faculty (wife went to med school at Michigan a couple years ago and got lectures on it), there's absolutely no medical basis for that test.
That doesn't change the fact that everyone uses it (including Michigan), but I thought I'd just add to the discussion the consensus from Michigan faculty that it's an entirely unproven, and likely very faulty system for detecting concussions. Someone failing that test should certainly mean they get pulled, but I think a good doc and good coach should also pull anyone in the situation that Gholston seemed to be in, even if he is able to pass the test.
If Gholston had taken a blow to the head in a boxing or MMA fight equal to what he sustained in the game and ended up flat on his face, completely still, with no motion whatsoever in any of his limbs for at least 30 seconds, he would have been counted out. If anything, the judge wouldn't even bother counting to 10, he'd just signal the end of the fight and immediately summon the ringside doctor.
Yet a bunch of you apparently think that Gholston would be OK to get back into the ring after he gets up and walks around a bit.
The MSU team doctors cleared him to play. Presumably, they are more qualified to have passed judgment than anyone posting in this thread.
...not if the team doctors themselves graduated from MSU.
real life experience+actually being on the field next to him>a bunch of non-doctors who only know what they saw on TV and read on WebMD.
Stop raining on my parade of MSU hate. Can't a guy just unreasonably insult MSU's medical staff without a dose of reality?
Has a solid reputation. Particularly in primary care, where it is ranked 6th nationally (allopathic/MD program). Its DO school is also well respected (as far as osteopathic schools go).
You are also assuming the doctors on the sideline saw what we saw. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt an assume they didn't see the hit. Otherwise, I can't imagine who in their right mind would have cleared him in that situation.
I don't know what they saw or didn't see. What I do know is that it's their job to make sure he's okay, and they'd be facing a serious public outcry (and near-certain termination) if something had happened to him following this. So I don't think they'd be too cavalier here.
I mised the play. Has anyone been able to find a video of it?
I was at the game. I couldn't really tell what happened from the replays they showed at the game since it was only from one angle. I just remembered seeing a collision and 3 guys laying on top of each other motionless (Gholston, Miller, and Lewish). Seems like the TV replays did a better job of capturing the hit, but Gholston was pretty quick to get up and walked off with little to no assistance.
By "pretty quick to get up," do you mean laid there motionless for 60 seconds, then crawled to his knees facedown for another 60 seconds, and then stumbled to his feet?
Our definitions of "quick" must be from different dictionaries.
Yeah, that didn't really feel like a "shake it off champ" type of hit.
Quick to get up meaning he did not have to be helped up. He got up on his own power and walked off the field.
Well, he was out and non-responsive for over half a minute while on the field. He may have "gotten up" with help eventually, but he definitely did not pop right up after that hit.
The way he went down made it pretty obvious he was unconscious. Went limp, arms out rather than bracing himself, and stayed completely motionless once he was down.
His arm was draped over Millers stomach for at least 45 seconds. If he was conscious I don't think he'd be doing that. NTTAWWT
You can walk without assistance after a concussion. And Gholston was not quick to get up. He took a nap with his arms attached to his body like limp noodles. Hope the kid is ok, but I mostly agree with the OP. You don't throw someone back onto the field after short term paralysis because they can recite the score to you.
I'm going to presume that the staff doctor took a look at him and made the determination that he was able to play. I know that people like to think of the rivals as being idiots and bloodthirsty monsters, but the medical staff at these games are going to be top-notch and are not going to risk players' lives. And Dantonio isn't an idiot - if Gholston went out there and got hurt again, it would reflect poorly on him and the program.
I think what we saw out of the All American Gholston (TM Gameday) was a rough hit and a guy who might have been knocked out but not concussed.
1) As noted many places earlier, if you are knocked out due to a hit to the head, by definition, you have a concussion.
2) Team sports doctors are notorious for having dual loyalties - to their profession and to their team. I am not suggesting MSU is better or worse at this than any program in the country, but it is not at all shocking that a team doctor wouldn't properly do their job. It seems extremely unlikely, based on the fact he literally didn't move for a long period, that Gholston had "the wind knocked out."
At a bare minimum, this Gholston event should require a persistent investigation by the media. One interesting fact - the word "neurology" is not mentioned on the entire MSU team physician page. Perhaps there is a good explanation for this (seriously, maybe there is), but I'd love to hear it. Who sets their concussion protocols? How do they make sure they are followed? Did they see the video that showed a) Gholston received a hit to the head, not the chest and b) didn't move when the ref tapped him on the back. Etc.
I have zero love for Gholston, but it is common knowledge now that the absolute worse thing that a player can do after receiving a concussion is go out and play right away, b/c if they receive a second one, they literally could be killed. It made me sad, for him, to see him out there later that same day.
1) The presumption is that you are concussed. But they run those tests to confirm, and if they come back negative then there is no reason he should not be able to get back out there. So regardless of if you defined that initially hit as a "concussion" or not, there is a process by which the medical professionals determine if you can go back out there. That was more my point.
2) Maybe I'm naive, but it seems strange that a staff doctor on a college team would take it upon himself to clear a kid while knowing he was concussed. That is a huge risk for minimal gain. Now, if he just did a crappy job administering the test, that's different. I don't disagree that could have happened; I just took issue with the general sense of conspiracy some comments were making about the doctor sending Gholston back out there even though he knew he was injured.
My wife is a medical doctor that did some research on concussions a few years back. I described the play and situation to her as best I could and her opinion was that there is no way he should have been playing. If he was actually "out cold" (which I said he was for 15-30 seconds) she said there is no way he should be playing, probably not for several days.
I'm not going to say the team doctor or trainer on the sideline should be fired like the OP somewhat suggests, but I do think there should be some sort of an investigation into the incident. Endangering players like this is NOT ok.
This is the important piece of information that we may be missing though. Was he or was he not "out cold"? It sure looked that way from our vantage point, but we don't know for a fact that he lost consciousness.
their weight will say that the player shouldn't have been playing. We have absolutely no evidence that he actually did lose consciousness. You can't ask your wife to accurately judge a situation when you don't even give her the correct facts. You simply can not say that he was endandgered after undergoing a slate of medical tests and showing that he was fine on all of them, especially in a football atmosphere that is increasingly conscious of the risks of head injuries.
"We have absolutely no evidence that he actually did lose consciousness."
I mean, while we don't have definitive evidence, I'd say seeing a player laying completely motionless with his eyes closed on the field is evidence of losing consciousness. Like I said, there may be other explainations, but saying there is "absolutely no evidence" is ridiculous.
It would be nice if somebody could post the video of the play and the few minutes following, but I thought he was face down. How did you know that his eyes were closed?
That footage. Lots of players lay on the field after taking a hard hit. It doesn't mean that they've lost consciousness. On the occasion I take a foul hard to the ground while playing basketball, I don't move becaus I've just gone from my face being 9 feet on the air to onto the ground in less than a second. The simple shock of taking a hard hit when you're not expecting it is enough to cause a loss of motion.
When you get fouled in Bball you lay motionless for 30 seconds? I'll bet you're a joy to play with.
have allowed you to see that I was making the link between taking a hard hit and not moving because of the shock. You keep throwing out 30 seconds. Where are you getting that number from? The OP, not the most trustworthy source. You give me something besides an arbitrarily chosen number, and then we can argue.
Did you even see it? If so, how long would you say he was motionless for? I didn't have a stopwatch out, but I'd say it was at least 30 seconds if not more.
It was over a minute between when the play happened and Musberger says "now Gholston's moving". Like I said, there could be another explaination, but I think its at least possible he was concussed.
This video shows that the "unconscious" talk is absolute rubbish. (And Brent Musberger is a complete idiot.)
Gholston actually moves his right arm and leg very early on. It looks like he was told not to move and he didn't. His right leg and arm are supporting him almost the whole time - this is not something unconscious people do.
Time for everyone to move on and take the medical personnel's word for it.
The movement you decribe comes about at about 33 seconds, the hit was at 7 seconds so he was montionless for roughly 25-26 seconds. Seems like it would be reasonable to ask the personell on the field if he was responsive during the period in question.
Unconscious people don't have control of their limbs. Therefore he was not unconscious. Simple logic.
I don't necessarily see him supporting himself with an arm as much as layng on top of Miller with his arm on the ground. Considering you have been arguing with everyone that the video evidence is inconclusive, your immediate acceptance of this equally-ambiguous "evidence" supporting your side doesn't ring true. He may have been out, he may have been winded, but if I had to bet money on it, I would say he was at least dinged pretty badly. You don't just sit there relatively motionless for half a minute because you have the wind knocked out of you.
Andfor everyone arguing that, well, his foot moved, people who are unconscious for short times can still have latent physical responses and still technically be concussed. Like everything in life, concussions are not an on/off switch; there are degrees.
1. Took a massive hit to head
2. Laid completely motionless and limp for close to a minute
3. Stumbled to get to his feet
4. Repeatedly shook his head and looked like he was attempting to get the cobwebs out as he waked off the field.
The simplest explanation here is that he was knocked out cold, regained consciousness and then demanded he was fine, and taken at his word. He could be seen alone on the sideline just a couple of minutes later with no trainers around him. The 'wind knocked out of him' story is plainly BS.