False Start Rules
So I think I decided the football gods were against us at one point in I think the second quarter (maybe early third). We've managed to stop Sparty short on 3rd and 10 at around the 30 yard line. But there's a flag for false start, the play was dead. Sparty proceeds to convert 3rd and 15.
Something I've always wondered about is this: If the defense jumps offside, the offense gets a "free play" - the play won't be blown dead unless the defenseless QB is about to get lit up. The offense then has the chance to take the penalty or the result of the play.
Why are the rules different on false starts? Assuming a play immediately follows the false start, shouldn't the defense get a "free play"? This seems particularly unfair, because many times a false start is the result of the D showing blitz and the O-line getting antsy (or because the offense is just totally confused). Blowing the play dead wrecks the surprise of the blitz and gives the offense a chance to regroup - which is exactly what happened today, blowing our chance for a critical stop.
October 9th, 2010 at 9:53 PM ^
I remember that play as well. I told myself, great, we stop them and they get another shot at the first down. Lo and behold, they convert. I agree with you. It only makes sense that the play continues and the defense can choose to accept the penalty or the result of the play. Then again, many teams may just kneel the ball if they know they had jumped offsides (to prevent turnovers, etc) rendering that whole process null and void.
October 9th, 2010 at 9:53 PM ^
It has to do with the timing of the penalty. Offsides doesn't become offsides until the ball is snapped, so it's a live ball penalty. False start occurs the instant of the foul, and thus kills the play, as it occurs before the snap.
October 9th, 2010 at 9:56 PM ^
October 9th, 2010 at 10:05 PM ^
I should probably have elaborated. I understand that that's the concept, but why, if the play immediately follows the false start infraction? Why isn't it a dead ball if the ball is snapped with anyone in the neutral zone? Meh, it would be tough to change, it just seems that offenses get really lucky with the rule sometimes, and it's frustrating as hell.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:10 PM ^
The problem is that the whistle is supposed to be blown and the play stops before the play actually gets a chance to go anywhere. Unfortunately that didn't happen this time for whatever reason.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:16 PM ^
Understood and acknowledged. I guess I'm less asking why and more advocating a rule change. Something like, if you false start and then snap (within say a second - some reasonable wiggle room as with delay of game), a flag is thrown, the play continues, and defense gets to take the penalty or the result of the play. If you false start and don't snap, a flag is thrown, the whistle is blown, you step back 5 yards.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:28 PM ^
Yeah, I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure it would work in practice. I think it would be too difficult to figure out if the play was dead or not.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:08 PM ^
i was pretty upset after that as well (i'm sure everyone was) confused that we weren't allowed to deny that penalty yet they were still allowed to play it. very annoying/ frusturating.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:11 PM ^
stayed still an extra second so that play would've counted. All rules are made to be broken/changed, but I think it's probably in the same category as encroachment, when the defensive player makes contact with the offensive player before the snap. That's another play that's blown dead before it can start.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:13 PM ^
It's a dead ball since a false start is a trigger for the defense to hit what could be an "unprepared" offensive player that is still waiting for the snap. They blow them all dead for consistancy. If it's the defense and the offending player isn't gonna get the QB, they don't blow it dead since defensive movement isn't a trigger for the offense.
Agree with your take above on that play being a huge play in the game. At the time it was 10-7 Michigan and MSU went on to make it 14-10 on that drive after converting the 3rd and 15.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:25 PM ^
Best argument I've heard for leaving the rule alone, so +1 to you. But then couldn't the same safety issue be used as an argument for blowing offsides dead immediately, even if no contact occurs? A offensive player could still get whacked early if the snap is made quickly to catch the offside. Heck, half the point of snap counts is to catch and hit the defense unprepared - an offensive lineman would have just as much time to react to an incoming hit as the D-line does on every play.
If I were making the rules, I wouldn't let the play go forward unless the ball was snapped immediately after the false start infraction (see my comment a little farther up) - meaning the offense would be "prepared". I guess I don't see the harm (or at least increase in harm) in allowing the play to continue if there's no contact.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:32 PM ^
if there's no contact, it shouldn't be a dead ball. Only exception would be for an illegal snap. What really has me frustrated about that play is that we (the fans) were doing our jobs at that point and got what we desired - a mistake by the other team. Absolutely hate that it backfired.
Shouldn't be that way.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:55 PM ^
...the fact that the play wasn't blown dead! Why, if it was a false start did they finish the play? It is truly frustrating because it was the pivotal moment in the game, IMHO.
They ended up seeing the defense we had called there, then managed to convert on a 3rd and 15 and go score. ARGH.
October 11th, 2010 at 11:06 PM ^
but the crowd drowned it out. If you watch the replay, you can see a handful of players stop, but the majority did not hear the whistle.
October 10th, 2010 at 11:05 AM ^
in allowing the play to continue is that any penalty the defense makes during the play will result in "offsetting penalties" and a repeat of the down. This gives the defense a free shot at the quarterback (or any other player for that matter) without consequence. Therefore, changing the rule would just be irresponsible.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:13 PM ^
I don't understand that either. Even more annoying is that this didn't seem to be a case of a bunch of guys hearing the whistle and stopping. Everyone seemed to be participating in the play.
Of course, this would have been moot if Talbott (I think) hadn't run himself out of position after Martin caught the next pass well short of the sticks. I believe we were up 10-7 at the time and then they went on to score. Big turn of events.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:28 PM ^
Now that we've thoroughly discussed the rules, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that noticed that play. The "what ifs" of that moment keeps dancing around my head like crazy...
October 9th, 2010 at 10:33 PM ^
Later that same possession, Cousins fumbled the snap. It looked to me live like one of our D-linemen pounced on it, but the official quickly ruled that State had recovered (not sure how he was able to see it), and it was never reviewed. If we had gotten that turnover, we could have gone up two scores.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:55 PM ^
I would have liked to seen more replays of this one - the one I saw looked like our guy was on the ball. Seemed like more attention should have been given to this play.
October 10th, 2010 at 1:08 AM ^
In which case, we should have called a time out, or challenged. We certainly had the first shot at it. I'm guessing that it squirted out of whichever MIch players possession. Once it goes into a big pile like that, I'm not sure that anything can be overturned, because you can't see what's going on at the bottom.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:38 PM ^
Call it poor officiating, they refs need to aggressively blow the play dead when that happens rather than letting the play ‘play out’ then saying never mind.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:56 PM ^
And it isn't like it is a choice... It is a dead ball foul. Period. There was no choice for the officials to make.
October 10th, 2010 at 10:29 AM ^
It also seemed like on the two facemask penalties against us that the flags were being thrown way late, as if the refs were listening to MSU players saying "did you see that, ref?". Maybe it was just the ESPN crew, but there was no yello "flag" indicators on the screen prior to those penalties being called.
October 9th, 2010 at 10:57 PM ^
Where the hell was the whistle?!? Nobody heard it. You have to stop the play, or not call the penalty. Not see how the play goes then call it.
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<br>Though I don't think officiating was anything close to the reason we lost. Other than all the holding that now seems legal in college football, it might have been one of the better officiated games this season (sadly).
October 10th, 2010 at 1:08 AM ^
This was huge. Agree with the comment below. They should have been running in whistles blazing and arms waving instead of letting the play just go on then calling it back. If they are going to call this they have to be more assertive - poor officiating.
October 9th, 2010 at 11:44 PM ^
because 3rd and 15 against our defense is like 3rd and 2 against most others. There is almost no yardage which makes me feel safe that the opposition won't convert. 3rd and 45 anyone?
October 10th, 2010 at 12:05 AM ^
It has to do with the timing of the penalty. Offsides doesn't become offsides until the ball is snapped, so it's a live ball penalty. False start occurs the instant of the foul, and thus kills the play, as it occurs before the snap.
This. A false start is a dead ball foul. Offsides is a live-ball foul. It's that simple. The extra conversation going on in this thread is completely unrealistic. It's not a penalty to be in an offside position - otherwise everytime you subbed there'd be a penalty. It doesn't become a penalty until the ball is snapped - thus live ball penalty.
False start is a dead ball. It should have been killed immediately. Saying "we should let false starts go if the snap occurs immediately afterwards" is adding in another grey area for officials to judge that is completely unneccessary.
October 10th, 2010 at 11:40 AM ^
I understand all that, but given that they completely failed to whistle the play dead (I don't think any of the 22 players on the field stopped), maybe they should have just covered their butts after and said "There was no foul on the play."
Of course, that doesn't excuse us for giving up a 3rd and 15.
October 10th, 2010 at 11:45 AM ^
I'd have to see it again. If he threw the flag late and players just didn't recognize it in time, you can't really pick up that flag.
He should have came in and whistled it dead no matter how late he called it. That's the mistake. If we would have stopped them on 3rd and 15 nobody would be talking about this at all.