Can't we have success in this program without the Fab Five wanting their piece of the pie?
Stay home and watch it on TV, guys. This isn't about you.
Can't we have success in this program without the Fab Five wanting their piece of the pie?
Stay home and watch it on TV, guys. This isn't about you.
Want a piece of the pie? They want to watch a fucking basketball game for the school they used to play for
planetary faithful, but no. The place would be a circus, and the circus would be the Fab Five. I love me some Jalen, too, but. . . no.
*Insert snarky comment by Bando on how one of them never existed*
or not, the Fab Five has played a substantial role in the revival of this program. It was no coincidence that the documentary was played on Selection Sunday, and it is no secret that, scandal or not, the Fab Five is an iconic part of college basketball. Michigan really entered the college basketball spotlight during that era and don't think that current recruits don't attach that team with a certain amount of swag and "street cred."
It seems to me that everybody except for Jim Nantz understands that it was really only Webber that took any substantial benefits, and that even he accepted many of those benefits without any kind of quid pro quo with the University of Michigan. Jimmy King, Ray Jackson, and Juwan Howard were and have always been excellent representatives of the school and the basketball program, and Jalen Rose, while certainly not perfect, has turned into a really entertaining personality and has taken it upon himself to try to help the kids and the city of Detroit. When the ban is lifted, and if C-Webb wants to come to a game with the rest of the crew, I say let them come. Eventually it just has to be accepted as a part of the past, the good and the bad. I am certain that at least 4 of the 5 of them will be in Michigan's region during the tourney anyway.
I like to think that John Beilein and the players from the last 4 years have had a lot to do with the resurgence of Michigan basketball.
The fab five will always be a part of Michigan but does it always have to be all about the fab five?
but maybe it can just be a little bit about them for one game. I am not taking any credit of any kind away from the current coach and the current players, but the Fab Five is irrevocably attached to the University of Michigan basketball program. Maybe it is time to just accept it and not treat them as a continuing stain.
I would totally agree with you if Jalen was talking about just a home game (I know Webber can't come to a home game till next year.) or even a game in the big ten tournament. But he is talking about having this reunion if and when the team makes a deap run in the ncaa tournament. I think that its unfair to this current team to talk about having all 5 members of the fab five at a game like that for the first time.
I agree. The University and the Fab Five need to find a way to put the past behind them in a manner that both sides can accept. It's annoying that Jalen suggesting the five of them would be courtside at a tournament game is causing such an uproar. It shouldn't have to be this way.
The 92-93 seasons are still obliterated from the record book because of what he did. Whether or not his personal ban is lifted seems irrelevant, IMO.
But you did forget how to spell Crisler...
I totally disagree that the Fab 5 has anything to do with the teams current success. I......just......smh.
You really think that the Fab 5 has NOTHING to do with the teams current success. If you believe we would have landed all of the recruits that have put the program back where it is without the Fab 5 in our history you are extremely naive. Both Darius Morris and Mitch McGary picked #4 because they were fans of Webber (both explicitly stated this). Do you really think that the Fab 5 documentary has had NOTHING to do with elite recruits considering Michigan? Belien is tremendous and has shocked me with his recruiting but to think that it has nothing to do with the Fab 5 just seems foolish.
Having said that, I think for them all to come back and sit courtside for a tourney game this year would only be an uneccisary distraction. Wait till next year.
How will you react when the next great Ohio football player says he choose #2 because he was a huge fan of Terrelle Pryor? Webber and the rest of the players in the Ed Martin scandal are embarrassments to the University. We lose our ability to criticize Ohio if we associate with Webber and the rest of the Scandal players. And let's be honest we love to do that.
...Darius Morris and Mitch McGary were just kids when the Fab Five was around, if that. When they fell in love with Webber, they were innocent, and unaware of the greed and corruption in the real world. They loved seeing those alley-oops, the precise passes, dunks and tournament wins. They loved the players of the Fab Five and that factored into the decision to come play at UM. In their minds, they're wearing the number of their childhood idol.
And to be honest, I was one of those kids too. I know firsthand of the adoration that kids had for the Fab Five and while that is tarnished in my opinion, it still can't take away from the years of bliss that I felt watching those guys. They were revolutionary and they were MY team. It was unbelievable.
So anyways, where are we. Fab Five is part of our history and we need to embrace the good and deal with the bad. I think it would be good for the University and the Fab Five to find a good way to publicly come together and officially kick off the "healing process". And yes, there are kids in Ohio who idolized Pryor and will choose to attend Ohio because of him in the future (along with Clarett, Woody, etc). Deal with it, they're kids.
Well if that is the case I think it was important for the healing process between Ohio and Tressell for them to celebrate and honor him at The Game this past season.
Do you see where I am going with this? We lose our moral authority to criticize our opponent's cheaters when we start the "healing process" with our own.
With all due respect, I think there is a great deal of difference between honoring the person or "starting the healing process" 20 years after the fact, rather than the very next season. As far as Pryor goes, I think there are plenty of reasons not to be a Terrelle Pryor fan, least of which is "Tatgate". I might be alone in that opinion though.
I only need one reason not to be a Pryor fan, he went to Ohio.
I hear you about how it has been 20 years, really only 10 since the scandal broke. But time makes no difference to me. It's not as if after May 1st they will un-vacate the final fours and the wins. If CWebb seeks out a private meeting with DB and MSC to discuss this very topic I'd gladly accept the results of that meeting.
I'm not trying to pass judgement on CWebb because I don't know what I would have done if I were in his shoes. It is easy to say I wouldn't have accepted the money but I never had to make that choice myself. I am disappointed that he has never shown any contrition for the damage his actions did to the program.
I see your point but to me time clearly makes a difference. Can you imagine if we held a celebration honoring Webber the year after the scandal broke? No one would have supported that the way they did Tressel at that school in Ohio. Also, no one is trying to have an official celebration honoring the Fab 5. Jalen just wants to be able to have them all come to the game and sit courtside together to watch the best team that their alma mater has had in 20 years. Like I aid, I don't think it's a good idea for this year but I understand where he is coming from.
I don't think anyone would criticize tsio for not stoppingPryor from sitting in the stands at a football game 10 years from now. Just saying.
Mitch McGary was 10 months old when the Fab Five played their last game together, so I'm not sure how much he loved watching them play (except maybe in a very abstract sense).
Now I feel old.
This is true. To be fair, McGary and Morris probably became Webber fans from watching the Sacramento Kings and not UM but the point still stands.
Regarding your claim above that McGary picked #4 because of Webber—can you provide some evidence to back that up? Here's what McGary said in a Scout Q&A:
Question: Any personal significance, in particular for wearing #4?
Mitch McGary: “My high school number has always been #5 and #33 was prep school, AAU. #33 is retired and #5 was my teammate’s. I just decided I’d pick #4.”
Both Darius Morris and Mitch McGary picked #4 because they were fans of Webber (both explicitly stated this).
Darius Morris was born in 1991. Mitch McGary was born in '92. They can't have any actual memory of the Fab Five playing here I'd take what they say about the Fab Five with a grain of salt. It sounds cool to say you're honoring an ex-player by choosing his number. Jamal Crawford used to claim he started wearing his headband to honor Slick Watts. (He later admitted he just liked the look.)
that they should stage a big whoop-ee-doo at an NCAA game. Much better, in fact, that they receive cordial official treatment at the beginning of a UM home game, then take their places. It's all about context, management of the first event, and respecting the current players as well.
That said, if they want to just show up, buy tickets and root Michigan on in a low-key way, that would be great.
"Like it or not, the Fab Five has played a substantial role in the revival of this program. "
What role is that? How is it "substantial"?
I have obviously missed something; I am not aware of anything that any member of the Fab Five has done to help revive the Michigan basketball program.
The Fab 5 were rock stars. The documentary is on ESPN all the time - you can't tell me that doesn't have any affect on the perception of Michigan.
Yeah, the doc touches on the sanctions at the end (as it should) but the lasting memory after viewing the film is that they were revolutionary and brought basketball into the modern age. As Chuck D put it, "they were 5 basketball playing Muhammad Ali's."
The baggy shorts, black socks, trash talk and swagger had a huge influence regardless of if you think it was positive or negative. Bottom line - kids watch that movie and associate Michigan with being beyond cool. You can't buy that type of PR if you wanted to.
Rose, Howard, King, and Jackson can come back and be celebrated no problem. It is kind of difficult to celebrate thier accomplishments when they have been vacated though. Webber's no contact clause should be permanent.
I love the Fab Five, but the notion that they played a "substantial role" in Beilein's turnaround of the program is a major reach. We were already headed to the 2011 tourney and had Burke signed up when that documentary aired. They jumped on the bandwagon like a lot of other fans, but they didn't drive it.
would like the Fab 5 there cheering them on? I would think they would love it.
just ask the current team and coaches to vote/ discuss the issue in private and have the University communicate a yes or stay silent on a no.
I'm not old enough to remember the Fab Five actually playing, but IMHO any good to great team we have is going to be compared to the Fab Five, so I think them being at the game is moot. It's going to be discussed by the announcers, so the five might as well be there, I think it would be cool.
This is true no matter what the topic will come up. But I am sure it would be a much bigger story line if they are actualy at the game.
As much as I love the fab five I don't want this. Their time has passed and they didn't win any championships. I'd rather see guys like Glen Rice and Rumeal Robinson courtside.
Once Webber's ban is lifted do you think the University will invite him to games?
So only people who have won a title are welcome back?
Pretty sure Robinson is either in prison or in some stage of being sent to prison for, among many other things, swindling his own mother.
I definitely don't want Rumeal Robinson there. He's despicable.
Us Michigan fans celebrating the fab five is no different than Ohio fans revering Tressell. We can't levy criticism on Tressell while embracing our own set of cheaters. Rumeal Robinson is no saint but at least he didn't cause our program to go on a 10 year trip to Bolivia.
I know this isn't a popular opinion around these parts but major rule violators have no place at Michigan. How can we hold ourselves to a higher standard if we welcome back the very people whose actions damaged the state of our program. The halmark of Michigan has always been achieving excellence the right way. Sadly the fab five do not fit this definition.
Who is celebrating what? Did you even read the article? The University of Michigan has nothing tondo with this. Not to mention you say group of cheaters. It was one guy. This article is talking about former players attending a game at a neutral location, nothing more. There is ZERO comparison to JT being carried on players shoulders on the field at halftime of a home game.
Give up the holier than thou sentiment. Michigan just like every other school has it's skeletons. Even the football team had their violations.
A misunderstanding by a freshman over what is a countable and non-countable hour is much different than taking large sums of cash from a bookie. Also you say it was just one guy but Jalen Rose admitted to taking $20 at a time from Ed Martin. Nothing is stopping King, Jackson, Rose, and Howard from going to games but there is an NCAA ban on the University associating with Webber.
I'm sorry I don't believe that the ends jusify the means. Read Bo's Lasting Lessons by John U. Bacon and you will get where I am coming from.
Also, I did not read the article because I do not give clicks to Freep.
So you are ok with some rule breaking. Hypocrite.
Here is a news flash. The University of Michigan is not the holy golden shrine you want it to be. Get over it. Embrace the past. You don't get to pick and choose your history.
I'm not ok with any rule breaking. When two "journalists" go an a witch hunt because they don't like the coach and all they find is 20 minutes of extra stretching I'm not torn up about it.
There is a difference between blatant rule breaking and honest oversight. I'll bet my house that if you looked at every FBS team about 90% of them would be found to be 20 minutes or more over countable hours in season.
Also this is not the point. If Howard, King, Jackson, and Rose want to buy courtside seats they are free to do so. Webber can't and shouldn't be allowed to. They definitely haven't done anything to deserve honors (B1G championships, National Championships). Their only claims to fame, 2 final fours, were vacated.
You will always be walking a fine line between blatant rule breaking and honest oversight. Everyone here trashes Cam Newton, but what if he didn't know his dad was shopping him? Are you telling me there aren't people out there with shady parents that have good intentions themselves?
As for the last part, I don't believe you are correct. Since you didn't read the article or apparently anythig I have written, I will reitterate. They are talking about attending an NCAA tournament game. Not a home game. They aren;t talking about ANY association with the university. So I don't think that Michigan can prevent Chris Webber from attending an NCAA tournament game.
Their claim to fame is being the Fab Five. You can't vacate that.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Rule Breaking: Covering up knowledge that your players may be inelligble. Taking six figures from a booster
Honest Oversight: Failing to fill out the right forms. Quality control assistant telling players he is an assistant coach.
If there is any chance that the NCAA determines Webber is violating his no-contact ban by attending a Michigan tournament game then the University should absolutely prohibit it. We have come too far to risk it. Unitl I hear explicit confirmation from the NCAA that they won't penalize Michigan for this I am against it. You can't trust them these days.
Good job ignoring the rest of my first statement.
My point was you said he can't and I'm not sure that is correct. You can be against it all you want, that doesn't mean that it is against the disassociation agreement.
I think it's a great idea and would be a great way to end the 20 year story. For the Fab Five to be watching a team poised to do well in the NCAA tournament, 20 years later.
What's stopping them from all watching the games at Jalen's house?
Or buying their own tickets together and watching like the rest of the paying customers?
I don't recall Jalen saying UM should pick up the tab for the courtside seats.
Personally, I'd love to see famous (and even infamous) alumni sitting courtside at a UM final four game. No Ted Kaczynski or Rumeal, but Fab Five, the rest of the 1989 team, Tom Brady, Braylon, Steve Hutchinson, Jake Long...yes please.
What's wrong with 5 guys watching a game? We already see Tim Hardaway 20 times a game. They talk about Glenn Robinson all the time. Would this really take any spotlight off the #1 team in the nation?
Tim Hardaway has never been involved in a scandal that put Michigans basketabll program on probation and resulted in vacated wins. You would hear about this at halftime during time outs the whole nine yards it wouldn't just be a camera panning over the five of them with a mention.
Because this has never been brought up during a game before without them there. You make it sound like if they aren't around everyone forgets it happened.
Yeah and I'm sure they won't talk about it even more with all five guys in the building. WTF.
I don't see why many people on this thread fail to grasp this.
I'm a Fab Five fan but I do not want to see them have their reunion at one of this team's tourney games. Doing so would be an absolutely selfish move on their part. Let this team have their time in the spotlight.
You are kidding yourself if you don't think that the media is goin to talk about nothing but the Fab Five the minute this team gets past the 2nd round of the tournament. That is ALL they will talk about, because the media just wants readers/viewers and people love to read/hear about the Fab Five. Them being there will change nothing.
However much the media talks about the Fab Five, don't you think the media will talk about them even more if they're actually in the building, re-united for the first time in 20 years?
You realize there is only so much you can say about the situation. It is all going to get brought up regardless. What do you think is going to get added on if they are in attendance? Do you really believe the media is going to leave out the bad parts if they don't show up? Keep dreaming.
to Ohio honoring Tressel at halftime of "the Game".......classless
So, I guess what I'm saying is lets have them courtside when we play Ohio next week!
It would be different from Ohio honoring Tressel because Jalen never mentioned from what I read the school having any involvement. It would just be them buying tickets and watching the games.
He actually said that he did take money during the fab five documentary
Yes five men attending a game on their own dollar at a neutral location is pretty much the same as carrying a man on your shoulders at halftime of the biggest home game of the year.
not to mention that it is 20 years after these players left Michgan rather than the ver next year following the scandal.
How is that even remotely the same thing? There would be no honoring of these guys by anyone, much less the school. They would buy their own tickets. They sure as shit wouldn't be carried off on anyone's shoulders at halftime. All this talk of these guys taking away from the current team's "moment" makes me sick. He wants to watch a basketball game, perhaps the first truly meaningful game with the potential to end in a championship since he wore a uniform, with his old teammates. He's not asking for a ceremony or even acknowledgement. Get off the man's johnson and let him watch a game. The only person anyone could potentially be the slightest bit nervous about showing up is Webber simply because of the no contact order, but for the rest, I hope they do go and see their alma mater reach a goal they never did.
This sums up my thoughts exactly. Why can't they just show up to the game? Why do they have to announce it? If they want to go to a tournament game awsome have fun. But don't make it about you and tell ESPN and the rest of the media so they can turn it into a circus.
I'm still somewhat unhappy with Jalen for using his company to make a documentary on the Fab Five and taking shots at Duke in the process along with. The tone Jalen took and some of commenets sparked some stupid war on Twitter between various people with ties to Michigan and Duke. The week before we played them in the tourney, way to give them BB material there Jalen.
The more Jalen talks the more I can't help by feel Jalen just likes seeing his name in print.
Taking shots at Duke? They were being honest about their feelings during their time at Michigan. You seem to have missed the point of the documentary.
As for when it aired, I guarantee that was decided long before anyone knew were had a chance to play Duke in the second round.
Sometimes you crush personal feelings for the good of others. I found the tone the 2011 documentary took be one that was improper and harmful to Michigan as institution. It wasn't the kind of thing that would help us rebuild a future program. It personally left me with the feeling that Rose uses his past association with Michigan to glorify himself, as opposed to seeking to benefit Michigan and the stability of the program. As such I prefer Michigan doesn't associate with Rose.
I'm sure that Rose didn't schedule or intend to have ESPN run the film when they did, but one of the first rules of sports is don't make comments that end up on bulletin boards, because sooner or later they do. Of course if you don't trash talk, you don't make headlines and that is what Rose wants.
I strongly suggest you google the definition of "documentary."
What makes Jalen awesome, particularly on the grantland webcasts but in the Fab 5 doc as well, is that he's willing to open up and reveal some bits about the strange life that modern athletes live, how it works, and how they experience and make sense of it. He's willing to be honest in a world where almost all athletes are guarded. He does love attention, but he's also willing to use that attention to share the inside world of elite athletes, which is an interesting thing that almost none of them do for themselves.
The grantland webcasts should be watched by anyone who's interested in the broader social life of sports and athletes. The episodes where he talks about why athletes go broke, what it's like to live in a wealthy neighborhood as a professional athlete, and how gambling on planes in the NBA works are essential viewing. The one where he steals Patrick Ewing's TV/VCR is just funny.
As for the Fab 5 documentary, I'm not sure how him explaining how his 17 year old self made sense of why Duke didn't want to recruit him, and what that made him believe about Duke at the time, hurt Michigan. It did provide light into the experience of those guys at a particular point in time, which was interesting and telling for how they viewed the world. But I don't see how that hurt Michigan.
You are spot on. Jalen is an awesome example of an urban Detroit kid that made it. Hes a breath of fresh air since he's so real and authentic. He used his scholarship at UM to get a journalism degree which has paid off with his role at ESPN and Grantland.
He's on NBA Countdown, ESPN Gameday, Numbers Never Lie and he has his own podcast. Oh and he's started a Charter school in Detroit to help urban kids realize their dreams (Jalen Rose Leadership Academy).
Pre-title game pep talk would be nice. They could tell them how they did things the right way and it would honor them to do what they never could - win a national title.
I disagree with this respectfully but strongly. This reminds me of the way Earvin Johnson attached himself to some of Michigan State's successful teams of the previous decade during their playoff runs, trying to portray himself as having been there supporting Michigan State all along--which he had not.
Perhaps some of this is my annoyance that the 1989 championship team seems to be forgotten in all of the talk about the "Fab Five." I understand that Rumeal Robinson is a contemptible human being, but if we are going to give publicity to some former players during our title run, let's give it to Glen Rice, Terry Mills, Loy Vaught, Sean Higgins, Mike Griffin, Mark Hughes, Demetrius Calip and their other teammates. They are strangely forgotten when the history of Michigan basketball is discussed here, even though they accomplished the most important feat in Michigan basketball history.
1993 me is giddy about this. 2013 me is uneasy with it. I'd love for them to be there, but how about they get a box and invite the '89 team to join them. Sitting courtside would be a circus and definitely remove the focus from the current team.
If we are making a run in the tourney everyone is going to talk about the fab five even if they hide in a cave for the entire month of march. Having famous nba guys support your team is good for the program, I know some shy away from the fab five but if we are honest with ourselves they are the reason michigan is even considered a slightly good basketball school.
I agree with everything you said up to the last 20 words. The mid-1970's and 1989 teams would beg to differ with your analysis re: why Michigan is considered a good basketball school.
Two final fours in the 1960s with Cazzie Russell's teams didn't hurt either.
There's a reason they called Crisler the House That Cazzie Built.
If they pay for tickets they can sit wherever they want.
Although Jalen has been unswerving in his support of U-M, despite the scandal, sanctions, etc., he caused the school and program enough pain (and foreited wins) that I don't think he is owed anything. That's especially true of any form of "tribute" to the Fab Five (officially: the players who never played at Michigan).
As for Webber, well, I wouldn't mind if they actually baracade the gates into perpetuity to keep him out of Crisler Arena.
Who caused the the school and program pain is up for debate.
I love the Fab Five. I just don't think it has to be a big deal. You want to buy your four friends courtside seats, go ahead. Even if your name happens to be Jalen Rose. Fine by me.
They aren't going to stop a March Madness game to "honor" the Fab Five. I mean there is another team in the house - with their own history - who has accomplished just as much as the Michigan team up to that point.
I like Jalen and part of the reason I do is he loves attention (to which I say who doesn't really?) so you can't expect anything less from him, but I think it would be fine if they want to show up and watch. It's a free country.
I've met him on a few occasions at Detroit Metro Airport standing in line for security or at the gate. He is very down to earth and a genuinely nice guy.
However, what happened during the Fab Five era, IME, is not something we should be making reference to, nor celebrating.
Loved the Fab Five. Would like them to lay back and let this season remain about this team.
I just went through here and upvoted everything just so I could read it all since I usually have neg comments hidden. Someone today thought this discussion clearly wasn't worth having, and thus they were downvoting everything even when people were making good points.
I don't want anything to distract from the greatness of this year's team, so let the Fab Five stay away for now, especially until Webber's no contact clause expires. Maybe in the fall when we are hanging the banners for this season, the fab 5 and 1989 teams can all be there as part of a celebration for this team.
You can stop spelling Crisler wrong now
We are in the Final Four? What did I miss?
I know the Fab 5 is upset they took their banners down. I think there is a great lesson in forgiveness the Rose is displaying.
3 vet NBA players courtside cheering on our team? Sounds awful
if they want to come to the game, its their right to do so, but part of me just hopes they watch from home. it'd honestly be too much of a distraction for the team to have the fab five sitting right there in front of them.
I wonder if most of you are even reading the article? They aren't talking about a home game. This wouldn't be at Crisler. He is talking about the tournament games. It doesn't involve the university at all.
It would be nice if the current U of M administration could find a way to make peace with these guys and find a way for both sides to be made whole again, so these guys being courtside of a basketball game wouldn't have to be a distraction. Four of the five were never implicated in the Ed Martin affair, so it's unfair that the University continues to kind of turn it's back on them.
If they want to come, and do so once able to with regard to those who have no contact orders, that is fine. That said do it on their own time and don't tell the TV folks ahead of time. Having the cameras pan over them during breaks in the game, zooming in on each player, and the announcers recounting their transgressions, is not something I want. Let the announcers talk about the Five if they want, but let it remain abstract. No reason to see any of them in the flesh.
As for moral minorities or whatever complaining about the Five. We mock tOSU for having no standards, tats, free cars, etc. We mock MSU for ski mask raids and fights. However suddenly when people are critical of inviting back players who found themselves at the heart of the worst athletic scandal in our school's history, I see it just the bleating of the moral minority. Like it or not, it happened and trying to white wash it over 10 years after the sanctions doesn't change that. If the school felt it had reasons to avoid contact with the players for the past decade, what suddenly changes just because a new date is showing the calendar? The fact it was a corrupt time for our program remains.
Player*. Rose, Howard, King, Jackson were not at the heart of any scandal. Try again.
Right, because Martin gave Webber hundreds of thousands of dollars, took Cleaves out for booze and strippers on his official visit, gave Bullock's family airline tickets (plus 70k to Bullock), gave Taylor one hundred thousand, gave Traylor a SUV, etc, but Martin never approached or interacted with the other four members of the Fab 5. Also these members noticed all the dirty things that went on during the length of Martin's association with the program. I'm sure Martin just gave Webber a bunch of money to help improve Michigan basketball and ignored all the other recruits.
Rose is considered to be the only person called to testify who didn't receive large amounts of money. I've always found it interesting they say "large amounts of money" instead of "didn't take money". Michigan has opted to to flush the entire period because clearly illegal things happened and we'll never be sure who took what, who turned a blind eye, who said "thanks but no thanks" (and then failed to report the improper contact), etc. As such all the players involved remain tainted.
Why stop there?! I'm sure Ed Martin was giving thousands to most of the football team too. Wheatley and Howard were probably on the take also. We better keep them away.
All the evidence suggests that Ed Martin's involvement with the Michigan basketball program started small and grew over time. I mean if you're going to implicate Juwan Howard, Jimmy King, and Ray Jackson along with Webber and Jalen, then what about Eric Riley? Or Rob Pelinka? Or James Voskuil? Or Dugan Fife? I mean, by the time the scandal broke, it was clear that Martin's involvement with Michigan had gotten way out of control, but there's nothing to suggest he was as ubiquitous a figure in the Fab Five era. Just because 4 players took big money doesn't make EVERY other player at Michigan guilty by association.
Before you indict Michigan, keep in mind that we're the only school that has come clean about our players' dealings with Martin. Not everyone he paid went to school here. He started out as a Detroit street agent and only gradually became associated with U-M.
I don't think anybody is talking about white-washing what happened 20 years ago, but just making peace with it. Right now, it's just this open wound that won't go away and we see the University kind of half-ass sticking their toe in the water with "Jalen Rose Night" or "Jimmy King Night". Four of the five had nothing to do with the Ed Martin scandal and those guys aren't going to turn their back on Webber, so it seems in both parties best interests to just find some common ground. Granted this would involve some give and take on both sides, but it would be awesome if we could just celebrate the good the Fab Five did for Michigan rather than pick at the scab everytime the topic comes up.
So you would not scoff at Ohio making peace with Terrelle Pryor?
I really don't care if they make peace with Terrelle Pryor or not. I think if Webber and the University could find some common ground as to where he could be welcomed back along with his Fab Five teammates, it would be a good thing for Michigan. This would likely involve some kind of public gesture on Chris' part of him acknowledging how his actions hurt U of M and apologizing for it and U of M making a gesture that would honor the Fab Five, so form of quid pro quo.
Regardless, this is a far cry from OSU carrying Tressel around on their shoulders in public defiance that he or Pryor was ever guilty of any wrongdoing.
So in 8 years when Ohio invites Pryor back to celebrate the 2010 Big Ten Championship team you will be supportive? It would be a good public gesture for the University and Pryor to acknowledge wrongdoings and find some common ground.
Or will you be hyper-critical like the rest of our fanbase?
In my mind the university has no reason to invite Webber back. All the wins were vacated and sure once his ban is lifted he can come to the games but why should be honor/celebrate a rule breaker? How do we defend that without admiting our criticism of Pryor, Tressell, and Clarrett was wrong?
This is what I don't understand. Why is this fanbase so obsessed with pointing out everyone, especially our rivals, shortcomings.
Ohio State is more than welcome to bring back Pryor and celebrate his Rose Bowl victory. I think the Tressel thing was funny because they honored him on a day that they would have secured a spot int he NC if it wasn't for him. The circumstances were poor, but how could you just remove what he did for OSU from their history?
Which leads me back to the Fab Five. Broken rules or no broken rules, they are a part of this schools history. All history, bad and good, should be acknowledged.
I like having moral authority so that I can criticize rivals without being hypocritical.
They are a stain on our school's history. Acknowledged? Yes. Honored? No.
Also, keep the banners in the basement.
Moral authority? Lol. You don't have that either way.
Howard, King, Rose, and Jackson are free to sit courtside if they so choose. Webber will be allowed next season. I still don't think the University should officially honor them in any capacity. Maybe I'm just old fashioned (at 24?) but that is how I feel.
I see where you are coming from. I'm sure being a student during that era would have been awesome. But for me all I associate the fab five with is causing the pre Beilein pain.
That party on South U after we beat Kentucky in the 1993 Semi-Finals was epic. So much fun.
You're missing the point. I don't see any scenario where we would invite Webber back to a U of M basketball event with his Fab Five teammates without Chris making some kind of conciliatory gesture to the University. Short of that, I imagine Webber will go on being personna non grata here at Michigan.
I think that scenario is very distinct from OSU allowing Jim Tressel to "retire" rather than be terminated and then parading him around their stadium as a hero while their school suffers under the sanctions that he caused.
Michigan's actions at least demonstrate that they took their scandal seriously.
Bring the guys back courtside...it would be cool for ONE game. Jalen and Jimmy sat next to me courtside vs. MSU a few years back when D. Sims missed a last second layup/shot attempt to win the game. I think that was 2009. No one seemed to notice/care that much if I recall (although it was on Sportscenter).
Let me start by saying that I am, and will always be, an unabashed supporter of the Fab 5. Were they perfect? Far from it. Did they, as 17-20 year old kids make mistakes. Definitely (allegedly definitely). But, they are a central part of the fabric of Michigan basketball, and that will never change. For me, personally, the Fab 5 were part of the reason I chose to come to Michigan (in 1994). Between 21's "hello Heisman" only a few years prior and the "cool factor" that the Fab 5 brought, as a sports nut, Michigan became my dream school.
All of that said, the Fab 5 have no place at the tourney this year. Why?
1. Distraction - If our team advanced deap into the tourney, we want them focused. Sure, Coach Beilein will do as good of a job as any at keeping the players focused, but it would be impossible for them to not get even a bit distracted by the circus that this would create.
2. media attention - this team has worked their asses of to get to where they are. From Hardaway working to bring up his dribble and outside touch, to Burke working on his defense, to Staus taking 1 billion shots a day in his back yard, to Morgan losing weight to become more agile, this team has put in the work to get to where they are, and they deserve their moment in the sun. The media will inevitably talk about the Fab 5 anyway, but why magnify it? Let these kids have their time.
3. Perhaps this could be included in #1 above, but I would imagine that there would be many fans of both Michigan and our opposing team who would loudly boo these guys. Why subject the current players to this.
In summary, I don't see anything good that can come of this. That said, I would like to see the Fab 5 welcomed back. Just don't do it in the tourney with so much on the line for these players. Have them attend the opener in Ann Arbor (once CWEb's ban is over), but not the tourney.
Fine. That's awesome support and would be "cool."
But we should wait until the ban is over to honor them in any way...but we SHOULD honor them. They happened, period.
Also, I love Jalen's idea and support of Michigan, but he doesn't always know what he's talking about. He said Michigan's success is because we started recruiting our own backyard again. Uhhh....Jordan Morgan?
Miami, Columbus, Canada, Indiana, Indiana, Ohio, etc.
Morgan may be the only player on the team from the state of Michigan.
Here is how honoring them would go...
And now taking center court are the members of Michigan's Fab Five. These five players took college basketball by storm and in 1991-1992 and 1992-1993 they went to two consecutive final ......... Interesting, the record reflects that they did not win a single game in these seasons. Welcome back your fab five!!!!
Sadly, the last time we made it as far as the Sweet 16, Jalen, Jimmy, Juwan and Ray were on the roster.
If we can finally make it to the second round of the tournament this year, I think the media will be bringing up those names regardless if they are sitting at a game or not.
and on the fifth seat put a stack of pizzas.
A stack of $50s. Either way.
Make sure they're Dominos.
Webber wouldn't want to be a part of it anyway. I don't think former players watching any game this year regardless of time and venue would have any impact on how Michigan performs. Having Jalen, Juwan, Ray, and Jimmy show support for a team and university they obviously love is something that should be embraced.
didnt read the freep piece, but i saw a short clip on espn yesterday where they interviewed jalen about the current team, i'm assuming this piece might've spun from those comments. think its paywalled/insider, but for those interested in the source - http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/colleges/michigan/post/_/id/9795/jalen-rose-on-nations-new-no-1
jalen works for espn as an analyst right? he'd likely be there anyway if/when our team is in a big march madness game.
Jalen was also on SportsCenter last night and was asked why it took UM 20 years to return to #1? He said you have to recruit locally in Michigan and he mentioned Glenn Rice and Terry Mills, himself and CWebb, and for Sparty: Cleaves and MoPete.
Help me out here, don't we have just two scholarship players from Michigan? Are Horford and Morgan driving all of our success this year?
Nice try Jalen. Try making more sense next time.
Actually he stated that to have "long-term" success for the program you have to be able to recruit your own backyard.
The balance of power in the state changed with the SUV accident. Cleaves went to State and the whole Flintstone crew followed. That Saginaw/Flint area was locked down and all that talent went to East Lansing. Actually Izzo gets criticized because despite all of his success he doesn't reel in a lot of talent from out the Midwest.
And don't overlook Jordan Morgan's contributions the last few years. He's been our best post player for what should be three consecutive tournament teams. Who knows where we'd be without his contributions.
Due to the distraction that such a reunion would cause, I would prefer that if it were to happen, it take place at a game with little intrigue on the court. Penn State, completely defeated in conference play, could be the perfect game for it. * Disclaimer - when the photos of the new freshman class were going around before the season, my first thought was, "Why is McGary wearing Webber's jersey?" So, I'm obviously still a fan of the Fab Five.
Weber would agree to this.
I don't care where they meet up, but just keep Chris Webber off campus.
Not this year. This team needs to stay focused and hungry. No distractions please.
At this point in MBB history, the Fab Five can probably provide some decent marketing for the team. Anything that draws even more attention to the team is good, especially for recruiting. It could be that kids these days don't remember the Fab Five but I bet a lot of kids still watch and know about these famous Michigan alums. Would them attending a tournament game be a distraction to the current players? I doubt it unless the Fab Five is a presence in the locker room before the game. Then again, the players would probably LOVE to meet those guys - collectively, they're probably the most famous "player" in Michigan history So, in short, I think them attending a game would be a great thing. I think the only "distraction" would be that TV commentators would constantly commenting about it.
This is a tricky situation. As opposed to Duke, etc. who have a relatively unbroken lineage, there is way more meaning in having the Fab 5 come back. While my experience (was in East Quad with them at orientation back in 91 and witnessed pretty much the whole run) may bias me, I think that they should be welcomed back at some point.
That being said, there would need to be some apologies on the part of the Fab 5 (esp Webber) as well as some acknowledgement that this would be about supporting the current team. Of course it would be more than that but respect needs to be shown for the current team. I would also imagine having them meet the current team behind closed doors first would be ideal.
If this were done correctly, it would be incredibly valuable for the program for the fact is that there has not imo been a more important college basketball team in the past 40 years
As long as they don't want some sort of ceremony, I'd love this. Make an announcement that the Fab Five is in attendance during the first TV timeout, they'll get an ovation and it'll be done with. Fine by me.
Not sure about Webber due to his non-contact and the fact he didn't come forward with it, but the rest have grown and are still a huge part of Michigan basketball. I don't think it takes anything away from what the current team and their success.
I find it interesting that our fan base is the one that forgives Webber/Fab 5 the least. It's like the opposite of Ohio. Other fan bases, and the media especially, LOVE the Fab 5 and LOVE to still mention them 20 years later. They have forgiven, but it seems like the University hasn't, which is something I'm proud of, but not necessarily agree with.
Many Michigan basketball fans are like Star Wars fans. They love and hate George Lucas more than anyone else.
Give 'em what they want
I'm all for it, the punishments have been doled out and we've basically been in the basement for a decade and a half. The suffering can be over, I think it would be very, very unique and exciting and awesome to welcome them back. They are iconic to basketball.
Invite the Fab 5 to the Ohio State game and have a pre-game ceremoney to re-hang thier banners from the 90s.
There is no way Mary Sue brings those banners out of the basement.
I know. I just seems like they could go up if Ohio State can have a Tessel butt licking ceremoney less than two years after he left in disgrace.
Yes but that is the reason we still have moral authority and Ohio does not.
Even after May 1st there is no way she allows it to happen. She was embarrassed by the Ed Martin Scandal and won't forget it quickly.
Listen to the Jalen Rose podcast on the Grantland Network. Even he doesn't think they will put those banners back up.
He also has some interesting insight on why it has taken 20 years for Michigan to become a national contender again.
I really don't get the hate for the Fab Five, especially for Jalen saying he wants to get the guys together to cheer on the team they all played for. I hope Glen Rice is saying the same thing to the 89 team, I hope Manny Harris and DeShawn Sims are talking about it, I hope Jammal Crawford is thinking about, I hope Daniel Horton and Courtney Sims are looking to book flights to Atlanta. They put on the Maize and Blue and love the team just like we do. There is nothing wrong with them trying to ge togher to watch the best team we have had since the 92/93 season.
Also, I really don't get why the Fab Five is looked at as cheaters. If I am correct, Michigan never payed them to play here, right? Did they take money to alter the vegas line? They never took banned substances. They never filmed other teams practices to get an edge. They didn't cheat. What they did on the court, they worked hard for and they earned those back to back Final Fours. Yes, they took money that was given to them. But from everything I read, that money was not given to them to play for Michigan.
I guess we better get ready to call the '97 football team a bunch of attention whores when we start to talk about them more in the coming years as the football team competes for a NC (obvious caveat about C-Webb et al taking benefits aside).
If they want to go a game and show their support regardless of their past transgressions, let them. They didnt kill anyone for gods sake.
Would SMU let Craig James walk the sidelines at one of their games? I've heard a rumor about him and 5 ladies of the night.
How about a Fab Four reunion? I don't think the person who dug a ten-year ditch for the University of Michigan's basketball program with his greed, and has never offered up a mea culpa or apology, should be allowed back in any official capacity. Ever.
I say #FreeTheFab5
And a hearty wanking motion to the holier than thous saying no.
Do you really believe that stretching to long is the same as taking money from a booster?
I believe if you read 3 And Out by John U. Bacon he address who was at fault in the Athletic Department for failing to keep up to date forms. Also something about a quality control person told the kids he was an assistant coach which led to some confusion. There were adults who took the heat for Stretchgate and are no longer working for the University.
Still this pales in comparison to taking six figures and showing no contrition when busted.
I don't blame just Webber. I blame the coaches for not keeping a closer eye on the type of contact Ed Martin was having with their players. Those guys all knew who Ed Martin was and his involvement with Detroit baskeball players, but they turned a blind eye. I blame the Athletic Department and Compliance (if there even was such a thing 20 years ago) for not keeping closer tabs on the basketball program. Webber makes an easy target in the eyes of many fans, but he's far from the only transgressor in this scandal.
I think it would be best if every player who had wins vacated came back. Yes, the Fab 5 was the overwhelming driver of value, but those important role players who had absolutely nothing to do with the sanctions got screwed, too.
Why is it automatically a Fab 5 reunion? What about Rob Pelinka, Eric Riley, James Voskuil, Dugan Fife, and all the other players not in the Fab 5? Without Riley, the Fab 5 doesn't make the Final Four in 91-92. Without Voskuil, they don't beat Cincinnati and make the title game that same year. Etc., etc., etc.
I love the Fab 5, and I was one of those students who filled Crisler to the rafters back then. But let's have some more respect and recognition for the other guys on those teams who busted their butts for Michigan.
The school would be surprised at the reception some of those guys would get. Even Jason Bossard would get love from the alumni at that time. I think that if you honor the entire team, it can take some of the negative press away.
Like it or not the Fab Five did a lot to not only impact U of M in a positive way (not just negative) but they also transformed a culture. People need to stop getting their panties in a bunch over them and what happened. With that said, of the five the one who gets the least respect is Webber. His silence in the Fab Five doc and throughout has me believing that he knew what he did was wrong and that he doesn't regret it. I don't hate Webber at all, it's just easier to let something go when the one at fault apologizes. I think the Fab Five attending a game is cool. Honoring them would be off limits IMO.
Would set us up for recruiting the next two years. Would be awesome.
The Fab Five has zilch to do with this team or it's current success. This program was built in spite of them, not on their legacy. At this point they are a liability. How about not compounding what you did to this university and staying the hell way? This isn't about you.