spoiler alert: i linked this
Fans didn't do RR in
he has an accent?
I will put your children through college.
The media didn't do Richrod in either.
Chizik would still be hated had they not gone out and bought a new QB.
he wasnt purchased, ok?
it was a tax-deductible deduction to the good reverend's church. check your facts, man.
on the coaching changes being discussed for the past month and I have tried to avoid it. I took great pride in being a Michigan fan but I have never been more disappointed or discouraged to be one for the last month. This has nothing to do with the way we played but has everything to do with the fan base's action toward RR. I used to be able to brag that Michigan fans are different from the SEC fans that I am surrounded by, but this last month has shown quite the opposite. I am also very disappointed in the way DB has handled this as well. What is the purpose of leaving the coaching staff, players, recruits and fans in limbo for so long? How can anyone get mentally prepared for a bowl game with all of these supposed changes going on? It just disgusts me that so many people want to whine about RR when he (and those players) are giving there all out there. I will always love Michigan with all of my heart but my opinion has changed dramatically of the fan base from the pure ignorance of it all.
I always thought that Michigan fans were somehow different than the rest of CFB. Obviously I was wrong. Right now I would say that the fan base that Michigan reminds me of most is Notre Dame, and given how much I hate that school, kills me to say.
is a concern of mine with Harbaugh being hired possibly is part of me thinks we need to get the hell away from the old Michigan. It has failed miserably in the past 5 years and we might be better off with someone else and let RR be the sacrificial lamb that got us through the transition. Or just keep RR.....
Michigan has about half a million living alumni. Michigan graduates about 7000 students (undergrad) each year. It is not possible to "get the hell away from the old Michigan."
I may be arguing against a straw man, but I took the comment about getting away from the "old Michigan" as a criticism of the "blue hair" alumni who don't understand or appreciate RR's offensive philosophy vis-a-vis the Big 10.
to a girl meeting a guy...at a bar and thinking it will be different from the last guy she met...at a bar
"But, I thought you were different!"
Obviously the point is missed. Fans can be displeased all they want. However, whining for over a fucking month? It has been a constant rant over and over and over again. You have to be kidding me. These kids and our coach deserved a hell of a lot more than what the fan base gave them over the past 4 weeks (or 3 years even). That was the point.
Are you suggesting that poor treatment from fans is the cause of the poor preparation for this bowl game?
I don't know if I should be a douche or just answer the question. I think I will just leave you to wonder.
You misunderstand my intent, and I may have misread your post. You said,
How can anyone get mentally prepared for a bowl game with all of these supposed changes going on?
in conjunction with,
These kids and our coach deserved a hell of a lot more than what the fan base gave them over the past 4 weeks
and I interpreted it to mean you thought the apparent lack of progress for today's game was somehow related to the fans' behavior towards the team. I don't believe that's a valid criticism of the fans regardless of their behavior.
However, re-reading your post, it sounds like you blame DB's lack of support for RR for causing the staff and players not to be "mentally prepared for a bowl game" today. I'm not sure I think that's any more valid, but I understand if you are blaming DB rather than the fans.
Hope this makes sense. Correct me if I'm wrong.
That was my intent. I was blaming DB for his "timeline". He should have already made a decision. I don''t think that this is to blame for the loss, but the "mental" part of the game has a lot to do with the way it is played and/or coached. I would like to know how if it would have turned out if DB's decision had already been made. Again, I don't blame this loss on that but all the controversy going on certainly did not help things. Sometimes a coach "coaching" to save his job or players playing for his coach to keep his job can both have some very negative or positive effects. The fans had nothing to do with the loss. I was mainly pissed because of the constant whining about RR. None of us control this issue so I was aggravated that it has been beat into the ground constantly for this long when we could have concentrated on these kids playing their hearts out.
Good point about support. If you don't have it, it's harder to succeed. I think you made a very valid argument that I agree with. I have one question for you about next year though. Unless DB gives RR an extension, RR and the players will go through the same environment next year. Do you really think they can be much better. The pressure will be just as bad if not worst than the last month. My biggest worry is that DB gives RR another year and the lack of support or extension give us another year like this year. I don't see DB giving him an extension. As much as I like RR and still think he is a good coach, I have become indifferent about him being here. I think we will win with him or someone else.
I am not sure if the fans and media did in RR, but it certainly didn't help with all of the BS from day 1.
Now I know that some of you put Flick up to this, but he has refused to say who. But those who did it know their blame, and I'm sure that the guilt you must feel would be far worse than any punishment you might receive. Now, don't you feel terrible?
"Adults loved to say things like that but kids knew better. We knew darn well it was always better not to get caught."
All that to say is I put you in Mrs. Shields category and the folks wringing their hands about this and not giving two flips what your opinion is as Ralphie.
With all due respect, fans are fans. Short for fanatics. Zealots. No one that has had an opinion about this stuff really cares what others think about them. I respect your passion for the Blue.
I didn't think it was possible, but over this season we as a fanbase, have proven to be worse than ND. It's sad.
BS. Let's put this "we are turning into the ND fanbase" line to rest. ND fans complained when their coaches were dragging the program into mediocrity. None of those coaches were ever under 500 at any point in their careers!
RR has gone 15-22 and currently has us in the Big 10 basement... and posters here sound absolutely heartbroken that he might get canned. The ND fanbase would have abandoned him completely 2 seasons ago. Get a grip.
When RR is fired sometime this week, he will have earned $10 million for 37 months of employment.
You mean that RR will have received $10 million.
inventing this "True Believer" meme for the sake of an argument. I don't think you're going to find a single fan who thinks Greg Robinson was a good hire or a fan who thinks RR has met expectations. But to me, it simply seems short sighted to write off all the adversity RR has had to deal with as being trivial.
You are both wrong and miss the point in the same thread. Impressive!
First, the comparison to Auburn is completely misplaced. For one, Cam Newton would never, ever have attended Michigan. Even if he wanted to enroll, he would have been denied admission. So to claim that Auburn is a good example of how things should have happened with Rodriguez and Michigan if Rodriguez was good is plain silly. Without Newton, Auburn is merely above average at best.
Second, the point people were making in wishing fans would chill the f- out was that the bad publicity is/was affecting recruiting. And you are sorely mistaken if you claim that is not the case. Kids coming out of high school are either sold on a school as they grew up or are sold on it by a coach(es). For the latter, those kids are not going to pick a school where there is a possibility that the person(s) that they grew close to and fond of is being burned by the supposed fan base. This was the fear of people like myself in reading all of these "CC" threads. (Personally, I don't think most of the posters have thought about the real ramifications of firing Rodriguez and bringing in someone who will run a different style of offense on the next few years and that, in and of itself, has been extremely frustrating.)
A coach with a proven track record of success at multiple stops came here, got handed a bad football team and a roster with well-documented gaping holes in it, made the team better two seasons in a row, has the team poised for continued improvement with nearly his entire roster returning next season, and people want him fired while members of his first full recruiting class are still redshirt freshmen.
Yes, fans who think Rich Rodriguez showed up and broke the Michigan football program are the fucking problem.
We've improved by two wins each of the last two seasons. If you think the team is a train wreck now, what do you think they were when they went 3-9 or were getting blown out by worse versions of teams like Illinois and Notre Dame that we beat this season?
If this guy is such a shitty coach, why does the team keep getting better every year?
Your mistake is that you think the team has gotten better. The team is actually worse than it was last year. The record is a bit better because we squeaked past Illinois and purdue. In the games that really matter, against rivals and good teams, this year we fared far worse than we did last year. We were thrashed. The gap widened. It doesn't matter how many crap teams you beat. You're judged bases on how you measure up to quality teams. It's not even close. Accept reality.
we lost to Illnois last year by a lot. We were blown out. By Illinois, who was much worse last year than this year.
3 < 5 < 7
I'm not the one arguing against it just because I'm mad the U-M football team isn't as good as I would like it to be right now.
3, 5, 7 = all less than 9-4 the year before RR arrived. We've only improved relative to 2008 after RR nuked a successful program.
RR didn't nuke shit. Look at the players he was left with. He inherited a bad team, period. He has steadily improved this team and in my opinion did one of the better coaching jobs you will see when starting as many freshman and sophomores as he did.
I want Rodriguez fired, but the argument that this team is worse than last year's team is terrible. We won 7 games this year and made a bowl. We did this by beating two teams we lost to last year. We also beat a good Connecticut team and a good Notre Dame team. Yes, we were beaten up by MSU and OSU and that sucks, but MSU is a hell of a lot better this year than they were last year and we played OSU on the road this year.
See also: Iowa, Wisconsin, Mississippi State.
Your claim is that we are equal to or worse than we were last year because we lost to some teams by a greater margin than we did last year. This is not much evidence to overcome the fact that Michigan has a better record against a schedule that is at least as good as last year's and that pretty much every statistical ranking system for overall team performance has us higher than last year. Yes, the net improvement was modest considering that the progression on the offensive side of the ball is coupled by the regression of the defense and special teams, but it is improvement nonetheless.
for example, he didn't improve the team 2 seasons in a row - believe our 2009 b10 record was worse than our 2008 record. you probably just don't have a lot of life experience. RR may have been successful at other stops, but that's not a guarantee of success at Michigan. Maybe it was the Peter Principle, maybe UM is a bad fit for RR's spread. I guarantee you it sure as hell wasn't the fans. RR needs to man up and take responsibility. As Bill Parcell's said, "You are what your record says you are." Let's cut the bullshit!
Having one healthy upperclassmen in the secondary makes it tough to field a good defense? Maybe having one first day NFL draft pick over a three year period means your team isn't as talented as the ones you are playing against?
There are two possibilities: Rodriguez has screwed up while coaching Michigan, or he walked into a shitty situation and has had to battle against that.
All the facts (prior resume, lack of draft picks, holes in the depth chart so wide that freshmen from the general student body can walk right into the starting lineup, better record each season as more Rodriguez recruits come on board, etc.) all point to the latter. The only one that doesn't is: "This is Michigan and I'm mad we lost."
The Parcells comment is nothing but a bullshit platitude. Do you really think the difference between our offense in 2008 and our offense this year is simply better coaching?
this year than in 2008 is a little better oline play and a sophomore dual threat QB. better comparison is between '09 and '10. IMO team didn't really improve a great deal. We shot it out w/ Indiana both years. LMAO Two wins had nothing to do w/ RR's coaching. Bullshit platitude? RR is what his record is, 14-22, at UM. Not f&*ing good enough.
Stay classy friend, stay classy.
So his record isn't what it said he was at West Virginia. When RR has players, he wins. When he has to start freshman and sophomores throughout the roster he loses. As would every other coach in the NCAA. It's all about the players.
won the Big East this year (and we beat them 30-10). Job's a lot harder in the B10.
One third of the season doesn't count because it doesn't suit the argument you want to make that Rodriguez deserves to get fired? Winning close games doesn't count as improvement (even if crappier versions of the same team blew us out two years in a row) unless the name of the team is impressive to you?
No one is happy that we haven't won more. But ignoring progress and diminishing the hole we were working out of simply because you wish we were better means you are being intentionally obtuse.
weak non conf teams (which ND won't be) and the B10 bottom feeders, the false improvement you claim will disappear and our ceiling will become apparent. we can't seem to beat good teams.
Rich Rodriguez could not have succeeded here. In fact, no coach could have succeeded here. No coach has ever been handed a unit with some gaping holes in it and turned it around by developing the talent he inherited and recruiting new talent to fill in the holes, such that it developed into a strong unit in his third year...
Actually, Rodriguez did exactly that with the offense. He started off with depth issues at virtually every position. But he turned it around quickly. We now are strong at virtually every position, with the possible exception of RB. It is an elite offense. On the other hand, the defense has deteriorated rapidly. Very rapidly. This is on Rodriguez. He failed to recruit well, develop talent, and keep his own recruits around at key positions. He also failed to implement a coherent and successful defensive scheme. He's gone through two failures at DC. He has demonstrated no ability to field anything resembling a decent defense since parting ways with Casteel. And as such, we just fielded perhaps the worst defense in school history, which meanth that whenever we played a team that could slow us down a little on offense, we've lost. I fail to see how anyone can absolve Rodriguez of responsibility for this.
Recruiting (in only two full classes):
D-Line: Two year starter and 4-star recruit Craig Roh, Ohio all-star game MVP Jibreel Black who contributed some as a true freshman, 4-star Quinton Washington, 4-star Richard Ash, signed 5-star Will Campbell but moved him to offense, 4-star Ken Wilkins, signed 4-star Lalota who transferred out, has a commitment from 4-star Brennen Beyer, plus a number of 3-star guys too numerous to mention
Linebacker: Not quite as star-studded, but signed 4-star Cam Gordon (team's 4th leading tackler and tied for team lead in interceptions as a RS Freshman), Bell, Hawthorne, Mike Jones (WHO?), Jake Ryan, Josh Furman, and has verbal commitments this year from Jones and Morgan with good potential to land Frost as well.
Defensive back: True freshman starter Courtney Avery, 4-star Cullen Christian, 4-star Marvin Robinson, freshman contributors/starters Vinopal, Johnson and Gordon, other assorted lesser rated recruits, has commitments from 4-star Blake Countess and three other promising DB's, signed Witty, Turner, Emilien and Dorsey (all but Witty highly rated) but things didn't work out with admissions, injury, or attitude.
I think he is recruiting just fine.
Development: Jonas Mouton made second team all conference as a senior. Brandon Graham made all-American as a senior and first round draft pick. Turned YAM into NFL draft pick Ryan Mundy. Turned much maligned Stevie Brown into NFL draft pick. Turned random LSA student Jordan Kovacs into the team's leader in solo tackles and TFL's as a sophomore.
Other than Obi Ezeh, I can't think of another player who failed to develop into a quality contributor by his senior season or at least reach his full potential (in the case of default starters like Banks and Rogers), and it is possible (IMHO) that Obi Ezeh just isn't that good a football player (as evidenced by his benching as a senior and attempted benching in favor of a freshman or a walk-on as a junior and his meh recruiting ranking).
If you can still look at the lack of talent in the junior/senior class on the defensive side of the ball and conclude that Rodriguez's coaching performance is the problem, so be it, but hopefully this demonstrates that I am sure as shit not putting my head in the sand but rather have actually evaluated the things he is capable of controlling.
to seeing what DB does. If he's as high on RR as you are, I'll support him. If not, I'll support the new coach.
If he's as high on RR as you are, I'll support him.
Ok, so if RR stays and goes 10-3 next season does that mean all your other posts arguing against him were wrong? You're confusing.
with DB's acumen and sources that he's better able to make an informed opinion than I am. Regardless of my personal opinion, if he thinks UM is better off w/ RR or somehow worse off if we let RR go, that's good enough for me. I beleive DB, as AD and former UM player, has UM's best interests at heart.
And do you honestly think that this team can make the leap to 10-3 next year? I would expect continued improvement or consistency on the O side of the ball, but imagine the D and ST will stay about the same.
It's tough to say what the D and ST will be if RR is retained. Especially if a new staff on D is brought in. Some teams are like night and day from one season to the next. I'm so emotionally drained from these last 3 years that it's like I don't care to try to predict what things will be, especially when there's so many uncertainties at this point.
If you put a gun to my head, I would say it's not out of the realm of possibilities to be 10-3 next year just because with college teams, especially ours being so young on both sides of the ball, though especially on D, and level of offense we'd have, there can be so much variance on level of play; case and point Sparty (though highly overrated IMO) and for most of the season Illinois' D.
I'm sure there are other better examples but those are just two that came off the top of my head and I'm pretty tired so my brain isn't functioning at optimal levels. I'm pretty sure RR is gone though so whatever, I'm just rambling at this point.
and Happy New Year. I hope we are good next year. I'm also drained after the past 3 years.
The problem I have with Rodriguez's defensive recruiting is simple. We have a total of 7 recruits from 2009 left on the roster. None of these recruits are corners or free safeties, two of our biggest problem areas. Considering that one of the biggest issues Rodriguez faced upon taking the job was defensive depth, particularly in the secondary, this is inexcusable. Now, it should be noted that he did recruit more than 7 defensive players in 2009, but there was forseeable attrition by that class which came back to bite us badly:
- Justin Turner allegedly had an attitude problem. This is something that you would hope his recruiter would pick up on.
- Adrian WItty failed to qualify academically. This is something that a coach should definitely be aware of when recruiting a position of need.
- Vladimir Emilien had a known injury history, meaning that he was also a risk.
On top of all of these, Rodriguez couldn't keep Warren from declaring for the Draft and then not even getting drafted. This one is arguably not his fault (in fact, that applies for all attrition), but at the same time, you need to keep some bodies at these positions and Warren was a big missed opportunity.
I wouldn't be mad about any of these if there were anything resembling adequate depth at their positions, but there wasn't. And Rodriguez knew that he was short bodies at these positions. He took steps to correct this in 2010, recruiting enough players s that we still had bodies at CB even if attrition did occur (which happened in the form of Demar Dorsey) but the damage was already done and we were forced to start true freshmen this year as a result. And we still have significant issues, as we have little in the form of depth behind Vinopal at FS.
Our primary justification for the problems with the 2009 defense was that the cupborad was left bare, particularly in the secondary. I accept this line of reasoning, but at the same time, I blame Rodriguez for failing to take adequate steps towards correcting this problem. There's a chance he just got unlucky, but when literally everything else is going wrong with the defense that you look to the coaches to correct (such as teaching the fundamentals, implementing schemes, etc.), I'm not much inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Now, with regard to player development, I will acknowledge that this is the least of Rodriguez's issues. My biggest problem was with Jay Hopson, who is now thankfully gone. However, it should be noted that Rodriguez hired Hopson, and thus is ultimately responsible for Hopson's failings. And this wasn't an isolated incident of a bad hire. Shafer didn't work out, I have questions about Dews considering how poorly our pass defense has performed, and Greg Robinson predictably failed, although the extent of his failure was mind-boggling. Getting back to the point, however, I'll concede that I was being harsh when I criticized the player development on defense alongside all the other issues.
Now, all that said, my ultimate feelings on Rodriguez with regards to the defense are simple. First of all, I don't believe that he had much to do with WVU's great defenses, as WVU keeps putting out great defenses with Casteel as DC, despite having Bill Stewart as head coach, coupled with the poor performance of our defenses these past three years. As such, I think that this means that it is critical for Rodriguez to hire good defensive coaches. He has repeatedly failed in this regard and there is little reason anymore to expect that he'll be successful when he tries to replace Robinson. As such, I'd rather take the risk of hiring a new coach.
Mike Jones is still here. He broke his leg against Notre Dame this season. That was probably Rich's fault, though.
You're reading way too much into what was nothing more than a dickheaded, snarky comment.
I do agree that ultimately everything falls (whether fairly or not) on the shoulders of the head coach.
What gaping holes are well documented on the defense in 08? I am not asking to make a point. I'd just like to know what they were?
I don't think your overall position has any merit. His job when taking over a 9 win team that went to a bowl every year for nearly 40 years, was to find ways to build off of the success and improve it going forward. 3 wins with blowouts by your rivals, 5 wins and more blowouts by your rivals, 7 wins and even worse yet against your rivals peppered in with near misses against an FBS school, Indiana, mediocre Illinois, and mediocre Notre Dame, just isn't progress enough.
Maybe the sabermetricians and recruiting gurus among us can find a way to prove that it is. But Michigan is about tangible results in the win column, not stats and hope. If not wins, at least it has to pass a reasonable eye ball test. In the third year, that is not too much to ask. Today was another very fair test to prove your argument that this direction is worth continuing. It blew up badly. There wasn't one fan on that field running plays or meddling in practice for the last 4 weeks. Same with the two weeks before Penn State.
I do admire the loyalty of Rich's hardened supporters on here. But they need to be mindful that their continued assertion that everyone who doesn't support him isn't that way out of ignorance. Your insolence toward the other fans that don't agree with your position is actually pretty insulting. Almost as insulting as the assertion that people who want change to a new direction took pleasure in what happend out there today.
Actually it was sad for all fans. Someone give us our program back. Please.
Sophomore Obi Ezeh. Pretty big hole in my book. The seeds for future problems like not having any safeties last year or this year having James Rogers as the only healthy upperclassmen in the entire secondary were already sewn at that time as well.
What is insulting is listening to your repeated griping combined with a complete lack of analysis followed by bitching when nobody takes you seriously. Anyone who was paying attention knew how dramatically different the 2008 Michigan roster was going to look compared to its predecessor after losing Long, Henne, Hart, Arrington, Crable, Manningham, etc., not to mention all the defensive studs who departed for the NFL and perennial Pro Bowl invitations a year earlier, not to mention guys like Boren and Mallett who left the program before Rodriguez ever coached a game. But rather than look at the totality of the situation and realize things had changed dramatically, you and a few other posters say things like "But we won 9 games the year before, WTF?"
When people who realize how bad we were the day Rodriguez coached his first game see progress that is clearly documented in the wins and losses you claim are so important, you dismiss that progress because "It is still unacceptable to only win 7 games at Michigan, and besides, I like beating really good teams." When people look at all the young players on the roster and foresee far better days ahead when gifted, already productive freshmen/sophomores turn into juniors/seniors you say "They played poorly in these games as freshmen/sophomores so they won't get better, but of course they would if some other coach I like comes in, and besides, there has been plenty of time for Rodriguez to make us awesome again because I said so and this other team did it and I don't have to bother looking at the particular circumstances of that occurence to know that means RR is screwing up."
Auburn also bought a quarterback.
I've sort of the thought the media hasn't done him too many favors, either. I mean, there's a lot that's gone wrong for RR, but few coaches are put on the hot seat by the media as much as he has, either. Unfortunately, that doesn't justify anything.
News flash, your fanaticism doesn't matter, but mine does.... just ask my parents, they tell me everything I do matters because I'm special.
Since Auburn is the example in this case, why not look at their upperclass leadership? Nick Fairley is the top DT in the country and is a senior. As much as we love Mike Martin (Jr.), he is not as highly thought of. Their senior kicker, Wes Bynum, must have been a factor in their close wins, especially the 17-14 win over Miss. St. Cam Newton is only a junior, but he did have some playing time at Florida and played in JC. So he's well ahead of Denard in terms of playing experience, and is a hell of a lot bigger.
And as experienced that team was, with top 10-15 talent AND an experienced kicker, they still needed some luck. Miss St, Clemson, South Carolina and Kentucky are not exactly a murderers row and they were lucky to win. And Alabama let them off the hook this year.
If you spend some time in Alabama and SEC country, you will know that his approval rating only goes as far as Cam Newton takes him. Meaning that once Cam is gone and they drop 4-5 games next year, the boo birds will be back out. Don't believe that he suddenly has immunity down there.