Isn't that a seriously discounted price? Why should Faculty & Staff get tix cheaper than students?
Football tix e-mail to UM faculty/staff
they don't, the faculty/staff cost is over $100 more than the student price
Thought I saw a post from someone saying theirs was $400+.
Nothing to see here - carry on. :)
Even if the faculty tickets were cheaper, no one should have an issue with that. That's called a work perk. If you want that perk, then try to get a job there (assuming you're not a current student).
at UM on two separate occassions (IT Contract work). I have no problem with Faculty tix being cheaper than the "street" price. However, asking a student shelling out tons of money in tuition, books, and room & board to foot a bigger piece of the pie than a faculty member making six figures. Sorry, that's just me.
Yeah, or we could be like Oregon State and have football tickets for students be FREE!
However, asking a student shelling out tons of money in tuition, books, and room & board to foot a bigger piece of the pie than a faculty member making six figures. Sorry, that's just me.
Just an FYI, an insane majority of UM Faculty/Staff make well below $100k per year. If I had to guess, it would be in the high 90% that make less than 100k. Even if you take out minimum-wage staff and custodial type work, I bet the percent under 100k drops down to only the high 80s.
...what are we going to do about these fatcat adjuncts and lecturers?
Student tix are $295 with no PSD, so this is still significantly more than the student price
Student tickets are much cheaper than this already
That price is not cheaper than students.
Edit: well glad we all got that covered.
More math, less cowbell.
a math problem, but instead a reading comprehension problem. LOL
Could have sworn I saw someone say their Student Tix were over $400 - but guess I need to go back to school and also seek help for my reading disability.
Depends on where the seats are too. My tickets are at about the 10 yard line behind the visiting band row 72 or something. Costs me just over 900 before my non-forced donation of 200 per seat...
Dear lord. Last season I was getting 40-45 ish yard line home side, row 50-60, for about 70-80 bucks a pop on stubhub.
Just needed patience to wait out the price drop, and a bottle of Maker's Mark to sneak in to help stomach the game.
of Maker's Mark to "stomach a game", you need to find a new hobby, team or sport to watch. Don't worry about waiting out stub hub. Stay home and paint or something....
Was literally about to post this, but with more commentary. Guess I snoozed on that opportunity. Needless to say the AD is having some serious trouble with ticket sales this year. It'll be interesting to see if attendence actually suffers significantly come game day.
home & home with a big name team for the alternating years - I guess the closest we have is Arkansas in 2018.
I see that we got Wisconsin in 2016 as well though with the 9-game schedule...so maybe 2014 is the oddity vs the new standard of crappy home schedules.
I teach some of the internal courses on an informal basis here, so it doesn't really count, but even then, all I would personally do is make a histogram of rivet size in the steel in order to get some value from the obstructed view seating. That makes it sort of a strange win-win scenario for anyone who either teaches it or uses it extensively in their work.
That poor guy's seat is so bad that he doesn't even realize there's no game happening.
...but at least he is on an aisle. It'd be worse if it was in the middle of a section.
do you mean to tell me that if you're a dick to most of your fans some of them might not renew their tickets? i thought we had a business genius running the AD.
...and it looks like 2014 is the oddity vs it beginning a trend of crap home schedules in even years.
At least both of these years have Wisconsin added. Plus seeing Hawaii, UCF, and Colorado, and then Arkansas, SMU, and Nebraska, are lightyears better than this year's pathetic schedule.
I cannot believe we have so many years to wait before we play Nebraska again. Ugh.
These are not too bad... Missing rivalries sucks, but these schedules are at least ten times better than this season.
yeah those are all solid home slates, nothing exciting but no app state esque clearly underwhelming games
One of my favorite oxymorons.
Is that PSDs are not subject to Big Ten gate sharing policies where up to 40% of the gate is shared with the visiting Big Ten team.
That is verrrry interesting.... I did not know that.
So if Brandon did away with PSDs as a separate fee and just rolled the costs into the ticket prices, all of a sudden he has to share a bunch of that dough with Maryland or Indiana or whoever.
This is less of a factor now that media deals drive much of the revenue for FB but it still comes out to a $2-4M gain for a school like Purdue and Indiana - that number would balloon up if PSDs were removed entirely.
The other thing is that PSDs are tax-deductible, so rolling them into the regular ticket price would hit fans extra hard.
Is this because they're considered a university "donation"? Even if it's a required "donation"? This has all probably been covered before, but I must've been glossy-eyed when PSD's were last discussed in any great detail.
It's because you don't actually receive anything for the "donation," other than the "privilege" of purchasing tickets. For IRS purposes, the charitable deduction writeoff is 80% of the PSD. This is reflected on the donation receipt.
So what is stopping ticket prices of $0 or $1 and the "real" price being all in the PSD?
I mean if you were worried about the legality of scalping (I think in Michigan legally you can't sell for more that face value) couldn't you just say that they were not for resale?
Crappy Record + Crappy Schedule + Insane Pricing (relative to open market) = Lots and lots of ex-season ticket holders it would seem.
Interesting days ahead for Mr. Brandon
I wanna see the son of a bitch squirm.
Pathetic you're allowed to post with that shot at Brandon.
With the $100 "donation" I'm coming up with $66.64 per ticket (math could be off). And that is a discounted rate for faculty/staff.
In the past, season ticket holders would overpay slightly for most games but could probably sell an OSU or ND ticket for a couple hundred bucks (or would have to pay that much to attend the game if they didn't already have a ticket). It seems the athletic department can't think of sacrificing that revenue, while failing to realize that it wasn't an even trade to begin with.
Tickets to see even a good Michigan team play App. State, Indiana, or Maryland probably weren't worth the $40 or whatever the season ticket holders were paying. They sure as shit aren't worth $70, and now there is no OSU/ND game to make up for it (and no, Arkansas or Colorado is not the same thing).
I've never understood the mentality of selling off the only good games so that you can attend the shit games for free (Not saying you endorse it.) In the past, people would always suggest I sell one of those games to pay for the season. But if you aren't attending those games, why are you buying season tickets?
I did just the opposite a few times and flew in for one big game a year. Thought about getting season tickets and selling the other games but never wanted to deal with it.
I think the athletic department saw the rise of StubHub and Ebay as venues to move tickets and folks were getting big money for those games so someone thought they were missing out on big bucks, when in reality they were basically charging the market rate for the season as a whole (flexible online sales just showed that some tickets were worth a lot and some worth very little).
So instead of selling a $200 OSU/ND ticket for $50 (even in the old days they were premium priced) and a $10-20 App. State ticket for $40, they are trying to get more for the shitty games and not offering an OSU/ND ticket in even years going forward.
I think it's a forced reality caused by the athletic departpment taking the wrong lesson from the stubhub economy (well not wrong in a pure profit driven stance, but wrong from a perspective of doing what's best for your fans). It's pretty clear that the athletic department saw what tickets were going for on stubhub and took the lesson that for big games, they could charge a lot more, and similarly, season tickets were undervalued because those big games were worth so much. But what they failed to notice (or ignored) was the plummeting prices of the lesser games. By increasing prices so that the secondary market couldn't support the lesser game prices it's forced season ticket holders to either stomach a higher and higher cost for good games (higher season ticket prices plus a lower ability to recoup costs by selling lesser game tickets) or ultimately sell tickets to more attractive games. The pull of owning season tickets is obviously still strong, but the economic realities can't be ignored. This has put more and more tickets for good games on the secondary market, and ultimately led to more and more enemy colors in the stadium.
Eventually season ticket holders that buy for only the "good" games are going to be an extreme minority of the season ticket holders.
They can dress it up any way they want - discounted PSDs or whatever - bottom line is it's a hefty price for this schedule. It's going to get dicey if they have to really start discounting somehow to move them all when people have already paid top dollar. These are just baby steps so far that can be rationalized - only for faculty/staff etc. If it hits the general public there will be major grumbling.
I just dont see them discounting or cutting ticket costs to move tickets. Seems as though the AD would rather have empty seats at the stadium instead of lowering prices and actually selling out. Its simple supply and demand, but our AD's ego wont let him admit he was wrong to treat the ticket buying public like his cash machine.
I can't imagine Brandon would be okay with having thousands of unsold tickets. That kind of thing can snowball - once fans see that it's not necessary to buy season tickets to get seats to every game, more could decide not to renew the next year. It's absolutely in the AD's best interests to find a way to get all the tickets sold.
People are making Brandon into some kind of diabolical villain when he's really just continued the ticket policies set in motion by his predecessors. We've progressively raised ticket prices for a generation now. We never hit the breaking point because either the team was strong or the schedule was good. Now we're hitting the perfect storm, coming off a 7-6 season and having our worst schedule in forever, and it looks like the breaking point has finally been hit.
I do think some kind of discounted packages are going to be offered this summer. They're not going to just let 10K tickets go unsold.
Too lazy to look it up, but Brian posted a piece I think in the last year where it was shown that the average ticket price was basically constant with respect to inflation for the entire history of Michigan football until Brandon showed up.
Rising prices as the result of overall economic activity is one thing, gouging consumers because you think extorting their love of UM or the football team will make them pay a higher price is another thing.
The price for a Notre Dame or Ohio ticket in 2003 was FIFTY dollars! It's now 95...
I think their worst scenario is unsold seats and they'll discount before letting that happen. They'll try to disguise with reduced PSDs and other gimmicks if possible but they have to sell those tickets.
App State (2013: 4-8)
Miami Ohio (2013: 0-8, 0-12)
Utah (2013: 5-7, 1-3 vs Top 25)
Minnesota (2013: 8-5, 1-3 vs Top 25)
Penn State (2013: 7-5, 2-1 vs Top 25)
Indiana (2013: 5-7, 0-2 vs Top 25)
Maryland (2013: 7-6, 0-2 vs Top 25)
|2 0 1 4|
|Aug. 30||APPALACHIAN STATE|
|Sept. 6||at Notre Dame|
|Sept. 13||MIAMI (Ohio)|
|Oct. 4||at Rutgers*|
|Oct. 11||PENN STATE*|
|Oct. 25||at Michigan State*|
|Nov. 1||INDIANA* (HC)|
|Nov. 8||at Northwestern*|
|Nov. 29||at Ohio State*|
|Dec. 6||Big Ten Championship Game|
It's a no win situation for Dave...schedule these cupcakes in the nonconf and people bitch about it, schedule powerhouses and people bitch about the opponent being too hard, we have no chance, the sky is falling etc...get a grip folks
I don't think you'd find many people on here that would be against playing powerhouses home and home every year. Even though we got manhandled back in 2012 by Alabama, I liked seeing where we stack up against top teams. I have no problem with an AD who puts us in a position to prove ourselves.
Personally I'd rather take our lumps playing good teams home and home every year than watch us play UMass or UConn every freaking year. Who knows? In a few years those games could become competitive and could help us reach the NCG.
I can't wait to get tickets on stubhub this year for a seriously discounted price.
The AD is making my decision to not renew better everyday.
Ditto. I was already going to miss the App State game due to a wedding in my family (obligations, ugh) and I already had a pair to the PSU game arranged. I figure the other 5 games should be pretty cheap compared to renewing and PSD. Plus now if I decide I'd rather stay home and watch from the couch I can!
Came here specifically to comment on this; things not looking good for season ticket sales.
The problem is that for years UM has priced tickets well above what the market will bear. Maybe one game per year you might be able to sell you ticket for over face value.
Someone said in another thread that the problem is that UM treats it's fans like consumers and not people who more likely than not have a tangible connection to the school. They have treated us like crap for years and are lucky that it has taken this long for people to return the favor.
Dear Sir or Madam,
I am writing to inform you that there is zero chance I buy season tickets this year, no matter how discounted the rate is. As your Head Football Coach Brady Hoke likes to say, "This is Michigan for god's sake." When you can field a team that can win morre than 7 or 8 games a season, then we can talk about season tickets. Until then, I will be enjoying the Michigan Brand of football from my couch.
I love your letter. But given that i wrote not one, not two but three "I am so freaking pissed off right now I am seriously considering cancelling my 25 years of season tickets support" and got zero response I wouldnt hold your breath on getting a reply.
But your letter is better.....WAY better than anything I scribed.
The fourth time's the charm
You've mentioned writing to Brandon before without luck, but have you ever published your letter here?
I published the first one which was basically a rant on the craptastic team we were fielding and questioned the cost of the tickets relative to the results. The second one I did not publish (I still have it though I'm sure) which was a much stronger written letter asking why I should have to pay a premium via seat licencing and face value for tickets for the "priviledge" of my seats each year. Both of my first two were sent directly to Brandon himself. My third was inside my season ticket survey response which I was unable to save before sending. None of these warranted even a "thank you for writing" response from the Athletic Department and in all three I rattled my "I'm really going to cancel these" threat.
As you may remember other posters get a bit testy with me during that time on this topic so I tried to back off commenting on the subject and didnt see any point in rehashing it any further with a thread topic. People clearly knew where i stood and lots of posters were getting pissed at me for beating the drum as loud and long as I did. I'm only chiming in now cause posts like these and the one from Friday on the emails sent to students indicate I wasnt alone in my frustrations and angst.
Money talks. As much as I hate the idea of an empty Michigan Stadium I love the idea of effecting real change on ticket prices/policies. That being said, Go Blue and go Team 135!
The J. Ira and Nicki Harris Family Head Football Coach Brady Hoke.
There, now your letter makes some sense.
It seems like nothing would make people on this board happier than if Michigan had a half filled stadium..then everyone could pound their chest and say "I told you so". The past couple days has been filled with people so full of pride and showing off by bragging that they didnt renew tickets this year so they could say they stuck it to Brandon. Congrats - a remarkable act of civil disobedience.
I now fully understand the lone post from Friday that I saw pointing out about how awful and fair-weathered most Michigan fans are these days and how much they complain about everything.
I want to be able to take my son to a game, I'd like to watch Michigan football without being advertised to at a loud volume the entire game, I'd like to watch football at a reasonable price with lots of fans and have fun. Some people want to keep the tickets they've had for 30 years without spending ridiculous amounts. Some people love Michigan but don't wish to prove their love through money every year.
Speaking only for myself and nobody else, the only thing keeping me from buying season tickets is the ungodly cost. I grew up in the early 60s as a Michigan fan (family tradition), and MSU and OSU kicked our ass back then for the most part.
I just can't justify four figures for a pair of seats, not when I've got a bathroom that needs a re-do and a daughter in grad school.
The original letter above specifically said he wasnt renewing his tickets until Michigan can put a team out that can win more than 7 or 8 games in a year...it said nothing about the cost. That is the complaining Im specifically talking about.
Of course, if the price is an issue to a person, then no one would find any fault with someone not renewing for that reason. The higher prices over the years is a reality of reinvesting into new facilities...look at all of the sports that will have new facilities within the past few and next few years. If i were a non-revenue sport athlete at Michigan, I would absolutely think Brandon is the greatest AD ever as he has led to new facilities for almost every sport.
Dave Brandon has essentially exploited the fact that 110,000 people every week love Michigan football enough to put themselves over a financial barrel in order that Michigan can have new men's and women's lacrosse programs (among other things, obviously, but these are new things that no one was particularly clamoring for).
If that exchange had been made explicit, don't you think most people would prefer football ticket prices more in line with historical norms?
I also don't need a flyover every game. Especially quiet flyovers.
What else can you do? If we don't show Brandon that we mean business then he will just keep doing whatever he wants despite the fact that we don't win shit.
Don't you think it's absurd that prices have not decreased at all for students and fans despite the fact that the home schedule this year is awful and our team last year was awful?
If tickets were still 50 for crappy games and 75 for good games we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.
No - I definitely dont think its absurd that prices havent decreased beacuse of the 7-6 record last year. i cant see why they would lower prices because of a subpar year. The only reason they would lower prices in response to this is if they believed huge amounts of people would not renew because of the poor record AND that if so they wouldnt be able to replace them with other fans that still wanted tickets despite a 7-6 record for one year.
As for the schedule, some years its better and some years its worse. Its better to keep it relatively smooth to avoid huge jumps when the schedule is good next year as the huge jump would result in even more complaining.
if we have a great season, athletic dept. will say the price is justified. If we have a terrible season, Hoke may be gone and we'll have to pony up all kinds of money for a new coach and staff. Price is never going down, sorry to say.
I said it the other day in another thread, the fact that our "fans" have so much hatred for the athletic department is pretty incredible, doesn't bode well for the future. I live in NYC and I can't wait for the season and am already trying to decide which games I will travel for.
Fans are pissed because they are being treated with contempt. Fans have regularly made it known that they want to maintain the tradition of not having advertising in Michigan Stadium. Rather than honor that expressed desire, our athletic department tries to squeeze every penny they can out of dancing curly fries and video boards and anything else they can do while trying to keep a straight face and say that the exclusion of ads means a lot to them too.
Fans who have paid large sums of money for years to attend events and support Michigan athletics have seen prices and new fees rise exponentially (Brian broke down in a fairly recent post how the price relative to inflation was steady for virtually 100 years until Dave Brandon arrived on campus). Basketball fans who supported the team in lean years have been pushed out of their seats now that the team is good. Most people will only accept being treated like suckers at a carnival for so long.
Most fans love the traditions of the Michigan Marching Band and viewed a football Saturday in the Big House as a damn near perfect experience. Now those cozy thoughts are drowned out by Neil Diamond and an assortment of 80's rock bands.
People are pissed at the athletic department because they are being extorted for a constant stream of cash while the product they love is being dramatically altered, and in the opinion of most that alteration isn't improving things. Acting like those people aren't "real fans" because of that reaction is fucking ridiculous.
You have absolutely nailed it from my perspective PurpleStuff.
Also agree with music being too loud. Maybe they think we can't hear.
But here's a question: Would you rather have advertising and lower prices? I wouldn't mind that. I'm not sure how many arenas/stadiums are left with no advertising. Are there a lot? I honestly have no idea. It is a way to make $$.... Sorry if this has been covered.
Michigan football has had more reasonable ticket prices and no advertising for basically its entire existence. The only reason the choice comes up is if you assume that absolute profit maximization is and should be the model for amateur athletics.
Michigan football already creates a ridiculously large sum of money through (reasonably priced) ticket sales, actually voluntary donations, TV money, etc. And the players are still just getting an education and a place to live/eat for four years. All that revenue maximization ends up doing is creating a pile of cash that has to go to some construction company or into the already full pockets of guys like Brandon, Hoke, and Beilein.
Making really rich guys even richer and putting an extra building or two on campus (that you may be able to pay for anyway if you just ask nicely for the cash) doesn't justify inconveniencing, much less tormenting, your core audience. It is probably bad for business in the long term and it doesn't lead anywhere particularly beneficial even if it works from a revenue perspective.
I totally agree with these posts. I'm not here to say Dave Brandon is evil for the way he's running the AD -- I hate much/most of it (football-wise, as well as in other areas) -- but it's his department to run. If they can maximize profits doing it their way, and that's what they care about, more power to them. I'm just finding myself less and less interested in being a part of it.
I renewed my season tickets this year almost entirely due to family/friends pressure to keep our large block of tickets together and not have random people sitting in the middle of them (where my tickets are). For the first time in my life, though, I felt zero excitement about buying my tickets this year. I guess in some ways it could be called fair-weathered, but for me at least, it's not even about the product on the field, or really even the schedule -- I never felt this way during the lowest of the RR years -- but the whole experience (of going to games, dealing with the AD, all of it), and the detachment I feel that was never there before. As attending Michigan games moves closer and closer to the experience of attending NFL games, the less I'm interested in going. They may not care, and many my fellow fans may not care -- I don't have any ill-will towards the "don't let the door hit you on the way out" crowd, and I understand their sentiment. But I don't think I'm alone in feeling like the unique experience that is/was attending a Michigan football game is dying, and as the costs increase, I'm warming to the idea of just watching on TV. I take no joy in that, or in seeing an empty stadium, but I also don't want to sit in that empty stadium created by what I think is a lot of corporate greed.
Not an either/or thing. Michigan already makes more than any other athletic department in the country except Texas.
We make more than LSU, Alabama, and OSU despite the fact that we win nothing.
There is no advertising in the stadium, which is shocking compared to what almost all other D1 programs have done. Mgoblue videos that encourage you going to volleyball games aren't advertising. "Brian did a post..." Did that post consider national ticket prices for teams like Michigan, and how those costs have risen in the same period? I didn't see the article, but surely you understand that not everything rises with in line with inflation (like, for example, college tuition - are you waging an online war against MSC for the outrageous tuition increases over the last decade?). College football interest has risen enormously over the last several years, and I imagine ticket prices at most schools have done the same. If M is above the norm in those increases, then you have a valid point.
Basketball fans being pushed out - that's the market. Wins equal demand. Would you propose that they be allowed to stay in those seats and pay the same amount? That would be arbitrage - they could buy from M and sell them on the stubhub for double and profit for the next 20 years. Would that make sense to you?
The music is terrible.
"Alteration isn't improving things." The new towers at the stadium are an incredible upgrade. There are new facilities being erected all over campus that are state of the art. You have a new basketball stadum and facilities that are unrecognizable from the prior interior of the building. Yost. You have a new Schembechler Hall. You have non-revenue sports winning Olympic medals and title after title.
Costs are high, I get it. Maybe at a turning point in college football. Piling that entire issue on David Brandon is unreasonable, irrational, and "fucking ridiculous".
Discussed with you in another thread, but we are above market price. All these emails trying to get renewals proves this. And you act as if it is a necessity to have upgrades everywhere. The upgrades at crisler were definitely required, but I'm not so sure a lot of the other sports needed such huge upgrades. I actually thought the experience at Yost was better without the upgrades.
You also keep mentioning how costs have gone up. How so? With the BIG network, other tv network deals, athletic apparel deals, and continued big donations from the ultra rich (Glick field house) I just don't see why the ticket prices need to rise so high so quickly. Student tickets have gone from $22/ game to $45/ game in less than a decade. You also say that other colleges are doing the same, yet have not shown any examples. Some have pointed to Oregon giving students free admission for a program with a smaller stadium with more success over The last decade.
So why can we not blame the AD for his policies that have led us to the situation we are currently in? He added App State to a weak schedule because they were cheap. Why not send the savings on to the customers. This is not a business. There aren't share holders and thanks to Martin, michigan has been working with a large surplus for years. I don't see the justification, and these emails show that I am more right than you
I appreciate the debate, so I hope this doesn't sound in poor form, but I don't think a lot of people on this board have an in-depth understanding of economics. When I said cost above, I was referring to the cost to the consumer, which is the price from M's standpoint. I wasn't saying that M's costs have risen, so therefore prices have to rise (although that may be true partially or totally, I don't have access to M's books). From a producer's standpoint, costs and price are two totally different things. If you can produce something for $1 and sell it for $100, you do so. My point was that demand for college football has increased dramatically over the last several years, not only at Michigan but across the country, and with that demand I assume ticket prices have increased at most schools. That's the market, not Brandon. You're right, I'm not providing any data on that beyond the anecdotal - I have friends at other schools and they bitch about high prices too. Oregon State or Georgia or some of these one-off policies don't seem to be the norm, and I don't think I agree with them anyway. Free student tickets? For who? What about all the students who don't get free tickets? Is it OK that you give free tickets to some students, and then they sell those on the open market? Why not just pass out money to those who stand in line?
If you don't run it as a business, you're going to have arbitrage, which means somebody will get tickets for cheaper and sell them on the open market, and the school will lose money while that person gains. It doesn't make sense that you would do that. This is what they were trying to address with dynamic pricing. I personally feel that went too far and screwed season ticketholders over, but I understand the concept (and many other schools have gone to this).
You don't like the updgrades? OK. But what I was addressing in my post was Purplestuff's assertion that he's not getting anything in return. That's bunk. You're getting an absolute upgrade of all the athletic facilities (though I think when PS was saying that, he probably meant wins, which is silly - you can't say "I paid my money, I demand more wins", not that this has stopped the majority of this board from doing so). Maybe you don't want that, but if the goal is successful athletic programs, facilities are probably as important as coaching, academics, and tradition in recruiting. The AD's goal is successful athletic programs.
App State, ugh. Schedules aren't nearly as easy as people around here would like to assume. I'm sure Brandon would have liked to schedule Texas, but that wasn't happening. App State vs. some generic MAC team or other low-level opponent, I don't have a preference. And yes, I was destroyed the day they lost the first one. But it's been several years and I've been able to get over it.
The emails prove that demand has decreased. Why? Because the prices haven't changed in several years and the stadium was full for the last several years. For 2013, the price was at market. The schedule is weak this year (sometimes that happens), and the losses over the last several years have driven buyers away. Just like the malaise that fell on this blog - going from ND "Rows of Teeth" to Akron to Sparty - so has the same fallen on a lot of the fanbase. If you think the proper action was to reduce the price, that's fine. But I'd disagree, and I'm almost certain anyone in business would as well. If you drop the price you set a precedent for the future - if the team loses, prices will go down. What you do instead is exactly what Brandon is doing - market to people who are customers or near customers and try to spur a purchase. Discounts of some type may be next, then discounted package deals to the public. May not sell them all. But it's not because of extortionist pricing policies from the Great Satan AD. All these emails prove to me is that demand is lower. If the team went 10-2 last year, this wouldn't be an issue. And since, again, all the people in charge of winning already care more about winning than anybody on this board, the constant wailing against Brandon seems sophmoric.
The mission of the Athletic Department is to support and supplement the mission of the University of Michigan by providing intercollegiate and recreational sports programs. The development of successful teams and quality recreational sports programs, with a focus on the welfare of our student-athletes, is inherent to our mission. The Athletic Department is dedicated to the principle that the pursuit of excellence in intercollegiate athletics must be accomplished within the framework of an academic community committed to providing equitable opportunities for all student-athletes, students, and faculty.
...and not a word about maximizing revenue or avoiding arbitrage.
is this a serious point? I think so many of you are starting out with the "EVIL DAVE BRANDON" notion so ingrained in your head that you'll propose arguments - any argument - that in a typical debate you would never employ. Such is my supposition that a lot of this is politically driven.
Yes, avoiding arbitrage is not in the mission statement. It has never been in anyone's mission statement ever. Again I don't think you know what that means - it means selling at a price too low, so that someone buys it and resells in another market (stubhub) for a gain with little or no effort. This means that money that should go to the university would go to someone else. Would rather sell tickets for $10, have all the scalpers buy them, and them re-sell them to fans for $85? This is nonsensical. So let's sell tickets at a reduced rate to graduates or loyal fans or really good people who bring awareness to that disease by riding their bike from Maine to California. Who's going to determine who those people are? You? Whoever you pick, why did you pick them for a discount, and not others? Let's give a discount to everybody who wants tickets? OK, let's sell them all for $20. The school loses a bunch of money for an event its putting on. If demand is 110,000 for tickets at $85, there's probably a demand of 1,000,000 for tickets at $20. There are going to be long lines and busy phones and locked up internet connections, but OK they're all sold for $20. What now? Good? Some chunk of those people will say "Thanks Dave!", and go to the games. If you're not among them, you'll probably throw rocks at his house because you're jealous that you weren't included. Many of the others will sell the tickets on stubhub for $85. What's the point of that? That's giving out free money. That's arbitrage, and no you don't put that in the mission statement. Maximizing revenue allows you to re-invest in the programs. That's inherent in the statement above.
I thought this was part of the changes that have been contraversial. For a long time, Michigan tickets were below "market" and there was a higher demand than what the cost required. The AD used a points system to decide who should get the tickets to attend. The points were a combination of being an alum, years season tickets were held, and donations (yearly and overall amount). This system ensured that there would always be a demand and also allowed a system to reward beyond just a monetary value.
Dave Brandan has changed this model to a pure "market cost" model, that only rewards monetary (on a yearly basis, not on a overall basis) and devalues loyalty. This method may maximize revenue and lost cost on the secondary market, but does not ensure there will always be demand as you are operating at the point where demand and supply flucuate.
I believe for a non-profit university that has a long term goal (135 years old), the first model is a better overall model. I did not mind moving closer to the market value, but believe that leaving some profit on the table so loyalty, long term donations, and being an alum is rewarded, while ensuring the Big House is packed.
But what it provides you is access to better parking spots - which many disparage but a party in the blue lot is almost better than going in for the game -, road games, and other special offers. Not sure if at one time this allowed buying below market, but my guess is no. And that's just a guess, I wasn't a season ticketholder then. That was likely before PSDs and recent explosion in pricing (and facilities arms race, and coaching salaries, and everything else).
The out-sized demand for tickets is what set a lot of this off-kilter. Like NASCAR, maybe it spiked to an unsustainable level and is now coming back down.
"Again I don't think you know what that means - it means selling at a price too low, so that someone buys it and resells in another market (stubhub) for a gain with little or no effort."
I'm well aware of what it means.
It doesn't mean selling at a "price too low" - it means taking advantage of different pricing in differing markets... and yes, it means the supplier has set the price too low to maximize profit on that sale.
The problem is - measuring cost and benefit merely in dollars and cents.
"The school loses a bunch of money for an event its putting on."
You can't "lose" potential income. If you decide to lower prices (even to zero) you haven't lost anything.
"Many of the others will sell the tickets on stubhub for $85. What's the point of that?"
Goodwill, fostering loyalty, rewarding long term fans, rewarding alumni, fostering donations (both to the athletic and academic sides), etc, etc.
See: Garth Brooks and never charging more than $25/ticket, or the $20/ticket Kid Rock concert series, or paper tickets at below market prices to prevent scalpers from overcharging fans (instead of just raising prices to the microeconomic equilibrium between supply/demand).
I agree that there is an open market, however, I just disagree with the total business aspect. Bottom line has trumped loyalty, which I believe is part of the problem. Yes some people are making money off of michigan football, but just because Vegas is making money off of michigan sports, doesn't mean that michigan needs to get in the business of gambling.
Mary s Coleman did a wonderful job of increasing the UofM endowment during her tenure, yet I believe she did a poor job of increasing access to this great university for a lot of families, and I'm not talking about the poor. To some, money and bottom line are all that matters. But to me, the university as a public institution of advanced learning should conduct itself differently from a business with shareholders.
You view cost from a market cost "what is the max I can get". I look at cost as "what do we need to charge to cover costs". Different views, which measure the success very differently.
On schedule, I do agree its hard, but I do believe that the prices should have been dropped for schedule (not performance). Thanks for the balanced and thoughtful response. I definitely agree with a lot and do see where we disagree and why.
I appreciate your views as well. I'm concerned with some of the things that are happening in athletics as well - the Nebraska TVs in the bathrooms was awesome for some, for me it seemed like the absolute picture of excess.
But maximizing revenue allows the school to invest in other sports. Do they pull back on the construction of all these new facilities? Then they could reduce the cost, and price to cover costs as you suggest. But there still would be the issue of market - if they lower prices, more people will want to buy. This will drive prices right back up in the secondary market. Those lucky enough to be on the season ticketholders list would benefit tremendously, but the school would lose that revenue, which I believe is rightfully theirs.
We may be reaching a critical mass in terms of college football prices - the widespread lack of interest from students across many universities may be the canary in the coal mine. If that's the case, then prices will drop - but they will drop everywhere, not just at Michigan. And my issue is that the larger problems and real debate is being consistenly sidestepped, because the mob (at least on this board) keeps screaming evil Dave Brandon so loudly that no one else can think. And "shitty pizza salesman dur-hurr" jokes, eugh. This board is better than that.
While I don't hate Dave Brandon, I do think he's somewhat of a tasteless asshat.
My problem in a nutshell is that Brandon is a meddler.
The guy presides over a world class/world famous athletic dept., one of the few that are easily in the black, with a mind numbingly large budget . . . and he can't fucking leave it alone.
Seriosly, this a place where your uber rich alumni are donating business schools, indoor feildhouses, quarter of a BILLION dollar stadium renovations, and he's fucking around with curly fries and macaroni noodles?! WTF?!
Schmooze your big donors, count your cash like scrooge mcDuck and call it a day.
By all accounts Dave Brandon does a great job keeping the Bill Martin $ train rolling along, and that's got to be at least 1/3 of your job. Make some good coaching hires, and build some facilities when needed and thats it. End of job description.
I might be wrong in my estimates, but I would think that TV contracts, Alumni donations, athletic apparel agreements & ticket sales are probably at least 95% of your budget income. Other than ego, why is Dave Brandon messing aroiund with small-time fringe advertising, mascots, skywriting, dicking around with the band & other traditions?
Because he's a meddler; an egotistical meddler that tripled his marketing budget & staff and now they are in a desperate search for a WOW experience to justify it all.
What I find so laughable, is that he seems to be trying to create a sterile bland, NFL-like game day experince, while simultaneously employing minor league baseball-like tactics and gimmicks. That disconnect, coupled with the endless PR speak comes off as pretty sleazy sometimes. Michigan just doesn't need these tactics, $ arms race or not.
You can be a good CEO and a "shitty pizza salesman" at the same time.
The athletic department should work under a "loyalty business model" and not be hung up on maximizing short (or even medium) term revenue.
If you're not going because of the team's record last year, that makes you a fairweather fan. I'm sorry. You're not going because the team won 7 games last year and you call yourself a Michigan fan?
Not exactly. One doesn't have to go to the games to be a fan. When you buy a ticket to a game, are you purchasing the right to cheer for your team in person or are you purchasing entertainment? If it's the former, then you're right. If it's the later, it becomes increasingly difficult to justify the expenditure if the "entertainment" is subpar.
You are missing the point..of course one doesnt have to go to be considered a fan. However, if someone has season tickets and specifically states that they are cancelling for the explcit reason that Michigan only won 7 games last year, then that is totally different.
but I don't think the insult is very meaningful.
The fact that people don't have as much fun watching a mediocre team as they do watching a good team is logical. Paying $800 to watch a mediocre team suffer through a mediocre season and telling yourself it is equally as fun as watching a good team is borderline psychotic.
Crappy performance + Crappy schedule = Decreased ticket sales
Nobody really knows how the team will do next year and fans tend to be optimistic on the whole. I haven't been a season ticket holder since my student days (2000-03) and these prices would have been considered bonkers back then too (a time when the team never went worse than 6-2 in B1G play and averaged over 9 wins a season). You couldn't give away tickets for games against the directional schools or teams like Houston or Utah. Now that is pretty much the whole schedule and the athletic department wants a second portrait of Ben Franklin if you want to bring a friend to the game.
I totally agree with this and your other post above. People are pissed by the AD's money grubbing, whether it is the introduction of the PSD's, the huge escalation in ticket prices, or the BS regarding seat cushions, water, the band not traveling (and then traveling) with the team, and advertising in the stadium.
All of this is CEO/corporate short sightedness on Brandon's part. He has been maximizing current profits at the expense of future revenues (particularly future donations by current students and alumni). He will have an impressive bottom line of increasing current profitability to the department, but with a strong downward trend in attendance and good will among students and alumni.
A better question might be will any of the games have attendances below 100K?
Anything in September should be over 100K. PSU is the night game so above 100K. Indiana is Homecoming so above 100K. Maryland is the last game of the year so I would assume it would be above 100K.
Hugely important to win @ND this year to try to recapture the all time winning percentage from them.
Not so fast, my friend... we might be marching forward into the past.
Our last home game in 1974 was on Nov. 16 against Purdue. We were 9-0 and ranked #3, and there was feverish anticipation of the looming showdown against OSU for the trip to the Rose Bowl, and, just as importantly, revenge for '73.
Even so, we could only muster 88,902 for the last home game.
If poor weather and a poor record plays a factor for the Maryland game I could see it below 100K. Freezing November rain is no fun but otherwise I figure senior day is a good bet to get people out to the game. In 2008 we were 3-7 played in rain and still had 107,856 come for the Northwestern game so who knows.
Yeah but in 2008, we had just thrashed a pretty good Minnesota team, plus it was Rich Rodriguez's first year. I remember going into the Northwestern game thinking that we had turned the corner.
With all of that being said, as long as we're good this year we won't have to worry about have a crowd of under 100k.
In 2008 we were 3-7 played in rain and still had 107,856 come for the Northwestern game so who knows.
The announced attendance isn't an actual count of the number of people in the stands. It's the number of tickets sold plus the people with press/field passes.
So then we will never have an announced attendance count of below 100K because no matter what all these tickets will get sold.
I would guess so. We might drop below capacity (109,901) though.
That game was awful. Only time I ever left a game early. Had like 3 rain suits on. Remember stripping in the middle of AA Saline Road on the way to finishing the game at Bdubs
They will never announce it under 100,000.
see our first under 100,000 paid attendance crowd?
*First since 1975.
Yes, I am that old.
(Don's avatar is an actual photo of Don.)
It's actually a highly-retouched photo. You should see what I really look like before I've had my coffee. "The Cryptkeeper" doesn't do it justice...
I work for the university too and was thinking the same thing that I have never seen an e-mail like this any year before. I hate to see the university do less than the best but if an economic message is the only way to get Dave Brandon's attention...
I doubt they would ever do this but it would be great if they sent a survey to those that have dumped their season tickets in the last few years. They might find out that the team results aren't the main cause of the sudden lack of interest.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall in some of these meetings. That and actually see the real numbers for tickets, i.e. how many they think will be sold through these kind of promotions.
Not sure if I agree with this...if they went 11-2, there would be people lined up trying to get season tickets and the ticket office wouldnt be concerned why people dumped them as the demand would be there. The reason there may not be the demand right now is because Michigan went 7-6...when the product on the field isnt as exciting and doesnt win games, thats when people decide that maybe it costs too much and there isnt new demand clamoring to get those season tickets.
No doubt if they were winning more games then demand would be higher. 2014 weak home schedule plus coming off an uninspiring 2013 season is what is causing this lack of demand.
Whose decision was it to schedule OSU and MSU both home or both away every year? Did Dave Brandon have input on this? If his plan is to hike up prices every other year and freeze them in between (when no OSU and no MSU at home) then he may be smarter than I give him credit for.
Im fairly confident in saying Im sure Brandon would have preferred to have MSU and OSU in opposite years..or are you saying his devious plan had him trying to create the worst possible schedule? Then why did it occur...probably a larger negotiating /scheduling point in setting the teams in the two divisions. While it sucks for home games this year, without knowing the actual factors its hard to really point a finger.
It seems odd to me that Michigan has 4 games in 2014 that are same venue as 2013. Home vs Minnesota and Indiana, and Away vs MSU and Northwestern. I know we were expanding to 14 teams and breaking in new divisions but our 2014 schedule got screwed.
Be safe when you drive home
After I renewed my season tickets this year I contacted the Athletic Development Office and specifically asked what the renewal rates were compared to last year. Whether or not you view it as half full or half empty, the 8% difference from a year ago is down about 8,792 seats. Then there was the student renewal discussion which amounted to about another 1,200 - 1,500 seat renewal drop off. I know some of these will be picked up by new buyers but, I doubt they all go to new buyers. I think we will see the return of the ticket packs. Losing roughly 10,000 fans at the Big House is going to be very noticeable unless the AD gets creative. Having said that, I still think we see a sellout for most every game. I am hoping it is not as bad as it sounds.
I think what makes ticket packs successful is having a premium game bundled with them. You get a couple of MAC games and low B1G along with a OSU/MSU/ND level game. Justifiably you could sell your premium game and cover the total cost of the pack.
This stat is off season ticket holders have the option to buy more season tickets without paying the PSD! Club included
$15 service charge LMAO
They guy who invented the pet rock made $1,000,000.00
The Baha Men never did anything to you.
Who let the dogs out? Who?
the whole stadium did the macarena with dancing gerbals on the big screens right before a crucial stop? If only he were AD in '98.
Post of the year
Don't disparage the pet rock..."The guy made a million dollars!"
Im tired of sitting between the end-zone and the 10 yard line for the last 6-7 years. I'm ready to get back to midfield and made the request when I renewed my tickets this year. I'm hopeful that we can move significantly towards the 50.
I got this e-mail as a student who already has season tickets. Not only are they desperate, they don't even know who they should be targeting with these e-mails.
is an endless back and forth of "take me off this email list" reply to all like back in the day. That would have been epic.
Im not sure why the original poster says that the letter from the athletic dept shows the AD is sweating. Isnt it just a matter of moving a little further down the list and opening it up to others that usually didnt get a chance? Yes - the renewal rate is lower this year because of results on the field and the schedule next year. So the logical thing is they move down to those who were unable to get tickets before or open it up to another group like in this email. Im not sure why that is equated to sweating or panic as the lower renewal rate is likely not a surprise to the athletic dept. Calling it sweating or panic just shows the motive of the original poster as trying to create hype around this ticketholder rebellion narrative.
I had four season tickets for two years but they were non renewable. As soon as DB took over an saw ND, OSU, and Nebraska on the schedule he told me to F off and that I was no better than the general public to buy over priced ticket packages. I guess that F off is coming back to bite him in the arse.
Dave Brandon doesn't seem to realize that being one is way more valuable in the long term than the other, even if you have to pass up a little short term reward. Turns out tricking people into eating shitty pizza is poor preparation for being loveable.
but I am thoroughly enjoying watching the AD squirm trying to basically beg people to buy tickets while still using the PSD and phrases like "required donation". (Which speaking of that, I hate PSD's. So you pay money to even have the oppotunity to buy something? Ok guy)
I learned this in high school microecon Dave. The price is too high and your supply is above your demand. Lower those prices or make the product better
I think Brandon has showed he understands your pretty graph very well. The fact that prices have been raised the past few years and the stadium is still full means the product was underpriced and there was more demand than supply.
As for this year, Im not sure where we can conclude yet that there is insufficient demand. Yes - more people than normal seem to be failing to renew but perhaps there are other sources to make up that demand (just like the faculty email at the top).
The fact that they are moving down the list to offering tickets to faculty at a discount and sending reminder emails does not necessarily equate to "squirming" and forcing them to "basically beg" as you say. There is a possibility that this is exactly what they expected and they analyzed this, expected this response, and already had strategies in place to make up the demand such as this. Without knowing what they are thinking, there is no way to make your conclusion until we see the stands in the fall.
You are much too resonable.
but I suppose I'm still just a bit offended that I feel the AD is out to maximize their cashflow. Obviously this is a running argument that sounds like "think of the children!" but college sports used to feel different to me. The players were student-athletes and college sports just had a much purer feel to it than the pro-sports world of moneymoneymoney. College sports (esp. football) just seems to be creeping closer and closer to a pro sports in how they treat everything and I don't like it
In the long term I think PSDs go away.
If anything, ticket prices would go down before the removal of PSD's. The loophole is that PSD's are not shared with the B1G. That is all Michigan profit and to pay whatever bills we have for facilities etc. Whereas, gate receipts from ticket sales are shared with the other conference members. Now, we all know that ticket prices nor PSD's will never truly go down. Therefore, we will likely see a leveling off of the ticket/PSD prices for several years before we see a decrease in pricing.
If it is true what was stated above, that PSDs are not shared with the visiting team like the gate from ticket prices, then I would say that PSDs are here to stay and that the prices will start to be discounted under some kind of promotional attendence drive or some such thing.
Using this downturn in demand to position for future years and support our 900+ students playing sports. 4 in the bowl and brother got 4 in the Club. If you don't pay craft beer higher prices you are only going to have Bud Light available. Michigan sports are a commitment not a transaction for a product. Go Blue since 1969!
You are gaining no position. The people who bought basketball tickets for the decade prior to John Beilein's arrival had to pay up or move back to the cheap seats. You will too if Dave Brandon thinks he can squeeze an extra buck out of someone else.
I don't know why you would see this as a point of pride. Loyalty should work both ways, otherwise you are just a guy with his wallet open. But I guess someone in the athletic department is grateful.
He probably thinks it makes him a " real fan"
Just a supporter of the University and Athletic Dept. Paying a few bucks extra is not a big deal. Old man view I guess! Retirement!
You're missing the point.
Based on the majority of commenters here it seems to be precisely about money.
Oh for me it is definitely about the money. I am sick and tired of paying for the privledge of buying season tickets and then seeing similar tickets on stub hub discounted sometimes over 50%. If I want to support other michigan sports then I will donate accordingly to the general fund. I couldn't care less about premium features, such as free ticket transfers or first shot at the Michigan allotment for bowl tickets (which can be bought on stubhub for a massive discount). Basically I am tired, as someone said earlier, being treated like a john and not as a loyal season ticket holder especially whent the product sucks.
You definitely make a good point
Describing it as "a commitment not a transaction" is a lot different than saying "paying a few extra bucks is not a big deal."
You're free to do whatever you want with your money and hopefully you have a great time at the games this coming season. Just realize that Dave Brandon and Co. only appreciate you so long as the checks keep coming (and getting bigger). That is why some people are upset with how things are being run. They made (or thought they made) a commitment that was not reciprocated once the AD felt it was financially advantageous to try and screw them out of more money.
Don't feel bad he is just a hater because he doesn't have the cash to drop. Enjoy what you enjoy and spend away because you can't take it with you!
Just so we're clear - when we have fewer than 100k at a game - it's not because the fans care less - it's because Michigan stopped caring about the fans. I don't want to hear anyone harping on the fans, they didn't change.
For you econ guys - what do you think the proper pricing should be this year? I'd say$45-50 per game.
Just like the price was right the last few years. The schedule and price is fair over the course of two seasons. It just sucks this year.
For what it's worth the "one time extension" was just sent out to non-superfan former student ticket holders. The email was sposered by Xfinity....
Time to start the door to door campaign.
From the latest student email campaign:
"As you are aware, the deadline to purchase student season tickets has passed (Tuesday, April 15), however, due to the introduction of the new student football reserved seating policy and the opportunity to form groups, we have extended the deadline to purchase season tickets in order to allow additional time for you to purchase season tickets or create or join a group. Extended Deadline: Friday, April 25 at 5 p.m."
Bolded part should read, "lack of interest."
It's not the only factor, but start winning some damn football games and get people interested again. People want to watch an exciting, and most importantly, a winning product.
"required donation "
First of all, there is no such thing. If it is required, it's a fee. Donation suggests an option. Secondly, I just looked at the schedules for the next few years. Maryland and Rutgers. Every damn year. Yawn and yawn. http://www.mgoblue.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/081809aab.html So frustrating to not see traditional opponents - I won't get to see a traditional opponent , Iowa, at Michigan Stadium, until 2019. Oh hi! Iowa! I remember you! You used to be in the Big Ten, right?