Gave this some thought overnight--UofM/NW referees

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October 9th, 2011 at 10:23 AM
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Happyshooter
Joined: 04/11/2009
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Gave this some thought overnight--UofM/NW referees

I think there may have been some actual issues with the referees at the Michigan and NW game last night. I am not saying "ZOMG! They had money on the game", but something wasn't right for a Big Ten crew.

Michigan got a lot of penalties the first half. Holding was popular. In the meantime, NW was allowed to flat out hold big as life every fourth offensive play, with probable holds every other play, for the entire first half. Never a call.

Then the scoreboard was started late on the final play of the first half to give NW a better chance of running the score up, with the referee team reviewing what happened and rewarding NW.

The second half we had the helmet loss issue with the play being allowed to continue--I will say that they did punish NW for their coach's poor behavior, both were in MIchigan's favor. Countering that was the way that they would delay whistles when Michigan stars started getting gang piled with three or four defenders.

In Michigan's favor was also the interception review that could have gone either way.

Taken as a whole, there were some fairly serious issues. If the game had stopped at the half I may have been suggesting some sort of bias. As it is with the second half added in, I suspect very poor refereeing--which is almost as bad.

 

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October 9th, 2011 at 10:24 AM | posted from iPhone (Score:5 Normal)
GWUWolverineFan
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That was a interception.

October 9th, 2011 at 10:27 AM | No it wasn't.  It also wasn't (Score:3 Normal)
bwgrudt1484
Joined: 06/21/2010
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No it wasn't.  It also wasn't an indisputable incomplete pass.  That pick was the gray area that wouldn't have been overturned either way.

Hail.

October 9th, 2011 at 10:34 AM | Even the replays weren't (Score:4 Normal)
willywill9
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Even the replays weren't decisive... one angle made it look like the ball moved, but another angle made it look like he secured it.  Either way, I think they made the right call (not reversing the call.)

Touchdown Michigan!

October 9th, 2011 at 10:35 AM | perfectly said. (Score:1 Normal)
swdude12
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perfectly said.

Life's a game of Inches

October 9th, 2011 at 10:35 AM | (Score:5 Normal)
jhender85
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no, it was an interception. If you watched it closely enough, you could see hawthorne got his hand underneath right before the nose was about to hit the ground. Thats why the referee said the play was "confirmed"

October 9th, 2011 at 1:42 PM | I've seen replay officials (Score:3 Normal)
bwgrudt1484
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I've seen replay officials blow calls before.  Had that been ruled an incomplete pass, you're telling me it would have been overturned?  There's no way...

Hail.

October 9th, 2011 at 2:24 PM | Yeah.. (Score:1)
Yost Ghost
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that ball never touched the ground. He had it in his hands then cradled it to his body as he hit the ground The reason the ball moved was that while in the process of cradling the ball his forearm hit the ground shoving the ball into his chest. When you look at the replay from the side you can see his forearm is cearly between the ball and the ground.

 
"True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is nois
October 9th, 2011 at 10:35 AM | posted from iPhone (Score:2 Normal)
GWUWolverineFan
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Which, when the ruling on the field is an interception, makes it an interception.

October 9th, 2011 at 10:37 AM | Honestly (Score:4 Normal)
Crime Reporter
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I thought it was going to be overturned. Glad it wasn't but it was in the gray area like you said.

They mostly come at night... mostly.

October 9th, 2011 at 11:40 AM | If I remember correctly the (Score:5 Insightful)
tsabesi
Joined: 09/28/2009
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If I remember correctly the ruling was 'confirmed' rather than standing as called. That's a huge difference.

October 9th, 2011 at 1:47 PM | It was an interception and (Score:1)
RickH
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It was an interception and I'm confused as to why people are talking about the football hitting the field.  Hawthorne had possession of the ball before the ball did(n't) hit the ground, so it wouldn't of mattered.

October 9th, 2011 at 1:54 PM | To me, it looked as if the (Score:2)
bwgrudt1484
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To me, it looked as if the middle of the ball hit the ground, but it was not clear enough to overturn.  I've got a pretty good eye for stuff like that as well, but this was so close, it wasn't going to get overturned.  It was not a clear cut interception though, by any means.  Anyone who wants to argue that fact can look at the division in this post as to whether or not it was a pick.  Clear cut means clear cut.

Hail.

October 9th, 2011 at 10:26 AM | Yes, this topic was quite (Score:1)
glewe
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Yes, this topic was quite popular on the Liveblog.

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October 9th, 2011 at 10:30 AM | There was a blatant block in (Score:3 Normal)
EJG
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There was a blatant block in the back on a punt return by NW in the 2nd half.  Countess was in position to make the tackle and he was tackled from behind, right in front of the ref.

They weren't good.

Michigan is and will always be every BIG schools' 
measuring stick.

 

 

October 9th, 2011 at 2:30 PM | There was .. (Score:1)
Yost Ghost
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also a rushing the passer on Drob that was never called. He was takled for a loss, in the third I believe, and while on the ground was hit by a second defender and then a third. That third defender had enough time to pull up but didn't. No call.

 
"True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is nois
October 9th, 2011 at 10:31 AM | The only play that I had a (Score:5 Normal)
MAgoBLUE
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The only play that I had a problem with was a certain screen pass by NW, I believe in the first half, where one of their blockers literally tackled our corner (think it was Countess) and nothing was called. M fans could he heard booing loudly on tv.

 

 

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October 9th, 2011 at 10:35 AM | Well... (Score:0 Trolling)
October 9th, 2011 at 10:53 AM | Do you know anything about (Score:3 Normal)
justingoblue
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Do you know anything about high level officiating? Granted, my background is hockey, not football, but if they're anything alike these guys sit with supervisors at halftime/end of game and go over every call (or noncall) they make in each half. On top of that, at this level they probably are forced to rewatch the games and justify their positioning/calls/noncalls at least once.

Consistently favoring a team (or the home team) would have a Big Ten referee in the high school ranks or lower very quickly. It's a competitive business.

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October 9th, 2011 at 10:38 AM | That was one of the worst Big (Score:5 Normal)
Jarred
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That was one of the worst Big Ten crews I've seen, missed and blown calls all around.  Are we sure they weren't SunBelt officials in disguise?

October 9th, 2011 at 10:40 AM | Bad night (Score:5 Normal)
maizenblue92
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I think they just had bad night as a whole. It benefited NW early but in the second half we got a couple of breaks. Kovacs did facemask on that helmet play and they did blow it dead, the 15 yard penalty on Fitzgerald  was enforced from the spot where Persa's helmet came off.

"I tried to but a pencil in the light socket but it was too wide and didn't fit so I used a paperclip."-Terrelle Pryor, Future Rhodes Scholar

October 9th, 2011 at 10:43 AM | Agreed (Score:4 Normal)
Crime Reporter
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Both sides got away with some stuff and I think that is all that needs to be said.

They mostly come at night... mostly.

October 9th, 2011 at 2:23 PM | Did you see the face mask in real time? (Score:1)
Muttley
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I didn't, and I don't think that's a reviewable call.  I don't think the refs should make a practice of calling "Knocking the helmet off...defacto facemask".

Persa ducked as Kovacs flew over him from the left.  The face mask grab involved Kovacs trailing right hand, which was fairly well-hidden except for one TV angle.

October 9th, 2011 at 2:39 PM | IMO.. (Score:1)
Yost Ghost
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it looked like when Persa ducked his helmet was wedged into the corner of Kovacs elbow. While Kovacs was in the process of wrapping his arms around Persa for a chest high tackle Persa dropped his body to avoid it but didn't drop far enough. He literally ripped his helmet off with his arm not his hand and from the back of the helmet not the front.

 
"True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is nois
October 9th, 2011 at 10:45 AM | that kovac's hit on (Score:0 Overrated)
October 9th, 2011 at 10:46 AM | posted from iPhone (Score:5 Normal)
turd ferguson
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The officiating was terrible but equitably terrible. No reason to suspect bias; many reasons to suspect incompetence.

October 9th, 2011 at 11:29 AM | Agreed (Score:2)
Eyebrowse
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I didn't feel like there was bias.  They were, however, a terrible crew.

October 9th, 2011 at 10:47 AM | I caught a few minutes of the game on radio before I got home. (Score:3 Normal)
LB
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They were discussing NW's holding - Michigan had to replace a couple of defensive jerseys early in the game.  

Adequate doesn't cut it here - G. Mattison

October 9th, 2011 at 12:06 PM | Makes sense (Score:2)
Michichick
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Now I understand why Denard changed jerseys.

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October 9th, 2011 at 2:27 PM | Ahh...I was wondering why the DL had the old jerseys (Score:1)
Muttley
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with the yellow thing up the sides.

That's an epic Nike fail.  For all of the characteristics I'm sure they engineered, they left one causing a major disadvantage.

Next time, Nike oughta have a few football guys involved in the design.

October 9th, 2011 at 2:43 PM | It's Addidas.. (Score:1 Normal)
Yost Ghost
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not Nike.

 
"True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is nois
October 9th, 2011 at 10:48 AM | Like players can, the officials had a bad night! (Score:1)
BlueUPer
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What would this blog look like, sound like, had we lost?

October 9th, 2011 at 3:57 PM | (No subject) (Score:1)
buttesnake
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October 9th, 2011 at 10:51 AM | In my opinion (Score:2 Normal)
JCM26
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You can easily detect holding when defenders can't run away from blockers.  There were several situations where this was the case.  Michigan defenders were trying to turn away from NW blockers but somehow could not run away from those guys.   Hmmmm...either an overuse on contact cement on NW jerseys and arms, or someone was...

I'm a Michigan Man - win, lose, live, or die...and when I pass on send my spirit to the maize block M in the big blue sky.

Blu2NColOH

October 9th, 2011 at 10:51 AM | In my opinion (Score:2 Normal)
JCM26
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You can easily detect holding when defenders can't run away from blockers.  There were several situations where this was the case.  Michigan defenders were trying to turn away from NW blockers but somehow could not run away from those guys.   Hmmmm...either an overuse on contact cement on NW jerseys and arms, or someone was...

I'm a Michigan Man - win, lose, live, or die...and when I pass on send my spirit to the maize block M in the big blue sky.

Blu2NColOH

October 9th, 2011 at 10:53 AM | So long as refereeing doesn't (Score:2 Normal)
Seth
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So long as refereeing doesn't determine the outcome of the game (and I believe this has to be considered on the whole, not, e.g., one bad call at a crucial moment), I don't think it's worth complaining about their mistakes other than, say, pointing them out in the UFR.

The exception in this game was the helmet-off play. We were on mute at that point because the Tigers were back on and we were triple-TV-ing (Tigers, Michigan, Red Wings) so I couldn't tell if Fitzgerald was more upset about the facemask or the fact that the play was allowed to continue after Persa's helmet was off. There was a facemask on the play, but the helmet came off because Kovacs had the inside of the ear flap -- had he not grabbed the facemask right after it probably would have been more dangerous.

Anyway not blowing that play dead was inexcuseable and if I was Fitzgerald I would have been screaming my face off at the refs. Having the ballcarrier -- the quarterback no less -- running around with his helmet off is a good way to get a kid hurt. That rule should be enforced 100% of the time, not only with whistles blowing but with the ref running into the middle of the play so as to stop play as soon as possible. I would expect the Big Ten to do something about that, even if it's not public.

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

October 9th, 2011 at 11:34 AM | This exactly (Score:3 Normal)
Eyebrowse
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Fitzgerald looked irate that they didn't blow the play dead immediately.  He was gesticulating wildly about the helmet being off and the none whistle to blow it dead.  Which, sadly, jives with a number of non whistles to call plays dead where things were getting increasingly dangerous.  I'm actually surprised there weren't a number of injuries because of it all.  

I totally understand Fitzgerald's rage, the issue is safety there and it's a pretty black and white situation. 

October 9th, 2011 at 12:44 PM | Fitzgerald (Score:3 Normal)
EGD
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I disagree; I think Fitzgerald was just upset that the refs didn't call Kovacs for a personal foul and give Northwestern an automatic first down on that play.  I say that because I was watching some of the press conference after the game and when Fitzgerald was specifically asked about that play, he said "I have three kids' college funds to worry about so I will just leave it at that."  If he was really just angry about his player's safety and not the effect on the game, then I think he would have answered that question differently (i.e., something along the lines of "Win or lose, you don't want anybody getting hurt out there, and when the ballcarrier's helmet comes off, that is just too dangerous of a situation not to blow the play dead immediately...").

That said, I do think UM caught a break there.  The replay appeared to show that Kovacs had grasped some part of the helmet, so he should have been penalized.  But there were bad calls both ways in that game and it didn't decide the outcome, so whatever.

"You will suffer humiliation when the team from my area defeats the team from your area." -- The Onion

October 9th, 2011 at 8:27 PM | Correct.   Fitzgerald wanted (Score:1)
M-Dog
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Correct.   Fitzgerald wanted a personal foul for a facemask.  It looks like he may have been right.  That call (no-call) went in our favor.  There was also a false start on our O-Line on another key play that was missed.

We should admit as a fanbase when calls go in our favor, since we are quick to rant when they do not.  That no-call was a big deal.  Had NW gotten that call, it's first and 10 inside our 30.  Instead the ball turns over on downs and the game is effectively over.  That call went in our favor.  

NW was down by 11 so it was not like an OSU-Miami NC game situation where a single call changed the game, but the call definetly went in our favor.  Look down at our feet, whistle, shuffle along, and be thankful.   

 

 

M'Dog

October 10th, 2011 at 8:06 AM | Yeah this all makes sense to (Score:1)
Wisconsin Wolverine
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Yeah this all makes sense to me.  Credit to Jordan for his intensity & effort - if he did facemask, it didn't look intentional ... when he's bending the sound barrier as a horizontal human missile, I think he's aiming to wrap his arm around whatever he can get.

But really, you just can't play football without a helmet on.  There should be no hesitation on this point, it's simply too dangerous.  When it looked like Harry Potter was running around in the NU backfield, we should have had a whistle instantly.  It sucks that it counts as a down, but I suppose it's better than actually having your head separated from your shoulders.

What were you waiting for, refs? 

October 9th, 2011 at 12:16 PM | at the game (Score:2)
Gulo Gulo Luscus
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it certainly sounded like a whistle was blown after the helmet came off.  at one point you can see the helmet-less persa look back towards the refs and nearly stop rolling outside before finally chucking it up.  in my humble opinion, the board would be irate if that had been denard.  hard to conclusively say he grabbed the facemask, but i seem to be in the minority who believe it should have been called that way.  i'm not gonna call that a decisive play by any stretch, but a noteworthy one in what is accurately described as an off night for the refs (going both ways).  i can understand why fitz was losing his mind, with the team down 11 and needing that conversion to stay in it.

"Hey Now!"

October 9th, 2011 at 12:25 PM | I'm pretty sure grabbing the (Score:1)
Seth
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I'm pretty sure grabbing the inside of the helmet is the same penalty as a facemask. They call "facemask" but the rule is written to say "grabbing the helmet" and then has language that says "including the facemask." 

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

October 9th, 2011 at 2:38 PM | I was there too (Score:2)
tubauberalles
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And my angle wasn't the greatest, but it seemed as if Persa had been wrapped up then ducked and scrambled away, losing his helmet in the process.  Then as it became obvious that the qb had no helmet, it sounded like whistles were then blown - some players seemed to obviously stop play.  That was what I thought Fitzgerald was mad about - that they blew the play dead before they could complete the pass for the 1st down.  That was what everyone around us seemed to think was happening - we couldn't see anything about a facemask penalty.  It makes sense in hindsight, but at the time the ruckus seemed to be about whether or not the play had been whistled dead prematurely.

 

October 9th, 2011 at 12:29 PM | this point is key (Score:0 Redundant)
October 9th, 2011 at 10:56 AM | Holding (Score:3 Normal)
SamIam
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After reviewing the game I found both teams were holding on several occasions.  I think the type of lateral movement created by both offenses makes it difficult to block properly and or call/not call holding.  It did feel like the ballance by the referees was lopsided at times but that probably had more to do with my bias towards Michigan.

October 9th, 2011 at 10:58 AM | Didn't catch the liveblog (Score:4 Normal)
Cope
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But there was clearly holding from slight to blatant by NW on pretty much every screen pass.

October 9th, 2011 at 10:59 AM | Actually, I was looking at (Score:4 Insightful)
sitdown248
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Actually, I was looking at the clock for the final 2 plays of the first half. There was at least a full 2 seconds run off the clock for no reason.  If anything NW deserved another 3 points.

Complaining about refs is completely pointless when the biggest blown call of the game should have went against Michigan.

We won, so no need to complain

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October 9th, 2011 at 11:03 AM | I thought the refs missed (Score:2 Normal)
stmccoy
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I thought the refs missed some blatant holding calls on NW.  I found myself screaming at the TV in the first half.  I don't like to criticize the officials but I thought they were pretty bad.

HELLO HEISMAN!

October 9th, 2011 at 11:06 AM | Fitzgerald had a good case to make (Score:1)
AMazinBlue
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on the helmet-off play.  How does it come off if Kovacs didn't grab it and pull it at some point?  That makes a double case for either face-masking or a blow to the head, but Persa had ducked his head and Kovacs didn't "go after" the QBs head so there is some gray area.  The replays show Kovac definitely grabbed his helmet.  I'm a a rules guru but it seemed like a penalty to me.

There were other calls going and not going toward both sides all night.  Both teams had sections of the game where they played poorly and the refs certainly had their spots as well.  If we had lost, I'm sure this board would still be blowing up over it unless they shut down.  Unfortunately I still remember those nights.

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October 9th, 2011 at 11:15 AM | well (Score:3 Normal)
rymgoblue11
Joined: 03/14/2011
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naturally if someone ducks their head in that situation - in kovacs defense you are already trying to hit and wrap. He got a gift of a helmet.

October 9th, 2011 at 8:34 PM | The rule is no grabbing the (Score:1)
M-Dog
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The rule is no grabbing the face mask.  Not no grabbing the face mask unless the opposing player ducks trying to escape.

Kovacs is a smart football player, but he needs to blitz under more control in that situation.

M'Dog

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