Anyone who agrees with Drew Sharp needs their head examined.
further adventures in Jed York being unsuited for his position
Anyone who agrees with Drew Sharp needs their head examined.
The worst thing Hoke could do is to let these "haters" or the media make him deviate from a fair solution. IMO, a moral person does what he thinks is right, not what others think.
It's simple. Fitz should not and will not play. Let the legend of Thomas Rawls be born behind, what I see as, a very underrated O-line at his point. Pound Rawls right up there crimson asses. Sorry, THEIR. I know the rules around here. Just a little slip.
Why didn't fitz contact the firm at the top of mgoblog to "avoid a DUI conviction" and secondly, why should the rest of the team, those that didn't get caught drinking and driving, have to suffer because fitz screwed up? Any punishment should be solely for fitz, not the entire team. Make him speak to hs kids about drinking and driving. Make him attend Survivors Speakout, but to say he has to miss a game to be punished is ridiculous. Should he decide to go pro after this season, missing 1 game isn't going to teach him anything.
Letting your teammates down is probably the biggest punishment you could ever receive. Is running extra sprints and waking up early ever going to resonate as loud as letting down your entire team. My senior year of football our starting linebacker got a DUI and missed four games. I'll never forget how bad he felt about letting everyone down, he could hardly look any of us in the eye.
That is a reasonable argument for suspension. So, guess the remaining question is; what are the detailed facts of the case and what punishment fits the crime.
I swear I hit the button once.
you let your team down w/ that double post... j/k
man i feel bad for some of your kids..they better never mess up....since dad was so perfect
The kid made a mistake. Did the pellet gun he had on him come up at all? That was the most disappointing thing about all of this, that he was carrying a pellet gun that had been modified to look like a real gun.
He also had a previous DWLS, so I hope that doesn't mean jail time.
Kids make mistakes, but I think Hoke needs to sit him for at least 1 game.
Id be shocked if he's on the field...Hoke's whole point about "this is Michigan" goes deeper than wins and losses and recruiting. Based off the tolerance for Stonum, I'd say we won't see Fitz in Dallas. This is Michigan and if the past is any indicator, he will be suspended.
Hoke, by playing the wait-and-see game, has worsened the situation. He's made it bigger. Either way, he should have made a call on this already and put it in the past. Why keep it alive like this? Now, if plays Fitz, it will look especially bad. Which is why I'm guessing he's not playing him.
Because Fitz told him that he wasn't drunk when he got stopped by the checkpoint and barely blew over the limit, which is what it seemed like from day 1.
None of us knows what really happened, but the police did report that FItz was well-behaved and extremely polite. That is not a common description of a completely wasted drunk.
Also, when most imperfect medical tests--like the breathalyzer---are done, some people will inevitably be miscategorized (eg called drunk when they are sober).
To illustrate, suppose a test correctly detects 99% of real drunks (True positive (TP) rate=.99. However, when the person is not really drunk, it calls them drunk 20% of the time (False positive (FP) rate=.2. Suppose further that 30% of people who are pullled over and tested really are drunk, but 70% are not. Then, a positive test for drunk driving among 99 people will correctly identify 66 true drunks but falsely accuse 33 people who are not drunk.
Clearly, the results could be less extreme for the breathalzyer. But there would still be a substantial percentage of falsely accused. One would then need to rely on other behavioral evidence of intoxication, and only the courts can really judge the quality of such evidence.
FP rate .2
TP .99 rate.
Prior chance of being drunk = .3 Prior Odds of being drunk = .3/.7
Posterior Odds of being drunk= Prior Odds x .TPrate /FP rate = .3/.7 x .99/.2 = about 2: 1
But that means that among 99 people tested, 66 real drunks will be found but 33 will be falsely called drunk
(this purely hypothetical example assumes that someone actually verifies the drunk-sober status of those not pulled over by police and it is based on a simplifying assumption of conditional independence. Less extreme but still illustrative results would be produced by relaxing this assumption).
Count me among the disappointed if Fitz or Clark plays. If this happened at any other school, many of the fans on this board would be skewering the coach and the football program.
(as occured with my last post)
You ask a reasonable question. My answer: The problem is that none of us--except perhaps Fitz, his lawyer and his coach--know exactly what happened. While a truly intoxicated person clearly deserves serious punishment, the determination of intoxication is not always so clear. To take an extreme example, would you not feel unjustly accused of drunk driving if you had a half of a beer, then narrowly avoided an accident, got pulled over, and falsely test positive on a breath test (for any of the reasons cited above)?
I am not saying that this actually happened to Fitz (in fact, I doubt it). I only point out that there can be a grey zone between being completely alcholol free and completely inebriated. Just where Fitz stood in that grey zone---while certainly subject to misrepresentation by a dishonest, self-serving coach--- could rightly have a bearing on the punishment that an honest coach gives him.
We know exactly how drunk he was. He blew a .12. That's how you gauge it.
a vague situation here. It's not like this is the Furman case, where alot of the specific facts were were in question. He drove drunk, plain and simple.
but it is not. Far from it. See my posts above and below this for further illustrations.
Is the primary evidence re: Fitz's intoxication a breath test? If so, the number of possible sources of error in that test is breathtaking: eg differences in individual breathing patterns and physiology, conditions such as gingivitis, esophageal reflux, activities such as kissing, use of breath spray or mouthwash, as well as variations in the time of alcohol consumption and a multitude of possible test errors.* (indeed, if he drank brandy, as he says he did, then I wonder if this more aromatic substance would be more likely to yield false positive test results. I also wonder if the lower breathing rate of athletes does the opposite of hyperventilation and falsely increases apparent alcohol in the breath tests).
In any case, Fitz's plea down to a lesser sentence may have arisen because the police could not definitively prove that he had an illegally high blood alcohol concentration. Perhaps the "visible evidence of impairment" acknowldged in Fitz's plea was based on other, subjective evidence, such as police impressions of his speech, eye movements, finger-to-nose testing, etc.--but these impressions too can be subjective and prone to error.
I raise these questions merely to illustrate how one could wrongly assume that a breath test is definitive proof of a DUI. It is not. However, I do not in any way justify Fitz's apparent poor judgment. IMO, he does deserve some punishment for himself. At the same time, though, the team itself really does not deserve punishment, and to keep him out of the whole Ala game would reduce their chances of victory.
So, what would be fair? I have an admittedly unconventional suggestion: Suspend Fitz not for a single game but for 1 1/2 games. the latter would include the first half of each of the next 3 games (Ala, Air Force, and UMass). That would not punish the entire team by keeping him out of the whole Ala game. Yet for Fitz, himself, it would be a longer suspension and demotion than than would a single game (eg for Ala only). It would also give his replacements longer to challenge his starting status.
so I can enjoy some of the reactions. With the strength of conviction and moral superiority some of you seem to have, I'll be expecting to see you in green next year.
Your statement does not follow. You have not pointed out what statements by posters in this thread illustrate an undue "strength of conviction" or "moral superiority".
Maybe you are right, but I suspect that most of us are genuinely conflicted about what to do.
or restore it.
It's not...And I tried to help (restore).
You're of the minority, in a way, in your stance (though you're definitely not alone) and you're bringing up decent arguments and playing devils advocate in a geniune and courteous manner...at times, around here that naturally means you're going to get negged, I guess.
Think we are crazy because we think he might get suspended. Down here, that deserves just your typical slap on the wrist.
If he were a music major, would he be suspended from playing in concerts? If he were an art major, would he not be in the next exhibit? If he were an english major, no writing for a month? Face it, these kids major in football, and I personally don't really care what they do outside of that.
Good point because if a regular college kid gets busted on a OWVI, he pays his fines, gets his restricted license and goes about his business. It's insanely stupid to drive drunk, but blowing .12 is a lot different than blowing a .21.
The idea that Fitz playing would be morally reprehensible seems to be based on the concept that members of the football team are ambassadors to the entire university (full disclosure: I did not attend) and therefore held to a higher standard than the rest of the student body.
Which means the question becomes: Should they be expected to behave like students or athletes?
I am aa little late to the party, but this feels like one of those decisions that gets him on the field. He'll do the community service, but I'd be shocked if he saw any jail time. Figure he'll be playing on Saturday.
It's up to the Coach if he will play any portions of this game. If it is a blow out by halftime, one way or the other, Hoke will probably keep him out. Also, you never know what the punishment game is? May be he will sit out in a future game?
that is televising the Michigan Alabama game.
SpartanSam (Speaking in incoherent tones known to every bartender): "How dare Hoke put him in? Dantonio would never do that.”
MichiganMike: “That’s because all his team are repeat offenders. They’d still be in jail.”
BuckeyeBob (his words slurring together almost incomprehensibly).: “I don’t care whatcha say….He blew a .12….guilty of drunk driving.”
MichiganMike: “You already said that.”
BuckeyeBob: Well, I’ll say it again (raising his voice so that it is now almost audible in Columbus): “Guilty Guilty Guilty,”
MichiganMike: “Thanks for clearing that up.”
Barely able to lift his wobbly head from the bar, SpartanSam says to Buckeye Bob, . “Well, let’s get the hell get out of this goddamn state. Let’s find a real f-ing sports bar. A place where there aren’t all these sonovabiches who don’t give a damn about drunk driving.”
BuckeyeBob, ,staggering to keep his balance, replies:….”Okay. . I’ll drive.”
Good, give him the Michael Floyd treatment and move on.
To tardily give my input. 1. I don't care, either way, what happens. I have no dog in this fight (figuratively speaking) and what Hoke decides, it'll be in a justified manner. 2. I do think he will play. Plain and simple.
What ails me is the worriyng over the notion of, "what this will make 'us' look like"; whoever the hell "us" is. Yes, I know "us" is to mean us and you all, the alums, fans, Universty members, etc.. If Hoke allows Touissaint to play in ths Alabama game, there are many of you worrying how this will make the University look, I guess. To that I say, Who gives a sh*t?! You're worried about what other fans will say, what other message board geeks are going to say, what your Ohio and Sparty pals are going to say, etc.. Again, I say, who cares!? There's this hubris amongst fans these days that we're so protective of "our teams" and we put these "teams", and to some degree the players, on these pedestals and worship them; and when something "bad" happens to them our hubris is outed, to defend and shoot down naysayers.
Has something someone said or has the reputation of a collegiate sporting team you have a rooting interest in, ever affected your life in a real way? I would guess no for the vast majority of fans; if you answer yes, other issues are at stake. Seek help.
Let Hoke make the decision. Cut the "I will be dissapointed if he plays". The University of Michigan and all of it's members are a classy institution. This little (not little on a micro level or to be taken lightly, but in the scheme of things involving the University) incident has no bearing on that, AT ALL! Don't let the jackasses of the world force you or worry you to think otherwise. It's all talk, sports talk, and most sports talk is a bunch of time-killing; nothing significant nor important in the scheme of things. If Fitz plays, he'll more than likely have earned it and educated himself on some life lessons while doing so (we can all hope, anyways).