prized recruit Grant Irons followed him to S. Bend.
fair point that
prized recruit Grant Irons followed him to S. Bend.
Ironically, who managed with Mattison...
Oh, and your analysis sounds spot on to me.
After he was gone, because of the things he did.... he had a great hand on our success in the late 90's, and that indirectly carried us into the next decade.
For some reason, I always got the feeling that Carr was never totally comfortable as a head coach. He did a great job for most of his tenure, but I feel like he would have been content to be a career coordinator if the Excalibur incident hadn't happened.
This has always been my sense as well. Like, Carr loved Michigan so much that, when called upon, he was willing to take over the program, because that's what Michigan needed, not necessarily because that's what his own personal dream had been. I think Carr would have loved to be a career DC for Moeller, and I think that would have been great for our program had it worked out.
Still, it's hard to complain too much about Carr's body of work either. He maybe should have retired a year earlier, but then again, many said that about Bo, too.
You're completely wrong about Lloyd Carr's ambition being simply to stay at Michigan, and preferring the background.
Carr was considered for the HC job at Notre Dame. He allowed himself to be considered, before removing his name.
Carr also interviewed for the Wisconsin HC job that went to Barry Alvarez.
And, I don't know how many other HC offers came Lloyd's way. So that's that. Again, nothing against you, or Lloyd. The history is written. I admired and defended the tenure of Coach Carr from beginning to end.
Carr was considered for the HC job at ND? I find that awfully hard to believe. The ND job came open in 1981 and 1986. Both times, Carr was an anonymous position coach. There is no way ND would have considered him. Carr did not become a coordinator until 1987, when Lou Holtz was in his second season there.
I've never heard anything about him interviewing at Wisconsin, either. I heard once that EMU wanted him sometime in the '80s, but that was it.
Even if Carr at one time harbored dreams of leaving Michigan for another job, by 1995 I think he'd ruled that out. He was 50 years old, serving as DC for a man only four years older than himself. By then he was not following a career trajectory that would normally lead to a major-level HC position.
Lou Holtz offered Carr a job as a Notre Dame assistant, with the promise that he'd make Carr a DC, and that, when Carr was ready, Holtz would get Carr a HC job.
As for Wisconsin, Carr interviewed there, officially, in 1989.
Natural Enemies: Major College Football's Oldest, Fiercest Rivalry-Michigan vs. Notre Dame
I remember that Carr mentioned being offered the defensive coordinator job at Notre Dame during his speech at Bo's memorial (the context was that he was talking about how he told Bo about the offer, and that Bo flat out told him to turn it down because he was a Michigan Man and could never take a job at Notre Dame).
They wanted to talk to Carr, but Bo didn't want to coach avaunt him, so he pulled the "stay at Michigan" thing. I don't think it was a hard sell.
I thought he was a good coach, and he was one of Bo's boys. Just made some bad decisions. Lilpenny is correct though, he could of been the double for the dad on Wonder Years
I had forgotten about Kevin Arnold's older sister. thank you for reminding me.
Olivia D'abo. British actress. Pretty unforgettable.
Wait, wasn't Olivia D'ablo actually Winnie Cooper? Kevin's older sister is the blonde in the photo. Or was Danica McKeller Winnie Cooper? I realize I can google this, but that takes the fun out of it.
Well, at least the first time. Olivia was younger sister to Bond Girl Maryam.
Danica grew up nice if you've seen here on shows like Big Bang Theory or How I Met Your Mother.
Im 40 years old so I remember quite well the Moeller years. I do think he was both undervalued and overrated...if thats possible. I do know this. When I'm watching football with my Michigan friends who constantly want to down RR and lift up what LC did, I ALWAYS mention that the 1997 NC team was built largely on Moellers recruits. I think he was very good at some things and obviously lacked in others. I agree. If he had better and more constistent seasons, he may still be there. Who knows.
When I'm watching football with my Michigan friends who constantly want to down RR and lift up what LC did, I ALWAYS mention that the 1997 NC team was built largely on Moellers recruits.
That's true, but you could make the argument that Moeller's 1990, '91, & '92 teams were built mostly from Bo's recruits. The '93 and '94 teams were mostly his recruits and lost 8 games in those two years. I'm not sure the correlation was fair, but it was getting made.
The other thing I remember back then was Gary would bring in big time talent, but he saw a lot of attrition year-to-year, which was uncommon for Michigan back then. That coupled with the losing and there was a definate sense that the luster on the program had dulled a bit.
But many of the recruits from '90 - '92 were, in fact, his recruits as much as they were Bo's - and they fit his system since it was mostly the same system. He was one of the main recruiters for high-profile recruits, expecially in Ohio and the Chicago area. And yes Lloyd's guys were mostly Mo's, but the same holds true - Lloyd was a main recruiter for Mo.
The difference is that Rodriguez truly had nothing at all to do with any of his players recruitment, and the offensive system change was so dramatic that you knew you were going to lose guys who didn't fit the system. Now, on the defensive side of the ball, there's no excuse. And there was plenty of talent left over from Lloyd on the defense, but Shaffer and Robinson squandered it.
Not sure I agree with the attition comment. There were a few - Jon Ritchie transferred back "home" to Stanford - he was a hippy to begin with. Eric Boykin was a head case and didn't really fit the system. And there were a few incidental guys with discipline problems, but I wouldn't call it " a lot of attrition" unless I'm forgetting a few of them.
Back when "recruiting coordinator" was a separate position, we had a good one who liked to get guys from all around the country, thus higher rankings, but they weren't as bought into the Michigan ideal as those from around here, or that grew up as fans, so there was a bit more problems/attrition. But it was an epidemic.
But injuries, transfers (Thanks Mattison), and just bad luck made those years frustrating. Yes beating OSU 28-0 in 1993 was sweet. Yes winning those bowl games convincingly rocked. But when you look at those two years, we beat the teams we were supposed to beat (Minnesota, Purdue, NW, etc). All those streaks existing back to the 50s and 60s were still alive and kicking.
And the other thing is we had just entered a new era of college football with lower scholarship numbers and kids looking at others schools to play football. So you wouldn't stockpile Michael Taylor, Elvis Grbac and Todd Collins on the same roster. You wouldn't have Ed Davis, Jesse Johnson, Tyrone Wheatley and Ricky Powers on the same team. They would go elsewhere and get that playing time because they weren't walking on at Michigan.
I guess my thinking is that his mindset, especially offensively would have still translated well in the late 90s and this century of college football. And I think there would have been no clamoring for RichRod (who I do like a lot) to shake things up.
Since Carr was the defensive coordinator under Moeller, I'm guessing Carr had a little something to do with getting some of the defensive players to UM. Your statement makes it sound like Carr came from outside the program when he was hired as HC.
In fairness, Carr was on Moeller's staff and played a huge role in recruiting/molding the seniors on that team (particularly on defense) even if he wasn't the head coach in '93 and '94.
And Carr was a great recruiter himself for most of his tenure; Rivals and the other recruiting services didn't exist in the 90's, but if they did, they would probably rank our '98 class #1 or #2.
Tom Lemming has been doing recruiting stuff since the late 70's. There were newsletters, magazines, and other publications would talk to them for their rankings. It's been around a looonnnggg time.
And I didn't know much about his tenure (except as a casual adolescent college football fan who thought Desmond was the shit) until I was called upon to GSI a class on the topic. From that perspective, learning about the Moeller experience exclusively on paper, it would seem "undervalued" would be the only applicable of the three answers given. This is especially the case considering that many of my students — who, though they were literally babies during his tenure, had been lifelong UM fans — didn't know much about him either. He has a relatively unenviable spot, historically speaking, but still it would seem that someone with his track record as a coordinator and head coach, he'd be more widely recognized.
4th and 1, throw it to Desmond in the end zone. The man had balls. I went to Michigan from 1990-1994, he's the only coach I knew and we all loved the offensive innovation and the domination over Ohio State. He would have had Lloyd's career, if not better, without the unfortunate incident.
For the record that was an audible that Grbac called. We ran the no-huddle and Elvis had great lattitude as to what he could call.
That's true, but giving your quarterback the freedom to audible in that situation is pretty ballsy too. I'll never forget that game....that was the greatest game I witnessed during my college years.
I've always wondered what would have happened at Michigan if the incident hadn't happened...As someone else noted, he was the coach who brought passing to Michigan football. It would have been very interesting to see how he adapted as the game changed over the years.
That was the [admitted] interference on Desmond by Eddie Brown.
You wont see it on this post since I'm replying, but you can edit your own posts if no one has replied to them
To the left of the "Reply" button you should see a little blue "Edit" if you click that you can change your original text as long as no one has replied to your comment already
(not trying to be snarky, just helpful)
You're not in the App.
"we likely would have taken another coach from the rib of OSU again, maybe Tressel."
I never thought about that, but the way you say it, it's possible. Everything else being equal, I would probably say no. Moeller would likely have had the same success against Cooper that Lloyd had. Cooper was fired in Winter 2000. That would mean Moeller would have been in his 11th season as Michigan head coach and would have been 59 years old.. still good coaching age. I think more likely is that if he retired from Michigan in 2003 like when he got out of NFL coaching for good, you're looking at for the 2004 season either a HC Les Miles who would have finished his 3rd yr as Ok St's HC, a HC Cam Cameron (who would have been brought back to the Michigan family after his Indiana failure much like Bo brought Moeller back after Illinois), or a transition to a caretaker Lloyd Carr admin as new offensive coordinator Jim Harbaugh was brought in as a coach-in-waiting...
I was at that Colorado Kordell bomb game, and I could not believe he only sent three rushers after him, giving him the time to chuck that ball.
Or to quote one of my long-time U-M fan friends, "If only Ty Law hadn't gone for the intercept!" [sic]
Are still feeling the aftershocks of Moellers firing. Lloyd was a good coach. Moeller was a great coach. Bo spent 20 years building Michigans reputation up after our fall. He handed the team over to the guy he knew was going to lead Michigan down the same path or onto greater heights.
Lloyd was in the right place at the right time & did a good job but never took us to the next level. Yes we won a National Championship in 1997, but tell me I am wrong in thinking we didn't have the talent to do that on more than one occasion? Moeller was that guy, its too bad his time ended like it did.
But I honestly believe that if Moeller is coaching that 1999 team, we're playing in the Sugar Bowl for the national title. Look at what he did with Grbac and Collins. That 1999 team mirrored the 1992 team so much that it's scary. All the talent at the skill positions.
I just think he would've stuck with Brady in the MSU game. That Brady/Henson deal made no sense. It's like we stopped saying we do things the right way here and caved in to the talented kid who hadn't taken a college class yet. And even if we lose, I think we blow the doors off Illinois to the point that their spirit is completely broken.
Yes definitely. Never feel like he gets mentioned or the respect he deserves. Have had this conversation with my friends on a few ocassions.
Also, his stint with the Lions in my opinion is only more evidence. He got that team to win. It was just unreal the difference when he was coaching and when he wasn't. Couldn't believe they didn't keep him on.
That 1990 season - MSU trip of Desmond, hangover loss against Iowa cost them
91 was a damn good season but FSU just overwhelmed them but the first half of that game was one of the most exciting first halfs I have ever seen.
I think Michigan fumbled 6 times against Ill in 92, Elvis gets hurt on a QB sneak against osu and they tie both games
93 Ricky Powers fumbles lost 2 games (Illinois the who the hell is Johhny Johnson game and the next week against Wisc.) That Illinois game was similar to the NW shootout years later substitue Powers for AT
94 Hail Marry just killed them, PSU had a team for the ages. Injuries killed them that year, Wheatley was barely healthy for the majority of the year after he decided to come back for his Sr year.
I thought sure as hell Cameron was going to be the next coach and really was disappointed with who they hired I couldn't believe it.
The same thing that Brady and Griese said about Loefler is what Collins and Grbac said about Cam. Maybe they thought he was too young or something, I don't know.
I will never forget Carr's speech on ESPN after the Moeller incident.
Can somebody explain this season to me? I'm too young to remember it. Should we have won some of those ties? Was the team to conservative, or did we sneak out of some games M should have lost?
It's been a while so my memory isn't that great. OSU - Grbac got hurt and Collins played a lot of that game. ND - UM had the ball at the end of the game and sat on it instead of trying to get down field for a FG attempt. Illinois - don't remember.
Lou Holtz played for the tie, not Michigan.
Here's a review of the 3 ties from 1992:
*AGAINST NOTRE DAME: We were ahead 17-7 in the 4th quarter. Then we fumbled the ball away to set up an Irish field goal. On ND's next drive, they moved inside the 10. On 3rd and goal, Ty Law was called for a phantom pass interference which gave ND a new set of downs and gift TD. A common BS type call that saved ND's ass. We got the ball in the final minutes and drove to the ND 30. Then, for reasons still unknown, Grbac dropped back and threw an interception. There wasn't a Michigan receiver anywhere close. I still don't know who he was even trying to throw to. We shouldn't have even thrown the ball. Just do a couple more running plays and kick the game winning field goal. Game ended 17-17.
*AGAINST ILLINOIS: We flew down the field easily on our first drive which ended in a 40 yard TD pass on the screen to Tryone Wheatley. From then on, we continued to move the ball at will but fumbled it away on every drive until halftime. Twice we were going in for scores from inside the 10 and lost fumbles in the endzone. We had nearly 380 yards of offense in the first half but because of all the turnovers, we only held a 7-6 halftime lead. The teams' confidence was shaken at that point. In the second half, the fumbles stopped but Illinois was given new life because of all our mistakes. It was a back and forth battle the rest of the way. We trailed 22-19 in the final minute and were facing a 4th down inside the Illinois 30. Moeller decided to have Peter Elezovic kick the field goal since a tie would give us the Rose Bowl trip. This game would have been another blowout if we could have just held on to the ball. Game ended 22-22.
*AGAINST OHIO STATE: In the first quarter, Grbac ran in for a TD and was injured. I forget what his injury was. To make matters worse, we missed the extra point. Todd Collins came in and played well but playing the rest of the way without our senior QB was, I believe, the big difference in this game. Kirk Herbstreit then becomes a hero for bringing OSU back to tie us after we were up 13-3. If Grbac never got hurt, this game would have been over much earlier. But in the end, this tie game was a blessing because it saved John Cooper's job. Game ended 13-13.
and a tie was still better than a loss, so teams didnt fall on their swords late.
Is there a definitive link for story behind this? I'm searching but coming up with more and more offhanded references.
I had literally never heard this until now. Now I'm curious ...
The rumor is that Les Miles slept with Moeller's wife, which Moeller found out about, which obviously caused problems in his marriage, which made him start drinking, which led to the Excalibur incident, which is why Lloyd Carr hates Miles, which is why Bill Martin made only a half-assed attempt to talk to Miles during the coaching search.
The theory is bolstered by the fact that Moeller called his wife a c*** while the cops were trying to arrest him, according to the police report (though he never mentioned Miles during his tirade). Also, Miles left for Oklahoma State when Carr became coach after supposedly being told by Carr that he was no longer welcome at Michigan.
I never heard this before. If it is even close to being true, Miles is a bigger dirtball than I already believed him to be.
What sort of alternate universe are you living in? LC has as many national championships as Steve Spurrier does, and was a hair away from playing in another one. Both of which place him ahead of Bo Schembechler in that respect.
Does this mean that Bo never took us to the next level?
Carr's teams won outright or shared six Big Ten Titles. Fritz Crisler's teams won exactly one. Are you going to say that Crisler never took us to the next level?
There's 1 sentence for you.
Wasn't this when the tiff with Les Miles occured also which led to him not being strongly considered to replace Lloyd?