Thanks. We agree more than we disagree.
no, YOU'RE off topic
Thanks. We agree more than we disagree.
You asked about me, so I'll talk about it here.
I don't care on Borges. I never have. I think he's a decent OC. My apologia all season have been about 1) stupid play calling based critiques, and 2) his job being really hard because the line blocks nothing well. I've always maintained that firing him is OK, so long as its for a good reason. This dreadful offense might be enough reason. I don't know. I don't really care either way. I think the next guy will do fine, but I think Borges will do fine if retained because the line will be better.
On position coaches, I generally refuse to take an opinion since none of us have ever seen a practice. That aside, I would not miss Funk. I am a believer that coaching/playing at Michigan is a privilege, and fielding the worst line in Michigan history might be enough to get that privilege revoked. This is the reason why I turned on Coach Rod.
On the other hand, I have seen Fred Jackson coach. He is a great coach and a great teacher. He's a great guy to boot, and a hell of a recruiter. Fred Jackson should leave when he is ready to go.
Really long story semi-short: I don't care if anyone is fired. I would not miss Borges or Funk at all. Although I think firing them might improve the team, I think the team will improve no matter what. I think it would be unfair to fire Borges without him ever being able to call his offense, and I think it would be unfair to fire Funk when he has to coach a bunch of freshmen. But those are the breaks. Historically bad output probably makes a firing necessary, despite the historically bad line situation that isn't their fault. Coaching is a tough business.
I agree with this.. Was also reading that in michigan history before this year we had only started 8 freshman on the O-Line ever? I was shocked to hear that, and im pretty sure most of them were from recent history.. RR and Hoke regime..
We have also played the most freshman ever in michigan history this year.. and most freshman to ever start.. I thought that was done during the RR years, but i guess we broke that record.
Thank you. Your opinion carries a lot of weight (with me anyway...lol) cause I know you played. And you'rre right - I've never seen a practice under Hoke (saw a couple of Moeller's though) so I have no clue what they are doing.
By the way - there's a name for OC - Moeller!
Gary or Andy?
Also, please keep your tickets if you can afford it. You don't want to not have tickets the next time we beat Ohio to send ourselves to the B1G championship.
I was hoping I wasn't the only one who wanted to fire Borges but keep Funk. I think that is the smartest option. Funk is a light's out recruiter.
Step 1. Retire Jackson. Fire Borges. Dan Heck*** becomes the running back coach and recruiting coordinator (he is currently recruiting coordinater and WR coach) . Hire a QB/WR coach.
Step 2. ????
Step 3. Profit (aka B1G championship)
For the various reasons you've sited Hoke and Borges were aware that this season was likely to be the toughest in the transition. There is little doubt that the decision to bite the bullet in 2013 was jointly made by both Hoke and Borges. It is also higly probable that Hoke discussed this with Brandon as well.
It is also likely that Hoke and Borges talked about the difficulty of this transition when Borges agreed to take the OC job and move to Ann Arbor. I find it very difficult to believe that Borges would have accepted the job without assurances from Hoke (and probably DB) that his job would not rest on the first real year of installing the new offense. I also doubt that Hoke would have hired any OC unless he had the necessary support to protect his hire during that season.
If you think that Borges needs to go, you're indirectly calling for Hoke to go, and DB as well. Michigan has retained these coaches to lead the program through a complete transition in philosophy. As you point out, many aspects of that transition seems to be going pretty well. The task is far from over and the timeline has years to go.
Yes this season could have gone better. It also could have gone worse. Like it or not, 7- (4 or 5) with the challenges facing this team is NOT a fireable year.
I dont understand the "youth" logic because there are a lot of teams out there playing freshmen. Plus its not like the whole offense is made of freshmen. It is pretty obvious that DB only cares to make money and sell the M brand PERIOD. OSU on the other side has not skipped a bit since god knows when. Lets take the latest, Tressel comes in and kicks our ass for a decade, he leaves and some goofball takes over who had a 6-6 seasona and OSU doesnt give even give him a second chance so they go and get Meyer who has been undefeated since he got there... They know how to win and they care how they win. Now days we compare ourselves to MSU thats how bad it has gotten and people are hoping Narduzzi leaves next year.
"...there are a lot of teams out there playing freshmen."
Not on the OL, and most certainly not in the interior OL. Michigan is starting a SO former walk-on, a RS FR, and a TRUE FR in the interior.
Ten out of 125 teams have a true freshman starting on the interior. Most of those teams are very, very bad. It's not quite clear to me whether they're bad because of the freshmen or because if you're in that situation there's probably a lot of other stuff going wrong too, and over a fairly long period of time. Either something went wrong with recruiting three or four years ago, or you've got retention problems. Or both.
Three out of 125 teams have no one older than a redshirt sophomore starting on the interior. Two of those teams are suffering from recent coaching changes away from a disastrous regime, the other is Purdue, whose issues are a bit older than just Hope. It's not something you do by choice.
They have started a true freshman at right tackle to go along with 2 RS freshman in the interior line. So yes other teams can start freshman offensive lineman and be successful with them.
Let's cut the shit.
Michigan has two RS-Freshmen who were Top 200 recruits. Is that really that much worse than teams throwing RS-Sophomores out there who were 2/3 star players or walk-ons? Of course not. Only here at Michigan is 208 YPG and 10.5 PPG over the last four games acceptable because of youth.
If could still have Jack Miller (RS-Sophomore) at center.
They also have Braden (physically imposing 3.5 star RS-Freshman).
If the interior line is SO IMPORTANT, why didn't they move Schofield go guard, put Magnuson at RT (where he'll probably end up anyway) and roll with that line?
Magnuson - Schofield - Miller/Glasgow - Kalis - Lewan.
Everything the offensive staff has done this year has been a failure.
Again, the last four games in regulation:
That's all personnel baby. We have it so rough at Michigan.
If it is just young offensive lineman please explain UCLA's success playing 3 freshman 1 sophomore and a junior. They were able to provide lanes for a running game and adequate pass protection. Other teams are able to overcome youth. It is a coaches job to put the players they have in a position to succeed and Al Borges is failing to do that.
"That's because you've never seen a team with the OL depth/talent/experience issues that Team 134 has."
No, I've watched UCLA a couple times this year.
I too am tired of the "youth" excuse, I remember watching UCLA a few games ago when the announcer mentioned they were playing 3 freshman, 1 sophomore and 1 junior on their oline and they actually got a push and allowed for a running game and provided pass protection.
Well, we did those things against Northwestern as well. And we protected well against Indiana. And we crushed Central. And Notre Dame. And Minnesota.
The point is that one game sample sizes are dumb.
UCLA is better than us on offense. But not by much. 3 PPG. One more win.
You are dumb. I feel like people like you need to be called out.
This is Michigan's offensive output the last 4 games in regulation. Try to find a relevant team that is this bad. I even looked at our 2008 offense. They never had a stretch like this:
208 Yards per game.
10.5 points per game.
Three games under 200 yards of offense.
Trying to compare what we are seeing here to anything else is the highest order of idiocy. Which makes sense, because you are an idiot.
We might be a few points from a 10-2 record, but when you factor in squeakers against Akron, UConn, Northwestern and Indiana, we're awful close to not even being bowl eligible, either.
If Brandon is honest he'd be able to see that we're a heck of a lot closer to 5-7 and than 10-1.
DB is Jerry Jones. The problem starts at the top.
1) Fire Al Borges after the upcoming probable loss to OSU, and whatever bowlgame we end up playing around the holidays. DB has a talk with Hoke about expectations. Find a new OC, who knows something about the spread offense and west coast offense.
2) If Hoke does not improve on current record next year, then promote Greg Mattison to Head Coach and let him pick his assistant coaches for OC and DC. Give him 2-3 years to stabilize the program and win the division, which will include OSU beginning in 2014.
3) If Michigan Football continues to go downhill, then buyout Les Miles.
Yes and Les Miles will be 75 yrs old by then
Wants to take a pay cut to come be our offensive coordinator.
Fuck it. If we going big get Belichek.
Ok buddy; this was maybe funny once. Now GTFO.
David Brandon won't fire Brady Hoke. Not because, as I believe, he shouldn't, but because it will make Brandon look bad. Besides, even David Brandon isn't stupid and arrogant enough to risk losing key pieces of a great 2014 recruiting class.
My guess is that Borges will be sacrificed to the altar of MANBALL by Brandon. Then, he will go somewhere that doesn't have the David Brandon MANBALL mandate and rebuild what was a good reputation.
The MANBALL mandate reminds me of the old joke told in the Henny Youngman era. Michigan is like the guy who keeps hitting himself in the head with a hammer because it "feels so good when he stops." Except that Michigan hasn't stopped.
that Michigan is John Harbaugh's dream job. C'mon, people, step it up.
Michigan is John Harbaugh's dream job.
Maybe if we say it enough times it will come true.
I still think i'd take Jim, but John could be a major coup.
Yeah I'm delusional, but would a win over Ohio be enough for the anti-Borges crowd to back off, or would that just be worse because of what might have been, etc?
I would seriously appreciate a win over Ohio State though it is highly unlikely. Borges has lost me with some of the awful statistics this offense is putting up. They are putting up a historically bad season just like our DBs and the defense did under RichRod. Our response was to throw the baby out with the bath water and fire RichRod. Unfortunately for him he went 3-9 his first season and had no political capital to fallback on when the results did not come in Year 3 that we wanted.
Hoke had that capital but it is nearing and probably at an end. It is very close to put up or shutup time. I think if our program throws a "hail mary", getting rid of most of the offensive coaches and finding replacements with proven track records, the fan base will at least fill like it is being heard and taken seriously.
These results this year are not acceptable. Again historically bad performance that we saw under the last regime that repeatedly used the same excuse, youth, that we did not tolerate. The current regime should be held to the same standard.
I do not want to get rid of Hoke but he is at a crossroads and if he does not get assistants on the offensive side of the ball that can help him win 2015 may be the end of this experiment barring a complete collapse next year.
No, because again, you are an idiot.
208 yards per game.
10.5 points per game.
That is Borges' offense over four games in regulation. And he needed a miracle from the FG unit to get there.
Here's a comparison: Imagine a DC towards the end of the season finishing up with this stretch over four games:
496.7 YPG allowed. 43.7 PPG allowed. That's Greg Robinson in 2010 over the last four games. And I cheated and included Illinois, because that defense actually had a decent game against a really bad Purdue offense.
You can say you're arguing "dumb arguments" against playcalling, but let's be real with one another: You're mad because you thought this staff was the perfect fit and you can't handle the fact that its clearly flawed. So you hide behind your little facade of "Oh, I'm only here to reason logically about playcalling" but in reality you're here because you supported Borges and now can't come to terms with the idea that you were so incredibly wrong.
You and yours put more words on this board than any other 10 posters combined, all doing the same thing: Defending Al Borges. Congrats, you want the Greg Robinson of the offense to stick around.
Could you try to make a point without ad hominem attacks on people or are you incapable?
He's apparently incapable of rational thought or civility.
There are examples of Saban grabbing his head in frustration, Harbaugh looking so confused you'd wonder if he just saw a UFO, Bill Belichick looking as clueless as he always does, etc. But I'm on a phone and this image search sucks. I'll keep going if you want. I just think if a picture is worth 1000 words, most of them are "durr".
But if he loses another 4 games or more next season, I think 2015 will be his hot seat year and if he fails to win 10 games, I could see Miles wanting to head to Michigan.
Miles really wanted to come in ''08 but the only problem was he was never offered. That was all a hoax. LC vetoed that move from the start. So all that Bill Martin missing the phone call stuff while sailing was all fluff. May be Miles tried to call him when he heard reports that Michigan wanted him but Martin did not and never intended to answer his call, even if he was on his sail boat!
Miles was 2nd on my list of coaches for RR replacement. I think if DB offered he would have jumped. DB wanted Brady Hoke.
I think he would do great here. I think Brady can still do a great job though not seeing much progress in the team has me concerned but it is way too early to pull the plug on him and his staff. He wll decide he wants to keep his coaches or not. I don't think DB is going to make Hoke fire Borges. But if he doesn't see improvement next season then panic may set in for Hoke. I'm still a 100 percent Hoke supporter for the next 2 years.
+1 The only place Coach Hoke or Borges are getting fired is on this Blog. This site has more trolls, its hard to have a rational coversation here any more. I can't wait till after the Game is over everyone on this site will act like they were supposed to win and say surely now they must fire these coaches.. Who honestly thought (before Saturdays first half) UM was going to win in Iowa. All I heard is how they were going to lose and now that they have its again time to replace the coaches whole sale. ITS NOT HAPPENING get over yourselves, Get a clue this team will be playing for the B1G next year that is happening. GO BLUE!!!!!
I'd say everyone thought Iowa would be tough. Correct.
I don't think people expected to lose to Nebraska and or PSU and to look like dogshit in almost every other game this year.
Michigan's play has put Hoke on the hotseat for next year. 10 or 11 losses in 2 years, you don't deserve to use assistants to save your ass.
I feel sorry for the guy, he wasn't dealt a good hand or a QB but this is a disaster.
Les just turned 60 so he has a few years to turn this around.
He brings Cam with him, Cam has head coaching experience in college and the pros.
I just want a damn strong team.
The trustees aren't going to force Dave Brandon's resignation, and as long as Brandon is here Miles is not.
Why are we even talking about this?
This stuff as been going on for a while whether it's the HC or the OC.
The board is already ruined so what the hell.
There is already another post at the top. It's never going to end.
trtolls have infiltrated MGoBlog...smh!!
Nevermind the next paragraph in the article that says:
These last two might not be as likely as some of the others, but even if they don't take place, we're suddenly gearing up for what could be a very active coaching carousel season.
I fully expect to see Borges still with UM next year. I'm not saying he should be gone, I don't know enough to have an intelligent position on that. But I'd say next year is a make-or-break year for him.
I am ambivalent to whether or not Borges stays. I don't know enough inside the program like Hoke and Dave Brandon do, so I will trust their judgment. Retaining Borges though automatically puts him on the hottest of hot seats and could potentially damage Hoke's credibility as a HC.
Whatever, I'm just going to cheer for Michigan.
Miles wanted to come here in 2008. He acted and talked like a man that had been in contact with us and wanted to coach here. He was derailed by his own team's success and by internal politics at Michigan and LSU that forced his hand and made him sign that contract extension if he wanted to coach his own team in the title game.
Harbaugh wanted to come here in 2011. Right up to the point where the 49ers offered him crazy money to be an NFL coach right in his backyard. He would have been a dominant coach for us, but he would have always been an NFL flight risk. Perhaps some day he will tire of the endless grind of the NFL where you never can hold a talent advantage over your opponents for long and the players seem to tune your message out quickly and decide to come back to the college game. At that point we would be idiotic not to grab him for the rest of his career.
What should we do now? I don't know. But watching our tire-fire of an offense tells me we need to do something, because we just suck.
The major issue with the offense is that we have seen no improvement from week one to this week. We have lineman that still cannot pick up a blitz or a stunt. The being young is understandale, but not seeing any improvment is unacceptable. Hokes future rides on what he does with Borges, if he keeps him and next year is not a major improvement I think he his gone. IF he replaces him and show some improvement, he wil get another year.