General B-Ball Discussion
And so Michigan starts out the season running smoothly, taking care of business on its home floor, looking solid in nuetral site games against tough competition, with two of it players turning up on first round big boards and two point guards that look as capable as any in the country. They return home to beat Syracuse in a "not as close as the final score would indicate" game, and then predictably drop 2 straight to the New Jersey Institute of Technology and Eastern Michigan, managing only 40 points against the Eagles.
Wait, what?
What the hell is going on. NJIT seemed somewhat flukish, I was sure that things would return to form last night. What I ended up seeing was pretty concerning. If we have learned anything in the last 5 years of college basketball is that things ebb and flow throughout the year, a team can appear dead in the water one moment and be on top of the world the next. However, I sensed something concerning last night, it looked like there was some give up there. They seemed "irritated" that it was happening but no so much so that they planned on really doing anything about. I think fatigue could be a real issue right now.
I started the season thinking this team was almost going to platoon certain positions and overwhelm teams with perimeter athleticism and bodies, but I have been really stunned how reserved Beilein has been with the rotation.
In my opinion, the move at this point is to throw the fresh fish in the water against Zona. Let's be honest for a second, this game is not looking good. And at this point, we are not talking about tournament seeding anymore, the focus needs to be on making the tournament now. Arizona is the only game remaining on the non-conference schedule that is not a must win. Four losses is a concern going into conference play, five losses would be a flat out problem, concerning the nature of the two most recent ones. He should go with Dawkins and Rawk for a while this Saturday. They are going to have to grow up at some point. This team needs them, like now, and I think it is time for JB to see what kind of hand he has in game action.
December 10th, 2014 at 9:59 AM ^
I apologize for last night. Really didn't mean to take it that far and actually win.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:01 AM ^
it was funny for a while but then it just became dickish.
December 10th, 2014 at 12:21 PM ^
It was more of a cock-up on our part.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:01 AM ^
We are young in the back court and very young in the front court.
It happens when the NCAA punches you in the dick for some pot, but then leaves World Wide Wes to do his thing in Lexington year after year.
Good times being a college sports fan these days. Great times, really.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:04 AM ^
...upvote you more than once for the pot/Worldwide Wes comment. Watching the Calaparis of the world thrive while the Beileins of the world suffer reminds me too much of real life, and then what's the point of sports?
December 10th, 2014 at 10:05 AM ^
Mitch is one player. Losing one good player is NOT an excuse for losing to no name teams.
Someone mentioned that EMU had a player with high-major offers and their players have some talent. LeVert will have NBA offers after the season, and Irvin was a 5-star. There is NO excuse for these players to lose, and blaming the Mitch situation (Mitchuation?) is a cheap cop out.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:20 AM ^
When you take the greatest strength of a team and turn it into its biggest weakness, that's a big deal. In basketball, one of five on the court is 20%, and that's assuming everyone has an equal role.
Right now, teams don't have to defend the interior much, and they can really extend on shooters, and help when they drive b/c the bigs we have now can't finish.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:32 AM ^
held Mitch down and shoved pot down his throat, only to return a day later and catch him with pot in his system...wait that is not what happened?...Well then I am sure they made up this wierd rule that nobody knows about and invited Mitch to come to the tourney (when there was 0% chance he was playing) and open himself up for the test....wait that didnt happen either?
Well then maybe he was a selfish kid who decide to roll the dice and came up snakes...let's not pretend like we were wronged here. He broke the rules and was punished for it.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:39 AM ^
If you're thinking that a huge amount of athletes (Michigan and otherwise) don't smoke then you're really mistaken. NCAA just came down much harder on Mitch than just about anyone else recently.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:49 AM ^
It sucks, but his point that as long as it is against the rules, deal with the reprocutions still stands.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:41 AM ^
He smoked pot on his own, we all know that. The harsh penalty is what I think most people have a problem with. I would not classify him as a "selfish kid" based on this. But to each their own.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:20 AM ^
There is no real reason for a team with Walton, Irvin and LeVert to lose to NJIT and EMU in the same season.
So its either incredibly flukish or a sign of something more ominous
December 10th, 2014 at 10:05 AM ^
Funny thing about WWW and Calipari - in 2007, Kentucky hired Billy Gillespie. At the time, Calipari was not considered because of his checkered past. Fast forward 2 years and all of a sudden he's clean as a whistle. When confronted with this query, UK fan has no answer other than to point at the fact that despite two vacated FF appearances, Calipari was not implicated in either one.
Calipari is a cheap, two-bit whore. So is that entire program.
December 10th, 2014 at 12:18 PM ^
We're not young in the backcourt. LeVert and Albrecht are juniors and Walton is a sophomore returning starter. In today's game that counts as experienced.
As for McGary, we can't assume he was going to return to school this year. He's older than his two classmates that went pro.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:02 AM ^
in the ass come selection sunday. It's going to take a win at either MSU or Wisconsin to get them in the conversation. Unfortunately, I foresee an ass kicking on Saturday and a shaken team that returns to A2.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:05 AM ^
has some credibility now that will help a lot. If they can enter conference play with 4 losses it will just be a matter of remaining in the top 6 or 7 spots in the BIG, 6 to be comfortable. The committee will err toward Michigan if they manage some impressive conference wins even if they are at home.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:09 AM ^
but, the committee will look at those losses and if this team doesn't win a big one on the road somewhere, then it will be nail biting time come March.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:03 AM ^
With how much Beilein gives credit to the other team. When it's Kentucky, fine. When it's NJIT and Eastern? OWN UP.
He called Eastern the best zone he's ever seen. That's possible...or it's possible that you were watching the worst zone offense you'd ever seen. I'm going to go with that because if their zone was really that good they wouldn't be playing at EASTERN FUCKING MICHIGAN.
Same thing with NJIT. I don't want to hear "give the other team credit." I want to hear "we look like dog shit, here's my plan for how we can stop looking like dog shit."
December 10th, 2014 at 10:21 AM ^
Just cause your user name is a guy that is a cold-hearted bastard on a television show doesn't mean you need to live up to that standard.
December 10th, 2014 at 5:52 PM ^
Johnny
December 10th, 2014 at 10:23 AM ^
It's annoying to us fans when we are smarting from a loss like last night to not see the coach up in arms and angry about it.
On the other hand our coach is John Beilein...not Bob Knight. If he were to blow up like you want him too I would seriously be concerned he is off his rocker and possibly not fit to coach anymore. In other words asking Beilein to be someone he isn't is foolish given all he has done for our program by being himself.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:37 AM ^
Gustavo you best watch your tone before Heisenberg hits you with a wheelchair bomb.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:03 AM ^
Beilein's teams always seem to get better as the season progresses. The sky isn't falling yet
December 10th, 2014 at 10:08 AM ^
If the team is still looking shaky in February the season is already over. With these two losses and Oregon not really looking all that good we probably need at least 10 big ten wins to feel good on selection Sunday. We no longer have a safety net.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:04 AM ^
we're gonna be fine. Even if this year is terrible, I'm not going to be mad at Beilein. He's proven he's a great coach. We'll get better.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:19 AM ^
This. Under Belein we have 2 B1G titles, a national title game appearance, 4 NBA 1st round picks, 2 of which were loterry picks. Belein has nothing to prove regarding coaching.
I understand that team's performance has been very concerning the past 2 games, but it amazes me fickle some fans can be.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:38 AM ^
Definitely thought you were going to go with " even if this year is terrible, its still not as bad as the football season"
December 10th, 2014 at 11:00 AM ^
Am all for the long view and in general agree with you, but even knowing the team was bound to take a dip this year hasn't really prepared me for just how much of one they've taken. Expecting the team to be anywhere from a 4 to a 7 seed is a lot different than wondering if they even make the tournament.
I'm sure they'll improve throughout the year, but I think this feels like the bigs need a full year development cycle to even approach competence(somewhat like M's O-Line). Long term the team will be fine, but I have a feeling for those of us hoping Basketball would salve the pain of the football disaster there's a lot of disappointment ahead.
December 10th, 2014 at 11:12 AM ^
I thought the step back would be looking young and raw against Arizona and losing to some quality competition in the pre-conference, not to NJIT and Eastern at home back to back. This team was ranked 17 and climbing just a week ago. What has transpired is a little more baffling than the conensus here would indicate.
December 10th, 2014 at 11:27 AM ^
I didn't get to see the NJIT game, but Eastern looked tough, especially on D. I think they probably compete for a MAC title. I know that Michigan should beat them, and probably would 9 times out of 10 but sometimes bad things happen to good teams.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:05 AM ^
It's early December and we have a team with a lot of youth. They are also talented and have a terrific coach. I think Coach Beilein will have them pointed in the right direction in time for the B1G season.
Man, though, last night's game was hard to watch. It was like church league ball at points.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:06 AM ^
Young teams often play to their competition, and Michigan's pretty much done just that after Bucknell. Watch us go out and go toe-to-toe with Arizona.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:09 AM ^
What concerned me was with 14 seconds left down 3 you have Caris shoot a 3 and the only person who even attempted to rebound was Spike. I know Doyle set a screen, but he should have been crashing just as Irvin should have. They all watched. I actually miss Morgan. No way he would have stood and watched. Lack of effort, desire, or just the hatred of losing.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:10 AM ^
Not on cable up here. But I'm thinking you won't win many games scoring 42.
Also, all Underclassmen will be on house arrest with no means of communication until after NBA declaration day 2015.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:11 AM ^
when all we lost were a couple of walk-on guards and everyone expected us to improve but there was a surprising step back. Of course we learned as the season went on how important those senior walk-ons were and that the young guys still weren't ready.
Same thing here. We of course knew how important Stauskas and McGary were, but GRIII, Morgan and even Horford were hugely important as well.
I thought we were an upper tier team in conference play at the start of the year, but now it looks like we will be closer to .500 in conference play. Hopefully we end up on the good side of .500 and squeak into the tournament, but nothing is guaranteed at this point.
December 10th, 2014 at 12:24 PM ^
The comparison seems forced. I wouldn't say that losing five scholarship players is the "same thing" as losing a couple of walk-ons. The only similarity I see is that both teams were/are struggling in December.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:11 AM ^
Games like these happen when you rely heavily on 3pt shooting.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:12 AM ^
Not to add insult, but didn't E Michigan have most of their starters on the bench, including their best player for most of the second half?
December 10th, 2014 at 10:12 AM ^
Irritated isn't the word I would use. "Shaken" I think works better, as they just seemed scared and out of confidence coming into the game last night. They're a young team, and while they have athletes and potential stars in Irvin, Walton and LeVert, no one on that team (to use to the current vernacular) has any swag. Our main 3 weapons are quiet, polite guys and don't seem to have the confidence just yet to step out on the court against an inferior and say no matter what happened on the last play or the last game, I'm better than you and I know it. Nik had it, Trey had it, heck even "The Butterfly" and Manny had it.
I'm hoping they they learn to find their swag, because with the players on this team and the how tough it's going to be for them in B1G this year, they're going to need it if they want to be comptetitive. I think changing up the rotation is only going to shake them even more, so let's keep it as it is before conference play and then we can re-evaluate at that point.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:23 AM ^
disagreement with you is the rotation. It has to be expanded. Irvin and Levert are shouldering so much expectation right now in terms of creating offense in the half court. I have seen enough of Dawkins and Rawk to know that they are athetic high energy guys. I think they need some run badly.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:42 AM ^
A lot to this. There's no one we can go to for a bucket when points aren't coming easy the way we could with Trey and Nik.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:17 AM ^
It's over just so long as the ship rights itself for conference play we'll be fine.
Now can we get back to Harbaugh?
December 10th, 2014 at 10:19 AM ^
It's finals season. And we have a bunch of freshmen. I, for one, shat myself my first December at Michigan.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:33 AM ^
Though that might have been more to do with the copious amounts of questionable chinese takeout I ate with no time to cook for myself.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:21 AM ^
But they'll get it on track. Under Beilein, we play our best in the spring. When we beat State and OSU and others we'll be on the right side of that bubble again. Heck maybe they'll get pissed and take it out on Arizona. Those guys have been awfully cocky lately and need a takedown!
December 10th, 2014 at 10:25 AM ^
My hope for this season is looking at Kentucky last year. Ton of youth, sucked for the first half of the season, everyone said they were dead. Suddenly come stretch run and tournament time, all the young guys get it figured out and they become very, very good. Granted, their young guys were higher rated than our young guys, but the principal still applies.
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December 10th, 2014 at 10:26 AM ^
It's possible that our expectations have been skewered by four straight seasons of Beilein teams vastly exceeding our, er, expectations for them.
2010-11: Start conference play 1-6, then sweep State, make tourney, destroy Tennessee and narrowly lose to Duke
2011-12: share of B1G title with Novak as power forward
2012-13: You know
2013-14: Run away with B1G after losing Burke and THJ to NBA and McGary to injury
Beilein and his staff have been so phenomenal, but maybe we all forgot that you just can't replace such top-flight talent as we've had every single year.
Perhaps we have finally hit a year where the new guys are not quite ready to step in. We lost 3 players to the NBA. Reloading with another team ready to contend for B1G titles every year just may not be realistic.
Long term, this may be good. We should return with everyone save LeVert next year. That's refreshing. But for now, we just may have finally hit an off year. It happens.
I still trust that this team, so young as it is, will continue to improve throughout the year and end up doing some serious damage in B1G play. Whether the light will go on too late to save our tourney hopes remains to be seen.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:46 AM ^
I think everyone knows this. Its just that these losses are pretty horrendous. Its not like we dropped games to a couple good teams. NJIT is all-time bad and EMU...well we will see.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:54 AM ^
I would say it is not apparent everyone knows this considering the shitfit already being thrown by large numbers of people on this board, and elsewhere.
That these losses occurred to such lowly opponents is perhaps more concerning than if the situation was reversed; i.e. if we dropped close games to Oregon and Cuse and then won the last two.
But I don't think it changes the overall outlook that this is a really young team, and that this may end up as Beilein's first transitional season in five years.
December 10th, 2014 at 10:53 AM ^
It's worth remembering that the team lost Stauskas, GRIII, McGary, Horford, and Morgan. As you say, that group includes three NBA guys and a fourth - Morgan - who was as valuable as an NBA guy by the time he left. And Michigan's replacements for those guys include only one guy - Chatman - whose recruiting profile suggested that he might be able to start right away.
Ideally, all of Michigan's remaining 4s and 5s would be coming off the bench. That's not to say they won't be good in the future, but they simply aren't ready right now.