1st degree invasion of opponents' backfields. Y'all MFs need to lighten up.
you can't have one without the other without this one
1st degree invasion of opponents' backfields. Y'all MFs need to lighten up.
I'm sure that would be your response if it was your son's laptop that was stolen. Or yours.
At the end of the day, if he plays another down for Michigan it means we've played a convicted felon. I don't know what the circumstances are, but I do know when Furman faced felony charges he fought them and won.
Had Clark had his day in court, I might have a different view. All I have though is the fact his lawyer seems to thing plea bargaining with a felony is a good idea. Typically that kind of stuff only happens when your lawyer already knows your goose is cooked. Normally you'd expect at the very least in exchange for the guilty pleae you'd get this bumped down to a misdemeanor, but it wasn't based on the information we have. I'm somewhat unhappy Clark played against Air Force when he was mere days away from pleading guilty and I really hope I don't see a felon out there wearing maize and blue against UMass.
I believe Clark should be booted off the team for as long as his probationary period lasts, and that Hoke is sending the wrong message to the team by allowing Clark to remain and play.
If/when Clark's record is expunged, he can come back onto the team. So long as you type 'Frank Clark' into the court's computer system and get 'Convicted Felon' back as the status, he's off the team. Really considering he performed an action on campus that resulted in a felony conviction, he likely should be kicked out of school. I'd assume that's in our code of conduct and if it isn't I have to wonder why not.
It's an interesting question. I'm sure there is precedent for when someone steals a laptop. I imagine it's a fairly common occurance because of the opportunity to do so. And it would make senes to deal with it pretty harshly as a deterrent,
I'll be interested to see what Coach Hoke does, but given that he has already been suspended and reinstated, I doubt there is any further punishment. If not, it does seem light.
I've very skeptical of that. When Furman was offered a plea deal he rejected it on the grounds that he would have plead regarding a felony and been kicked off the team as a result. He flat out said that in an interview. If Clark pleads guilty to a felony and is still on the team, I'm going to wonder exactly what is going on here.
But I thought I heard that it was more that a violent felony that would be an automatic boot. In other words, domestic violence would be a one-way ticket, but tax fraud would be a case-by-case thing. After all, BWC's charge was originally a felony, and while it was obviously hilariously overcharged, I doubt Hoke would have booted him if it had somehow stuck.
Again, could totally be making this up.
I very strongly disagree with this. One of the last things our coaches should be doing is handing out legal advice.
Drew Sharp's "No Fly Zone" again
What are the chances of him playing and if he doesn't I guess I get to break out the Super Mario shirts again. But also who would Mario's backup be?
im seeing some people who are saying he should be booted off the team. you hear those who say playing football is a privledge. my question to you is: so he also be kicked out of school then right? i mean do u want a convicted felon on campus? i only ask and say this because if u believe he shouldnt play football cause its a privledge, i can argue attending college is also a privledge. so why does he get to keep one privledge and not the other?
We defend, what we care about, if this was Alabama, USC, or Texas , we as Michigan fan's would be irate and in dis-belief, that this player
was not dismissed from the affore mentioned teams. However, we all have a biased view from, all that is not MICHIGAN. We should be thankful that we do not have to accept the criticism and the so called praise that come's with these decisions made by Universiites every day.
but as an instructor at the university, i think that any member of the community who steals a computer a student uses for work should be thrown out immediately, at a minimum, and probably fined enough to replace the computer and/or recover the data, too. now, i doubt an ipad is really a work machine, but who knows.
1) You don't know the story so saying he should be chucked out seems harsh.
2) Shouldn't UofM instructors, I don't know, capitalize new sentences?
i didn't say what you think i said. [edit: apparently that wasn't clear enough for the internet. i said that anybody who steals a work computer should be tossed. i don't know if he stole a work computer. since it's apparently an ipad, i seriously doubt it's a work computer. but i don't know. that's why i said i didn't know in the original post. that's also why it's wrong to attribute to me the claim that frank clark should be thrown out. i said that he should be thrown out if he stole somebody's work computer. you can't ignore the condition of a conditional statement, and i don't know what sort of computer he stole.]
and no. it's an internet message board, not a piece of academic writing.
addresses this before criticizing the one game suspension, but IMO he should be kicked off the team. Certain crimes are "one strike and you're out" - it's just a matter of where you want to draw that line. To me, breaking into someone's space and stealing what amounts to a couple grand crosses that line. This isn't a simple mistake or error in judgment - it's a serious felony punishable by up to 15 years in jail.
Discipline is threatening to become an issue on this team. Hoke needs to keep cracking down on this stuff before it gets out of hand.
To every person in the "if Frank Clark plays another down for Michigan, Michigan will have played a 'convicted felon'" camp, please try to understand something.
First, as I and other have said over and over in this thread, Frank plead guilty because he was offered a deal under the Holmes Youthful Trainee Act, which allows him to have the charge expunged if he successfully completes probation.
Requirements for HYTA:
In order for HYTA to apply, you must be between the ages of 17 and 21 when the alleged act occurred
HYTA is not available if you are charged with a life felony, certain offenses dealing with controlled substances or traffic offense.
You must plead guilty in order for the judge to consider the Holmes Youthful Trainee Act. It is always the judges decision whether or not you qualify. After you plead, the judge can still place you on probation or in jail, however once you have completed your sentence, the incident will be removed from your record. Once you plea, your record becomes a nonpublic record while proceedings are deferred and you are on probation. The nonpublic record will be open only to the courts, the Department of Corrections, the Department of Human Services, law enforcement personnel and prosecuting attorneys.
Frank is NOT a convicted felon!
Further, as I've said repeatedly, pleading guilty with an arraganged lighter sentence -- like the HYTA -- as a way to avoid a potential 15 year sentence does NOT mean that he's actually guilty. It means that he and his attorney weighed the risks of going to trial and decided that they don't want to risk it -- even if they think they have a good case, they could still lose.
Furman took his chances, and won. Every case is different.
Personally, I think this was a misunderstanding, but the AA Prosecutor has a hard-on for Michigan football players, and refuses to take the circumstances into consideration.
Expungement is not foolproof. Most applications for grad school, jobs, etc. as if you have been convicted of a felony. Getting something expunged does not mean the answer to that question is "no." If you lie and the other side has the means for looking such things up, you are screwed.
Example - the Character and Fitness Board for getting a law license asks this question after you pass the bar and can and will deny your ability to get a law license if you lie and answer "no" and have had a felony expunged. If you correctly answer "yes" then you have to explain the circumstances in a face-to-face interview and it's decided on a case to case basis whether you are fit to have the license. I'm sure similar mechanisms are in place for if he ever wanted to get a government job, become a cop, etc.
Pleading guilty to a felony has serious consequences beyond the immediate issues he will face. The chance that he is not guilty is very close to 0%.
I keep trying to explain this to people that once you plead, you will have to explain this the rest of your life. And even if the conviction is eventually expunged, Frank Clark is a convicted felon for the rest of his life. Expungment just means that it won't be used against you by the legal system going forward, e.g. if he gets arrested again, the expunged crime won't be used to increase his sentence as a repeat offender. This does nothing to help you in the non-criminal real world.
I like the contrast between your bevy of posts and your sig line.
Onery, mean, determined sons of bitches on the field, worldly gentlemen off. Not always the result, but that is the platonic ideal.
I was really hoping this was a miscommunication, but Clark pled guilty to a pretty serious charge. I don't see how they can possibly keep him on the team now.
I really want to continue thinking that Michigan is morally superior to MSU and OSU. Pleading guilty to a felony is going to have to have a penalty of a lot more than one game.
This is the problem.
People, like, unsurprisingly, Tater, Want Clark to PAY because otherwise he can't act like a morally superior dickhead about other programs. Frank Clark's life does not exist to give you a talking point in this impossibly idiotic dick measuring contest you have with a rival fucking fan, nor should his fate be sacrificed to your petty relativism.
Maybe Clark should be sanctioned harder. Not knowing ant detail of what he did, this forum isn't the body to decide it, and anyone expressing an opinion is operating from a place of extreme ignorance.
Of course, for Tater, that place is called "my brain".
as someone who had an old, cheap laptop stolen when I was in grad school, it's an incredible feeling of violation even without any violence or home invasion. This particular laptop had a chunk of a dissertation draft on it and set me back for a while, not to mention all the personal data that you'd normally have on your laptop, but even putting that to the side, it was more the sense of "who the fuck does the thief think he/she is?" This wasn't stealing bread to feed the family, I'm certain of that. Seriously, I wanted to take a baseball bat to whoever it was. Still kinda do.
You cannot go around taking things that you know don't belong to you. People know that by the time they're about, what, 4 or 5 years old? Six at the latest?
I'm also an attorney. Spare me the business about plea deals. It's not the classification or permanence of the crime on a record that offends me so much. It's simply that some people feel they can help themselves to whatever they can get away with.
Hope the kid gets his life together, and frankly hope it's at a different university.
Clark should be on the scout team and not allowed to play games until the sentencing IMO. At that point we will be able to tell if this was a plea deal and its mot as bad as it seems or if it indeed is a serious offense.
Ppl are entitled to their opinions and can say one game is fine but I think that is a joke. Felony should be more than one game. Hell, frank could never get any job that I've had before now that he is a felon. Let's not pretend its not a big deal.
Michigan should be better than that. Michigan is.
A simple statement by Hoke or Clark's lawyer about what they believe Clark actually did would be of tremendous benefit, but the chances that we'll be getting a statement from either of them is basically zero.
However, prior to the Alabama game, Hoke stated that both Fitz and Clark made bad decisions. I find it hard to believe that Hoke would make this statement about Clark with no elaboration if what Clark did was simply a prank or the result of a "misunderstanding." That statement by Hoke was a big sign to me that Clark did indeed commit the act he's accused of.
how would a statement from the guy retained to represent Clark help anything? I generally agree with most of your comments but this one is...odd. I'd give a hypothetical comment from Frank's lawyer re it being a misunderstanding about 0 credibility. He is paid to either prove his innocence or minimize the damage from conviction so you aren't going to get some unbiased rundown of the facts from him/her.
"Yep, my client is guilty as hell! Stole a laptop and there was no excuse for it! I kept him out of jail though, lol."
It wouldn't, Don, because contrary to your apparent belief, it is not the job of Clark, Clark's attorney, or Brady Hoke, to communicate with you in order for you to pick the appropriate level of outrage.
You can read all about it here.
He's not going to jail, and when his probation period is over, the felony will be expunged from his record.
A Michigan spokesman said in an email that Hoke will address Clark's status with the team during his regularly scheduled meeting with the media Wednesday.
lol @ all the apologists.
Lurkers are welcome, but if your only comments are those designed to poke people with a stick, you may as well simply lurk.
Very few of the people on this thread that want Clark OFF THE TEAM have expressed an opinion that the penalty handed down by the Court - probation, or the School discipline commmittee - none, is too light. They are, however, upset about what Hoke does, who is probably in power to punish him the least (he cannot imprison Clark or expel him, like the other two can).
This would indicate that they're not ACTUALLY concerned that Clark is not being punished enough - they're concerned that he'll blight the perception of their precious program.
Some people view it differently - that getting free college to play football at a prestigious university is a privilege...and there are certain expectations the players must live up to in order to maintain this privilege. If you think like this, and clearly many do, it's just a matter of where you want to draw the line. Not everyone thinks the courtroom is the only place consequences should flow from criminal actions. There's a number of other reasons too:
I could go on and on but the point is that it's not as simple as you make it out to be. You always seem to seize on the low hanging fruit arguments for some reason.
I thought you quit MgoBlog to be a LAWYER from the UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN LAW SCHOOL. ANN ARBOR.
Anyway - I reject virtually all those argument merely because I don't view Frank Clark's life as something to made "an example" of - that does a disservice to Clark. When the school, and the team, grants a scholarship to a player it takes on a portion of the role of developing him not just as an athlete, but as a person. Tossing him off the team, to me, doesn't serve this purpose. That's not to say anything goes - but a non-violent crime from a first-offender certainly seems, to me, to be something we can deal with.
The school owes Clark more than to hold him up as an example for "the kids", future recruits, "the brand", or as a totem of moral superiority to the fans. Frank Clark is a person - not a symbol. People should remember that, I think.
his football scholarship as more of a right than a privilege. My goalposts are in a different place. I don't think my viewpoint or your viewpoint necessarily holds the moral high ground...it's just a difference of opinion.
The only time I see you post is to take a contrarian position on something and berate Tater et al for having irrational fandom preferences.
Now returning to my regularly scheduled lurking and not commenting on stuff.
I "take a contrarian position"? Yes, I post when I see things I disagree with. Like you did. On my post.
You're looking at it more like a college scholarship given out of the financial aid department, and then taken away by some nebulous body who doesn't even know the student. That's not how football works. From recruiting on to graduation it's a family atmosphere. If your kid did this, would you kick him out of the house? Or kick his butt? Not that there aren't things you can do that as a family member you can't protect them from anymore, but where is that point?
And if you want consider how it "helps a football team/program", if you get the reputation as a program that "man, if you screw up once there, they're ditching you...they don't care about you" recruiting becomes tougher, and saying you'll look after Mommy's kid is going to fall on deaf ears, and we'll see how do recruiting then.
There's a line that you can't come back from. I don't know if we've hit that, because we haven't even heard from all the parties involved yet. But I do know we're in an area that's gray, not black and white. It's not laughable like Big Will, and not "how can you even think about keeping him?" like he raped or murdered someone. So I can wait a couple of days to find out. We waited a long time with a dozen threads and thousands of posts for Fitz which was a whole lot of nothing*.
Edit: *the "he should not play vs. Alabama" part, not the crime.
Since no one actually knows what happened, let's all start saying he had a gun while stealing it. Maybe we can add that there were kids there so he was endangering children. This game where we know zero details but get to make up whatever we want about the situation so we can then feel appropriately outraged at something we conjured up is ridiculous. You'd think we would realize after Big Will was first charged with a felony and most of the board went batshit that we don't really know as much as we think we do.
If the coaches deem that his punishment is over, then I am fine with that. They have proven that they can be tough discipinarians, so obviously there is more to this story or else the punishment would be more severe.
Demar Dorsey had his full ride tacked bc of felony charges that were dismissed. I personally think he would have changed out defense as a whole right now but thw university did what it thought was best. This is no different. Frank Clark should be removed from the team as a whole and made an example of.
Coach Hoke know what he wants from his players on the field and as men. It makes me sick to see stuff like this happen but what matter most is how you handle it.
Frank Clark is NOT a convicted felon. Why is that so hard to understand? He will only be a convicted felon if, and only if, he violates the terms of his probation. He is pleading guilty as per an HYTA agreement, which if you bothered to do any research, requires a guilty plea in exchange for probation the offense being expunged from his record upon successful completion of the terms of the probation.
According to Hoke's presser, Clark will not be punished any further.