I'm pretty good friends with quite a few of our players and many of them seem to have little faith in Hoke, and to be honest, I never have seen much in the way of reverance for the man on their part, especially after the Nebraska loss. Just my observation. I'll just sprinkle that little nugget into you guys' debate. Please continue
Support MGoBlog: buy stuff at Amazon
(ESPN RUMOR) Potential Coaching Moves
November 24th, 2013 at 8:57 PM
#1202
Lost Faith/ Dangerous ground?
November 24th, 2013 at 9:01 PM
#1203
Finally some realism. Granted
Finally some realism. Granted I'm not an insider but what has Hoke done to make us think any of his players have faith in him? I'm clearly in the minority here but I think Brandon knows this and will can Hoke after this weekends loss. We gotta do something. Dantonio and Meyer are the class of the big ten. We are currently a joke.
November 25th, 2013 at 3:25 PM
#1204
Yeah
Yeah, you go ahead and sprinkle those unsubstantiated rumors. You're just another anonymous poster on a message board with no credibility.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:58 PM
#1205
11-2 w/Rich Rod's players
RR players like Junior Hemmingway, Mary Huyge, Kevin Koger, Daryl Stonum, Ryan Van Bergan, Mike Nartin, David Molk, Kenny Demens, Troy Woolfolk...hell, even Will Heininger did OK.
Yes, a lot of key guys were from Rich, no doubt. But a lot were recruited by Lloyd, too.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:04 PM
#1206
Do you really think RR would
Do you really think RR would have gone 11-2 with that team? I did and do like him, but I don't think the answer is yes.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:26 PM
#1207
Keep it real...RR was set up
Keep it real...RR was set up to fail from the jump. Granted he was stubborn and didn't adjust to the players he had here, but Carr was completely unsupportive and darn near sabotaged him. That being said, RR statred from the ground up. Hoke contrarily came in to a upperclassmen laden team that simply need to defensive coaching. That was RR's team AND his players. Lastly, you think Hoke could beat Oregon this year? RR did...
November 24th, 2013 at 10:42 PM
#1208
Yes, Coach Rod coached
Yes, Coach Rod coached Arizona to a win over Oregon. Good for them. Great for him. He would not have led Michigan to a win over Oregon. Lloyd, the boogeyman, the Easter bunny, the alums, the Illuminati, and the Mafia would have teamed up to sabotage him.
November 24th, 2013 at 7:56 PM
#1209
Reasons for a 4th year
Legitimate: 1)he has a better record than RR 2) his recruiting is still strong 3) changing coaches every three years hurts the program and should be avoided if possible
Not legitimate but still a factor: he is a Michigan man who's approach to the game fits the way many feel Michigan should play football. Most of those with power in the program fall into this camp which also helps his cause
November 24th, 2013 at 8:17 PM
#1210
This Michigan man thing is so
This Michigan man thing is so overrated. Just get a coach who has a clue and wins. People take that Michigan man thing out of context--Bo meant it to say that only a coach who is committed to Michigan will coach us. THATS a MICHIGAN MAN! We don't have to have a coach who has Michigan roots or ties.
I like Hoke--great guy. But I have absolutely NO faith in his abilities. The proff right now is in the pudding, and quite frankly the pudding is no good right now.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:49 PM
#1211
Firing a guy after year three is a huge mistake.
I think you have to wait a year or two as frustrating as that seems now.
November 24th, 2013 at 10:47 PM
#1212
Offensive pudding tastes like
Offensive pudding tastes like shit.
The defensive ice cream is good. Special teams flan is good. Recruiting mousse is excellent. Clean program tiramisu is good. Hoke is a good coach/pastry chef. He's just got some shitty pudding.
November 24th, 2013 at 10:39 PM
#1213
Wins. And. Losses.
Wins. And. Losses.
November 25th, 2013 at 5:13 AM
#1214
Only chance is if
OSU can lay a 70 spot on us. I'm thinking the offense will be held to 3 FGs!
November 24th, 2013 at 7:30 PM
#1215
The man knows his holidays.
November 24th, 2013 at 7:51 PM
#1216
He's my favorite coach of all
He's my favorite coach of all time, regardless of all the shady infractions. He would keep me endlessly entertained and that's what's important.
November 24th, 2013 at 7:31 PM
#1217
As A Note....
I took this down initially because I was afraid of another repeat of about 20 other threads, but it seems innocous enough. Many apologies to the OP.
I've said before that this AD and this staff would make strategic changes before they made wholesale ones - that just seems to be how they would operate if anything happened. It is pretty much a foregone conclusion that Hoke is the head coach next year, so the lot calling for his head can be quiet at this point - the same applies to the defensive staff too, I would think. On the other side of the ball, it seems like the picture may be more murky but obviously no one knows for certain.
November 24th, 2013 at 7:37 PM
#1218
I tend to agree and consider
I tend to agree and consider this the coordinator/assistant year, and next year will be the grand reckoning for Hoke.
That being said, if this week ends up a total dumpster fire all the way around, something really embarrassing, a total regression to the tune of complete disaster on both sides of the ball... If morale seems low, the stadium revolts, donors are openly pissed... Who knows? What would it take for DB's hand to be completely forced?
The only thing I hope is that if a decision needs to be made, we don't get a replay of the last time. Don't wait until the bowl game. Don't leave this team in the lurch, don't make this a speculative story for all of December going into the crappy bowl game, give everyone a chance to pick up a new job if they're left in that position, etc.
November 24th, 2013 at 7:52 PM
#1219
It could depend on other coaches, etc right?
I'm sure most people here saw the thing about John Harbaugh (and I imagine ESPN probably started snooping around the idea after it blew up on Twitter). As unlikely as it is, if he did want to leave the NFL (the Ravens are in last place, his Super Bowl team has been dismantled, or at least gutted, he's proven himself a winner, etc) and he made it known that he was available, isn't it difficult to think Brandon wouldn't jump at the chance?
Of course, it's all speculative and highly unlikely. But, Brandon's not dumb. He knows that if he fires Hoke he needs to replace him with a huge name. That goes for next year as well (when we probably go 8-4 again).
November 24th, 2013 at 7:59 PM
#1220
Wouldn't it be considered a
Wouldn't it be considered a step down and an admission of failure by such a young coach to go from a Super Bowl team to a college team? Wouldn't he want to bring his current team back to where it was last season before he would head to college?
November 24th, 2013 at 8:30 PM
#1221
Both Saban and Carroll have
Both Saban and Carroll have stepped down from NFL jobs. They both found success and the college level. Carroll is doing well in Seattle. John Harbaugh has already won a super bowl so if he were to want a college job I don't think it should be seen as a step backwards--maybe he just wants something different.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:07 PM
#1222
Weren't they both in Rick
Weren't they both in Rick Pitino situations, where they went to the pros and didn't do that well?
November 24th, 2013 at 10:39 PM
#1223
Life is much easier as a college coach
He's already proven himself a champion. Could be a lifestyle choice. He grew up in Ann Arbor.
November 25th, 2013 at 2:16 AM
#1224
I disagree. College coaches
I disagree. College coaches are also GMs. Recruiting, etc. And the hours they put in on actual football is the same. And fans are just as stupid in both sports.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:10 PM
#1225
As A Rule...
That rumor began on Chatsports, and as a rule, -1,000,000% credibility is given to anything which originates on Chatsports. It may very well be the case that the inspiration for this thread has zero legs, but ESPN is not on the list of persona non grata, if you will.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:24 PM
#1226
+2 humorous
For -1m% credibility quote.
November 24th, 2013 at 10:37 PM
#1227
Ah, Ok
I wasn't aware that was where the high school kid writes.
November 25th, 2013 at 5:20 AM
#1228
I don't think they're rumors
John actually contacted DB about the job! May be he misses Mattison?
The only way Hoke may save his job is to do the impossible. Beat OSU!
November 24th, 2013 at 7:35 PM
#1229
Who would want an old Les
Who would want an old Les Miles who is going to retire relatively soon? That would be an incredibly stupid hire.
November 24th, 2013 at 7:39 PM
#1230
Miles just turned 60 two
Miles just turned 60 two weeks ago. Thinking very hypothetically, if he could put in five or six really solid years at Michigan, get an obvious successor in place, get some stability going, and retire well before he's 70, it's not a terribly far-fetched idea.
That said, it will never happen. But it won't be age that gets in the way.
November 24th, 2013 at 7:37 PM
#1231
Hoke's not getting fired this
Hoke's not getting fired this year, but he's done near irreparable damage to his image. He's lost the confidence of most of the fan base. He's lost his sales pitch of progress, rebuilding, and return to glory. He'll begin next on the short list of hot-seat coaches. Enjoy 2014 Michigan football!
November 24th, 2013 at 7:49 PM
#1232
Not to mention they have
Not to mention they have ruined DG and he is not the same anymore, hopefully his confidence comes back next year but this year he is done IMO
November 24th, 2013 at 7:54 PM
#1233
We don't know if he was ever
We don't know if he was ever that great to begin with. Sample size last year was too small but the one consistent thing from last year to this is he turns the ball over too much and makes some poor decisions. Not saying he can't be good and I agree his confidence is low but who knows what he would've been with whoever at OC.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:12 PM
#1234
Mark Dantonio went 6-7 in Year Three.
TO say that he has done "near irreparable" damage is an over statement.He has tarnished his image, but if he gets UM back to where it should be in 2014 all the damage from this year will disappear.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:36 PM
#1235
I meant that in the sense
I meant that in the sense that he will never repair his image to what it was going into the season. It was inevitable that the Hoke-poops-gold era would end, but I never imagined the pendalum could swing so far so soon.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:50 PM
#1236
If he wins a national title he will be a God in these parts.*
vv
November 24th, 2013 at 10:58 PM
#1237
National Title? NATIONAL
National Title? NATIONAL TITLE?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Let's see Michigan beat Akron and UConn by more than one score before we even mention a National Title! God damn some of you are still living in the past. This is not a 1A program anymore. Look at the record against the powers in the lowly B1G the past 6 years! Maybe we should get so much of a sniff at the B1G Championship before mentioning a National Title.
November 24th, 2013 at 11:40 PM
#1238
Come on!
Unless Hoke finds his Narduzzi on offense, that isn't going to happen. Next years schedule is not overwhelming, but you can feel pretty confident in at least 3 losses (@MSU, @ND, @OSU). I could see them losing to Penn State. I sure wouldn't feel good about a 3 or 4 loss season. If they lose more than that, he would most certainly need to be replaced. The rest of the schedule is horribly weak.
November 25th, 2013 at 5:24 AM
#1239
Doesn't help recruiting
Hopefully, Hoke can keep the verbals!
November 24th, 2013 at 7:45 PM
#1240
IMO at this point anyone will
IMO at this point anyone will be better than Al.. Bring in a new upcoming OC coach who is hungry to succeed and let him do his thing. As far as Les coming to UofM i doubt that will happen, he is getting too old and i can only see him be around for a couple more years then retire..
November 24th, 2013 at 7:56 PM
#1241
As far as I can reason, there are four possibilities
- Entire coaching staff returns. Plausible.
- Entire coaching staff is fired. Not likely.
- Borges is fired, Hoke and Mattison are retained. Plausible.
- Hoke and Borges are fired, Mattison is promoted to Head Coach. Even less likely than #2, above, but I would love it.
The Mad Hatter is probably our best option if #2 occurs, even if Lloyd objects.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:04 PM
#1242
Approximately zero percent
Approximately zero percent chance Mattison becomes the head coach in any other scenario than an interim basis if Brady is let go next Monday.
In other words, will never happen.
November 24th, 2013 at 7:56 PM
#1243
Did anyone read the article?
This was an article by Chantel Jennings on ESPN. She in no way said UM will fire Hoke or that Borges is being rumored to be fired either. All she said was that Hoke will be on the hot seat next year and that Borges is on the hot seat now. The other coaches she's referencing are only what would happen IF Hoke is fired...not that he will be. It's all based on the fan base complaining...that is all. We already know this because we are on here complaining ad nauseum. Nothing will happen to Hoke this year. We can only hope Borges gets canned, but the article is not saying he will, just that he's on the hot seat. Here's the link:
http://espn.go.com/ncf/notebook/_/page/gamedayFinal1124/week-13
November 24th, 2013 at 8:03 PM
#1244
I think you're confusing two different articles.
The paywalled article is the one that's blockquoted in the OP and it was written by Travis Haney.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:21 PM
#1245
Good call
You're right. I read them both one after the other. But, the point is still valid. None of these coaches are saying there is a rumor that Hoke or Borges will be fired. They are just saying it is their opinion that they believe Hoke needs to fire Borges to stay off the hot seat. Hoke isn't going anywhere and there are no rumors on Borges yet either.
November 24th, 2013 at 7:56 PM
#1246
Les, besides the various
Les, besides the various issues he has with people here, is 60 years old. He's almost certainly going to retire from LSU.
I could definitely see Hoke making staff changes, though.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:02 PM
#1247
Dantonio to Texas!!!
Dantonio to Texas!
Dantonio to Texas!!
Dantonio to Texas!!!
(just because I started the rumor doesn't make it not true)
November 24th, 2013 at 8:02 PM
#1248
Not that it would happen, but
Not that it would happen, but would anyone be happy if we threw 10 million at Saban and hired him?
November 24th, 2013 at 8:11 PM
#1249
The rest of the sec.
The rest of the sec.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:12 PM
#1250
I say pay him 15 million, why
I say pay him 15 million, why not?
November 24th, 2013 at 8:12 PM
#1251
I'd be ecstatic
I'd be ecstatic
November 24th, 2013 at 8:20 PM
#1252
it would really burn Sparty's ass if we did that
that alone would be worth it. . .
November 24th, 2013 at 8:21 PM
#1253
In two words
Hell yeah!
November 24th, 2013 at 8:39 PM
#1254
Absofuckinglutely.
We coulda
Absofuckinglutely.
We coulda had Meyer if we let the RR debacle go one more year.
November 24th, 2013 at 10:45 PM
#1255
woooo
November 24th, 2013 at 11:02 PM
#1256
(dry heave)
(dry heave)
November 24th, 2013 at 9:44 PM
#1257
Give him a blank check. Tell
Give him a blank check. Tell him he can write as many zeros as he wants on it, and we'll pay him that, as long as he accepts the head coaching job.
I love Hoke as a person and a representative of our great university, but if Saban came out tomorrow and said he'd like to coach here, I'd be okay with showing Hoke the door. Yes, that's cold and maybe a horrible thing to say, but college football is a business, and if you want the top results, like we all claim to do, you have to pay top dollar for them.
Maybe Hoke can win a national championship one day. But Saban's already won 4, and is about to make it 5. I'll take the proven commodity and undisputed king of college football.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:54 AM
#1258
There's an exchange in a book
There's an exchange in a book I like that has one character offer a check for charity or something and says, "whatever number you write on this check is less than I would have written myself" or something to that effect.
In reality though, do you really think Saban would be able to stop writing zeros long enough to hand the check over?
November 24th, 2013 at 8:04 PM
#1259
Did ESPN hear about most of
Did ESPN hear about most of the UM freshmen transferring to other teams? Sounds like a big story to me.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:10 PM
#1260
Ace Williams is a deranged
Ace Williams is a deranged high school student. That's all you need to know.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:06 PM
#1261
Dantonio to Texas!!!
Dantonio to Texas!
Dantonio to Texas!!
Dantonio to Texas!!!
(just because I started the rumor doesn't make it not true)
November 24th, 2013 at 8:06 PM
#1262
Please God
Bring Miles to Michigan.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:10 PM
#1263
meanwhile down in Nashville
there is a young, tough coach at Vandy who knows how to recruit at a strong academic school, knows how to win big games (beat Georgia and Tenn. this year) and most of all, knows how to win on a BIG stage - the SEC.
He'd look pretty darn good in maize and blue............
November 24th, 2013 at 8:18 PM
#1264
Didn’t we say that about RR?
Anyways, Hoke isn't going anywhere. You also cannot assume success here at UM. Hoke had a difficult rebuild at BSU and did it, yet you want him fired after two mediocre seasons. You and your fellow anti-Hokians lack of patience would make any coach hesitant to come here.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:55 PM
#1265
This isn't Ball State--or
This isn't Ball State--or maybe it is, now. Would OSU or any top notch program accept two mediocre seasons? Remember John Cooper was two years removed from an 11-1 season. Two 4 loss seasons and he got the boot. Look how good of a decision that was...
November 24th, 2013 at 9:04 PM
#1266
OSU did.
Woody lost a third of his games the first three years, about the same as Hoke and in an era of unlimited scholarships when it was easier for the big schools to win big. They only finished ranked once, #17 his second year. And it's not like he had a stellar record coming in--he'd only coached two years at what would now be D1 level.
Then the fourth year they went undefeated, won a Rose Bowl. Hopalong won a Heisman the fifth year. They were probably pretty happy they held their nerve.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:06 PM
#1267
He only talks about the anecdotes
He only talks about the anecdotes that fit his narrative, ie. Dantonio going 6-7 in year three - because we all know the ultimate goal is to be like State, not the OSU's or USC's of the world.
November 25th, 2013 at 2:58 PM
#1268
"Hoke had a difficult rebuild
"Hoke had a difficult rebuild at BSU and did it"
Ball St. under Bill Lynch (Hoke predecessor): 37-53, 41.1%
Ball St. under Brady Hoke: 30-39, 43.4%
Ball St. in 3 years prior to Brady Hoke:
2000: 5-6
2001: 5-6
2002: 6-6
Ball St. under Brady Hoke:
2003: 4-8
2004: 2-9
2005: 4-7
2006: 5-7
2007: 7-6
2008: 12-2
That doesn't look like a "difficult rebuild". That looks like a 5 year run of pretty much exactly what came before under the previous coach, and then one outlier.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:16 PM
#1269
Vandy coach under consideration?
Coach Franklin down at Vandy is a tough SEC coach who knows how to win. His price could be right. Read below:
From ESPN:
"Franklin's pay would place him in the bottom quarter of Southeastern Conference football head coaches. And for 2011, it was less than the amount Vanderbilt reported for Kevin Stalling, the men's basketball coach. "
November 24th, 2013 at 8:20 PM
#1270
Dude, stop.
No, Franklin is not under consideration because Hoke is going nowhere.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:21 PM
#1271
You're entitled to your
You're entitled to your opinion, and your assertion "Hoke is going nowhere" is just that. An opinion. We get it.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:26 PM
#1272
It isn’t an opinion, but fact.
Do you seriously think Hoke is going to be fired?
November 24th, 2013 at 8:35 PM
#1273
I don't, but it's pretty
I don't, but it's pretty stupid to make anything definitive when we still have a potential nuclear event happening on Saturday. There's no reason to believe a mass firing isn't off the table.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:53 PM
#1274
I think it is highly unlikely that Hoke is fired even if OSU
blows UM out. It would have to take a 50-0 type game where the team quits which I do not foresee happening.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:57 PM
#1275
Hoke will not be fired after this year...
but what do you do after 2014? You keep bringing up the fact that Dantonio went 6-7 in year 3. Now aside from the fact that this proves nothing (Nick Saban won the National Championship in his third year, as did Lloyd Carr...), Dantonio also went 11-2 in his fourth year, won the legends division, and nearly made it to the Rose Bowl. Is that what you're predicting for Hoke next year?
Back-to-back 7-6 seasons and 0-4 against MSU/OSU is highly likely, and if that happens, Hoke is toast whether he deserves it or not. A win against OSU this year or a win against MSU/OSU in 2014 could buy him 2015, but how likely is that?
Maybe by the end of 2014 Harbaugh will have won the Super Bowl and will be tired of the NFL. Yup that's the best I've got at this point.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:24 PM
#1276
Texas
My money is on Franklin winding up at Texas
November 24th, 2013 at 8:55 PM
#1277
I do not support getting rid
I do not support getting rid of Brady Hoke, but if we had a head coaching vacancy this would be the first call I would want Brandon to make.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:04 PM
#1278
I'm all for it. I want to win
I'm all for it. I want to win now.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:20 PM
#1279
I agree with jmblue, Miles is
I agree with jmblue, Miles is getting up there in age, makes tons of $$, and is the biggest gig in his state. Highly doubt he is moving north. Gotta believe DB gives Hoke 1-2 more years, perhaps not with Borges though.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:29 PM
#1280
Miles may have made his last move...
...but that doesn't mean he's asked for his last raise.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:33 PM
#1281
John Harbaugh? LOL
He just signed a four-year extension with the Ravens widely reported to pay him $7 million per year. Unless people are fantasizing that he'll take a multi-million dollar pay cut to come to Ann Arbor, David Brandon would have to ante up three times what he's paying Hoke, plus the buyout, plus increased assistant salaries for the guys Harbaugh would want to bring with him.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:56 PM
#1282
Yet another reason to mock chatsports.
Anyone who links to that website should be smack with a salmon.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:01 PM
#1283
Is the money not there? DB
Is the money not there? DB is spending 9.5 million ro renovate the field hockey facility. 25 million on an indoor rowing facility. A competent football coach is an infinitely better use of that money.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:40 PM
#1284
I don't want miles. He seems
I don't want miles. He seems to be a pretty damn good coach but age and the fact he seems to have skeletons in his closet seem to have disaster written all over it.
I think Hoke is safe for one more year. Not sure I like that or not but I don't see Brandon pulling the trigger yet. Now if we get wiped up and down the field against osu then who knows.
I do think if Brandon decided to make a change this year, you only do it if it's one of the harbaughs. Anything else is settling. I don't have reason to think they would come but it would be a grand slam with either one of them. You satisfy the people who want a Michigan man, and more importantly you would get one of the best coaches in football period. A urban Meyer like coach but someone who does it the right way with respect. If we can get either of those two guys, keep hoke and fire Borges on Monday.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:41 PM
#1285
I agree with Borges and Funk
I agree with Borges and Funk getting there walking papers; however, Strength and Conditioning coach Welman needs the axe as well. This team lacks toughness and strength. They can't move the lines of scrimmage which to me indicates lack of strength.
Bring on The Mad Hatter!!!!!! I'm tired of 7-5 or 8-4 seasons.
November 24th, 2013 at 8:55 PM
#1286
You do understand that freshmen and sophomores are not as strong
as juniors and seniors do you? And it takes more than jsut strength to move guys. It takes technique as well which these guys seem to be lacking.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:11 PM
#1287
That is a true statement that
That is a true statement that you always get stronger with age. I strongly disagree with your premiss that a modern day division I S&C program can't add quality size and strength in a year or less.
With the nutrition program that these guys work with, and then getting in the gym one to two extra times a week than the normal three, they should be way, way stronger than they are showing on the field. Regardless, it's time to consider worse case scenarios.
I get the feeling that since we got hit with the over hours situations, that the expectation is the do the minimum or trend close to the rules; rather than what everyone else does, which is more, more and more. Right or wrong, you look and some of the athletes on OSU, MSU, Wisconsin, and every other SEC team, we are no where near bigger, faster or stronger.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:59 PM
#1288
So what is the excuse for
So what is the excuse for Taylor Lewan playing his freshman year?
November 24th, 2013 at 11:32 PM
#1289
He didn't play his freshmen
He didn't play his freshmen year, he redshirted -- that's why he is a 5th year Senior. The devil is in the details.
November 25th, 2013 at 3:48 AM
#1290
Lewan started his redshirt
Lewan started his redshirt freshman year, like Kalis and Magnuson whom are redshirt freshmen as well.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:04 PM
#1291
Serious question
If Borges is fired, then who replaces him? I'm not serious enough a fan to be able to rattle off hot OCs' names. Also, I assume a new OC would have to be able to work with the players in place and in the pipeline (in other words, not a spread guy). So, to the 5000 people who want Al gone, who do you like in his place?
November 24th, 2013 at 9:11 PM
#1292
There have been whole threads
There have been whole threads on this here and at GBMW. The Stanford guy would be a good bet. Honestly, there are dozens of guys out there in OC and positional coach roles that would come in and immediately do better than Borges. Even if he does start making better decisions, he's lost all credibility with players and fans. Unfortunately that never completely comes back.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:14 PM
#1293
Really?
He's lost credibility with which players, and how do we know this?
November 24th, 2013 at 11:46 PM
#1294
i liked your diary post
it was good.
I dont think it is that far out to say that the players have lost faith in borges - you are correct in that we do not know this, but I am not sure that is the right question. Out of the key 20-30 players that play each game (roughly) I dont think it is out of control to say some of the guys are just pissed they are not performing up to percieved standards. I am not sure anyone would be completely happy with how things have transpired
November 25th, 2013 at 12:14 AM
#1295
I suspect you're right--few
I suspect you're right--few if any of the players feel like their performiance is up to snuff, and even the people that knew this year would be rough aren't happy with the experience. I'd be disappointed if I found out otherwise.
But to pretend, without evidence, that this means Borges has lost his half of the team, or there's some sort of insurrection...that's just people yelling crap into the echo chamber. And I'm a little tired of the crap.
If I had to guess something, without any information but just based on the athletes and coaches I've been around, most of the people involved have their finger pointed primarily at themselves. Lewan's pissed at Lewan, Gardner's pissed at Gardner, Funchess is pissed at Funchess, Borges is pissed at Borges, Hoke's mad at Hoke, etc.
When it's the other way, when they're turning on each other, there are signs, like the near-fistfight between the coaches on the Illinois sideline a couple of weeks ago. We're not seeing or hearing any of that. Just the fanbase, but that's what fans do I suppose. It's not like we can blame ourselves.
November 24th, 2013 at 10:00 PM
#1296
Thanks
I thought about Stanford's OC but wonder if he'd prefer to stay there.
I also did search for threads with actual names but could only find one that was 95% jokes. The only serious answers I saw were Minny's and Missouri's OCs. So that's why I asked. I was curious about specific options.
November 24th, 2013 at 10:13 PM
#1297
Alabama's OL coach, Oregon
Alabama's OL coach, Oregon State OC to name a couple more.
November 25th, 2013 at 4:37 AM
#1298
Charlie Taaffe at UCF, could
Charlie Taaffe at UCF, could still coach for a few years
Always have 2 QBs ready. Check out offensive stats from 09 to Present
Rushing stats improve every year, and only slightly dips when star RBs graduate
QBs from 09-Present all improves in TD-INT ratio and completion rates
2 QBs ready also ensures no "unprepared Bellomy" like Nebraska 2012.
For OL coach, look at Adrian Klemm
Similar to us in inexeprience for OLine players in 2013.
Steady rushing and pass protection in SMU and UCLA (also differing style in both schools, shows ability to adapt)
Also a great recruiter, i think named by some sites as best PAC 12 assistant as a recruiter
They need to fire Borges, Jackson, Funk and Ferrigno. Give special teams duty to someone else. Heclinski did quite well recruiting for Michigan and an OK job with receivers. Let him coach the TEs too.
Also need to examine 1. whether there's a need for a QB coach 2. Changes in S&C coach/staff
November 24th, 2013 at 9:08 PM
#1299
For The MGoBlog Suggestion Box
Possible Plan
Don't fire Brady Hoke now under any circumstances short of his having violated the terms of his contract. If Michigan’s offense performs as poorly next Saturday as it has during three of the past four games, even if the defense continues to show sparks of improvement and keeps the final score closer than anticipated:
- Fire Al Borges immediately after The Game
- Designate one assistant as the interim offensive coordinator for the bowl game
- Begin intensive search for new offensive coordinator who’d be available to start work in January and who would have free rein to hire his assistants with reasonable input from Brady Hoke and Greg Mattison
- Evaluate whether a new strength and conditioning coach also might be needed
The Rationale
Michigan’s previous head football coach (a man who gave little concern to how his defenses were run) still might have that job if he’d (a) never traded a competent defensive coordinator for an inept one after one year on the job, (b) fired that inept defensive coordinator after his second year of making the Wolverines’ defense a complete wreck (after the man had done the same when he was head coach and co-defensive coordinator at Syracuse during the previous four seasons) and (c) then agreed to hire a new defensive coordinator who’d be given full control over the hiring of his assistants.
Michigan’s current head football coach (a man who apparently gives little concern to how his offense is run) has the opportunity to avoid making the same mistake that his predecessor made. If Brady Hoke truly is living his “dream job” and “understands Michigan,” then he should be willing to make a decision that will help him keep that job.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:20 PM
#1300
Brady has plenty of input
Brady has plenty of input into the offensive game plan. The issue is, and it is blatantly obvious, is that he thinks we can play like Iowa or Wisconsin right now. Or worse, he is delusional enough to think that we are the Michigan of 1997 every year.
We have a cultural problem of thinking being a football player at Michigan is good enough to win games, and not do what needs to be done behind the scenes. I think as fans we get tired of hearing the coaches sing the gospel, but then the product is soft and underwhelming. I am also tired of every ten years one senior class decides that we need to work hard and just win a la 1997 and 2006. It would be nice to have that mentality every year. If we have a winning tradition, then do it every year not every ten.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:15 PM
#1301
I'm terrified we'll fire
I'm terrified we'll fire Borges...and hire somebody worse (yes, they exist).
November 24th, 2013 at 11:38 PM
#1302
Really?
Who? EDSBS might say Pease, I'd take my chances at this point.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:15 PM
#1303
No way is Hoke gone this
No way is Hoke gone this year. Not after a 70-3 loss to OSU, not after a loss in the Little Caesar's Pizza Bowl vs a MAC school. Brandon isn't going to admit failure that quickly, and obviously he has more insight into the program than anyone here. He can see things we can't, and if he has reason to believe things are moving in the right direction, invisible as they may be to the naked eye, I have to take his word for it. I'm no Hoke apologist, I was never convinced he was a great hire, I just think it would be insane to install a revolving door at Schembechler Hall. I too see some alarming trends, but hey, you've picked your guy, you have to at least let him field a team of his own seasoned players before you render final judgment.
I do think all bets are off with Borges, Funk, and Wellman, however.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:26 PM
#1304
Just sayin...
We're goiing to beat OSU.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:54 PM
#1305
If you are right...
You sir, deserve a raise
November 24th, 2013 at 10:13 PM
#1306
I hope you're
An awesome psychic that is always right
November 24th, 2013 at 10:52 PM
#1307
More delusional than psychic
More delusional than psychic, but I'd rather think positively than give up on the game before the first practice,
November 25th, 2013 at 12:05 AM
#1308
You sound like my nine year
You sound like my nine year old. Saturday urban Meyer will smash us into pieces and that stadium will be full of red clothed, annoying Ohio people that laugh in our faces again. It's time you wake up. It's been too long and nothing's changing. You don't lose to sub par teams in a low tier conference than just wake up one day and beat an elite football team because of some magical rivalry. It's not happening. I'll be there and I'll scream and support the team but in the end I'll close my eyes and walk away like I have almost every time we've played them in the last decade. This is our reality. A lower tier team in a bad conference that gets spat on by it's rivals. You wanna change? Demand one.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:13 AM
#1309
I'm with your 9 year old
Really? You want to give me a hard time for being optimistic?
November 25th, 2013 at 12:58 AM
#1310
I'm sorry. I wanna win too. I
I'm sorry. I wanna win too. I hope we win. Hey we're going to win! Everything's fine! I'll stop posting on here and shut up and in five years we can beat michigan state again and them we will beat OSU and everything will be great. Sorry, I have nothing to be upset about. I'll just cheer for my average team.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:32 PM
#1311
Re: Borges
From speculators lips to God's eyes.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:37 PM
#1312
I do not want Hoke fired. At
I do not want Hoke fired. At least not yet. But even in the situation where he does get fired, James Franklin is probably the first guy I'd want DB to pick up the phone and call. He's taken a traditional scrub Vanderbilt team / SEC doormat and turned them into winners. Even in the games they lose, they're competitive with everyone outside of Alabama. He's a high energy guy who knows how to motivate his players, and I've heard he's a good recruiter. He must be if he's bringing talent into Vanderbilt.
If that doesn't work, I'm okay with pulling the Les Miles card again and seeing what happens there. I doubt he'd want to come, but we might as well try. I just want someone to come in here and win. Someone that can come in here and beat OSU. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say that I'm tired of being their fucking doormat.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:57 PM
#1313
This
Would not be a terrible idea at all. I really like what Franklin's doing at Vandy. With that said, I want Hoke to get ONE MORE year... With no Borges...
November 24th, 2013 at 11:15 PM
#1314
Franklin can get recruits
Franklin can get recruits because its SEC. He cant get those same players here.
November 25th, 2013 at 3:49 AM
#1315
SEC or not
It's still Vandy.
November 25th, 2013 at 2:19 AM
#1316
I agree. I get angry and post
I agree. I get angry and post things that are...the opposite of that during the liveblogs, but I don't think Hoke can or should go at this point. I've definitely lost a good bit of faith in Hoke over the last three months, but I think he can be a good coach here in the long run. He has a Rich Rodriguez problem, however. I'm not sure what the dynamic he has with Al is, but I certainly am under the impression that he spends most of his time on the defense and probably leaves the offense to its own devices.
Can that work? Of course. But it bit Rodriguez badly, and it may prove costly for Hoke. This situation isn't entirely analogous to Rich Rod's, of course. Hoke exerts more influence on our offense than I think Rodriuez did on our defense (we can argue about the details, hypothetical person who disagrees), and I think that to the extent Hoke is involved with the offense, he is a negative influence. Hoke has made it abundantly clear that he does not tolerate the spread (which I think is a silly, stupid position to stake out, but if you're angling to be the knee-jerk rebound coach at Michigan post-Rodriguez, it makes sense. Or he's just a little dumb...neither is especially reassuring). I think in being so blindly dedicated to MANBALL, Hoke is limiting our options and it's costing us.
Ultimately, if Hoke can get rid of Borges and bring in an offensive staff that shows at least reasonable improvement next year, I'll be happy with 9-4 if we don't shit the bed offensively like we have this year. Can we go 9-4 with Borges next year? Sure. But my faith in him is shot; I'm willing to give Brady time but Borges is a problem. Not the only problem, but a big one. Someone can argue that Funk and Gardner and youth are also problems, but I think that those problems can get better. So long as we have Borges, however, I think we'll be saying, "wait until next year, then we'll really see what we've got." And I'm not sure I can deal with that.
November 25th, 2013 at 2:24 AM
#1317
If RR could have kept his hands off the defense...
...he'd probably still be coaching here.
The problem was exactly the opposite. Even though he didn't know very much about that side of the ball, he insisted on dictating scheme and staff to his DC, even to the point of meeting with the position coaches to gameplan behind Shafer's back for the '08 Purdue game.
Can you imagine Hoke holding a meeting with Funk and Hecklinski and Jackson to come up with a game plan, then effectively taking the headset from Borges? That's not a matter of "details", that's 180 degrees from what you've described.
November 24th, 2013 at 9:48 PM
#1318
Hoke most likely not fired
If Hoke's fired, does new coach keep GMatt? Would he stay? It's not worth that potential loss. Fire Al B Sure and perhaps Funk and let's move on. Do it before bowl game. Hecklinski calls the plays in the bowl game. Evaluate him and other candidates.
November 24th, 2013 at 10:13 PM
#1319
I love GMatt but he's not the
I love GMatt but he's not the be all end all. if the situation arises (and I'd love to have him around) there are DCs looking for a change or pay raise out there that would step in and do just fine. I like him but I don't think his staying or leaving should be part of the calculus in the HC decision.
November 24th, 2013 at 11:26 PM
#1320
You should ask the question the other way around
Would Mattison be interested in sticking around if there's a new coach.
He seems to have a loyalty to Brady Hoke. It's one of the main reasons he returned to Michigan.
November 24th, 2013 at 10:56 PM
#1321
There is no way the author knows anything
Between the Fort and the loyalty M has with Hoke and Hike has with Borges this is just a dream from an average M Go fan. Nothing else (sadly :( ).
November 24th, 2013 at 11:01 PM
#1322
I wonder if db would
Make a call to gruden. I doubt he would want to coach college but hey couldn't hurt to talk to him.
November 24th, 2013 at 11:04 PM
#1323
Lmao
It only took this long for someone to say Gruden. Please explain to me why Gruden would want to coach college football when
1. He hasnt been a college coach in 20 years
2. He makes 5 million from espn now
November 24th, 2013 at 11:39 PM
#1324
Legacy
Why Does any coach want to coach anywhere?
November 24th, 2013 at 11:12 PM
#1325
Miles will coach Dallas if
Miles will coach Dallas if they fail again this year. I HOPE he comes home but would be shocked if he were to leave the south as hes very established there and Carr hates him and wil prevent it as will DB who said "over his dead body" referring to Miles. So unless the trustees jettison DB then itll never happen.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:30 AM
#1326
Please Show Link
When did DB say "over his dead body" regarding Miles? and why?
November 25th, 2013 at 1:19 AM
#1327
http://books.google.com/books
November 26th, 2013 at 1:10 AM
#1328
Thanks!
A quote from the book that I found particularly insightful was something to the effect that the head coaches at schools like Michigan, Alabama and Texas are the spiritual leaders at those schools. I believe that is the essense of the current situation. Hoke does not have the gravitas to be regarded in that manner!
I have commented before that I think Hoke seems like a really great guy, but he does not command the respect that a Bo, Saban, and Meyer. Those personalities are bigger than just a coach. They transcend the position.
November 24th, 2013 at 11:24 PM
#1329
Part of this fanbase
got the 'Michigan Man' they deserve. I hope they are miserable people today.
November 24th, 2013 at 11:31 PM
#1330
This is what people wanted.
This is what people wanted. Michigan will have a hard time digging out of this hole. I still don't see Hoke getting rid of Borges. Screw everything.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:23 AM
#1331
I, for one, am ecstatic
I, for one, am ecstatic knowing that we will never go 3-9 or 5-7 again.
November 25th, 2013 at 5:49 AM
#1332
The B1G is a much easier conference
Les knows he'll not have another chance at a NC with LSU. If he left for Michigan, Urban wold be the only one standing in his way. An easy non-conference and conference schedule. Much easier to go undefeated here then at LSU again!
November 24th, 2013 at 11:43 PM
#1333
And my lesbian friend will turn straight,
and go out with me.
>__>
November 24th, 2013 at 11:53 PM
#1334
All this baseless speculation
All this baseless speculation would be laughable if it weren't so sad to see a fanbase grasp at straws like so many in here insist upon doing.
Guys, Brandon is a former Michigan football player, and he is intimately involved in football program. He, of all people, knows EXACTLY what the issues with the program are at this point. He knew what they were before he hired Hoke, and he knew that the effects of the lack luster recruiting would eventually rear up and bite the program. As such, there is NO WAY IN HELL that Hoke's seat is even warm at the moment. Brandon knows that 62% of the players on roster are 1st or 2nd year players, and that 2013 was bound to be a struggle.
As he's been quoted saying, this season -- even with all its offensive issues -- is a few plays away from being a 10-1 season. EVERYONE inside the program knew with out a shadow of a doubt that the 2013 season was likely going to be toughest due to the lack of depth and experience on the OL. Brandon have known about the OL issues since the day he took over the AD's position, and hoke has known since the day he was hired. It's not a mystery why the offense is struggling and why is seems like the QB is regressing. That's why Hoke went out and recruited so many OL in the 2012 and 2013 classes.
Starting true freshmen OL is NEVER a formula for success, and Michigan is doing it because there is NOBODY else on the roster. But they'll be a year older, stronger, and have more experience next year and every year after. Today's pain and struggles will result in future success and joy. Brandon knows this, and as such, I think there is no chance Hoke is going anywhere. Borges and Funk might be fired, but I think the chances of that happening are very slim. I think Jackson retires, that's about it.
November 24th, 2013 at 11:58 PM
#1335
He sounds like a staee fan.
He sounds like a staee fan. "We were ten points away from being 10-2, but we didn't get the lucky bounce so we're 6-6." He made a bad hire now he has to deal with it.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:11 AM
#1336
Two things. You avatar is
Two things. Your avatar is really obnoxious, and make me want to smack that snarky, sarcastic smirk of your face, sorry to say.
Hoke is not a "bad hire." Hoke was hired to bring the Michigan football program up from the lowest point in its 120+ year history. You don't dig yourself out of a hole like that with one shovel load of dirt. It takes time and recruiting, and Hoke's first real class are part of that 62% of the roster that are 1st or 2nd year players. 2013 was always going the worst year of the rebuilding process due to it being that "lag year" in which the bulk of the OL talent was going to be too young and inexperienced to really contribute, but some of them were going to have to because of a lack of depth. Accept it for what it is, understand why it is happening, and move on -- it WILL get better in the very near future.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:56 AM
#1337
You're an idiot an that's not
You're an idiot an that's not a picture of me. Have a nice thanksgiving.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:02 AM
#1338
And It is a bad hire. The guy
And It is a bad hire. The guy didn't even have a winning record. It was a project and the project failed. You wanna defend being mediocre go for it. Saturday when we get smashed it will be on you and the people that support being irrelevant and a home to our rivals.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:10 AM
#1339
Hoke?
Hoke brought BALL FUKKING STATE into the top 20. Then he brought SDSU into relevancy. The losing record is meaningless, it really is.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:24 AM
#1340
The losing record is
The losing record is particularly meaningless because Hoke has a winning record at Michigan.
Is everyone OK?
November 25th, 2013 at 5:58 AM
#1341
Thanks to the cupcakes
That almost became flap jacks. I was surprised by the ND game though! 3-5 in the B1G is not good!
November 26th, 2013 at 8:54 AM
#1342
He could have lost ever game
He could have lost ever game this season and still had an overall winning record at Michigan.
No one is defending this years performance you nitwit.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:03 PM
#1343
When you speak about Hoke not
When you speak about Hoke not having a winning record it displays your ignorance for all to see. He took over a Ball State, a program that was a perenial failure, and lead them to a 12-1 season, a conference Championship, and national ranking. Similarly at SDSU, he lead a basement dweller to a competitive program. Hell, he put a scare into Michigan in the Big House with lowly Ball State. His record reflect a coach that can rebuild programs, which is what he was hired to do at Michigan. You want to crucify him for initially losing at losing programs, yet give him no credit whatsoever for turning them around. That, is idiocy.
Saturday is on me? Are you serious?!? Get a grip man! Michigan was irrelevant before Hoke, remember? Hoke was hired to make Michigan relevant again, remember? But, for people like you, he's not doing it fast enough, so he should be fired, and the coaching revolving door should be installed -- which, if you've not noticed, is a sure fire way to insure that your program remains IRRELEVANT for a while longer.
The project HAS NOT FAILED because the project has a time horizon of longer than three seasons. YOU are the not the one that sets the timing of the rebuild because YOU know nothing about the cycles of college football. A depleted roster, which was the ultimate problem at Michigan, CANNOT be rebuilt in three (really two) recruiting classes. I tried numerous times to detail the "roster issues" but you and your ilk just keep going with the, "excuses...bullshit..." responses. It's NOT bullshit, it's what makes or breaks a college football program.
First you must recruit talent, Hoke is doing that. Secondly, you must RETAIN top talent, and redshirt as many players as possible, Hoke is doing that. That is all we know so far because Hoke's oldest full class are RS Freshmen. Remember 62% of the players on the roster ... ah fuck it, you're not going to listen anyway, and you'll come back with MORE snark and attacks.
November 25th, 2013 at 3:13 PM
#1344
"He took over a Ball State, a
"He took over a Ball State, a program that was a perenial failure,"
No.
Ball St. all time winning %: 52.6
Brady Hoke at Ball St: 43.5%
Ball St. winning % coach before Hoke: 41.1%
"and lead them to a 12-1 season"
Yes.
"a conference Championship"
No.
They lost the conference championship game.
"and national ranking. "
Ball State was not ranked in the final AP or Coaches poll.
November 25th, 2013 at 11:34 AM
#1345
up from the lowest point in its 120+ year history.
So you're saying that 2008-2010 is worse than '34-'35-'36? When we went 1-7, 4-4, and 1-7?
When we were shut out eleven times?
When our cumulative score against MSU was 13-62?
When our cumulative score against Minnesota was 0-100?
When our cumulative score against Ohio State was 0-93?
I have no problem with defending Hoke, and it would be dumb to say that the RR years weren't extremely disappointing.
However, the constant reference to 2008-2010 as the worst years in Michigan football history is nothing less than ignorance of that history.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:09 PM
#1346
Sorry Don, I should have
Sorry Don, I should have said, "up from the lowest point since leather helmets were retired." Please excuse my ignorance of those miserable seasons of '34, '35, and '36 -- they wre just so bad that I blocked them from my memory...Sheesh!
November 25th, 2013 at 12:04 AM
#1347
Enough with this youth
Enough with this youth bullshit, we have played beyond horrible, i dont think i have seen a team play so disoriented and so discombobulated ever. A high school team will do a better job, yes some its youth related but the issues are deeper than that and it starts wit coaching and development.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:16 AM
#1348
That's because you've never
That's because you've never seen a team with the OL depth/talent/experience issues that Team 134 has. These seeds were sown several years ago, and Michigan is having to reap what was sown, no matter how bitter. Thankfully, however, new seeds (and a lot of them) were sown in Hoke's first real class, and in the 2013 class. Those seeds are going to take some time to flower, but we're already seeing some fruits with a true freshman and a RS freshmen starting on the OL. That is so exceedingly rare that when someone calls it "bullshit" or an "excuse" it shows just how little they actually understand about the game of football, and what it takes to build a winning program.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:31 AM
#1349
Sten:
Are you still
Sten:
Are you still supportive of Borges, Funk & Jackson? I also dont want to see anything happen to Hoke but I think those three should be replaced immediately after the season and my fear is Hoke won't.
I'm curious to see if you, Reader71, The Last Hoke & SC are still in the "keep the staff intact" camp and if so, why? (I already Brown Bear wants everybody back) What do you see that makes you think the quality of play calling and overally coaching from our current assistants merits keeping them in tack one more year.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:06 AM
#1350
Before I answer let me say
Before I answer let me say this. I think that changing anyone on the coaching staff (unless they move voluntarily) ALWAYS carries some risks. Further, I think that in the case of rebuilding program (which I think Michigan most emphatically is) continuity of the staff plays a SIGNIFICANT role in the rebuilding effort. How much, that isn't really quantifyable, but it plays enough of a role, IMO, that any change should be undertaken with great trepidation.
Now, there is NO DOUBT in my mind that this season's offensive performance is totally unacceptable. I think Borges knows that he's failed miserably, and that Hoke is not happy with how the offense has performed. That being said, however, I think that Hokes knows that Borges' job is SEVERELY handicapped by near complete inability of the OL to block anything effectively. It's obvious to me that the reason that Borges seems to call the same plays over and over is because those are the ONLY plays that the OL can block with any semblence of quality. I really don't think us fans can understand just how difficult Borges' job has been this season.
However, just because his job has been difficult, doesn't mean that I think he should keep his job. I agree with many of Borges' detractors that he just seems to have a very weird, almost schizophrenic play calling personality. Personally, I think he's lost his edge and gotten "yips" as a play caller. I am not sure that I blame him as what he's been asked to do in since at Michigan is totaly out of his comfort zone. In hindsight, I think what would have been best is to hire a spread OC for the first two seasons, and then bring in a new OC this season when the transitiion to a power scheme is to be made. So, given Borges' age, and the fact that I think these past three seasons have messed with his head, I think he should be let go.
I think Funk is well respected and will prove out to be a very good OL coach, and I think it's time for Jackson to retire. If Hoke comes in an cleans house, it is obvious that he thinks the issue is coaching and although youth is a factor, it could have been overcome by a better staff. If he keeps everyone (which I think is likely) I think he thinks that continuity at this point is more important, and that the youth factor is so significant as to be the ultimate cause of all the offensive struggles.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:17 AM
#1351
Thanks. We agree more than
Thanks. We agree more than we disagree.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:45 AM
#1352
You asked about me, so I'll
You asked about me, so I'll talk about it here.
I don't care on Borges. I never have. I think he's a decent OC. My apologia all season have been about 1) stupid play calling based critiques, and 2) his job being really hard because the line blocks nothing well. I've always maintained that firing him is OK, so long as its for a good reason. This dreadful offense might be enough reason. I don't know. I don't really care either way. I think the next guy will do fine, but I think Borges will do fine if retained because the line will be better.
On position coaches, I generally refuse to take an opinion since none of us have ever seen a practice. That aside, I would not miss Funk. I am a believer that coaching/playing at Michigan is a privilege, and fielding the worst line in Michigan history might be enough to get that privilege revoked. This is the reason why I turned on Coach Rod.
On the other hand, I have seen Fred Jackson coach. He is a great coach and a great teacher. He's a great guy to boot, and a hell of a recruiter. Fred Jackson should leave when he is ready to go.
Really long story semi-short: I don't care if anyone is fired. I would not miss Borges or Funk at all. Although I think firing them might improve the team, I think the team will improve no matter what. I think it would be unfair to fire Borges without him ever being able to call his offense, and I think it would be unfair to fire Funk when he has to coach a bunch of freshmen. But those are the breaks. Historically bad output probably makes a firing necessary, despite the historically bad line situation that isn't their fault. Coaching is a tough business.
November 25th, 2013 at 4:04 AM
#1353
I agree with this.. Was also
I agree with this.. Was also reading that in michigan history before this year we had only started 8 freshman on the O-Line ever? I was shocked to hear that, and im pretty sure most of them were from recent history.. RR and Hoke regime..
We have also played the most freshman ever in michigan history this year.. and most freshman to ever start.. I thought that was done during the RR years, but i guess we broke that record.
November 25th, 2013 at 9:10 AM
#1354
Thank you. Your opinion
Thank you. Your opinion carries a lot of weight (with me anyway...lol) cause I know you played. And you'rre right - I've never seen a practice under Hoke (saw a couple of Moeller's though) so I have no clue what they are doing.
By the way - there's a name for OC - Moeller!
November 26th, 2013 at 9:00 AM
#1355
Gary or Andy?
Also, please
Gary or Andy?
Also, please keep your tickets if you can afford it. You don't want to not have tickets the next time we beat Ohio to send ourselves to the B1G championship.
November 25th, 2013 at 2:26 AM
#1356
Thank You
I was hoping I wasn't the only one who wanted to fire Borges but keep Funk. I think that is the smartest option. Funk is a light's out recruiter.
Step 1. Retire Jackson. Fire Borges. Dan Heck*** becomes the running back coach and recruiting coordinator (he is currently recruiting coordinater and WR coach) . Hire a QB/WR coach.
Step 2. ????
Step 3. Profit (aka B1G championship)
November 25th, 2013 at 1:57 PM
#1357
I disagree with letting Borges go at the end of this season
For the various reasons you've sited Hoke and Borges were aware that this season was likely to be the toughest in the transition. There is little doubt that the decision to bite the bullet in 2013 was jointly made by both Hoke and Borges. It is also higly probable that Hoke discussed this with Brandon as well.
It is also likely that Hoke and Borges talked about the difficulty of this transition when Borges agreed to take the OC job and move to Ann Arbor. I find it very difficult to believe that Borges would have accepted the job without assurances from Hoke (and probably DB) that his job would not rest on the first real year of installing the new offense. I also doubt that Hoke would have hired any OC unless he had the necessary support to protect his hire during that season.
If you think that Borges needs to go, you're indirectly calling for Hoke to go, and DB as well. Michigan has retained these coaches to lead the program through a complete transition in philosophy. As you point out, many aspects of that transition seems to be going pretty well. The task is far from over and the timeline has years to go.
Yes this season could have gone better. It also could have gone worse. Like it or not, 7- (4 or 5) with the challenges facing this team is NOT a fireable year.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:35 AM
#1358
I dont understand the "youth"
I dont understand the "youth" logic because there are a lot of teams out there playing freshmen. Plus its not like the whole offense is made of freshmen. It is pretty obvious that DB only cares to make money and sell the M brand PERIOD. OSU on the other side has not skipped a bit since god knows when. Lets take the latest, Tressel comes in and kicks our ass for a decade, he leaves and some goofball takes over who had a 6-6 seasona and OSU doesnt give even give him a second chance so they go and get Meyer who has been undefeated since he got there... They know how to win and they care how they win. Now days we compare ourselves to MSU thats how bad it has gotten and people are hoping Narduzzi leaves next year.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:39 AM
#1359
"...there are a lot of teams
"...there are a lot of teams out there playing freshmen."
Not on the OL, and most certainly not in the interior OL. Michigan is starting a SO former walk-on, a RS FR, and a TRUE FR in the interior.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:00 AM
#1360
Ten out of 125 teams have a
Ten out of 125 teams have a true freshman starting on the interior. Most of those teams are very, very bad. It's not quite clear to me whether they're bad because of the freshmen or because if you're in that situation there's probably a lot of other stuff going wrong too, and over a fairly long period of time. Either something went wrong with recruiting three or four years ago, or you've got retention problems. Or both.
Three out of 125 teams have no one older than a redshirt sophomore starting on the interior. Two of those teams are suffering from recent coaching changes away from a disastrous regime, the other is Purdue, whose issues are a bit older than just Hope. It's not something you do by choice.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:58 AM
#1361
See UCLA
They have started a true freshman at right tackle to go along with 2 RS freshman in the interior line. So yes other teams can start freshman offensive lineman and be successful with them.
November 25th, 2013 at 8:06 AM
#1362
By Choice.
Let's cut the
By Choice.
Let's cut the shit.
Michigan has two RS-Freshmen who were Top 200 recruits. Is that really that much worse than teams throwing RS-Sophomores out there who were 2/3 star players or walk-ons? Of course not. Only here at Michigan is 208 YPG and 10.5 PPG over the last four games acceptable because of youth.
If could still have Jack Miller (RS-Sophomore) at center.
They also have Braden (physically imposing 3.5 star RS-Freshman).
If the interior line is SO IMPORTANT, why didn't they move Schofield go guard, put Magnuson at RT (where he'll probably end up anyway) and roll with that line?
Magnuson - Schofield - Miller/Glasgow - Kalis - Lewan.
Everything the offensive staff has done this year has been a failure.
Again, the last four games in regulation:
208 YPG
10.5 PPG.
That's all personnel baby. We have it so rough at Michigan.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:56 AM
#1363
Well please explain
If it is just young offensive lineman please explain UCLA's success playing 3 freshman 1 sophomore and a junior. They were able to provide lanes for a running game and adequate pass protection. Other teams are able to overcome youth. It is a coaches job to put the players they have in a position to succeed and Al Borges is failing to do that.
November 25th, 2013 at 3:18 PM
#1364
"That's because you've never
"That's because you've never seen a team with the OL depth/talent/experience issues that Team 134 has."
No, I've watched UCLA a couple times this year.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:51 AM
#1365
Thank you
I too am tired of the "youth" excuse, I remember watching UCLA a few games ago when the announcer mentioned they were playing 3 freshman, 1 sophomore and 1 junior on their oline and they actually got a push and allowed for a running game and provided pass protection.
November 25th, 2013 at 3:35 AM
#1366
Well, we did those things
Well, we did those things against Northwestern as well. And we protected well against Indiana. And we crushed Central. And Notre Dame. And Minnesota.
The point is that one game sample sizes are dumb.
UCLA is better than us on offense. But not by much. 3 PPG. One more win.
November 25th, 2013 at 7:33 AM
#1367
You are dumb. I feel like
You are dumb. I feel like people like you need to be called out.
This is Michigan's offensive output the last 4 games in regulation. Try to find a relevant team that is this bad. I even looked at our 2008 offense. They never had a stretch like this:
208 Yards per game.
10.5 points per game.
Three games under 200 yards of offense.
Trying to compare what we are seeing here to anything else is the highest order of idiocy. Which makes sense, because you are an idiot.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:04 AM
#1368
We might be a few points from
We might be a few points from a 10-2 record, but when you factor in squeakers against Akron, UConn, Northwestern and Indiana, we're awful close to not even being bowl eligible, either.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:48 AM
#1369
Exactly
If Brandon is honest he'd be able to see that we're a heck of a lot closer to 5-7 and than 10-1.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:07 AM
#1370
DB is Jerry Jones. The
DB is Jerry Jones. The problem starts at the top.
November 24th, 2013 at 11:58 PM
#1371
Simple Solution:
1) Fire Al Borges after the upcoming probable loss to OSU, and whatever bowlgame we end up playing around the holidays. DB has a talk with Hoke about expectations. Find a new OC, who knows something about the spread offense and west coast offense.
2) If Hoke does not improve on current record next year, then promote Greg Mattison to Head Coach and let him pick his assistant coaches for OC and DC. Give him 2-3 years to stabilize the program and win the division, which will include OSU beginning in 2014.
3) If Michigan Football continues to go downhill, then buyout Les Miles.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:00 AM
#1372
Yes and Les Miles will be 75
Yes and Les Miles will be 75 yrs old by then
November 25th, 2013 at 12:06 AM
#1373
I heard Chip Kelly
Wants to take a pay cut to come be our offensive coordinator.
November 25th, 2013 at 12:30 AM
#1374
Fuck it. If we going big get
Fuck it. If we going big get Belichek.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:18 AM
#1375
True dat.
True dat.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:21 AM
#1376
Ok buddy; this was maybe
Ok buddy; this was maybe funny once. Now GTFO.
November 25th, 2013 at 1:52 AM
#1377
Fall Guy
David Brandon won't fire Brady Hoke. Not because, as I believe, he shouldn't, but because it will make Brandon look bad. Besides, even David Brandon isn't stupid and arrogant enough to risk losing key pieces of a great 2014 recruiting class.
My guess is that Borges will be sacrificed to the altar of MANBALL by Brandon. Then, he will go somewhere that doesn't have the David Brandon MANBALL mandate and rebuild what was a good reputation.
The MANBALL mandate reminds me of the old joke told in the Henny Youngman era. Michigan is like the guy who keeps hitting himself in the head with a hammer because it "feels so good when he stops." Except that Michigan hasn't stopped.
Fuck.
November 25th, 2013 at 2:00 AM
#1378
I'm disappointed that nobody here has said
that Michigan is John Harbaugh's dream job. C'mon, people, step it up.
November 25th, 2013 at 2:16 AM
#1379
Michigan is John Harbaugh's
Michigan is John Harbaugh's dream job.
Maybe if we say it enough times it will come true.
I still think i'd take Jim, but John could be a major coup.
November 25th, 2013 at 2:14 AM
#1380
Yeah I'm delusional, but
Yeah I'm delusional, but would a win over Ohio be enough for the anti-Borges crowd to back off, or would that just be worse because of what might have been, etc?
November 25th, 2013 at 3:19 AM
#1381
I would seriously appreciate
I would seriously appreciate a win over Ohio State though it is highly unlikely. Borges has lost me with some of the awful statistics this offense is putting up. They are putting up a historically bad season just like our DBs and the defense did under RichRod. Our response was to throw the baby out with the bath water and fire RichRod. Unfortunately for him he went 3-9 his first season and had no political capital to fallback on when the results did not come in Year 3 that we wanted.
Hoke had that capital but it is nearing and probably at an end. It is very close to put up or shutup time. I think if our program throws a "hail mary", getting rid of most of the offensive coaches and finding replacements with proven track records, the fan base will at least fill like it is being heard and taken seriously.
These results this year are not acceptable. Again historically bad performance that we saw under the last regime that repeatedly used the same excuse, youth, that we did not tolerate. The current regime should be held to the same standard.
I do not want to get rid of Hoke but he is at a crossroads and if he does not get assistants on the offensive side of the ball that can help him win 2015 may be the end of this experiment barring a complete collapse next year.
November 25th, 2013 at 8:13 AM
#1382
No, because again, you are an
No, because again, you are an idiot.
208 yards per game.
10.5 points per game.
That is Borges' offense over four games in regulation. And he needed a miracle from the FG unit to get there.
Here's a comparison: Imagine a DC towards the end of the season finishing up with this stretch over four games:
496.7 YPG allowed. 43.7 PPG allowed. That's Greg Robinson in 2010 over the last four games. And I cheated and included Illinois, because that defense actually had a decent game against a really bad Purdue offense.
You can say you're arguing "dumb arguments" against playcalling, but let's be real with one another: You're mad because you thought this staff was the perfect fit and you can't handle the fact that its clearly flawed. So you hide behind your little facade of "Oh, I'm only here to reason logically about playcalling" but in reality you're here because you supported Borges and now can't come to terms with the idea that you were so incredibly wrong.
You and yours put more words on this board than any other 10 posters combined, all doing the same thing: Defending Al Borges. Congrats, you want the Greg Robinson of the offense to stick around.
November 25th, 2013 at 10:54 AM
#1383
Could you try to make a point
Could you try to make a point without ad hominem attacks on people or are you incapable?
November 25th, 2013 at 4:03 PM
#1384
He's apparently
He's apparently incapable of rational thought or civility.
November 25th, 2013 at 3:43 AM
#1385
Stupid?
Stupid?
November 25th, 2013 at 4:08 AM
#1386
There are examples of Saban
There are examples of Saban grabbing his head in frustration, Harbaugh looking so confused you'd wonder if he just saw a UFO, Bill Belichick looking as clueless as he always does, etc. But I'm on a phone and this image search sucks. I'll keep going if you want. I just think if a picture is worth 1000 words, most of them are "durr".
November 25th, 2013 at 3:46 AM
#1387
Well, I don't think Hoke will be on the hot seat next season
But if he loses another 4 games or more next season, I think 2015 will be his hot seat year and if he fails to win 10 games, I could see Miles wanting to head to Michigan.
Miles really wanted to come in ''08 but the only problem was he was never offered. That was all a hoax. LC vetoed that move from the start. So all that Bill Martin missing the phone call stuff while sailing was all fluff. May be Miles tried to call him when he heard reports that Michigan wanted him but Martin did not and never intended to answer his call, even if he was on his sail boat!
Miles was 2nd on my list of coaches for RR replacement. I think if DB offered he would have jumped. DB wanted Brady Hoke.
Jim Harbaugh
Less Miles.
I think he would do great here. I think Brady can still do a great job though not seeing much progress in the team has me concerned but it is way too early to pull the plug on him and his staff. He wll decide he wants to keep his coaches or not. I don't think DB is going to make Hoke fire Borges. But if he doesn't see improvement next season then panic may set in for Hoke. I'm still a 100 percent Hoke supporter for the next 2 years.
November 25th, 2013 at 6:44 AM
#1388
LOL Reader
+1 The only place Coach Hoke or Borges are getting fired is on this Blog. This site has more trolls, its hard to have a rational coversation here any more. I can't wait till after the Game is over everyone on this site will act like they were supposed to win and say surely now they must fire these coaches.. Who honestly thought (before Saturdays first half) UM was going to win in Iowa. All I heard is how they were going to lose and now that they have its again time to replace the coaches whole sale. ITS NOT HAPPENING get over yourselves, Get a clue this team will be playing for the B1G next year that is happening. GO BLUE!!!!!
November 25th, 2013 at 7:27 AM
#1389
Other
I'd say everyone thought Iowa would be tough. Correct.
I don't think people expected to lose to Nebraska and or PSU and to look like dogshit in almost every other game this year.
Michigan's play has put Hoke on the hotseat for next year. 10 or 11 losses in 2 years, you don't deserve to use assistants to save your ass.
I feel sorry for the guy, he wasn't dealt a good hand or a QB but this is a disaster.
November 25th, 2013 at 7:39 AM
#1390
FWIW
Les just turned 60 so he has a few years to turn this around.
He brings Cam with him, Cam has head coaching experience in college and the pros.
I just want a damn strong team.
November 25th, 2013 at 10:34 AM
#1391
The trustees aren't going to
The trustees aren't going to force Dave Brandon's resignation, and as long as Brandon is here Miles is not.
Why are we even talking about this?
November 25th, 2013 at 10:47 AM
#1392
Post
This stuff as been going on for a while whether it's the HC or the OC.
The board is already ruined so what the hell.
There is already another post at the top. It's never going to end.
November 25th, 2013 at 9:35 AM
#1393
So,so many...
trtolls have infiltrated MGoBlog...smh!!
November 25th, 2013 at 10:31 AM
#1394
Nevermind the next paragraph
Nevermind the next paragraph in the article that says:
These last two might not be as likely as some of the others, but even if they don't take place, we're suddenly gearing up for what could be a very active coaching carousel season.
I fully expect to see Borges still with UM next year. I'm not saying he should be gone, I don't know enough to have an intelligent position on that. But I'd say next year is a make-or-break year for him.
November 25th, 2013 at 10:58 AM
#1395
I am ambivalent to whether or
I am ambivalent to whether or not Borges stays. I don't know enough inside the program like Hoke and Dave Brandon do, so I will trust their judgment. Retaining Borges though automatically puts him on the hottest of hot seats and could potentially damage Hoke's credibility as a HC.
Whatever, I'm just going to cheer for Michigan.
November 25th, 2013 at 2:16 PM
#1396
Things I believe I believe
Miles wanted to come here in 2008. He acted and talked like a man that had been in contact with us and wanted to coach here. He was derailed by his own team's success and by internal politics at Michigan and LSU that forced his hand and made him sign that contract extension if he wanted to coach his own team in the title game.
Harbaugh wanted to come here in 2011. Right up to the point where the 49ers offered him crazy money to be an NFL coach right in his backyard. He would have been a dominant coach for us, but he would have always been an NFL flight risk. Perhaps some day he will tire of the endless grind of the NFL where you never can hold a talent advantage over your opponents for long and the players seem to tune your message out quickly and decide to come back to the college game. At that point we would be idiotic not to grab him for the rest of his career.
What should we do now? I don't know. But watching our tire-fire of an offense tells me we need to do something, because we just suck.
November 25th, 2013 at 3:23 PM
#1397
The major issue with the
The major issue with the offense is that we have seen no improvement from week one to this week. We have lineman that still cannot pick up a blitz or a stunt. The being young is understandale, but not seeing any improvment is unacceptable. Hokes future rides on what he does with Borges, if he keeps him and next year is not a major improvement I think he his gone. IF he replaces him and show some improvement, he wil get another year.
