well that's just, like, your opinion, man
I just saw that too. This is not good, even if it is "just" exceeding practice time. Bad news after bad news.
Also the claim that "numerous players" told the FreePress the story anonymously could create a rift in the locker room between players.
as long as none of the coaching staff were present at the work outs and/or pushing them along by threatening the loss of their scholly by not participating, everything is kosher. at BG we joked about the "voluntarilly manditory" work outs we had in the offseason. i got bitched up one side and down another when i missed one, but there is nothing the staff can do (aside from "running" individuals who miss workouts) to those who do not participate.
the bottom line is, as players, you know you have to put the work in in the off season if you want to be worth a damn as a team. from the sounds of the story, it's pissin' moaning from guys that were punished in some way for not putting in their fair share of work to help improve the team.
most likly this is someone that's disgruntled and blowing smoke that doesn't completely understand NCAA rules in this matter and found a reporter that might have been bored and looking for a story that would sell some papers. michigan football rules violations on a headline would do just that, even if the NCAA finds there was no wrong doing.
Which let's be realistic I'm sure that several players that left are on that list of "oh we ran too much" *Cough* Boren *Cough cough*
And like I said in the CIL if we get major violations from this and USC gets nothing the system is obviously flawed.
How many screen names have you registered to + yourself?
I have no idea who is doing it
but do you read the freep?
You took the exact words out of my e-mouth.
Ever heard of Jayson Blair?
Was Rosenberg beaten up by Carson Butler?
It's the timing my friend, the timing that bothers me. 1 week before the opener? No agenda there? I'm not buying it.
The timing is deadly. I don't think there is any coincidence that this comes out now. One week before the season starts--and Rodriguez will be answering to Old Guard powers still in the AD as well as the media and probably Bill Martin. To have to spend the next week addressing this is going to test this man and his staff like nothing else.
With nothing more than an "ear to the ground," I have come to the conclusions that there is a schism at UM between academics who see sports as nothing more than a necessary evil and coaches who try to put a winning product on the field; there is a schism in the athletic department between the remnants of Bo/Mo/Lo and new people who see the changing field of athletics in terms of an arms race and more dedication to putting winning products out there; a schism between elitist snobbery and reality; and, of course, a wide rift between New UM (read: football) and the media that may be fueled by the secretive nature of past regimes or dominant alpha-dog regimes who at times had adverse relationships with the media.
I also believe that a lot of the seeming dislike for Rodriguez is the result of a media and some in the AD who believe Lloyd Carr has been treated unfairly with regard to his tenure and his legacy. I have felt there has been a backlash against the fans who seemed to feel positive about Lloyd finally hanging it up and who have welcomed a coach who embraces (IMO) the type of atmosphere, on the field, that many would criticize as being worthy of the SEC.
The hypocrisy of this situation, from a media standpoint, is maddening. NCAA football is a cash-cow industry that directly employs, and rather exhorbitantly, many, MANY people; and many of them turn up on radio shows, blogs, newspapers, and TV shows to wage some sort of moral war with this cash cow that is nothing more than disingenuous self puffery when they question or criticize what it takes to win and build winning programs. But as we see, not too many of them are covering Yale Vs Harvard games, and not too many people are clamoring for glamourous SAT Bowls between Vanderbilt and Northwestern.
Now, rules are rules, and if Rodriguez and his guys broke 'em, they in trouble and deservedly so. Rodriguez also has HAD to have known that he wouldn't be able to clip his nosehairs without someone reporting on his technique, or doing a front-page story because Rita bitched that he didn't clean the clippings out of the bathroom sink.
As this staff's story keeps unfolding, 20/20 hindsight becomes easier. A Les Miles or Greg Schiano "transitional" hire may have been what was needed (especially because Lloyd had exactly ZERO assistants capable of taking over and doing well), rather than such a culture shock that seems to have ignited all kinds of brush fires in Ann Arbor. Martin ignored a search committee that twice recommended Miles; he then went out and got His Man. Miles may have ruffled Lloyd's feathers, but the Prodigal Son returning home certainly could have thwarted what has turned into a daily circus and a feeding frenzy of negative press.
Shit is the only thing I can think of. I stopped reading the Freep because it's apparently not edited and they have no standards of journalism at all. There is NO objectivity or quality control.
I seriously doubt there was more than one semi-competent editor that got near this story and I'm sure the idea of a lawyer reviewing every article for slander/libelous content is absolutely laughable with the content of the average article coming out of the Freep.
This may be way overblown, and something that all of the major programs could be criticized for.
But don't think that the Freep just put this in the paper without vetting it. This is the paper that nailed ex-Mayor Kwame K. They would have to know the consequences of getting it wrong, particularly given the timing (on their website the Saturday night before the first game, so it can be picked up everywhere for Sunday).
This is Page One on the Sports Internet today. And it ain't moving off that page any time soon. It's the last thing that the program needed, and I think if even 5% is accurate, it's really hard to recover from.
A 3-9 season is one thing. NCAA violations are something else.
UM better come out with guns blazing; if they turtle and hide behind a "no comment pending investigation," watch out.
I'm hoping, but it's not easy to be hopeful...
Um, this year the Freep won the Pulitzer Prize for local reporting. It singlehandedly investigated the Kilpatrick scandal. Kilpatrick, like a certain Ms. Palin, tried to make the same argument you're now making. Don't like what you're hearing? Blame the press.
Honestly, you work for the Freep, don't you?
Have some integrity.
An article like this one isn't written in a vacuum, by some rogue columnist with a grudge. A story this big will have gone through several layers of editors, lawyers, etc., all of of them endlessly vetting and nitpicking every interview and transcript. The potential consequences are too huge for everyone involved.
Dan Rather and I couldnt agree more.
- Mary Mapes
You're taking a one in a thousand example of a botched investigation. Also you're totally dismissing the likelihood that the Free article may well be true, or largely true. The Freep does not have a reputation for blowing big investigative stories. It just won a Pulitzer for reporting.
The timing of the story probably isn't "suspicious"; it's because players assembled for practice only this month.
And the article clearly states that it interviewed both past and current players; it also notes that other current players, without giving interviews, acknowledged that this stuff is going on. And the freshmen, Stokes et al, flatly stated what's going on. (They just didn't know it's illegal.) The Freep isn't just making this shit up out of thin air.
yet to see anything of substance saying this is actually the case
The free press reporting it huh...with Snyder part of the "investigation" I bet.
I'll believe this one when I see it.
if those "players" were satisfied with 3-9, then they should have left the program at the end of last year.
Indeed, more bad news. Snyder is a Michigan alum who even goes to games when he's not working. I don't think he's the type out there looking to dump the program the way some of the guys in the AA News were. Really scares me that our own players are reporting on the program. This strikes me as particularly bad.
"That player was one of six current or former players who gave lengthy, detailed and nearly identical descriptions of the program to the Free Press. "
What do you put the over/under on how many were jaded players who are not playing for Michigan anymore.. I'll say 3.5
Nothing will come of this, but it's still bad news. If kids are willing to come forward, it's irresponsible to ask the Freep not to report on it.
It's not what they reported but how, completely sensationalized and one sided.
When your sources give you a sensationalized, one sided story what are you supposed to report?
They admit in article they did lengthy interviews with at least 4-5 players who did not give the same accounts and don't give that side once.
Actually they say five gave detailed accounts, one confirmed and "several" declined to be interviewed. Several to me means at least three.
They specifically say they interviewed 10 current or former players.
What I said covers nine players. So one said it wasn't true?
I guess were talking semantics now but the way I read it was if you decline an interview you aren't being interviewed. The several was an attempt at extra interviews.
It doesn't really matter. I'm not supporting Rosenberg's vendetta, just that there's nothing journalistically wrong with reporting it.
I kind of get why you are defending this, but I don't agree with it. So I negged you, that's what we have points for, right?
I was under the impression that we had points to reward users for good posts and punish users for idiocy, spam, etc. Don't neg someone just because you disagree with them, neg them for posts that are complete crap, like encouraging people to boo at football games.
I was joking, in case you hadn't noticed. Have you not seen me rail against the blatant mis-use of the point system previously? Because I have, many times.
practice. Practice! Practice! Not the game. We're talkin about practice...
Seriously, I hope this isn't substantially true enough to be a major violation (in the letter of the law or in spirit). Like most, I'm not a "college football practice time" expert, so I'll just let the facts come out for now.
This is most likely a case of the scorned ex-lover.(former players and players that are currently on the team but not "players") This could be blown waaaay out of proportion. And why are they telling the press this? Any player who rats out the program for something like this is not "All In".
Damn kids these days, video games have softened them up. MEMO: You might have to work hard to be more than 8-4 every year.
If RR and staff are wrong then I hope the truth and justice comes out, but this just sounds like another petty thing to knit-pick the program. Change is hard sometimes.
It's bad, bad news if true. But you have to ask: why would Rodriguez never, ever do this at West Virginia and all of a sudden start blatantly violating a really obvious rule at Michigan?
That's my question, too. It seems like a really stupid rule to violate so flagrantly all of a sudden. (By stupid, I mean one that the NCAA takes seriously, not stupid as in a useless rule.)
Do you really think Rodriguez all of a sudden changed the way he runs the program when he got to Michigan? Of course he didn't. He's doing exactly what he's always done, and what I'm sure a large number of programs in the country do. These "voluntary workout" rules are a joke.
And the reason why you haven't heard about it until now is because the local media at WVU doesn't have such an obvious agenda against the University like the Free Press does with Michigan. One would have to be a fool not to have noticed it by now.
I think it was kind of a sarcastic question on his part.
...abuse of elective workouts is rife throughout college sports. My experience was one inglorious year running cross country, but if there is pressure on non-revenue sports that no one ever watches, I have to assume that it happens even more in football and basketball. For us, it wasn't like they threw in extra practices out of the field house... you'd just get a phone call from a captain telling you what the "involuntary" schedule was for that week and if you didn't show up it was known that that information was going to make its way up the ladder, and if you were a walk-on (me) you could lose your chance at a scholarship.
But you never would talk about such things, both because of the potential repercussions and that for a lot of athletes your team is your group of friends - you really don't spend a lot of time with other people on campus. What worries me about this article is that my fear that if people are talking, it's because of a lack of camaraderie or hostility towards the coaches. I sure as shit hope that isn't the case - it's a lot easier for me as a fan to keep thinking that the Freep is pulling gotcha BS in the preseason just to sell advertising.
Do you seriously get the impression that's what I think he did?
No, obviously. We're talking about a guy about whom a major criticism was that he was inflexibly bringing his system in come hell or high water, no matter what the personnel. He also, as you may have noticed, never got in trouble with the NCAA. There are other ways to find out about violations besides nosy reporters, you know.
Now we're supposed to believe this highly inflexible coach that's too set in his Not Michigan ways came in with a whole brand new way of doing business that he never used before. Something smells. How come this didn't come up last season, for one?
*edit - sorry, I've had a few too many beers.
and you know what? Freep had better watch themselves. Look what happened to the last local paper that tried to be clever and "expose" Michigan's athletic program "for what it really is" hehehehe, Michigan fans - 1 Ann Arbor News - 0; for all eternity.
Well there is Stokes and Hawthorne describing the time commitment of their offseason workouts to the media... but that gets into the voluntary versus involuntary gray area.
Obviously the big problem is the in season stuff, the claims about film/practicing for 9 hours on Sundays... that absurd, that absolutely better not have been the case.
Hello, blue note.
Hmm, so they have been going over on practices huh? I wouldn't suppose that ever happened under Lloyd. Or ever happened elsewhere.
If USC can pay players, I'm not really sure how practicing for longer than what is considered allowable (which is not only arbitrary, but also routinely broken) is considered a negative thing.
Especially, when, you know, we were well above our normal academic standards last season.
We're talking about practice
We aren't talking about buying a player a house
We're talking about practice
The fact that USC remains untouched is pretty awesome evidence of how ineffectual the NCAA is.
That cuts to the heart of NCAA's lack of subpoena power. Oh and all the crap about USC paying players is ridiculous. The only real evidence (in football) is against one player (Bush) and that was by an outside agent trying to lock down a signing for a future NFL star. USC did not just hand over cash to the kid. Whether they knew about it is one thing, but at this point nothing is proven.
Tim Floyd paid a player $1000. I know it is a different sport, but I really hate the whole school, and i find the football program guilty by association.
So basically what you are saying is that you not only don't know how to read or formulate a proper argument, but you are also a hypocrite?
USC football has had nothing come out against it that would indicate the program itself was dirty unlike basketball. I specifically qualified this in my original post.
In saying that you think football is guilty by association you should definitely take into account the basketball scandal that happened HERE years back. Is Michigan football not guilty by association?
You are allowed to hate USC or any other school/program you want. What you are not allowed to do is make baseless accusations and pass them off as gospel.
Actually, the M scenario -- if true -- would be much worse. Floyd did something creepy with one player, individually. The M scenario would be a vast institutional cheat by the entire coaching staff, plus by the AD (for being either complicit or totally out to lunch). Let's be clear: the practice cheat, if it indeed turns out to be one, would amount to a major violation of NCAA laws, which exist for very good reasons. And, unlike the SC thing, this one goes directly to "competitive advantage," rather than recruiting. Stop deluding yourself. A team that gets to practice/workout far more than other teams does is getting a huge competitive advantage, a la steroids.
And, please, don't resort to the "others do it, too" argument. That doesn't make it right. The only difference there is that other schools in other places (Alabama et al) are covered only by half-assed "newspapers" that function as PR offices.
they set a GPA record and still did this? Guess they are student-athletes afterall.
I didn't get the sense that players were complaining about the workouts, they were just saying what you would expect them to say after a Barwis workout -- it's not easy! But no top football programs' S&C program is easy. The article really lacks comparison with other programs.
"For this report, the Free Press interviewed 10 current or former players and the parents of four others. In separate interviews, five players gave almost identical accounts of how the program is run, and a sixth player confirmed most of the descriptions. Other players, as well as parents of additional players, discussed the conditions in general. Several players declined to be interviewed at length but did not dispute the allegations when asked specifically about them."
Where is quotes from the 4 players who disagreed? Where's the other side? They mention that they can extend the hours if it's voluntary. Just because it feels like it's mandatory doesn't mean it is. How many kids had there scholarships pulled this year for not participating fully with workouts? - None, no one was kicked off the team for any reason. This just shows how far Carr let this team slip the last couple of years.
the freep is dragging Carr through the mud with these things.
They do not follow the rules in the strict sense, its a grey area for sure. I am willing to bet that Lloyd actually followed the rules to the letter. But I also believe 70%-90% of schools do close to the same thing. I know the "strength staff" instructs football drills. They use taped towels to create footballs and work on mechanics etc. Is it right or wrong, I don't know. But it is a fact that they do football stuff that they are not "supposed" to do.
I really had the sense that the 'reporters' were going pretty far out of their way to extrapolate comments into violations.
I do anticipate that there were now be some additional team meetings involving review of NCAA rules and how to talk to reporters.
"One player, echoing the words of others, said the workouts in the past two off-seasons at Michigan “affected people’s grades. People were falling asleep in class.”"
Really falling asleep in class? I didn't play any sports, had no job and just did school and I fell asleep in class. It's really not that difficult to do.
Class is boring especially 8 ams...
UM football reportedly had the highest GPA in school history last semester... hmmm.. so there is no correlation between higher expectations of S&C... to academics...
or maybe there is if you stop with the "higher expectations" leading to actually higher results, on and off the field.
but that is all I have. I fell asleep in class more than once, and I am just fine now, lol. Give us a break.
Wow Bouje, this is the first time I've seen you getting positive points on a post. Give yourself a pat on the back!
Oh ya, I also slept through basically half my classes and still did better than most.
I slept through an entire semester of material science classes, and still managed to graduate and become a functional member of society. Mine was due to drinking toooooooo much, which is an asinine reason. If I were able to play football for Michigan, I gladly would have slept through classes.
I really, really hope this isn't true. This is not in any way how I hoped this season would begin.
I can say with 100% certainty that this is bullshit. One of my closest friends just graduated from Michigan State, and during his time as a student he was friendly with more than one player on MSU's football team, and on more than one occasion he would tell me about workouts going on in the summer at odd times, with assistant coaches present, etc.
This sort of stuff happens everywhere. The agenda being peddled by the Freep and that ass sniffer Rosenberg is clear. They've waited for 40 years for an opportunity to tear down Michigan, and they're not wasting it. They've become emotionally invested in seeing Rodriguez fail here, and they'll do whatever it takes to make sure it happens.
I'm sure by Monday this will have blown up to the point that Brian will need to do yet another taking apart of that idiot Rosenberg, but believe me: this is not an issue. This happens at every single major BCS program in the country. Every single one.
I agree that this stuff happens everywhere but you don't have the local papers reporting it most places and bringing it to the national spotlight. That's why it's a big deal.
Exactly. It's an agenda being pushed forward by people who aren't interested in "reporting", they're interested in being the next Woodward and Bernstein.
If the Columbus Dispatch wasn't in the tank for Ohio State and actually did the digging that Rosenberg is trying to do, OSU would be a wasteland and Tressel would be setting up pins in a bowling alley back in Youngstown.
The OSU fans would burn the Dispatch to the ground before they had a chance, haha.
take a cue from them and think of ways to take down the freep.
The Dispatch and the Plain Dealer (which covers OSU as a local team) have their anti-OSU columnists, too.
Nothing like this. They don't have anybody who's going to lie to football players like Carty did during his "investigation" into the academics. They don't have anybody who's going to put this rubbish out a week before the season starts.
Tressel's past speaks for itself, but there isn't a journalist in Ohio that's going to dig as deep as Rosenberg's trying to dig. There's a difference between being an "anti-OSU columnist" and what Rosenberg is.
What is Rosenberg, exactly? A guy looking to for some quick fame? Probably. A guy who hates Rodriguez because he didn't give a shit that he's an alum? Most likely. An unethical journalist? I'm not willing to go that far.
A journalist who puts out the shit that he has been putting out because of a personal grudge is the definition of unethical.
This is his first real report and he has players to back it up. Everything before this has been a columnist expressing an epinion.
It's a column.
It's an opinion piece that is critical of Rodriguez. He's grinding his ax.
I never said he wasn't. I merely said this is the first time he's reported on Michigan and he wasn't even the only reporter credited here.
Anonymous sources who may or may not still be with the program does not exactly make this article a rock of journalistic integrity. Hell, most of Rosenberg's quotes come from Mike Barwis. Rosenberg is trying to doom the program with 18 month old quotes by the team's own strength coach. That is the definition of spin
Most hometown papers protect their teams, not try to rip them down.
agreed. But most hometown newspapers haven't given up distribution for several days of the week, and are basically circling the drain.
The antics of the Freep need to be viewed through the lens that it is a dying organization and whatever they think that they can do to add eyeballs they will do.
"The players say they routinely are required to work out or practice many more hours throughout the year than the NCAA allows. They also say members of Rodriguez’s staff have broken rules by monitoring off-season scrimmages."
I will have to go back and read the rules again but I am 90% sure that assistant coaches like the S&C coaches are allowed to be at off season workouts. I am not sure if only particular coaches are named as being eligible but Graduate Assistants also have things they can legally do which an assistant coach cannot under the NCAA rules. So if the writer or the students are lumping the GAs in with the assistant coaches then it is going to be misleading.
What constitutes monitoring off-season scrimmages is a bit grey as well. If this "monitoring" is merely a player reporting back to a coach on what has been going on in 7on7s over the summer that isn't anything. If its a coach actually organizing and viewing off season practices outside of training camp then it is a major violation.
EDIT: As was posted later in this thread, an updated article,
Say what you want about the writer's agenda but from the rule book I remember, that is a lot of violations and everything he has written has a lot backing it up.
Agree... Absolute Bullshit. It happens everywhere. EVERYWHERE!
Whoever came forward is just lazy and doesn't want to work.
Awesome! A blanket statement on a subject you know nothing about. Keep up the good work!
the only bad thing to come from this will be more negative PR.
The best part of the whole thing is the State part of it titieled: "MSU plays by the rules, say ex-players"
It really seams like they frame those questions to the positive side too. “Not at all. Absolutely coach Dantonio is a stand-up guy. I don’t believe he would break any rules.”
Always trying to find something wrong with the most picture perfect program in the country
Big-time. Before, here was merely stating his opinion about the style of Rodriguez's program.
Now he has players and parents on the record -- unnamed, but willing to talk -- accusing the program of NCAA violations.
There's no way this gets swept under the rug.
What I want to know is, how come there is rigorous, almost fanatical work done by reporters in this media market to expose everything they can about the program, while OSU gets the ass-sucking, homer, front-running, never-print-a-negative-word Columbus flippin' Dispatch??
It really, really pisses me off. They get a free pass.
There are plenty of universities that do get such investigations from the local press. The Dispatch is a comparatively small paper with a sports section that relies entirely on access to OSU, they really can't afford to dig too deeply.
defending the journalistic integrity of the freep. However, you just stated that the Dispatch should have no such integrity. Because of money? I think that patent unfairness would be one of the main points of other posters.
I'm explaining why the Dispatch doesn't do this, not defending them.
I must have misunderstood.
The Freep considers itself, to a degree correctly, as the paper for Detroit first, then the state of Michigan. Both Detroit and the state as a whole have significantly more State alumni and fans then UM, because UM alumni leave the state in greater numbers than State and State has a higher undergraduate population in the first place. Therefore, you should generally consider the Freep to be the local paper for State fans.
As the Freep is in a somewhat dire situation financially, they are not likely to want to antagonize their primary base of readers, namely State fans. Hence the anti-UM stories that often border the realm of the ludicrous, mixed in with favorable State coverage, such as glossing over Glenn Winston's release from prison for assault just in time for preseason camp. State fans do not want to hear that their football players going to prison and then back to the football field, they want to hear that Michigan practices too much.
While I won't disagree with you entirely, i think what miffs a lot of U of M fans is that that several of the worst offenders at the freep are U of M alums. It seems at times that they are given inside access to the school as a result of their status as alumni and rather than using this opportunity to write objectively about the athletic program, they cherry pick quotes and concoct hit pieces based on ridiculous assertions and allegations.
there are more state grads, doesn't mean that they can read.
Saw it already on ESPN bottomline during Baseball Tonight...ugh
1 week before game 1..... nice timing Freep.
It has been obvious since the begining of RR era at Michigan that Rosenberg and Snyder to a lessor extent have set out to smear RR in any way possible and now this is coming to a head.
The really disappointing thing about it is: a) they dont mention any names just some alleged players with some comments... so we are supposed to take Rosenbergs word on all this when he CLEARLY has an agenda...
b) the national media will be all over this like hot-cakes and we will hear more about it in the next 3 days...much more, Rome..PTI etc. get ready.
c) Michigan had better win NOW or RR is gone. I hate to say it, because they have not been given a chance, but I am convinced now that certain forces are out to get him out of UM. Its obvious now.
Snyder is a Michigan man. REALLY. He has his degree. Goes to games when he's not working and bleeds maize and blue. This guy is one of us. That said, he has a job to do and, whomever these players are clearly dropped a story in his lap. The guy has a job to do. Again, what concerns me is the possibility that players on the team might be among the six. I'd love to know at least whether these players are guys who are still on the team.
As per comment (c) I suspect you're correct. Too much bad press (right or wrong, deserved or not). If he has a losing record I suspect the pressure will be too great for the school to keep him and they can use all the press as the impetus to remove him.
Personally, I'm just annoyed about the distraction.
I've heard from multiple people I know with ties to the AD that there is a large Carr contingent still... I'm wondering if they would take the first opportunity to campaign for RichRod's ousting.
I'll be honest, I'm really scared of what will happen if we go 5-7 now.
What do they want??? You know what I mean. I agree with you, there is a "Carr Contingent" in the press, amongst the former players and in the administration. But why would Carr dislike Rodriguez from the get go??? Rodriguez got this job in part due to Don Nehlen vouching for him and Don is a Bo/Mo/Lloyd co-hort. My understanding was that the Carr Contigent was out there trying to stop the Les Miles hire so how many coaches can they have been organizing against?
I'd heard rumors to the effect of Carr not liking the fact that DeBord got no serious consideration for the job.
At the end of the day, Debord turned Central Michigan around from a terrible team into a laughing stock. No one wanted that to happen with Michigan.
oh my god....DeBord? Carr, why don't you just pencil in eight more losses to OSU already?
Snyder is not one of me...and Im not one of him. RR has not caused most of these "distractions"...for the most part it is Snyder, Rosenberg and the Freep out to prove their agenda.
It is a modern day witch hunt to its very core.
and...it is despicable.
I don't know what you are tom, but Mark is a Michigan man. Can't speak for Rosenberg or the Freep agenda (although it certainly appears there is one and its not good for Michigan). Mark is also a journalist and if these players were putting this out there, he has a job to do. He can't bury it. More important than blaming the journalists to me is the fear that, it appears from the article that there is some kind of discontent in the program and needless to say not everyone wearing the helmets are "All In". I would have liked to know some more info on who the sources were. Were they guys who left? Backups or someone who may held a grudge.
That richrod suddenly changed his coaching methods when he came to uofm. The biggest change in his move was him stepping into a situation where a contingent of so called "Michigan Men" coagulated from the remnants of the past, and this group doesn't like RichRod. Its not out of the question that Snyder is part of this cabal of old timers, and putting out an article exposing violations that good high school programs get away with. It seems real fucking fishy.
In regards to Rosenberg being a Michigan man, yes, he probably is. But I have yet to meet a fanbase with more self-hating fans than Michigan. Maybe Brandeis or the Catholic University of America.
Don't know anything about him beyond what he writes. Refering to Mark Snyder.
Got it, though I still think we as a fanbase are very harsh on ourselves. If that made any sense at all.
What in that article suggests Rosenberg and Snyder are "smearing RR in any way possible"?
This article was pretty objective if you ask me.
Terrance Taylor admitted to 10 hour Sundays. There's no journalistic cheap shots being taken there. They are simply reporting.
Does every team in the nation do it? Maybe. That doesn't make their report an "agenda."
This sucks, and I love Michigan and Rich Rod, but we can't blindly dismiss this article.
A completely and totally legit question with no snark attached: Do you think the timing is a coincidence?
But, and I ask this knowing little of how a newspaper works, but is the decision of when to run this type of article made by the writer/reporter or the editor?
I would logically assume the editor, who is probably more concerned with selling papers/page views than the reporters.
At the same time, if it was a week earlier, I don't think we'd be any less perturbed by when it was released.
I think it depends. I've had some time in the journalism field (not print) and can say that it really is a conversation between the editor and the reporter, but the editor does have a major (if not final in some cases) say. So does that mean the editor waited for this to come out? Probably. Does that make the editor any better than Rosenberg? Nope.
Just seems odd it took them two years to compile this data, when most hard working reporters could have written this (after interviews) in two days.
the article, at worst, implies that Michigan under Lloyd Carr DIDN'T have 9-hour Sunday sessions and go over off-season conditioning and in-season practice limits. So there's at least one example of team that didn't do it.
If your point is that Carr ran a clean program and our record suffered because of it, then I have to question whether you believe that winning or upholding the integrity of the university is more important. If Carr's desire to uphold the football program to a high standard of integrity was detrimental to the team's performance, then he should be admired because of it.
Note: I do not mean to insinuate that Rodriguez is not holding the team to a high standard of integrity. In fact, I feel that would be stupid, considering the team's GPA last year. Although I'm sure that the Freep is now attempting to get some professor to claim that Rodriguez forced faculty to give football players better grades or something as part of the paper's continuing effort to tarnish the Michigan football program.
Heck, when I was in high school playing football we had practice/films on Sunday for up to 4-5 hrs (same with Saturday, sometimes longer actually). And that's in high school! How is it so odd that a top division I program would have activities for that long on a Sunday?
The intent of this whole thing, if it is in fact to smear RR and run him out of town or whatever, is truly, truly pathetic. It is equally pathetic if they're just trying to make money, because that's the most important thing in life, right? (last half of last sentence was sarcasm in case you couldn't tell)
You do not become the best conditioned team in the country without outworking everybody else, so yes, I can believe these guys are putting in extra hours. The question becomes is it mandatory?
I am sure RR and other coaches cover their ass by making sure the proper forms are filled out proving the workouts are optional. I am also sure the players know the workouts are mandatory.
I think this will be less of an issue when RR has all his own recruits in here. Some of these players did not sign up for the Barwis conditioning program and are suffering from culture shock. RR has said more than once that this is not for everyone and we are finding that statement to be true.
More problems,more distractions for a team trying to find its way.
This kind of stuff sometimes just snowballs.RR must be wondering by now if it was worth coming to Mich.
The hounds have been nipping at his heels since day one.
If these allegations are true, then I must admit that I am not surprised. There has always been something shady about Rich Rod in my mind, and it would not surprise me if he and has staff tried to find ways to break or bend rules. He just does not strike me as the most genuine person when he addresses the media, and it would explain the unusually high attrition rates. Having played college football myself, I cannot imagine putting in the time that the author and players allege that Rich Rod's staff requires.
attrition rates? what the fuck are you talking about? there's nothing unusual about the amount of players that have left. in most cases more players leave
Out of curiosity, at what level did you play college football?
I'm not questioning your credentials, fyi, I'm just curious.
I must admit that I went to an elite liberal arts school and graduated with an economics degree. I know my collegiate experience was different than anyone's who would have played at Michigan, but I cannot imagine being able to have enough time to be a student if I had this kind of schedule. Our Sunday practices were incredibly hard (like those mentioned in the article), but, outside of that, nothing like that. After experiencing an NFL training camp, I can tell you that this schedule (if Rosenberg's sources are true) would be much more than the pros put in.
at a number of D-III schools and the one thing that struck me as out of the ordinary was what you've implied as somewhat normal for you . . the tough Sundays. Traditionally that's been meetings, a short on the field session (which ends up being mainly some conditioning) and a lift in my experience. A 9-hour session seems completely out of the norm at any level, and, I would think, counterproductive after a certain point.
Being that you went to grad school @ UM I’d be hard pressed not to think your focus as an undergrad was on your degree more so than your on the field performance as an athlete, which is commendable, but even though I cannot comment on the amount of time served or un-served for practice as I was not a student athlete in college…these student athletes are at an “elite” academic AND football institution, and be in right, wrong, or indifferent decided to come to Michigan to major in Football 1st and foremost.
The full article appears to have some numbers in it.
You played and can't imagine putting in that kind of time? I'm not trying to personally attack you or anything, but I disagree. In the spring we had 6 am workouts 5 days a week with an evening workout on Sunday. The workouts lasted about 2 hours. We would have player led 7 on 7's or one on one's a couple times a week in the afternoon. People generally didn't stay on campus in the summer, but we had a workout plan. If you didn't follow it completely, you were going to be in for a rough camp. During the season, we had two hour practices in the afternoon, 6am film on Monday morning, position group lunch meetings two days a week, and an evening team meeting on Thursday. And that was D-3!!! I can absolutely see that amount of time being spent for a BCS level school. This whole article smells of sour grapes.
This isn't only true of football, but every sport. In this day and age when there is no off-season, this rule gets broken every week by every student-athlete in the NCAA. I signed monthly sheets stating we only practiced 20 hours per week fully knowing that was not the case. Every sport has S&C to go along with normal practices and many sports have film sessions. You honestly could go to any program at any school across the country and write this same article. It is just a lot more sexy since it is Michigan. Rosenberg and Snyder have not exactly come upon some groundbreaking case here. The only thing they figured out was which players would talk.
My thought is that virtually every team openly flaunts this rule and that any "sanctions" coming from this will be negligible. I'm more worried that kids on the team were willing to go to the press with this than the fact that it's being reported. The LA Times would run to the presses if six USC players came to them with this, too.
Who are these players? They can't all be Boren and Wermers.
You're niave if you think this doesn't happen just about everywhere. Yeah, Spartan fans will bash us and people who don't know anything about UM football will think RR is destroying our program. But, like a couple other people have said, the NCAA won't do anything. Paying players is much worse than practicing more than you're supposed to.
It's like the speed limit. You're only supposed to go the posted speed limit, but no one actually follows that.
Call me a pessimist, but the NCAA has been so slow to jump on the teams who have obviously been doing pay-for-play, and yet I feel like this is the sort of thing they would be all over.
Yeah. Definitely a pessimist.
I assume your referring to reggie bush and similar happenings at usc. A big part of the bush dealings is that he settled with those who made the accusations, the ones who had the information the NCAA would need to take action against the university.
The NCAA does not have subpoena power, they can't make just anyone talk to them. But with what the writer has already nailed down in his article, the interviews could very well lead to an investigation.
I'm also interested in knowing how Rosenberg got all the details about all of this. I find it farfetched as it is that players would immediately run to him to report about this stuff...but how does he have all the information about what workouts took place, when they took place and who was present during them? RR has removed him from practices and scrimmages in the past...I find it hard to believe he'd somehow get access to "voluntary" workouts during the summer...where's the info coming from?
This just begs the question again....what kind of country club was LC running around here....i mean what pussys these guys sound like....and for the Freep to release this exactly one week before the first game reeks of an agenda....especially putting in quotes from Jeron Stokes and Brandon Hawthorne whos quotes werent even in context to what this dousche writer was trying to prove. I'm glad that some of these girls are gone now...the next move needs to be B.Minor or some senior stepping up in front of the room and saying "whoever the pussies are or if its too hard for you, get the fuck out"
The article clearly states that Hawthorne was not complaining about the times. I don't know what you mean by saying they weren't in context, especially when the writers added extra to explain the context.
if you are stokes or hawthorne though...these are kids who were answering a different question and now are being used in part of allegations against their team...pretty shitty to use a 18-19 year old kid
Maybe. Or maybe they are just two of the several people that were interviewed; two that did not request anonymity. Maybe they were being asked the same exact questions, just they were not two of the five that gave similar accounts about being worked too much.
I would whole-heartedly agree with you that they were being used if the article used their quotes as a way to show how RR was taking advantage of the players and forcing them to do something they didn't want. However, the article says, in opposition to its main argument (that players were being forced to do what they didn't want), that Hawthorne was not complaining.
Sorry for the long run-on sentence, but I think you'll get my point.
Rosenberg is trying to make a name for himself. He wants to be Mitch Albom on ESPN. First the Bo/Woody book, and now he wants to be the guy that is responsible for ousting RR and shaping the future of Michigan Football.
IMO, Bill Martin needs to step up and make a public statement about this report, and do it with details and facts to back up the universities position.
This guy isn't exactly Jayson Blair, but he is heading down a dangerous road by not giving the entire situation a fair shake.
It doesn't matter if ESPN has four thousand pages on evil Urban Meyer whipping his boys in practice everyday, this being reported will somehow make Rodriguez seem evil to the national audience. And that's kind of messed up.
Moreover, even if this is/was going on at most other programs in the country, other coaches, if they're smart, will close ranks quickly so that their players don't disclose anything to the media.
Which means that U-M will look bad, even if everyone else is doing it, because we're the first ones reported.
The most frustrating this about this is that ESPN will pick it up and run with it without giving it an ounce of thought.
At least Rodriguez will stop getting bored to death with questions about the QBs.
Can't UM just play against WMU already! I was a bit surprised to hop online tonight and read this article from Rosenburg. I can't help but think and echo all of the previous comments about how this is probably quite common in ANY program. It's not like Rosenburg really has anything concrete - I'm looking forward to seeing RR address this to the media. Also wondering if we will here anything from Bill Martin to the media. The timing of this thing is what gets me. Seriously? A week before the first game - the week when the players need to be totally focused on preparing to take the field.
I don't shoot the messenger but the timing on this feels like more than a coincidence.
As far as the allegations, mandatory vs. optional is about the grayest of the gray areas. And if we get sanctioned it would be just another example of NCAA hypocrisy. Unfortunately, it would join a long list.
This could be something our guys rally around. Kind of a badge of honor for those who did the work without complaining.
If they talk about interviewing current and FORMER players, then I want to know when these interviews took place and why did the Freep wait until 1 week before the season opener to report it?
This is nothing more than a smear campaign on RR.
If they were waiting until the worst possible time to release this, why not do it next Friday night? Come on.
What makes more sense? Release it the week before when a game has yet to be played or release it during the time when major upsets are happening and everyone cares more about the games than the extraneous BS?
The night before the game will just overshadow the entire game. It will make the SportsCenter recap the next night, etc. The week before the game means RichRod says no comment 6 times and the AD says "We'll investigate" and it goes away before the games are even played.
Could be, but I think that presumes the media wasn't already on the blood trail of the program. In our case, that is unfortunately not true. This will far overshadow the open of the season for Michigan in the media.
If released the night before, it's possible most Michigan fans would be (a) asleep at this point, (b) drunk at this point, or (c) wouldn't care enough what with the impending game the next day. It would for sure put a damper on the next day. But the first Forcier touchdown would erase a lot of that.
If this actually is true, and guys are divided in the locker room, releasing it now would be more damaging / distracting.
Sunday is the biggest day of the week for selling papers. This is probably going to be an above-the-fold, front page story that runs in the Freep tomorrow, which is a Sunday. More people will see this story tomorrow than any other day of the coming week because it is their bread and butter day for coverage. This story was deliberately released tonight. This story is intended to distract both the team and the fanbase. This story is propaganda at it's finest, and it is disgusting that this is what passes as journalism in American in the 21st century.
Claiming major violations by perhaps the cleanest program in NCAA history is much more interesting then writing story after story speculating about who will start at QB when a) Rodriguez isn't saying anything and b) pretty much everyone who cares enough to pay attention assumes its Forcier.
There is one thing that could make this go away though. The Freep could write about how Dantonio is allowing a player return to the team after he assaulted a hockey player (who incidentally is still pissed off), after being released from prison, just in time for football practice. After all, any newspaper would jump at the chance to report on such a low standard of integrity from a 'major' football program...oh wait...
RR has to answer stupid fucking questions about these "Violations" instead of talking about things that matter - like winning football games at Michigan.
This will be all over ESPN by Monday - at the latest. If this would have been reported the night before the game, the players would have been tucked neatly into their beds, dreaming about putting an ASS whooping on WMU. Now they have to deal with this shit.
Maybe the Freep's real agenda is to sell newspapers and get page views?
Just maybe that could be the reason that this was released a week before the season started.
Logically, I think that is more likely, as opposed to this conspiracy that all newspaper writers are out to destroy Michigan Stadium and piss on the ashes.
Honestly, I think papers really like to release these kind of in-depth investigations on a Sunday. After all, Sunday papers cost more, and so they want to make people as likely to pick one up as possible.
Oh snap! RR just got BOOM. ROSENBERGED.
How will the NCAA punish Barwis? Cage fight with a live wolverine? That one didn't work out too well for the wolverine last time. Major NCAA violations will just increase his street cred. If we lose 5 scholarships, we can just cut 5 guys like Alabama, starting with the snitches.
The whole story had a undertone of anger and resentment towards the program, and seemed to take facts and bend them to fit into the story. For something that claims to be an expose highlighting huge ills in the program, they sure needed to stretch a lot of facts to make this a story. One particular section that highlights this is shown in some snippets that I've pasted below.
"For the season, the Wolverines were outscored, 166-157, in the first half — and 181-86 in the second half, when conditioning is crucial."
Is this a sign that we were poorly conditioned in the second half, or that teams made easy adjustments to our simple, partially installed offense and game plans. Which one fits the story best and makes us look the worst?
"Michigan finished with a 3-9 record. The low point came in October, when the Wolverines lost at home to Toledo."
Why not just mention app state, and 5 straight to ohio state as well. Both seem pretty applicable to the overall tenor of this story.
DAMN YOU, ZION BABB!!
Is to take a bunch of BS, cite anonymous sources, and generally be a b*tch. This is clearly a silly article, no program goes down for too much practicing. They go down for paying players, cheating scandals, and other shit. But not too much practice.
We talkin bout practice?
They could have released the article in the days after the interviews.
When were they conducted? how long did this story sit in a vault?
I get that they have to sell newspapers and that a piece like this helps. But its a college football team. If the only objective is to sell newspapers, then the freep is just a tabloid. If the objective is to make a difference, they should have released the story BEFORE camp. If the object was to hijack the season / get RR back, then screw them.
I do think this blows over, but I'm done with Rosenberg. He's a watered down Bill Simmons want to be (who I don't even like) who (imo) is acting like a scorned teenage girl.
While I take this with a grain of salt, I don't know how anybody could say they find this truly surprising, hard to believe, etc. etc. If there is any element of truth to it, which I tend to think there is, I don't see how you can think it is OK. "Everybody else does it!" or "The NCAA doesn't -really- care!" doesn't make it right. Rules are rules, and these are rules the NCAA puts in place to protect student-athletes from exploitation, ensure their well-being, and have college sports still come with the possibility of someone being able to complete their education.
If my team is going to win games, and if this is a team that is going to represent my University and its longstanding tradition of doing things the right way, I'd hope they'd make an effort to do so. I'd rather we go 0-12 doing things the right way than cut corners and break rules to win BCS championships. Ohio State does that. USC does that. We tried to do that in our basketball program. But that's not the way Michigan football does things.
We built our tradition on integrity, coming clean, being honest, and being above board. And if that's an element of our identity Rich Rodriguez and his staff wanted to put by the wayside as they're "building a program," well, I think we should all have a major problem with that.
Like it or not, this is a story we don't want to see. And if there is indeed a story here, I don't see how the Free Press has any obligation not to report it. That is the mark of responsible journalism. I'd rather it get nipped in the bud before it goes on for years unchecked, and then have it come out later, when we really do get in trouble with the NCAA, that it was known but not reported on.
Depends on what we're comparing here. Are we paying players? Or are we working over time while the athletes are still succeeding in class? It's a little different.
And this might be semantics here, but it's our University. I don't think any of us want to break with our tradition of doing things the right way, but I don't think many of us believe this is also anywhere similar to what Calipari just did.
Agreed. Although this isn't the worst thing a football team could do, it will get blown out of proportion and people will bash RR. There isn't an excuse. He shouldn't have done it (if he infact did). I love Lloyd, but I doubt that he did everything right 100% of the time. RCMB is already well into their bashing. I actually think this might not be a bad time for it to happen. Hopefully a win next Saturday will make people forget about this.
There's enough lithium in my medicine cabinet to power three electric cars across a sizeable desert. I'm more than aware that this isn't actually a selling point, but nonetheless it's my favourite statistic about me. Man, 33 - officially Three Cars Crazy
i just hope this is false ... i like talking about how we act as a superior team that doesnt cheat ala U$C
What we allegedly did is nothing compared to USC.
The fact that you typed out "U$C" says it all. It's not the same ballpark, it's not the same sport. It's not apples and oranges, it'd be more like apples and lava lamps.
People don't seem to get it. When great men are targeted, you begin with shredding of documents, move to family values and then to violations and excessive workouts. I am not granting RR "great man" status, but he is a target, a man who blew up MIchigan tradition, a disciplinarian, a workout fanatic, and a man with enemies all over the place. He continues to break a lot of eggs.
I do not give this report 1/1000000th of second of time or the same fraction of credibility. You who are reacting to this with doom, wrung your hands about shredded documents and family values. Enemies do not give up. You can go into every high-achieving, intense organization and find malcontents. There are undoubtedly one or two left.
Please, people. Give the man the benefit of the doubt.
And if real evidence of real wrongdoing comes out, then I will admit it and suggest appropriate action. Anonymous sources is not real evidence.
The damage will already be done tomorrow even if this isn't true. And I don't think you can say this is absolutely false. I'm pretty sure that no one here is too surprised with this.
I can say it is false because the burden of evidence isn't on me. You think a player buried deep on the bench - a former stud HS player who has been lauded since he first strapped on a helmet in 5th grade and achieved everything with ease - isn't above saying that the rules were stretched to compensate for his first taste of failure? That it was sanctioned as opposed to practices outside of the coach's control?
I grant none of it. If people come forward and real evidence is presented, then I will.
I used to work as a tutor in the academic center. One time I had a player tell me something to the effect of "I'm done working on this assignment (he was only about 2/3 done, and it was due the next day), I need to go sleep because we spent 8 hours doing stuff yesterday, and I've got to get up at 6am tomorrow for conditioning". That was the Monday after a game, can't remember if it was a road game or not. He wasn't necessarily complaining (though players did bitch about the conditioning occasionally), but just sort of stating the kind of compromise he was forced to make to get by.
He wasn't lazy, he was in a difficult program, came in consistently to work on assignments and get help. I don't think he was that highly touted coming out of high school, and isn't buried on the depth-chart since I guess he's projected to start this year. Quite honestly, I'm a little pissed that somebody I worked hard to help pass two or three of the more difficult classes at Michigan was being hindered by what was apparently a gross disregard of the NCAA rules. There's significant substance to the allegations being made, and if the NCAA acts quickly and can verify some of these claims, I honestly think RR might (and should) be gone before the season is over.
On the one hand, I see your point and it's really valid.
On the other hand, I've taught classes at a D-I university, and I have to say that the NCAA touts itself as being pro-student-athlete when it's convenient for them, not necessarily for the students.
For example, at the university where I taught (and I assume at most other D-I schools), as long as athletes have a letter from the AD, they're excused from as much class as they need to miss in order to fulfill their athletic duties. Imagine, for example, how much class a basketball player misses during the postseason - not exactly conducive to learning.
Now, I'm not saying it can't be managed, as there are people who have academic success in spite of the time needed to devote to D-I sports - but those tend to be the brightest of the bunch. For those who are average students (or worse), the time required may be crippling as far as academic success.
My one big issue is that I don't think athletics should ever be so much of a time requirement that it precludes somebody from being able to get a legitimate education. And not just the brilliant people, but the average people who want to take advantage of the academic opportunities their athleticism has opened up to them. People always make anecdotes about how back in college they held 5 jobs, took 27 credits, and were still banging supermodels every nigh. But those people are the minority, and often times doing it out of necessity, and it's ridiculous to assume that every D1 football player should be able to do that on a consistent basis (especially given most player's academic background relative to their peers).
Some things like playoffs and road trips are to an extent unavoidable. Going significantly over the NCAA mandated maximum time per week is not.
*see '08 GPA avg
Like I said, it could be the case that more players than average chose to take easy classes with guaranteed A's as opposed to taking more difficult/interesting classes to help balance their workload. I don't know if this is necessarily the case, I'm just saying the record GPA isn't a bulletproof argument against the existence of NCAA violations that are negatively affecting some (even if just a minority) of the players.
Two years ago the entire team took only physics, math and engineering classes.
To go way, way beyond the scope of this article and the subsequent discussion, I am not sure that the two missions (individual academic success and team athletic success) have ever been, are currently, or will ever be fully compatible. Not just at U-M, but throughout the NCAA. When you mix in the huge amounts of money involved, the stakes are even higher, and I tend to think that not only at the university level but the organizational level, academics are that which is allowed to suffer.
However, we married amateur football and academics a long time ago, and I'm not sure there is any way to untangle the two at this point (disregarding whether we'd ever want to).
There really isn't a way to nicely disentangle them. I accept that academics are going to suffer compared to team success, but there has to be a limit. You can't let academics suffer to the point where your average player doesn't have time to do more than the bare minimum academically. That's the purpose behind the NCAA maximum limits, and that's why I hope they come down especially hard with the ban-hammer if Michigan is found to be blatantly flouting the rules.
And at the end of 4 years we had to take Senior Design. Do you know how often I had to go to group meetings? Do you have any idea how much time I spent on that one class (luckily I only had 12 credits).
How does this relate to the current "fiasco" well the meetings weren't "mandatory" because well we had to finish the project but if I didn't attend most/all of the meetings then my teammates would turn in their evaluations and grade me lower saying that I didn't participate as much as the other people in the group and was a slacker.
How is this ANY different for football players? They knew that the workouts were "voluntary" just as I knew my meetings were. They knew that if they didn't bust their ass they wouldn't play.
I am doubting what you said was true, but the team had its highest GPA in like 40 years. If the had to work so much and could not do schoolwork, then that would of never of happened.
The record-level GPA could be explained by RR bringing in "his kind of player" that takes nothing but cupcake classes so they can spend an excessive amount of time on football.
Because Rich Rodriguez is why football players take easier classes, right? I suppose he is the reason that so many of Carr's recruits smoked weed and so many college players get arrested for things like assault and theft, too
If Rich Rodriguez is making players work significantly more than the NCAA maximum during the season, then yes, he could very well be contributing to students taking easier classes in an attempt to keep their heads above water.
That would be tough to pull off, given that Big Ten rules require athletes to make "significant yearly progress" towards their degree requirements to keep their eligibility.
Not especially. You switch from taking Calc I to Sports in Ancient Rome. Still making progress towards a degree, but one is significantly easier than the other.
But I would wager that 99.999999% of Carr's players DID NOT take calc nor were EVER in a degree that required calculus.
That explains that RR is recruiting players with offers from Standford and such? Patrick Omameh is an engineering student and Lalota is in business. Yes some take easy class but come on, be reasonable.
Engineering and Business are their own colleges separate from LSA. So it's not like they can say "oh shit, I'm in over my head with all this extra practice time" and switch to underwater basket weaving right away. You have to wait at least a year and go through some administrative stuff. Even if they aren't struggling enough to justify transferring colleges (and I don't think they are, B-school has pretty high standards for admission and AFAIK Omameh was doing fine in engineering), it's not unreasonable to say the thought of switching to something easier might have crossed their mind if they had started out in LSA.
See my response just above.
(BTW, most football players under Carr were not enrolled in LSA, but Kinesiology.)
I think Kinesiology changed their standards recently so you have to reapply after sophomore year to get a major, since there was such a disparity between the athletes and the other students and they wanted to strengten their academic reputation, so I believe some of those players that started in Kinesiology might have eventually been funneled back into LSA. I'm not sure what the rules are about cross-enrolling with LSA from Kinesiology, but students might have been doing that to prepare for their inevitable transfer back to LSA, and only started in Kinesiology because of lower admissions standards and reserved spots for athletes.
But even with that, I think Kinesiology is actually is the best option for athletes. It seems like it should be the path with the most chance of success for students that have devoted their life to athletics and very well might pursue a career related to athletics.
The record-level GPA could be explained by RR bringing in "his kind of player" that takes nothing but cupcake classes so they can spend an excessive amount of time on football.
No it couldn't. The vast majority of the 2008 team (which achieved that record GPA) was recruited by Lloyd Carr.
Even if the players were recruited under Lloyd, the freshmen had to choose to stay under Rich Rod, and Lloyd never really got a chance to instill them with any ideals about the importance of academics and challenging yourself and things like that. The freshmen (which includes RR's recruits) are probably the ones that have the biggest impact on GPA, since intro level classes are generally graded hard and upper level classes are graded easily, and they're also the ones that are still adjusting to college. Additionally, everybody was heavily encouraged to "buy into the system". If "buying into the system" involves excessive amounts of practice time, there's the implication you have to take easier classes to balance things out.
This is horseshit. You are simply witnessing the standard at major D1 athletic programs - a suffocating football obligation that impacts academics - and somehow painting RR as having diabolically kicked it up a notch. Bullshit. He requires what all D1 coaches require.
What cupcake classes are there? I know psych 111 is easier than chem 461, but there aren't exactly a lot of blow off classes.
While relating to “recruiting” violations (as reported back in May) as opposed to our “practice” violations, significant substance would be coming out and saying "I don't view it as a bad thing. If we suddenly had zero violations, I would have to ask myself what the coaches were hiding," said Doug Archie, OSU's associate athletics director for compliance and camps.
Just remember how big of a deal the whole AAN series with Carty was at the time. Ultimately nothing but bad press came out of it. If anyone is well adjusted to bad press and dealing with inaccuracies in the press, it is RR and his team. I hope this will all pass as not that big of thing. No other schools will want to get involved with finger pointing as they will be next on the hit parade. I can imagine a lot of copy cat investigations upcoming.
I am not convinced about the timing complaint. Think about the timeline. First, the journalists have to get some idea that things might be amiss. Summer workouts have to actually happen - the violations had to have time to occur. At this point are already nearing the mid to latter part of the summer. Then they have to get interviews from players. As a researcher, I know that interviews take weeks to set up and execute. I would say that there is a good chance Freep could not have reported the violations any sooner. They had to first get the idea that violations were occurring, then get the interviews. That process takes time - often months.
Second - when would you all have liked the article to be released - next week right before the game? Before the ND game? Would it have been better if they would have put out the article last week? Why? What if they were still waiting on that last interview or two to help build their case?
Journalists often serve as a check on a system. Recruiting violations are found at some schools, other violations are found at others. It is silly, even somewhat immature, to sit here and think that we got some kind of raw deal, to blame it on the media. The world is not out to get UM football. We have been hearing about violations all summer at Alabama, USC, FSU, etc. This shit happens. UM is a high profile school, it is not surprising that some violations are found here (hell, it would not be surprising if more were found); especially if so many schools commit them.
Good points, but while "the world" is not out to get UM football, RR is despised by many in the Michigan establishment. He doesn't fit, isn't accepted and they have reveled in his failures and the defections of players who couldn't cut it.
What makes you say that? Who is this "Michigan establishment"? I am honestly curious as to whether there are reports or information, or even rumors, coming from inside the program regarding folks who are not supporting RR. Not to sound naive, I am sure he has his detractors - but to the point of them wanting the program to take a fall?
I can't wait for this weeks TMQB!
And I am getting a weird vibe. Some of the quotes from the players struck me as -
"I've never had to do this before and am not sure what to think about it because I am a stud and nobody has ever told me what to do."
I'm sure there was extra work done beyond the NCAA rules. I would feel fairly certain in saying that there were no actual violations committed. By that I mean that there were no coaches present that were not supposed to be there. I assume there will be an investigation which will bring negative light to the team. I just have a feeling that no violations will be found....IMHE
The current players who talked to the team remained anonymous becuase they were afraid of retaliation, but what about the former players? Rodriguez can't retaliate against them, so why did they remain anonymous eh?
This is so stupid. I don't get why the FP (and almost everyone else) is hating on Michigan. They're basically saying "RR + Michigan are bad, look at St. Dantonio and MSU. They're the clean program like UM used to be. Now they have that scummy RR."
Back in the day the papers were pro Lloyd and anti Saban/Williams/Smith. They're not anti Michigan, they're anti-RR.
Devin vs Ricardo: A live blog we cant lose
Yeah, until the Freep published a violation story right in the middle of it.
When are people gonna make that connection to the curse of the Live Blog. Or, are we not able to joke about this?
The curse strikes again!
No actual specific evidence is provided that makes it clear the extra time spent was mandatory. I wish all of the wimps would just leave the program once and for all. I find it quite interesting that RR is trying to build one of the most significant walk-on programs in the country. Who in their right mind would be a walk-on at UM if RR required them to break NCAA rules on time commitment?
Any mention of mandatory/punishment/required comes from an unnamed source.
thats normally how it works, it's not a disqualification of the article though.
so why are you posting links to the original story when a poster comments the original story lacked any validated/named evidence of the workouts being mandatory, as if re-reading it suddenly invokes some revelation?
honestly I know you are trying hang out here and you may have a thing for Michigan or whatever but I'm really kind of annoyed that you are taking this the next level in trying to assert there is validity to the suggestion that these workouts were mandatory; as I have read it, these accusations were made by unnamed sources, and were pushed forward by a individual who a easily discernible vendetta against Michigan.
there were two separate links to two separate stories buddy, the second with actual the actual "facts"
I think you should read the article at the link I and others posted, it is a much more expanded version of the original posters.
I think your making too many snap judgments about me off of the posts in one thread.
Awesome. Thanks for providing this link. Gee, I wish I had seen it earlier. THERE IS NO ACTUAL EVIDENCE IN THIS ARTICLE THAT ANY OF THE EXTRA TIME WAS MANDATORY.
Did you read the whole thing? the 10 hours of meetings and workouts on Sundays stands out to me, it was team wide, only 4 hours is allowed by NCAA rules for required activities.
where does it say those sessions were mandatory beyond the 4 hours, and how is this verified?
"Rodriguez required his players to arrive at Schembechler Hall by noon the day after games. They would then go through a full weight-lifting session, followed by individual position meetings and a full-team meeting. Then, at night, they would hold a full practice. Often, they would not leave the practice facility until after 10 p.m.
In September 2008, three weeks into Rodriguez’s first season, senior defensive tackle Terrance Taylor talked about his previous Sunday. “It was, like, 10 hours,” Taylor said. “Everybody was like, ‘Where were you at?’ ‘I was at practice all day.’ My parents were still here. They were like, ‘Where were you at?’ I was like, ‘I was at the building all day.’ ”
In the "Sundays were Miserable" section of the article
Again, I don't think you comprehend what I said.
Rosenberg asserts that these were mandatory. Rosenberg asserts quite a bit of ridiculous shit. Nothing in that quote you pasted asserts it was mandatory. That bullet list includes claims made by an unnammed source. AN UNNAMED SOURCE. IN THE QUOTES YOU SEE MADE BY PLAYERS, IS THERE ANY REFERENCE TO THE TIME PUT IN BEING MANDATORY?
Because the players were there all day does _NOT_ imply they were mandatory. Why do you keep suggesting this is the case???
When the writer says "Rodriguez required" it makes me think it was mandatory. He doesn't say Rodriguez required after every event that went on on sundays but I think it can be expanded across the rest of that paragraph. Adding the quotes from the player would lead me to believe that is a correct assumption to make.
That is quite the assumption to make. For a team meeting on sunday after the game he requiered you to be there at Noon....
What honestly is so wrong with that, I'm pretty sure most meetings have a start time and if someone stays after said meeting I dont see that as mandatory!
No I don't think there is anything wrong with a required meeting that starts at noon on Sunday, assuming that meeting doesn't conflict with NCAA regulations.
Yeah I agree if someone or a group of someone's say hey want to get a workout in before heading out to do whatever, there again is no problem. But with the quotes from the players and the other items in the article it doesn't seem to have happened that way.
Your belief that Michael Rosenberg (if you are unaware of this individual's history with Michigan, just do some Googl'ing) would write anything truly subjective about Michigan, especially when utilizing unnamed sources and then extrapolating unverified claims (your assumption that the 10 hour Sunday session is indeed verifiable in your estimation, on the foundation of an unnamed source asserting that they were in fact, mandatory) shows exactly where your 'beliefs' on the issue lie.
No I am not a subscriber to Rosenberg, I came to the understanding he isn't well liked after reading the first few posts in this thread. There is too much in this article for me to just say oh its someone just looking for website hits. Its not as though he just said "OMG! I just saw a coach at a voluntary practice I better write about it."
He says he went and interviewed "Past or current players and parents", I have no reason to believe he would make up that key point of the entire article just to write a 1000 word essay on things he wanted to further makeup about violations to the NCAA's practice policy.
You want 'reason to believe'? Come on man, do your homework. Quit being so lazy. Indulge me with some research and read some of his past articles written of Michigan within the last year. Make him earn the benefit of your doubt by at least reading his previous work.
Actually I take that back. You should/will have reason to believe he trumped up this claim if you actually take some time and look what his history is.
If I ran and hid from sports writers who run regular negative articles on ND I wouldn't have a lot to read. Even if I had the same opinion of this writer as you do, I would still be concerned on the core of the article.
His history with Michigan? You mean writing on the Daily? Or writing a book that makes Bo look like a Saint compared to crazy old Woody?
I wish people would read between the lines and see what's going on. Nobody is anti-Michigan, this is about RichRod.
Why would a ND fan post obsessively on a UM Football blog?
Weird. Personally, Id never get caught dead posting on a ND blog, but thats just me.
Enjoy your time here ND. You may want to try and hide your bias a bit more though.
You should read more that one post before coming to a judgement of me, a good example would be my first post in the thread where I originally stated that I was pretty skeptical of the article posted by the original poster. I did edit it after reading the expanded version also linked to in that post.
I am truly baffled as to why you are placing your belief in that of an unverifiable source when every single other quote in the article coming from a player makes not a single mention that the extended sessions were mandatory. Not one. Why?
"One former player who started for Michigan last season told ESPN Saturday night that the report was accurate.
The player, who asked not to be identified for fear of repercussions from fans, said in-season Sundays at the football facility lasted from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m., including a one-hour lunch. That would be an 11-hour day. The NCAA daily limit is four hours, the weekly limit 20.
The same player said required offseason workouts included three-hour lifts on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays and two hours of speed and agility on Tuesdays and Thursday. That's a total of 13 hours; the NCAA limit is eight hours of required workouts.
This player said he would tell the Big Ten or NCAA what players were required to do and believes most of his former teammates would, as well."
If this player's allegations are true, then it's difficult to believe that Bill Martin or the AD in general didn't know about this. I don't think it's very easy to hide about 100 players spending 12 hours at a University facility during the season.
Of course, the crux of things may depend on whether they were "mandatory." Regardless, when a former player says he's willing to go to the Big Ten or the NCAA to spill the beans, that's going to have legs of its own.
I'm not assuming the story in the Freep is accurate, but if RR and staff were indeed blowing past the time limits as blatantly as the story alleges, it was dumb, dumb, dumb, since it's pretty hard to hide.
Ugh. It's hard to fight the bad feeling that the anti-RR people in the AD have finally got their big stick. It would be ironic as hell if it was RR who handed it to them himself.
I posted this earlier in the thread but I figure it might get noticed here. About the timing of the article detailing the Minnesota basketball scandal. Good read.
Yes, but way too long. Usually, Billy, a better summary helps.
Of interest to us, the article discusses the reporting of violations regarding academic papers on the Wednesday of a women's basketball game. Below is an interesting quote (the discussion regarding when to report can be found toward the end of the article):
"The simple truth is we ran the story when it was ready to run. Should we have taken the advice of Ventura, who declared us "despicable" for publishing the story Wednesday?
We had three other options:
1. Run the story a few weeks earlier before Dohrmann had done the lengthy, meticulous reporting job. Any votes for that one?
2. Simply kill the story outright, as at least two readers I talked to suggested. If you like this option, you'd probably be happier reading a different kind of newspaper than the Pioneer Press.
3. Hold the story until the Gophers lost, thus not hurting their chances to bring honor and glory to the state's most prestigious university with a big-time college basketball victory.
Of the three options, this was the most popular among those readers, like the governor, who questioned our motives. The problem with this solution is that it would be unethical. You may argue that the story may affect the outcome of today's game. But holding the story to help the home team also may affect the outcome of the game. That's unfair to the other team, which would be playing a team that may have ineligible players. We would also hear from another segment of readers who would say we sat on the story because we were homers. And they would be right.
I know my argument won't fly with some Gophers fans who have blinders on. They just want the home team to win no matter what. They may have forgotten the real purpose of a university.
The simple truth is we ran the story when it was ready to run."
That link is all good and well...until you actually read the story. In the case of Minihaha, you had a situation where one of the contacts was out of the country and the other contact could not provide verifiable evidence until about a week before the story ran (which, in and of itself is an odd thing, since, didn't she have those disks all along? Why didn't she present them originally?).
This really has nothing to do with this story. The ten Michigan players that were interviewed involved at least two U of M freshman and very likely at least two transfers. This means that, unless the reporter was lazy, any of the players could have been contacted at any point in the last two years.
So then we are to believe one of two things. Either this was a two year project plan or that this story was formulated and brought together over this summer for a specific release time. The Fourth Estate did itself no good here.
Go Blue Michigan Wolverine blogspot state there would be some negative PR coming out about the program soon, some to worry about and some not? I thought there was something like that, but could be wrong.
news about program BAD or NOT 50/50. not one to wish away life but news cant go away fast enough. just epinion.
Look out, ESPN has picked it up.
mgoblog has a thread up about it already too
Those guys are always blowing things out of proportion.
This article makes me wonder if this is what RR and others were talking about when they kept saying "Guys are buying into the program now" etc etc. As in, the pansies are gone, the guys who are left are the ones who wanna bust ass, work hard, spend a lot of time on drills, 7 on 7s, all that stuff. I honestly am not surprised if they hours they put in are well above and beyond what's "legal." That said, everybody's doing it, and this kinda shit happens in all different parts of this country. In the medical field, they limited work to 80 hours a week max, no more than 30 hours at a time. Well, I know a ton of people who work more than 30 hours straight, and more than 80 hours a week. But will they say anything? No, b/c that would mean the program gets fucked and they get fucked b/c they have no program to attend.
I'm pissed now. This is such bullshit and really makes me mad to have this crap turn up at this time.
yes...sigh...and shake my head...
Is already running with it on the news. What a joke. So sensational.
I see it as bulletin board material.
and the ESPN bottom line has picked it up too... I couldn't imagine a more fanatical, patently fabricated piece of trash.
So you can only spend 20 hours per week on football. Is that mandatory time or can you do even more if it's volunteered time. I wouldn't be surprised if the Freep is misinterpreting the rules.
The response of the athletic department along with the compliance document and many of the posts above put my mind at ease. I went from headsplosion to comfortable that many of the claims are invalid and those that are not fit nicely into the gray area of "voluntary activity."
While I do think it's possible that there's substance to this, I don't think any of us can really be sure that something/nothing will come of it. Most likely, nothing will (MOST LIKELY). This is because RRod and maybe Martin will speak against the allegations (if they even balloon that far) and at some point evidence against this allegation will be brought to light.
To the people who point at the timing of this article: no time is a good time for major violation accusations, no matter what the "violations" are. I do agree that this is a worse than usual time, but until we have more information I think it would be wise to hold back on judging the situation and judging the players (calling them "pussies" and things like that). There is a small chance their words could have been taken out of context, intentionally or not.
The thing that makes me automatically disregard this article is that if you look on the sports page about three articles down there is another article with the headline: "MSU plays by the rules, say ex-players".
How the hell is talking to anyone from MSU relevant to this story. This has nothing to do with MSU or any other school for that matter. The only conclusion I can come to is this is another OMFG DICK ROD IS RUINING MICHIGAN LOOK AT DANTONIO SO MUCH BETTERZZZ story.
Just another way for the Freep to incite Michigan fans and fan the flames of the MSU "INSTATE DOMINANCE!" meme. They are only out for hits, and writing such a story guarantees they get what they want.
After seeing the ticker on ESPN News, it came accross to me that many people will see through this and realize that it is indeed a witch hunt. People who know, will laugh at the allegations. The NCAA will slap them on the wrist if they do anything at all. Our clean history and RR clean history will help. It burns me though that they have to make this such a big frickin deal.
Reporter: "So....The workouts were much tougher this year, huh?"
Unnamed Player: "Oh Yeah. We did a lot of extra work to get ready for this season"
Reporter: "Extra work, you say?"
Unnamed Player: "Sure. The coaches really pushed us hard this summer so we don't have a season like we did last year. It was hard but we got through it. Some guys had a tough time but I knew it was gonna make me a better player."
Reporter: "So....you're saying that you had to work above and beyond what other teams do so you can be better?"
Unnamed Player: "Welllll, I guess. Yeah!"
Insert Steamroll Here
Reporters and Lawyers........Eh, not so different sometimes
Wow, those are some rose-colored glasses. I hope you are right, but my guess is that guys were 'guilted' into working more, and some interpreted it as required. What is interpreted as 'required' or 'highly suggested' might depend on the person.
I was just poking fun but I second your sentiments fully.
I think, however, that in your joke you might have nailed what could be at the heart of this - what was interpreted as too much practice by some players may only be what the coaches thought was necessary to not have another terrible season:
"Unnamed Player: "Sure. The coaches really pushed us hard this summer so we don't have a season like we did last year."
They emphasized that the players were UNIDENTIFIED and that the workouts were VOLUNTARY and that none of them reported these allegations to the COMPLIANCE OFFICE AT MICHIGAN.
Then they had Rodriguez's response, with Rodriguez's picture, wearing a Nike hat.
It was about 30 seconds on SportsCenter. You could tell by the way it was reported that ESPN thought it was crap.
ESPN IS BEING LOGICAL HERE. AHHHH APOCALYPSE
Blind squirrel finding the nut?
Simply the law of averages?
Now I know these allegations are true.
ESPN IS BEING LOGICAL HERE.
SHIT SHIT PANIC SHIT
Thats probably what a lot of most fans will think when they hear this. How players whined, filed union violations. Yet Caughlin stuck to the program and they won a Super Bowl. He's still going strong.
A lot of fans will also make 'LOL Michigan, lots of practice to go 3-9' jokes.
And there will be some crossover among crowds. Neither reaction there bugs me.
The Big Terrance comment and the QC guys at the 7/7s are the only thing that concerns me about the allegations. Everything else is a semantics game that I'm sure the program has covered, much in the way the its done everywhere else (including at UM in the past). As with my two worrries, I'm sure the compliance department has that covered with the proper language as well.
Unless its the same compliance folks that bungled the Chambers academic issue. Shit, now I'm worried.
I have no doubt that most of this is true. And I also believe that the same sort of extra practices, although not to the same extent, happened when Carr, Moeller, and Bo were here.
And I also believe that the same sort of thing happens at all other football programs, although again, perhaps not to the same extent. To spend the better part of the summer (or however long it took to compile the data) putting the report together and then to spend 15 minutes getting a throw away quote off a leading question ("Does Dantonio cheat?) for MSU is ridiculous. The practice schedule for the Spartans is no different than it is for Michigan.
Does the pretty obvious violation of the spirit of the NCAA law bother me? No not really, so long as it doesn't result in sanctions of any sort. In the big scope of things, the fact that we make our players practice more and work harder is a good thing, in my mind.
What I would worry about would be if this demand on players' time prevented them from being good students, or prevented them from taking classes they wanted to take. I remember a number of years back when Robert Smith supposedly quit the OSU football team because he was told by the coaching staff that he couldn't take certain classes because it would take too much time away from football. If that sort of thing was happening, I would be worried.
The thing that worries me the most about this is the same thing that I worried about after the Feagin thing: that there are writers , or, more likely, editors at the Free Press who either have an agenda against RR, or feel that writing articles about how wrong he is for Michigan is the best way to sell papers. If, as some have suggested, there are still some in the administration that don't like RR and would have prefered someone that represented less of a change, these continual negative stories, however true or untrue they might be, will be used to run RR out of town if he is not wildly successful this year or next.
I wouldn't doubt that when Bo coached, the rules were much more relaxed.
Plus, he just told them that life was about to get tougher and if you don't like it....leave. But those who stay, will be champions.
I am predicting that this thread will be set an MGoRecord for most.comments.evaaaar!!!
I will say that there is such a thing as over practicing. I have seen it. You over practice your players during the week and run them down so much that by game day they are only functioning at 80% of the level that they should be at.
I'm sure nothing will come of this but good grief . . . talk about the offseason from hell. At least our long, long wait is almost over.
A coalition of groups is waging a massive propaganda campaign against the coach of the Michigan football program. An all-out attack. Their aim is total victory for themselves and total defeat for him.
There will be no domination by Eastern (or Western) Michigan.
If we win the first two games, Brian should bring back the "Morning in America" banner.
This offseason is like a family vacation we once took. We rented an RV for 7 of us to go from MI to FL. Different traffic jams, the thing breaking down, family fighting, etc. we are one day from home and pulling into Dayton OH to spend the night. My Dad pulls the thing under the overhang of the Holiday Inn and forgets the clearance is 13' for the vehicle while the overhang is 12'. LOLZ now, but Dad was not a happy camper when the air conditioning unit was ripped off. We were one day from home! That is exactly how I feel about this offseason.
Brian come save us PLZ PLZ THE SKY IS FALLING AND THE WORLD IS CRACKING IN HALF.
Honestly, why care. None of us can do anything about this but watch the show, and watch it unfold into nothing just like when this happens to a USC, or a Texas, or an Alabama.
If this was happening to Ball State, everyone would say "lol witch hunt w/e who cares waste of my time lol," but since this is MICHIGAN, heads are already flying amongst college football's uneducated and fickle masses (see the replies in the ESPN article about all of this, I in no way mean that MGoBlog's posters are uneducated or fickle obviously, but the ESPN comments are hilarious).
I have to question this. For the staff to have extra practices that are beyond what is allowed under the NCAA would be shocking. There are a hundred guys that could talk to the press, NCAA or anyone else about the issue. The coaches are professionals, know what the limits and consequences are for breaking them.
When is the athletic department going to ban Rosenberg and Sharp from U of M events. I mean its one thing to report on negative things when they happen, but the constant venom directed toward the school that is spewed from these two "journalists" is absurd.
I think someone needs to do an investigative piece because the freep has gone well over its 8 hour limit on U of M hating per week.
Does anybody out there think that these 6 guys got together and planned this to some extent. It seems to me that these guys (I will not call them pussies because I do not know them) were probably all kind of alike (at least in their work ethic anyway). I definitely can see where these guys were sitting around drinking a brewskie or 2 and said let's burn RR. I'll teach him to not play me. I would say that I agree that all colleges do the extra practice but the problem is that all of the other colleges don't get caught. I remember watching a presser with RR during the summer where he made a comment something like he likes to know that the guys are doing the voluntary work-outs but he reminds them that play-time is voluntary too. I hate that something like this will tarnish the record though.
"Does anybody out there think that these 6 guys got together and planned this to some extent."
No, because at least a few of them probably transferred out already. But I would be extremely surprised if one of the players' names didn't rhyme with "Bustin Loren."
While the article claims that current players were among those interviewed, there's no mention that any starters were among those that talked. The sour grapes factor can't be limited to just those who left the team. If another player puts in more "voluntary" time than you are willing to, isn't it an easy excuse to claim that there's too much pressure on your time? If anything, this is a sign that there's a very strong competitive environment on the team among the players, and perhaps those who aren't winning these competitive battles for playing time are lashing out at the coaching staff as the cause of their failure.
Back in school, I was a full time student and carried a 3.5+ GPA.
I also worked 2 jobs for a total of 50 hours a week. I would work at the bar until 2AM and then go do a radio show, which I got paid for..until 6AM...sleep 2 hours, get up and go to class...all week long.
Im not alone in this as Im sure many of you guys and women did this to... to get through college and get that degree.
The demands of the college athlete are tough, but are no tougher than the common working person who has to take 1 or 2 jobs to pay for it along with the class load.
The best of these kids do not want to be babied, they want to work and challenge themselves.
The University came out and stated that they have been in full compliance with NCAA rules and do not feel the need to self-report. I have to take their word on that, as they have a good track record.
It would be great to have Bill Martin come out with facts to refute Rosenberg and put him in his place too....
However the bottom line is that successful people and programs work hard and put in long hours.
I'm with you. I was a Chemical Engineering student, worked two jobs, and coached a high school ski team. My best terms were when I had 18 credits, the worst was when I only took 9.
"Players have been known to get physically ill on Torture Tuesdays because of the workouts. But they are still expected to complete their two to three hours of speed and agility work later that day."
Yeah, and swimmers on my high school swim team were known to get physically ill during practice and were expected to get right back in the water.* I mean damn. Dudes get sick every damn day at football practice. Why sensationalize if the allegations are as bad as they say?
*This is intended to joke on the notion that it's somehow shocking that players throw up during workouts, not to hype up my own ones. There would be no sports teams anywhere if conditioning stopped as soon as a player got sick.
PMS is a mutha! Oh wait, you said sports. Mahbad
That one of the six WNBA fans is an MGoBlog reader? All apologies, didn't mean to offend.
To answer your question...No, I am not bitching about getting negged. If I get negged for...wait for it....."ragging" on the WNBA, then call me BlueFront95!
I asked one of the freshman that I know about this, and he hadn't even heard the report yet, hadn't heard anyone on the team say that, and definitely didn't think any rules were being broken.
So yea, that's nice to hear.
I doubt the freshmen know what the rules are.
I doubt that they DON'T, since one of the very first things they do when they arrive on campus is sit down with the coaches and the compliance people so they are made aware of what is and isn't allowed.
Yeah, but let's assume for a sec that RR really is the nasty, evil athlete-torturer the Free Press describes. Say he does all this stuff on purpose knowing exactly what the rules are and what he's breaking. Would they really go over that part of the rule book in excruciating detail? I've got no inside knowledge at all here, but I imagine that sit-down deals primarily with the kind of trouble the players can get in when the coaches aren't looking - boosters, cheating, what have you. Not so much the stuff that covers what the coaches can do; I mean, they wouldn't bother going over recruiting rules that cover contact with coaches, would they?
saying they didn't exceed the time limits... It would be hard to not know the rules exist.
At the very least though, at least he hasn't heard anyone on the team complain. That's a good thing no matter how you look at it.