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Expansion was inevitable and is more than football

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November 19th, 2012 at 5:54 PM
#1
mi93
Joined: 11/15/2008
MGoPoints: 393
Expansion was inevitable and is more than football

Apologies for the new thread, but I wanted thoughts on this and know it would have been lost in the mix.

Does the expansion water down football?  You bet.  Does it reek of a market/money grab?  Uh-huh, but a for-real playoff forced that hand and this is another pre-emptive strike.  Four teams is already assured and getting to 8 requires bigger conferences to create defacto early rounds.  And the conference will likely now add Men's and Women's Lacrosse to make a total of 28 Big Teh(14)n sports with content that the East coast will enjoy.

This is also about academic standards - believe it or not.  The conference still holds that as criteria and we just added two research universities - the big dogs in their states - that are members of the American Association of Universities.  Only Nebraska is not a member (and only because the AAU chose to no longer recognize their medical center as a research entity for the NU-L campus).

Those standards are why ND will NEVER be asked to join the Big Ten.  They are not a respected research university - just a cash demanding whore.  When the conference moves to 16 teams, expect Missouri, Pittsburgh, Iowa State, Kansas and Virginia (regardless of recent moves by some of them) on the short list.  And unless Syracuse can demonstrate a Nebraska-like research bounty, they won't be part of the conversation.

Delany's madman visions aside, the presiden't have final say, and they're not all Gordon Gee.

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November 19th, 2012 at 5:55 PM | super (Score:4 Normal)
BlueinLansing
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Joined: 09/01/2009
MGoPoints: 4191

just super

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November 19th, 2012 at 5:56 PM | LOL (Score:1 Normal)
KC Wolve
Joined: 10/09/2010
MGoPoints: 632

When people mention academics when it comes to realignment I LOL a lot.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:00 PM | I LOL when (Score:5 Normal)
Bodogblog
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Joined: 06/08/2010
MGoPoints: 7577

people mention 26 other sports besides Football and Basketball that no one anywhere gives a fuck about.

What I really hate is that this all distracts from the true purpose of this week: BEAT OHIO.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:06 PM | Yep (Score:2 Normal)
KC Wolve
Joined: 10/09/2010
MGoPoints: 632

"When deciding on who to join our conference we were really looking for schools with high academic standards and good basketball teams. "



Not one person ever

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:14 PM | Despite what anyone says, there is nothing but (Score:1)
wolverine1987
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Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 2928

football, all orther considerations are either seconday or public relations.

"Everyone gets dumped Gabe. Let me give you some advice: a little coverup on your Adams Apple will make it appear smaller. Which will make you appear less like a transvestite." 

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November 19th, 2012 at 11:13 PM | Not so.  Football now comes (Score:2)
MaizeAndBlueWahoo
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Joined: 07/02/2008
MGoPoints: 11802

Not so.  Football now comes second to market size.

"We've beaten Michigan the last four years.  So where's the threat?"

- Mark Dantonio

Blogging the Virginia Cavaliers at http://fromoldvirginia.blogspot.com/<

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:02 PM | I mean the acc added pitt and (Score:2 Normal)
ak47
Joined: 05/05/2011
MGoPoints: 597

I mean the acc added pitt and syracuse of wvu because the presidents would have never allowed wvu to join due to academics, they aren't the driving force but they play a role.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:13 PM | You honestly don't think the (Score:3 Normal)
wildbackdunesman
Joined: 07/16/2008
MGoPoints: 2583

You honestly don't think the over $8 Billion (and climbing) in CIC academic research money plays at least a tiny part of it?

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November 19th, 2012 at 7:00 PM | Yes or No (Score:1)
KC Wolve
Joined: 10/09/2010
MGoPoints: 632

Whichever answer means that academics has absolutely no part of it. It is tv money and being afraid of being left out of the tv money in the future. Nothing more, nothing less.

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November 19th, 2012 at 5:58 PM | Yes the academics at Rutgers (Score:5 Funny)
cheesheadwolverine
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Joined: 10/25/2008
MGoPoints: 2137

Yes the academics at Rutgers are known to be head and shoulders above those at Notre Dame

"I just hope Tressel doesn't fire me"

-Gordon Gee

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:19 PM | The BigTen's cup of tea is (Score:5 Normal)
wildbackdunesman
Joined: 07/16/2008
MGoPoints: 2583

The BigTen's cup of tea is the CIC -- academic research.

 

Academic Research Spending by school per year:

Michigan 1.27 Billion

Rutgers 0.4 Billion

Notre Dame 0.1 Billion

 

 

Yes, Notre Dame has great undergrad programs, but they are a lightweight in research.

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November 19th, 2012 at 9:32 PM | We are talking about Graduate (Score:2)
wildbackdunesman
Joined: 07/16/2008
MGoPoints: 2583

We are talking about Graduate level research.  Michigan per grad student spends more than double Notre Dame on research.  Or 12 times as much total.

Notre Dame is a great school, they just are weak at research.  That is why Notre Dame's faculty joined the BigTen...to get better...at post graduate academics.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:31 PM | Undergrad?  Of course (Score:4 Insightful)
gopoohgo
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Joined: 09/12/2011
MGoPoints: 1233

Undergrad?  Of course not.

Grad schools & research dollars?  

http://mup.asu.edu/research2011.pdf

Federal funding excluding medical centers from 2009, (fair in that since ND doesn't have a medical center, it would be even further behind).

Rutgers is in tier 3 (51-75).  ND is in tier 6 (126-150).

ND is a liberal arts school with good sports.  The rest of the B1G & CIC have a significant graduate research mission, none of which ND has.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:00 PM | Those standards are why ND (Score:4 Normal)
willywill9
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Joined: 09/22/2008
MGoPoints: 11256

Those standards are why ND will NEVER be asked to join the Big Ten.  They are not a respected research university - just a cash demanding whore.

Yeah okay.  Keep telling yourself that if ND wanted to be a part of the B1G, that we'd be adding Rutgers and Maryland right now. 

Touchdown Michigan!

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:04 PM | ND was invited to join in 1999, and was a target in '94. (Score:2 Insightful)
justingoblue
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Joined: 11/16/2010
MGoPoints: 10859

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/06/sports/college-football-just-say-no-no...

Go Blue!

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:22 PM | Their faculty approved of (Score:4 Normal)
wildbackdunesman
Joined: 07/16/2008
MGoPoints: 2583

Their faculty approved of Notre Dame joining the BigTen so they could join the CIC and share in on the Billions of research dollars we have combined.  Too bad ND's football pride beat out graduate academic benefits.

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November 19th, 2012 at 5:59 PM | You really can't have too (Score:3 Normal)
dothepose
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Joined: 12/30/2008
MGoPoints: 4254

You really can't have too many expansion threads, otherwise we would have to talk about the upcoming game this Saturday.

You know, Dude, I myself dabbled in pacifism once. Not in 'Nam of course.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:00 PM | yes (Score:2)
TrppWlbrnID
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Joined: 10/29/2009
MGoPoints: 7875

people all across New Jersey and NoVa will be turning their cable tuners to BTN to bask in the glow of reserach.

bad news, the only research for you on there is how to remedy a queso emergency and it starts with running into a beauty shop.

2013 resolution - make it onto the 2014 favorite MGoPosters post, not ironically
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November 19th, 2012 at 6:39 PM | They don't have to watch a (Score:1)
gopoohgo
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Joined: 09/12/2011
MGoPoints: 1233

They don't have to watch a single game for the BigTen network to make more money, especially if Fox really does bundle YES (Yankees) network together with the B1G Network.

All the B1G has to do is establish that WITH the addition of Rutgers/Maryland to the rest of the alumni in the respective areas, it deserves a larger carrier fee/month.  

From a football perspective this isn't great: but for all the people bitching about this, what was the expansion alternative?  Especially once ND (fu*ck them, always) added onto the ACC for everything else besides football, there aren't other schools that fit the profile (land grant, AAU, new markets) unless the ACC were to fall apart.

From a business perspective, this was necessary.  If the ACC were to expand, they would eat  Rutgers, and Penn State would look awfully tempting.  Now, we start to destabilize the ACC, shore up Penn State, and take away the ACC's obvious replacement.  If they try to swap Maryland with UConn, the football continengent of the ACC (FSU, Clemson, Miami) get's even more pissed, and starts flirting more with the Big 12.

I really think Delaney is shooting for UVA & UNC as 15, 16 when the expansion wheel stop turning...and neither would leave the ACC until it is crumbling.  VaTech would goto the B12 to partner with WVU.  NCState to the SEC to get them to 15.  Once those two schools are safely in a BCS supergroup, UVA and UNC would be free to choose.

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November 19th, 2012 at 7:12 PM | lol at your mgopoints, by the way (Score:3 Normal)
TrppWlbrnID
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Joined: 10/29/2009
MGoPoints: 7875

a few things:

1) the big ten conference is not a corporation, and while it needs to be proactive to create the best climate for its members, it also is one of the pillars of college football. college football would not move on to something like playoffs or whatever without the inclusion of the big ten. i would not have minded if the conference had chosen to use some of its might to stay above the fray, rather than dilute the brand. what is the point of being Goliath if the conference has the power to determine its own amibtions, if that is to get more tvs than another guy by changing the fundamental nature of what an althetic conference is, then i guess that is what it is.

2) i think it is highly unlikely that state politics in Virginia or North Carolina will allow those state's football programs to separate, since that is what brought them together in the first place.

3) personally, i am ashamed of the big ten with this. every system that college football has ever had or will ever have is imperfect, that is just the nature of sports. this whole idea that there is some simple tournament solution that will make everyone happy is ridiculous. they are chasing piles of cash and when you have your piles of cash, then what? what happens when you have monetized every aspect of your operation? the conference, whatever that is anymore, is not going to say, we have our pile of cash, let's sit pat. they are going to find new piles and most of those piles are in our pockets. and the one thing that i even care about any of this for, the experience of going to a game with my family and singing as loud as a i can when things go well and crying as hard as a can when they don't has not benefitted from this in the least.

4) i am not a nascar fan, but this whole college football goldrush for marketing seems to reek of what happened to them. there is a niche sport, quaint, cozy, well loved by milions of dedicated fans - something that CEOs consider under-utilized. so they get their hands into it, try to broaden the appeal, try to make the championship more exciting, polish it up with cell phones instead of cigarettes, build huge facilities around the country with luxury boxes and charge insane new psls and ticket prices. after that balloon is puffed up and the casual fans wander to the next casual thing, and tv ratings fall apart and advertisers look elsewhere, the people left holding the bag are the ones that were there in the beginning, although now they are paying three times as much for a worse product. this is what this is and i pity the people who will never know the joy of piling into the car to drive to west lafayette for a simple fall day just because you can and i regret that i may never be able to do that again.

2013 resolution - make it onto the 2014 favorite MGoPosters post, not ironically
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November 19th, 2012 at 7:39 PM | Thanks re; the mgopoints. (Score:4 Normal)
gopoohgo
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Joined: 09/12/2011
MGoPoints: 1233

Thanks re; the mgopoints.  Got Bolivia'd on election night, I think.

1) Like it or not, it has become a business.  Like banking in the 1990s, when merger-mania hit the financial industry, creating giants such as Citi and JPMorganChase.  Mergers/expansion increased depositor size, providing funding for both more acquisitions, in addition to investment opportunities.

Citi has had a pretty piss-poor return.  JPM is the industry titan by far in the banking sector.  Expansion for expansion's sake is a stupid idea; Delaney at least has shown in the past some vision (PSU and Nebraska were great gets, and the B1G network was brilliant, Legends/Leaders, logo were/are awful) so I'm willing to believe there is some sort of master plan in his muppet-like head.

2) From reading UNC/UVa boards last night, the NC and Va legislatures are more worried that NCState and VaTech aren't frozen out of a BCS conference, and are willing to dangle state funding as a sword of Damocles over the flagship schools as leverage.  If NCState and VaTech were to find homes in the Big12 and SEC, i think the legislatures would be happy to let UVa and UNC find their own way.

3/4) It sounds cliche, but think of the airline industry.  Once upon a time, you had PanAm serving 5 star dinners with impeccably dressed stewardesses and passengers in formal evening wear.  Now you have slobs like me wearing cargo shorts and sandals.

Heck back when I was an undergrad (93-7), the student section was packed, even for the sacrificial lamb games.  Now, not so much.  Times change.  The 60 Minutes interview was a little alarming; Brandon views the fans as a revenue stream, trying various ways to expand both branding and ensuring generational loyalty; lots of corporate speak.

Ultimately, I think the B1G had to expand or be left in the dust....

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November 19th, 2012 at 7:22 PM | What about Duke? (Score:1)
pessiMICHtic
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Joined: 10/24/2012
MGoPoints: 440

What about Duke?

3-3-5 til the day I die y'all

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:01 PM | I don't buy that expansion (Score:5 Normal)
Lionsfan
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Joined: 06/03/2011
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I don't buy that expansion was inevitable. Maybe way down the line, but it seemed like things had settled down for the most part, and then we lit everything on fire again.

If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?

StraightDave owes me a steak dinner

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:08 PM | Fair point (Score:2)
mi93
Joined: 11/15/2008
MGoPoints: 393

And it will be interesting to see what other dominos fall, if any.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:01 PM | We've basically begged ND to (Score:2)
FreeKarl
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Joined: 11/16/2012
MGoPoints: 195

We've basically begged ND to join and we would take them in a second if they wanted in. 

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:02 PM | ND is a cash demanding whore, (Score:2 Normal)
Trebor
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Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 1003

ND is a cash demanding whore, no doubt. They'd also be a much better addition than Maryland or Rutgers. Also better additions than Maryland and Rutgers: pretty much anyone else in the ACC.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:02 PM | Expansion does not bother me. (Score:5 Normal)
FreddieMercuryHayes
Joined: 12/29/2010
MGoPoints: 4884

Expansion does not bother me. Absolutely screwing my school with divisional alignments that give it hardest road possible to the championship while simultaneously making it easy for our rivals infuriates me.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:04 PM | Sorry, but what gets me is (Score:5 Normal)
MGoDC
Joined: 03/21/2010
MGoPoints: 2303

Sorry, but what gets me is that Maryland and Rutgers bring nothing to the table academically. They are fine, not a drag, but they arent worth bringing it for academic reasons given their terrible sports.

I'd MUCH rather have a place like UVA that has mediocre sports but would definitely increase the academic prestige of the conference. If a school isn't at least in the top-5 of the conference academically it is not worth sacrificing sports.

Either be a UVA or Northwestern academically or be a Nebraska/Ohio State athletically. Maryland and Rutgers bring nothing to the table besides the fiction that DC or NYC will suddenly care about those programs.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:07 PM | Rutgers would be 12th in the (Score:2 Normal)
justingoblue
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Joined: 11/16/2010
MGoPoints: 10859

Rutgers would be 12th in the current CIC in terms of research dollars brought in. I don't have the data for Maryland, but I'd guess they're someplace between where UVa would be (12th) and UNC (7th).

Go Blue!

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:23 PM | Right, but the key difference (Score:3 Normal)
MGoDC
Joined: 03/21/2010
MGoPoints: 2303

Right, but the key difference is that UVA and UNC are top notch undergrad schools.

You haven't listed a single thing Rutgers/Maryland bring.

Equal or less research dollars brought in.

Worse sports.

MUCH WORSE undergrad reputation.

Nothing except the fiction that people in NYC care about Rutgers or DC (check my login name) care about Maryland.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:29 PM | I must not have been too clear... (Score:1)
justingoblue
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Joined: 11/16/2010
MGoPoints: 10859

I agree with your first post and was looking to piggyback a bit on it.

Go Blue!

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:06 PM | How does these two school's (Score:2)
chitownblue2
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Joined: 06/03/2009
MGoPoints: 7060

How does these two school's AAU membership make expansion inevitable?

wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:11 PM | Apologies (Score:2)
mi93
Joined: 11/15/2008
MGoPoints: 393

Point was football playoffs make further expansion inevitable.  AAU membership makes MD and SUNJ acceptable candidates - as well as the other schools (UVA, Pitt, ISU, KU, Mizzou).

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:13 PM | What were you thinking when (Score:2)
FreeKarl
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Joined: 11/16/2012
MGoPoints: 195

What were you thinking when you coined the phrase "Nebraska-like research bounty"?

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:33 PM | Somewhat tongue in cheek... (Score:2)
mi93
Joined: 11/15/2008
MGoPoints: 393

...but I believe they get a considerable amount of Federal funds for agricultural research (no longer counted by the AAU).  I don't know enough about the Orange to know if they have a similar Federally funded research program that led to their AAU departure.

Despite being voted out of the AAU, the Big Ten still approved NU for admission, likely because aside from football, there's synergy with other B10 universities in that research space (via the CIC).

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:15 PM | I think that we still aren't (Score:1 Normal)
Wolverine Devotee
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Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: -9994437

I think that we still aren't done here. I still have a gut feeling we will see UNC and duke. Laugh if you want at duke football, but they are bowl eligible for the first time in awhile.



And need I say more about the basketball history between Michigan & those 2 schools? I smell a Fab Five legacy uniform game against them both. Dave Brandon is salivating at that idea. Bald heads mandatory.

When the ADept sells special jerseys and gear, you'll see my picture next to the targeted customer crowd. A sheep.....but a Blue one.....

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:33 PM | Fuck this shit.  First off, (Score:3 Normal)
CRex
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Joined: 09/28/2009
MGoPoints: 8727

Fuck this shit.  

First off, these fanbases do not give us either city.  You want NYC, you get major programs whose alums get jobs in Manhattan.  Then you have current B1G grads + new guys all screaming for the BTN Network.  That gets you the NYC TV market.  

Secondly, neither state has that large of a Congressional footprint.  In terms of access to Congressmen (to ask for sweet federal research funding) you don't get that much.  We would have been better going with say 'Cuse and at least get the ear of some NYC folk.

Thirdly, academics.  Hooray two middle of the pack public schools who don't fit the land grand culture.  Big fucking deal.  

Had we come up with say UVa and 'Cuse this would have been acceptable in terms of academic and political gains.  However all we did was add mediocrity to the conference, meh.  Fuck Delany and fuck the new additions.  

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:36 PM | Regarding TV, I think the (Score:3 Normal)
chitownblue2
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Joined: 06/03/2009
MGoPoints: 7060

Regarding TV, I think the point is this:

Rutgers brings NYC's market into the B10 footprint, which means that the BTN will improve it's chances of getting cable carriage fees from the NY market - which is immense.

It doesn't matter that nobody will turn the BTN on - BTN will still be getting $ for the cable companies including the channel in their basic package.

wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog

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November 19th, 2012 at 7:12 PM | You realize that the cable (Score:1)
UMRecruitingFannatic
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Joined: 11/12/2012
MGoPoints: 126

You realize that the cable companies first have to agree to pick up BTN, correct?  We're basing this entire transaction on whether there are enough Rutgers fans (haha, I know already a longshot) living in NYC/NJ who are willing to lobby/change cable providers to watch maybe six Rutgers games a year, and those are the lesser Rutgers-Indiana games! 

Rutgers and Maryland: NOT WELCOME

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November 19th, 2012 at 8:51 PM | The NYC market is more than just Rutgers (Score:5 Normal)
dayooper63
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 527

Rutgers alone won't do it.  A combo of Rutgers (still the biggest college draw in the NYC Market) along with PSU, Michigan, and OSU just might.  Michigan, PSU, and OSU have the largest fan bases in college football and one of the largest in NYC (according to commoncensus sports profile project).  What does that mean?  It means that there are close to 1,000,000 B10 fans in the metro NYC area.  That may not seem a lot, but that may just be enough to get the BTN on the basic package.  The metro NYC area has 20 million people.  At 50 cents a pop, that's quite a nice chunk of change.  

As for Maryland, they might bring in DC and Baltimore.  There are many who believe they will.  Who knows? 

Tradition is something you can't bottle.  But it is there to sustain you when you need it most.  I've called upon it time and time again.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:35 PM | You suggested Iowa State, You (Score:4 Normal)
ShockFX
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Joined: 07/16/2008
MGoPoints: 3958

You suggested Iowa State, You have less than zero credibility or critical thinking skills.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:45 PM | Also some there are some (Score:2)
FreeKarl
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Joined: 11/16/2012
MGoPoints: 195

Also some there are some glaring omissions making the ISU suggestion even worse. 

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November 20th, 2012 at 12:30 PM | ISU... (Score:2)
mi93
Joined: 11/15/2008
MGoPoints: 393

Fits the geographic and academic profile.  Agreed they don't add a major market or are better choices than the others, but the list of schools I named were only focused on the geographic and academic profiles.  If by glaring omissions you're including schools in NC, GA or other non-contiguous states, those by Delaney's admission are not in the running.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:42 PM | Jim Delaney, you just coined (Score:2 Normal)
Michigan Arrogance
Michigan Arrogance's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 4287

Jim Delaney, you just coined the phrase,

 

"subtraction by addition"

 

well done, sir. well done

Harvard: The MICHIGAN of the East

We're not arrogant, we're just better.

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:48 PM | PAC, Big12, SEC, and BIG will be the last four standing (Score:0 Overrated)
Zok
Joined: 03/24/2009
MGoPoints: 131

Delany and company know this and are just making sure UM has the NE locked down. One of the ESPN writers said it best when he said the B1G didn't want to be flanked and basically cemented itself as the midwest and east coast conference from now on. Not a bad move IMO. WIth its recruiting base and the B1G funds, Rutgers will pass Minny, Iowa, NW, ILL, and IU in football prety quickly IMO. They already recruit OK as it is. By OK I mean better than all those teams I listed. and then Maryland has the Under-Armour connection which is more than any of the above schools can claim.

The B1G is also positioning itself to to pick up another ACC piece (UNC/UVA) and probably holding out for one other marque name when the crap really starts hitting the fan.

SEC will probably be able to scoop up FSU and/or Clemson to round out there conference. I imagine the rest of the ACC will just be screwed.

 

 

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November 19th, 2012 at 6:48 PM | I actually am OK with (Score:1)
Swang on These
Joined: 01/25/2012
MGoPoints: 176

I actually am OK with Maryland. They have a very good fan base (although mainly for basketball at this point) that I think will be excited by the change and rally around the football team more. The Rutgers move on the other hand is just shit, pure shit.

I apologize about the dress code, sir, but my next party is a hayride

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November 19th, 2012 at 7:03 PM | Okay, fine. Maryland can (Score:1)
ryebreadboy
ryebreadboy's picture
Joined: 12/02/2010
MGoPoints: 1786

Okay, fine. Maryland can join, but only if they lose the Uniformz.

Denard has spent the offseason working really hard and smiling at people.

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November 19th, 2012 at 7:12 PM | where does Georgia Tech rank (Score:1)
AVPBCI
AVPBCI's picture
Joined: 11/08/2011
MGoPoints: 346

where does Georgia Tech rank in the CIC and AAU ?

Also Boston College

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November 19th, 2012 at 7:33 PM | Edited after getting the data... (Score:2 Normal)
justingoblue
justingoblue's picture
Joined: 11/16/2010
MGoPoints: 10859

BC is a small, private school without much research presence, they spend less than $40,000,000 each year on research. For comparison, the Big Ten average is about $465,000,000. They would place last in the CIC in terms of dollars spent (ND also would finish 14th [current 12 + Chicago + ND or BC]).

Georgia Tech would rank 6th in the current CIC, Duke 3rd and Pitt and UNC both 7th. Maryland will be 9th.

 

Go Blue!

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November 19th, 2012 at 8:54 PM | Something makes me think that (Score:2)
dayooper63
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 527

Something makes me think that Atlanta, the second largest college football market, is high on Delaney's list.  GTU

Tradition is something you can't bottle.  But it is there to sustain you when you need it most.  I've called upon it time and time again.

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